14:10:12 RRSAgent has joined #forms 14:10:12 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/04-forms-irc 14:10:20 rrsagent, make log public 14:10:54 Meeting: Forms WG FtF Raleigh NC USA, Day 1 14:11:00 Chair: John Boyer 14:11:22 Steven-eee has joined #forms 14:12:05 leigh, xmpp not xml 14:12:45 Yes, but they bill it in the article as "a generalized XML routing system" so they know it's not just free chat. 14:14:01 markbirbeck has joined #forms 14:15:00 xmpp is even used in some esb implementations as a messaging protocol 14:15:20 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Agenda_Feb._4%2C_2008 14:15:33 John_Boyer has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Agenda_Feb._4%2C_2008 14:19:50 scribe: CharlieW 14:20:38 Topic: Default trigger 14:21:33 John: continuing from Friday's discussion, try to get to high priorities for 1.2 14:21:37 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Agenda_Feb._4%2C_2008 14:21:52 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Default_trigger 14:22:07 Zakim, call Forms-f2f 14:22:07 ok, shepazu; the call is being made 14:22:08 markbirbeck has left #forms 14:22:08 +Forms 14:22:09 John: added some more explanation to the wiki 14:22:15 markbirbeck has joined #forms 14:22:15 markbirbeck has left #forms 14:22:23 John: with examples for defaulting behavior 14:22:55 markbirbeck has joined #forms 14:23:18 John: based on Mark's comments that a group might have several inputs and DOMActivate one the event will bubble to group level 14:23:34 John: we might capture that event and reflect it back to the default submission control in that group 14:23:41 Steven has joined #forms 14:23:43 John: which would then of course cause another round of bubbling 14:23:50 John: in an infinite loop 14:24:18 John: so we don't have a reasonable way to generalize a UI control as default to be activated from other controls in a group 14:24:43 John: rather than dispatch, if you do a send you don't get a loop 14:24:48 Charlie: why is this? 14:25:18 Nick: if you dispatch the event to the action you don't get a problem 14:25:26 John: unless the trigger does a stoppropagage 14:25:33 Nick: you can use your own event 14:25:42 John: not generalizeable 14:26:03 John: if you actually press the trigger as a user, you'll get a DOMActivate 14:26:23 John: but as the default control, use a *different* event -- this seems wierd to do twice 14:27:34 Nick: you can code the action to fire only on the custom event and it will work in both cases 14:27:58 Mark: we want a convenient authoring notation 14:28:21 Mark: and we haven't been precise about which events are generated from each control... 14:28:43 John: up to now we have no exceptions to events based on target object -- don't modify XML events 14:29:10 Mark: doesn't break XML events to spec out the behavior for stop propagation etc by control 14:29:32 Mark: e.g. for submit behavior 14:30:04 John: but in general for all triggers would be hard to say they stop propagation 14:30:32 Mark: could define new markup for trigger that captures this behavior 14:30:45 John: we still have a problem just to define default behavior for triggering 14:30:55 John: in 1.1 now 14:31:15 John: you're suggesting that unless we add more markup, we won't have a good solution to default triggers 14:31:20 Mark: yes, but we should do that anyway 14:32:07 John: supposing we do that (tidy up DOMActivate story)...result might be we'd be able to create a default action or UI control in a group using some elaborate pile of markup but it would work 14:32:32 John: I'm wondering suppose we do this, could we then see how to encode an ease of authoring shortcut to default triggers 14:32:48 Mark: shorthand would be a new attribute on trigger or submit, i'm the default 14:32:54 John: that's what I was hoping for 14:33:06 Mark: but we should do the tidy-up firsthand 14:33:47 s/english/English 14:33:58 john: proposal is to solve the default problem in two phases -- 14:34:06 John: get markup precision (cleanup) 14:34:18 John: phase two is to create the short-hand, along lines of default attribute 14:34:48 Is the goal to have a default submission for a form or a default action or control for a group? 14:35:09 Mark: XML Events 2 has an action to stop propagation 14:35:19 Nick: if you have that, does our current markup work? 14:35:45 Mark: yes, but it would be awkward to code 14:35:50 John: that's the XML Events 2 advantage 14:35:59 Nick: but then you could do it with our markup 14:36:04 it would require XML Events 2 14:36:46 Nick: there are use cases where you want to propagate DOMActivate 14:37:09 John: you'd have to put stoppropagate on every trigger in the group 14:37:29 Mark: i don't see use cases with handler both on the trigger and you want to bubble 14:37:48 Nick: default actions for all triggers 14:37:59 Steven: i've needed it once for value-changed, but not DOMActivate 14:38:22 Mark: but trigger is a funny case 14:38:46 Mark: always follows same pattern, trigger ev:event="DOMActivate"...you've said this twice in effect 14:39:38 Nick: but then you'd have trouble controlling whether to stop propagation explicitly 14:40:03 Mark: better inside the trigger to set data up, then do a send 14:40:22 Mark: better to do both in the same block rather than depending on another handler working together 14:41:35 Mark: could have a designated "handler" for when the trigger is actually pressed 14:42:03 Mark: e.g. onActivate as a child of trigger 14:42:58 John: is anybody willing to champion this? carry it forward to authoring shorthand too... 14:44:07 John: sign me up for 1.2 14:44:55 Solve default trigger problem for 1.2 by coming up with better DOMActivate behavior and then creating the ease of authoring shorthand 14:48:36 ACTION: John_Boyer to solve default trigger problem for 1.2 by coming up with better DOMActivate behavior and then creating the ease of authoring shorthand 14:48:36 Sorry, couldn't find user - John_Boyer 14:49:24 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Put_ref_or_context_on_action_element 14:49:40 Topic: Put ref or context on action element 14:49:54 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Put_ref_or_context_on_action_element 14:50:12 John: in order to set context for a repeated set of actions, avoiding need to code it on each action 14:50:25 Mark: is this different from context everywhere? 14:50:43 Nick: i wrote some spec for context on bind 14:50:58 John: but i thought we weren't doing this, rather make child elements out of calculate, readonly, etc and put context there 14:51:14 John: i wrote this up in an email 14:51:47 John: back to this item, regardless of context everywhere (there was concern in 1.1 about doing this)... 14:52:11 John: was concern that a global context would be hard to understand -- too powerful 14:52:20 Mark: in 1.1 i think that was fair 14:52:35 Mark: if some elements support it and some don't that's perhaps more confusing 14:53:07 Steven: and the code says it explicitly 14:53:33 john: i like generally putting context everywhere 14:53:54 Steven: my experience is doing it partly, we miss good usecases 14:54:11 Steven: if it's harmless, we should put it everywhere 14:54:24 John: could be confusing if you expect it to work, and it's missing somewhere 14:54:41 John: we've seen this in practice 14:54:44 Uli: what about repeat? 14:54:55 John: repeat is perhaps the most important target 14:55:43 Mark: so there's a good consistency, model attribute, maybe instance attribute, ref, context 14:55:54 Mark: they all work the same way all the way through 14:56:03 John: could be defined once in the spec 14:56:44 John: one perhaps confusing thing is we're not saying what happens to the insides of a repeat 14:56:56 John: does expressing the context attribute cause a change to the context size and position 14:57:24 Mark: if you say ref is shorthand for context=x, ref=. 14:57:34 Mark: then context means same as ref without binding aspect for events 14:57:46 Mark: ref is shorthand for both 14:58:00 John: so yes it does reset position and size 14:58:08 John: which appears to make sense 14:58:42 I.e., we should 'read history backwards', so that is a shorthand for and then write up @context accordingly. 14:58:51 John: within UI binding you lose track of which row you're on if you can't call position and size 14:59:15 John: if you have an input inside a repeat then the ref attribute during evaluation you can invoke position and size functions 14:59:25 John: to figure out what row you're on and how but the containing repeat is 14:59:43 John: whereas with context attribute you lose this by the time you evaluate the ref...still have it for context 14:59:48 Mark: so it's not backwards compatible 14:59:58 John: but it'd be ok if you move the expression to context 15:01:37 Nick: ... 15:01:42 John: not a problem 15:04:10 John: anybody interested in championing putting context everywhere and removing it as special attribute? 15:04:21 Leigh: so what does context on instance do? 15:04:29 John: nothing 15:04:32 Leigh: ok 15:04:51 John: so we're being imprecise...put context everywhere where we can currently put nodeset or single node binding 15:05:19 john: those sections of chapter 3...where we'd list context attribute 15:05:45 John: amend 7.2, insert/delete, 15:05:55 Mark: would be easier to make all of those attribute to apply everywhere 15:06:19 Mark: so why not put them on model, would set context for nested handlers 15:06:22 John: grrrr 15:06:33 John: but with nested models might make sense... 15:07:03 Mark: almost like context is implied on the model, on submission context already has implied first instance 15:07:35 John: there are in fact only a few elements that don't have some form of binding 15:07:44 John: and allow them to still set a context 15:07:46 rrsagent, make minutes 15:07:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/04-forms-minutes.html Steven 15:08:25 Nick: what about host language elements? 15:09:06 John: that seems to be a separate problem, we haven't address well...applying xforms UI bindings on host language elements 15:09:17 Present: Charlie, Doug Schepers - W3C, Uli, Steven, Mark B, John B, Keith, Nick 15:09:18 John: would seem to require global namespace versions of our attributes 15:09:33 John: e.g. putting ref on svg elements, rather than xf:ref 15:09:33 Present+Leigh 15:11:50 John: concern about putting context everywhere was more about being toward the end of doing 1.1 15:11:57 John: rather than a concern in principle 15:12:09 john: it's now in the list of 1.2 possible features 15:12:33 John: so we could pick it up and move it forward 15:12:41 Uli: i can do this 15:13:16 ACTION: Uli to work on context "pretty much everywhere (see the minutes) 15:13:16 Sorry, couldn't find user - Uli 15:14:00 rrsagent, make minutes 15:14:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/04-forms-minutes.html Steven 15:14:34 hand 15:15:06 shorthand 15:15:34 firsthand 15:15:36 Zakim, q? 15:15:36 I see Steven, short, first on the speaker queue 15:17:19 you've got to hand it to zakim, that that is a really interesting bug 15:17:26 q= 15:17:33 queue= 15:18:09 hand it to zakim that he says the funniest things 15:18:26 hand it to that bot he has interesting bugs 15:18:40 you've got to hand it to zakim 15:21:13 hand it to zakim 15:21:19 hand it to him 15:21:37 the bot knows no shorthand 15:21:50 to the bot knows no shorthand 15:22:52 handy 15:23:02 handsome 15:23:13 handler 15:23:14 unhand me! 15:23:14 a glass of shandy 15:23:29 secondhand 15:24:32 q- 15:24:35 Topic: Proposal to let value override single node binding on output 15:24:38 q- second 15:24:51 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/%40value_override_single_node_binding_on_output 15:25:17 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/%40value_override_single_node_binding_on_output 15:25:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2006Aug/0009.html 15:26:41 John: when you use ref now it ignores the value 15:26:59 John: when you want the ref to get the MIPs but override the value from the ref with the value xpath 15:27:07 Leigh: seems like a hack to me, why not use XBL? 15:27:10 John: say more... 15:27:17 Steven: may not have XBL 15:27:47 Mark: when doing RDFa, found it's easier to define how all attributes work together, rather than overrides etc etc 15:28:01 Mark: example seems nice 15:28:32 Leigh: so approaching the same result but from different use case? 15:29:12 Leigh: applying behavior generally 15:29:17 Mark: yes, makes rules uniform 15:29:27 John: so add value to input? 15:29:30 Mark: no, don't add value 15:29:46 Mark: take Uli's context example, do something like this for value/ref 15:30:02 Leigh: i could see adding value to this story with context/ref 15:30:13 Leigh: just worried about doing this one example as a special case 15:30:40 Mark: agree with that 15:31:18 Leigh: if there's a separate reason for doing this, ok...but this specific example is not compelling on its own 15:31:49 John: but we are still only talking about value on output...not general case 15:31:55 John: where else is value used? 15:32:35 Leigh: following this specific use case could get into too many special cases 15:32:45 John: there are other cases, for example value inside item 15:33:02 Leigh: can you put value on label? 15:33:09 John: no, but output inside label with a value 15:34:35 Mark: agree with Leigh...this is looking for a formatting type thing... 15:34:45 Mark: but i'm interested in the consistency of our attribute combinations 15:35:06 Leigh: we should do it if there are reasons beyond this case 15:35:30 John: there are authoring convenience issues...wrapping a group around output is not convenient 15:35:56 Leigh: repeat with group to get relevance loses context 15:36:04 John: lose position and size 15:36:15 John: our new context attribute doesn't fix that 15:36:36 Mark: it would if ref were on the same level as context 15:36:50 John: context already means something other than that for insert/delete in 1.1 15:38:13 Mark: this is the result of not doing context everywhere at first 15:38:20 Mark: consistently 15:38:34 John: seemed to be needed to control behavior of attributes on that element, as well as children 15:39:30 John: seems consensus is to not accept this as a special case 15:39:41 Mark: i like the general issue it raises, but deal with it consistently 15:41:23 Mark: could do this by putting a label with value under output 15:41:30 John: group trick would be just as good 15:41:37 Mark: but then handlers have to go on group 15:42:43 Leigh: the point of this proposal is that he'd like it to be a single control for styling...doing a group makes this hard 15:43:10 John: i'm still hearing we should not do this now, put in bucket for potential later issues... 15:43:32 Regrets: Mark S, Erik, Sebastian, Roger 15:43:56 John: just feel that value attribute is used in too many different ways to easily create the general solution 15:44:10 Mark: but we don't need to go there, just where ref and value are on same element 15:44:14 John: eg. setvalue 15:46:40 RESOLUTION: table putting value and ref together to later issue 15:46:55 John: do we need to respond by mail... 15:47:24 Doug: yes 15:48:31 John: we could put this into the general case of formatting issues... 15:49:00 http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#ui-selection-commonelems-value 15:52:29 John: do we want to consider better support in XForms 2.0 for formatting values? 15:52:35 seems like a host language/skinning issue 15:53:01 John: might require knowledge of the application context 15:53:23 Mark: there's no standard way of doing this 15:53:33 Steven: CSS isn't quite strong enough, should we do this or somewhere else? 15:53:37 Leigh: e.g. XBL 15:54:36 Mark: there are lots of platform-specific ways to do this, won't be interoperable 15:55:45 Steven: should be class="currency" then the formatting layer takes over... 15:56:16 Doug: could provide a service to convert to the desired currency... 15:56:41 Steven: would help in adapting to locale and user...e.g. Euros vs Dollars 15:57:27 Mark: could just open an issue in the wiki and work on it there 15:57:43 Keith: doesn't XSL formatting objects help here>? 15:58:13 Mark: all we need is an attribute the formats the output 15:58:21 s/the/that 15:58:49 Steven: it's an issue, even if XForms isn't the right layer to address it...we should ack the issue 15:59:22 Mark: there seems to be a functional issue too...controlling the precision that stuff gets into the data layer 16:01:13 seems like controlling transforms from data layer to UI is separate problem from concrete presentation styling 16:03:02 Steven: seems like it's value-add for user agents to do extra processing for known data types, not all platforms might be able to do this 16:03:18 Steven: nothing prevents you from having an input control that knows it's an integer-only 16:03:57 John: have created an entry in wiki for considering formatting for UI controls, and have added this issue to that page 16:11:12 scribe: wellsk 16:15:42 Starting back 16:15:49 unl has joined #forms 16:16:10 John: other 1.2 possible features 16:16:40 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Create_Node 16:17:01 John: can't create node out of thin air 16:17:17 Mark: make part of insert element 16:17:17 Topic: Create Node capability 16:17:25 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Agenda_Feb._4%2C_2008 16:17:45 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Create_Node 16:19:58 Mark: recreating xaml here, express attribute or express element 16:20:52 Mark: if generalize would it need value element, origin element, origin element with value, origin element with children 16:21:09 Mark: origin element with ref 16:21:20 Nick: like a nodeset 16:21:48 John: wouldn't use nodeset 16:22:02 Charlie: shallow vs deep in subtree 16:22:32 John: Create Node, here is name, here is node -- only thing missing right now 16:22:49 Leigh: element and attribute from xslt and nest them to make trees 16:23:15 Charlie: not recreate DOM interface 16:23:43 John: not sure we need this 16:24:16 Mark: ability to compartentalize, template, model for templates, reuse them 16:24:54 Nick: from xslt, if know name - make subtree with dynamic and static names 16:25:05 nick: not just use element 16:25:07 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Create_Node 16:25:41 John: insertion and setting of value 16:25:56 John: if name of element could be dynamically specified? 16:26:15 literal 16:26:22 John: use literal value (string) of create element 16:26:42 Mark: attribute called value or content 16:26:54 John: children or attributes of this element 16:27:15 Mark: if xpath don't need children 16:27:35 123in my namespace is literal 16:27:36 Mark: create a dynamic element like xslt 16:28:32 Mark: transform action, previously discussed with David L. 16:28:50 John: have to have xslt processor 16:28:58 John: not good for phone people 16:29:25 Nick: need to create subtrees, usually a subtree not just one element 16:29:31 s/previously discussed with David L./previously proposed by David L. on exforms./ 16:30:48 John: 1.2 to facilitate authoring, is this much to ask? 16:31:04 Nick: solve it in complete package not simple one 16:31:18 John: action to fix simple cases 16:31:30 John: with action to fix in 2.0 16:32:02 Nick: import xforms element, not allow subtrees to be created 16:32:11 Leigh: what's problem with subtrees 16:32:56 Leigh: use value element and single node bindings 16:33:22 John: Nick has been saying to drive data for name of the element 16:33:27 16:33:54 16:34:07 Nick: not use element 16:34:18 Mark: why new create when we have insert 16:35:07 Nick: add origin child of insert and add arbitrary elements, to create dynamic attributes 16:35:54 John: Why not add origin child element to insert, come up to actions with well-known patterns 16:36:09 Nick: need general solution with simplier form 16:36:37 John: allow to control names of elements 16:36:51 John: question of spelling insert or create 16:37:17 Mark: setvalue instead of just a string, set value of XML 16:37:32 Mark: value is of type XML 16:37:59 Mark: if string value is an element add XML 16:39:05 Mark: instead of string value, John 16:39:45 John: value is synonymous with string value 16:40:20 Mark: value could be xml content 16:41:24 John: interpretation of value has been equal to string, not content 16:41:46 Mark: interpretation doesn't have to be string 16:42:10 Mark: what do you mean by value, doesn't mean a string necessarily 16:42:55 John: can't calculate arbitrary xml 16:43:22 Mark: not disagreing, did not see value is perceived only as a string 16:43:43 John: call it setcontent 16:44:00 John: as opposed to setvalue 16:44:37 Mark: processor to figure out rebuild flag if xml content 16:45:17 John: the value attribute converts to string 16:45:40 Nick: value as renedered by form control 16:46:52 John: insert always sets the rebuild flag 16:47:05 John: is setcontent reasonable 16:47:10 Mark: i don't mind 16:47:22 copy? 16:47:55 Nick: origin child of insert? 16:48:28 John: a new action with added intelligence 16:49:05 Mark: are situations where don't need rebuild 16:49:26 Nick: Are spelling out in spec ? 16:50:04 Nick: if implementation decides not necessary to do rebuilds, inconsistent behavior. 16:50:22 Nick: do something other than caceling 16:50:34 s/caceling/canceling/ 16:51:12 John: insert by nature of adding origin to insert, insert could be intelligent to do rebuild too 16:51:26 John: setcontent as a ease of authoring 16:51:40 Nick: to champion this 16:52:24 rrsagent, here? 16:52:24 See http://www.w3.org/2008/02/04-forms-irc#T16-52-24 16:52:27 Nick: will change the 1.2 features list wording of create 16:53:04 Steven: this points into log 16:53:17 Nick: wants to point to minutes 16:55:37 time for lunch 16:57:29 -Leigh_Klotz 16:58:57 klotz has joined #forms 17:06:01 disconnecting the lone participant, Forms, in Team_(forms)14:01Z 17:06:03 Team_(forms)14:01Z has ended 17:06:04 Attendees were Leigh_Klotz, Forms 17:25:12 Zakim has left #forms 17:39:47 ebruchez has joined #forms 17:50:26 markbirbeck has joined #forms 17:55:37 Zakim has joined #forms 17:55:44 zakim, hello 17:55:44 I don't understand 'hello', Steven 17:55:55 unl has joined #forms 17:56:03 zakim, reserved now? 17:56:03 on Mon Feb 4 12:56:00 2008 I see 20 reserved [72 available], 5 ports 30 minutes later [87 available], and 5 ports 60 minutes later [87 available] 18:00:43 zakim, room for 4 for 300 mins? 18:00:45 ok, Steven-eee; conference Team_(forms)18:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 300 minutes until 2300Z 18:01:05 zakim, dial forms-FTF 18:01:05 I am sorry, Steven-eee; I do not know a number for forms-FTF 18:01:19 Forms-f2f 18:01:33 zakim, dial Forms-f2f 18:01:33 ok, Steven-eee; the call is being made 18:01:34 Team_(forms)18:00Z has now started 18:01:34 +Forms 18:02:10 CharlieW has joined #forms 18:02:10 zakim, drop Forms 18:02:10 Forms is being disconnected 18:02:12 Team_(forms)18:00Z has ended 18:02:13 Attendees were Forms 18:02:20 zakim, dial Forms-f2f 18:02:20 ok, Steven-eee; the call is being made 18:02:21 Team_(forms)18:00Z has now started 18:02:22 +Forms 18:02:39 re from Doug: Zakim, call Forms-f2f 18:03:13 zakim, drop forms 18:03:13 Forms is being disconnected 18:03:15 Team_(forms)18:00Z has ended 18:03:16 Attendees were Forms 18:03:21 zakim, dial Forms-f2f 18:03:21 ok, Steven-eee; the call is being made 18:03:22 Team_(forms)18:00Z has now started 18:03:23 +Forms 18:06:14 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Create_Node 18:08:11 Leigh, are you dialed back yet? 18:09:27 klotz 18:09:35 zakim, who is here? 18:09:35 On the phone I see Forms 18:09:36 On IRC I see CharlieW, unl, Zakim, markbirbeck, ebruchez, klotz, Steven, Steven-eee, RRSAgent, John_Boyer, nick, wellsk, trackbot-ng 18:11:05 zakim, code? 18:11:05 the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), wellsk 18:11:05 zakim, code? 18:11:07 the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), steeeven 18:13:14 steeeven has left #forms 18:14:25