IRC log of owl on 2008-01-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #owl
15:01:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/28-owl-irc
15:01:31 [IanH]
what is the access code?
15:01:41 [alanr_]
zakim, code?
15:01:42 [pfps]
the usual owlwg
15:02:01 [pfps]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:39 [alanr_]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:52 [alanr_]
zakim, this is owlwg
15:03:07 [alanr_]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:14 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #owl
15:03:30 [alanr_]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:33 [alanr_]
q?
15:03:40 [pfps]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:46 [Zakim]
sorry, alanr_, I don't know what conference this is
15:03:58 [Zakim]
sorry, pfps, I don't know what conference this is
15:04:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
15:04:11 [pfps]
zakim, this is owlwg
15:04:34 [Zakim]
ok, pfps; that matches SW_OWL()10:00AM
15:04:44 [pfps]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.301.975.aaaa, Evan_Wallace, ??P12, ??P1, Elisa_Kendall, ??P26
15:05:50 [IanH]
I didn't see an ??Px when I joined so don't know how to tell zakim who I am
15:05:56 [pfps]
bijan? deb? jim?
15:06:13 [pfps]
no regrets from jim, I think
15:06:22 [IanH]
How do I raise my hand?
15:06:33 [pfps]
bijan was sick last week - he hasn't been sending email today, to he might be sick again
15:07:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.608.aabb
15:07:36 [alanr_]
41# to "raise your hand"
15:07:52 [IanH]
zakim, ??P26 is IanH
15:07:52 [Zakim]
+IanH; got it
15:07:53 [ewallace]
The 301 num is probably Conrad
15:07:57 [IanH]
ack IanH
15:08:02 [IanH]
ack ??P26
15:08:04 [alanr_]
zakim, who is here?
15:08:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.301.975.aaaa, Evan_Wallace, ??P12, ??P1, Elisa_Kendall, IanH, +1.518.608.aabb
15:08:06 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
15:08:11 [Conrad]
I'm (301) 975-3818
15:08:23 [pfps]
zakim, ??p12 is me
15:08:23 [Zakim]
+pfps; got it
15:08:23 [alanr_]
zakim, 3818 is Conrad
15:08:26 [Zakim]
sorry, alanr_, I do not recognize a party named '3818'
15:08:34 [pfps]
q- ??P12
15:08:46 [alanr_]
zakim, aaaa is Conrad
15:08:46 [Zakim]
+Conrad; got it
15:08:58 [alanr_]
zakim, who is here?
15:08:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Conrad, Evan_Wallace, pfps, ??P1, Elisa_Kendall, IanH (muted), +1.518.608.aabb
15:09:00 [IanH]
Bijan not in office -- trying home
15:09:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
15:09:21 [alanr_]
zakim, aabb is Deb
15:09:21 [Zakim]
+Deb; got it
15:09:31 [alanr_]
zakim, who is here?
15:09:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Conrad, Evan_Wallace, pfps, ??P1, Elisa_Kendall, IanH (muted), Deb
15:09:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
15:10:55 [IanH]
Tracked down Bijan -- he is on his way!
15:12:08 [Zakim]
+??P38
15:12:19 [bijan]
bijan has joined #owl
15:12:35 [bijan]
zakim, who is here?
15:12:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Conrad, Evan_Wallace, pfps (muted), ??P1, Elisa_Kendall, IanH (muted), Deb, ??P38
15:12:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bijan, Zakim, RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
15:12:47 [IanH]
zakim, ??P38 is bijan
15:12:47 [Zakim]
+bijan; got it
15:12:49 [bijan]
zakim, ??P38
15:12:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P38', bijan
15:13:04 [ewallace]
Hi Bijan.
15:13:23 [bijan]
Hi, ewallace
15:13:28 [IanH]
I don't know how this jar person is, but I guess that they shouldn't be on the call?
15:13:42 [bijan]
Jonathan Rees
15:13:51 [bijan]
Who's with alan, I believe
15:13:58 [IanH]
OK - sorry!
15:15:29 [Zakim]
-IanH
15:15:40 [pfps]
scribe?
15:16:01 [bijan]
"Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG)
15:16:02 [bijan]
The most complete overview
15:16:02 [bijan]
"
15:16:12 [IanH]
Skype dropped me -- back soon!
15:16:33 [pfps]
ScribeNick: pfps
15:16:43 [dlm]
dlm has joined #owl
15:16:46 [pfps]
Elisa: twice as many overviews as primers
15:16:52 [pfps]
Bijan: of what sort?
15:17:00 [pfps]
Elisa: not necessarily rec track
15:17:16 [pfps]
Elisa: overview - .....
15:17:17 [jar]
jar = Jonathan Rees of Science Commons. Alan asked me to help out so I'm a WG member. I'm not on the call, just on irc.
15:17:40 [pfps]
Elisa: primer - longer document - some insight - not for experts
15:17:58 [pfps]
Elisa: quick start guide - pointers, a little bit of stuff - that's it
15:18:31 [pfps]
Elisa: short is needed
15:18:40 [bijan]
q+
15:18:45 [alanr_]
q+
15:19:50 [pfps]
Bijan: guide goals are - short, entry point
15:19:59 [pfps]
Bijan: seems to align with Elisa's point
15:20:12 [pfps]
Bijan: longer guide is not necessary
15:20:21 [pfps]
Bijan: home page can serve as entry point
15:20:58 [pfps]
BIjan: inter doc pointers are very useful
15:21:09 [pfps]
Bijan: multiple documents are their own load
15:21:21 [Zakim]
+??P26
15:21:31 [IanH]
zakim, ??P26 is IanH
15:21:31 [Zakim]
+IanH; got it
15:21:35 [bijan]
ack me
15:21:36 [pfps]
Bijan: home page can play role of entry point
15:22:41 [pfps]
Alan: Guide = Primer - narrative story
15:23:40 [pfps]
Alan: missing from Overview - small orientation document, delta from previous
15:24:26 [ewallace]
I am against tath
15:24:33 [pfps]
Alan: Can we merge reference, syntax, and semantics?
15:25:39 [Conrad]
I thought Jim H was against that. I am also. The reference is supposed to be easy to use. Having a swtich is effectively different documents.
15:26:17 [pfps]
Alan: merge reference and syntax - i.e., no separate 'reference'
15:26:48 [Conrad]
We should distinguish folding from what the user sees.
15:26:57 [pfps]
Bijan: there is little information hiding needed - only reorganizaion
15:27:15 [Conrad]
Folding effectively produces separate documents, which is more what I'd like to see.
15:27:29 [alanr_]
chat by talking, not in irc, please
15:27:33 [alanr_]
q?
15:27:37 [alanr_]
ack alanr_
15:28:21 [alanr_]
elisa suggesting "fold out" as overview. More than links to document. Summary of features of the language
15:28:33 [pfps]
it would be nice to have Elisa's methodology on overview vs primer in the minutes
15:28:55 [pfps]
Elisa: overview = "fold out" document
15:29:29 [bijan]
What?
15:29:33 [alanr_]
will ask
15:29:34 [pfps]
Elisa: guide has to have a story
15:29:38 [pfps]
q+
15:29:49 [pfps]
Elisa: issues with wine as an example ontology
15:30:15 [pfps]
Elisa: also guidance on how to do things
15:31:22 [pfps]
Pfps: primer has a story
15:31:49 [pfps]
Elisa: guide also has an application - gives people a feeling of how to use an ontology
15:31:50 [alanr_]
elisa: Some code and suggestions to run themselves as addition to primer
15:31:52 [pfps]
q-
15:32:32 [pfps]
Topic: Primer
15:33:11 [Zakim]
-Elisa_Kendall
15:33:40 [pfps]
q+
15:34:33 [alanr_]
Bijan: Detailed comments not necessarily useful here, as this is first draft
15:34:46 [pfps]
Bijan: not interested (right now) in detailed comments
15:34:49 [alanr_]
Bijan: Proposes that overview and guide can be covered by this document
15:34:54 [pfps]
Bijan: primer is first draft
15:35:06 [pfps]
Bijan: primer is supposed to cover overview and guide
15:35:39 [alanr_]
Bijan: To the degree that it can cover both overview/guide would like to hear people's comments
15:36:02 [alanr_]
Peter: Direction should be clear. Better direction than guide+overview of old
15:36:52 [bijan]
+1 to introduction
15:36:53 [pfps]
Evan: I like primer - it is an introduction
15:36:54 [alanr_]
Evan: Primer is an "introduction"
15:37:15 [pfps]
Evan: fundamental tension between overview and guide - can there be one document
15:37:31 [pfps]
Evan: we may not need a long guide
15:37:46 [pfps]
Evan: ... what do we want to accomplish with UFD?
15:38:08 [pfps]
Evan: I would go for reference and introduction
15:38:25 [pfps]
Evan: also use cases - but this is not necessarily UF
15:38:49 [bijan]
I want to 1) not turn people off OWL, 2) pull people into OWL, 3) leave them unconfused on key point, 4) help them to make sound decisions
15:38:50 [pfps]
Evan: Primer is better introduction than Overview + Guide
15:39:28 [pfps]
Alan: to meet charter we need to show that our documents meet the goals
15:39:59 [pfps]
Bijan: what is needed - better replacements for old docs or meeting the deliverables
15:40:11 [pfps]
Conrad: want intro & reference
15:40:23 [pfps]
Conrad: also want guide
15:40:38 [pfps]
Conrad: upgrading existing makes more sense
15:41:04 [pfps]
Conrad: want to draw in software community into OWL - so emphasize differences
15:41:14 [bijan]
+1 to pulling in software folks and making them unerstand how OWL is different
15:41:51 [pfps]
Conrad: guide is longer (and reference is also)
15:42:40 [pfps]
Alan: primer is a slightly longer document
15:43:17 [pfps]
Bijan: length per se is not the goal
15:43:35 [dlm]
possibly consider comprehensive as a replacement for longer
15:44:48 [pfps]
Conrad: different readers - "executives", ... - need different levels of explanation
15:45:00 [alanr_]
q?
15:45:07 [dlm]
+q
15:45:20 [pfps]
Bijan: what about comprehensiveness
15:46:21 [bijan]
q+
15:46:22 [pfps]
Deborah: users search in guide for constructors
15:46:41 [alanr_]
ack dlm
15:46:45 [alanr_]
ack bijan
15:47:00 [pfps]
Bijan: users use guide as reference?
15:47:05 [alanr_]
+1 - sounds like deb description is reference
15:47:17 [pfps]
Bijan: if reference was better organized then it might serve the same purpose
15:47:50 [alanr_]
q+
15:47:58 [pfps]
Deborah: users use guide as [cookbook] when they can't hack the references
15:48:05 [IanH]
q+
15:48:29 [pfps]
Deborah: that's why I agree that there is a tension between overview and guide
15:48:49 [pfps]
Deborah: I thought that primer would be comprehensive for constructors
15:48:50 [bijan]
q+
15:48:51 [pfps]
q+
15:48:59 [alanr_]
ack alanr
15:49:25 [bijan]
+1
15:49:43 [pfps]
Alan: comprehensiveness in tension with narrative?
15:50:02 [pfps]
Ian: only 10 minutes left ...................................................................
15:50:28 [pfps]
Ian: did Deborah say that Primer could replace Guide
15:50:34 [alanr_]
q?
15:50:40 [alanr_]
ack IanH
15:50:53 [pfps]
Deborah: if it was constructor comprehensive
15:51:20 [pfps]
Ian: is there an agreement that Primer could replace Guide?
15:51:42 [pfps]
Deborah: yes - but also think about wine agent
15:51:58 [alanr_]
q?
15:52:13 [pfps]
Conrad: i didn't use guide
15:52:23 [alanr_]
q+ alanr
15:52:51 [pfps]
Bijan: does guide have to be a reference as well?
15:53:21 [pfps]
BIjan: let's not end up with more documents (in rec track)
15:53:49 [IanH]
That seems reasonable. Where would the primer fit into that?
15:54:23 [pfps]
Peter: primer is already almost constructor comprehensive
15:55:25 [dlm]
can we also separate this as a potential replacement for the overview?
15:55:31 [pfps]
Alan: Primer can overtake guide if constructor comprehensive
15:55:40 [IanH]
can try
15:56:14 [IanH]
Proposal: primer could become a replacement for the guide modulo a few concerns
15:56:18 [bijan]
+1
15:56:20 [IanH]
zakim, unmute me
15:56:20 [Zakim]
IanH should no longer be muted
15:57:30 [alanr_]
Proposal+: Going primer does not yet settle exclusive authorship/editorship
15:57:31 [pfps]
Alan: hang on please
15:58:34 [bijan]
+1
15:58:37 [pfps]
two proposals?
15:58:44 [ewallace]
+1
15:58:47 [IanH]
+1
15:58:51 [dlm]
with the agreement that we are only discussing the guide (and not the overview) +1
15:58:58 [pfps]
+1
15:59:10 [alanr_]
+1
15:59:30 [Conrad]
0
15:59:43 [alanr_]
zakim, who is here?
15:59:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Conrad, Evan_Wallace, pfps, ??P1, Deb, bijan, IanH
15:59:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dlm, bijan, Zakim, RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
16:00:50 [pfps]
separate mailing lists are against W3C policy, I think
16:00:52 [Zakim]
-Evan_Wallace
16:01:04 [Zakim]
-bijan
16:01:05 [Zakim]
-Deb
16:01:06 [Zakim]
-Conrad
16:01:06 [IanH]
bye
16:01:11 [Zakim]
-IanH
16:01:16 [Zakim]
-pfps
16:01:33 [alanr_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/28-owl-minutes.html alanr_
16:01:47 [alanr_]
rrsagent, make logs world readable
16:01:47 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs world readable', alanr_. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:01:56 [alanr_]
rrsagent, make log world-readable
16:01:57 [pfps]
how do we make the minutes accessible?
16:02:11 [alanr_]
I think I just did it. hang on let me check
16:03:13 [alanr_]
nope, but might be slow.
16:03:28 [alanr_]
rrsagent, bookmark
16:03:28 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/01/28-owl-irc#T16-03-28
16:03:59 [alanr_]
peter, at a minimum, the raw log is visible now
16:04:11 [alanr_]
rrsagent, make minutes world-readable
16:04:11 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-readable', alanr_. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:04:26 [alanr_]
erg. I'll figure it out - have to check notes
16:04:42 [alanr_]
again, thanks for scribing!
16:05:01 [pfps]
rrsagent, create the minutes
16:05:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/28-owl-minutes.html pfps
16:05:10 [Zakim]
-??P1
16:05:11 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()10:00AM has ended
16:05:12 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.301.975.aaaa, Evan_Wallace, Elisa_Kendall, +1.518.608.aabb, IanH, pfps, Conrad, Deb, bijan
16:05:46 [alanr_]
ok, we're good
16:06:28 [bijan]
sandro, I believe
16:06:46 [pfps]
who bells this cat?
16:07:53 [sandro]
I think you either type them in yourself, or you send me bribes.
16:08:14 [pfps]
from RRSAGENT?
16:08:27 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:08:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/28-owl-minutes.html sandro
16:08:54 [sandro]
if you want them converted to wiki format, I need to do some stuff by hand, that's all.
16:09:06 [Conrad]
bye
16:09:09 [pfps]
OK, please do so
16:09:29 [pfps]
you can have my eternal gratitude for the next 15 minutes
16:09:31 [sandro]
Can you enter a clean "Present: ...." line? If you know who was here.....
16:10:05 [sandro]
Can you make me a kayak in 15 minutes?
16:12:02 [pfps]
I can make you a kayak picture in 15 minutes. :-)
16:12:10 [sandro]
sigh.
16:13:02 [pfps]
Present: Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr, IanH, jar, sandro, Deborah
16:13:05 [sandro]
what URL for the page?
16:13:13 [bijan]
And me?
16:13:29 [sandro]
Present: Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr, IanH, jar, sandro, Deborah, Bijan
16:13:29 [bijan]
I was late but present
16:13:31 [pfps]
Present: Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr, IanH, jar, sandro, Deborah, bijan
16:14:01 [pfps]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/UFDTF/Minutes.2008.01.28
16:14:18 [jar]
jar has left #owl
16:15:20 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/UFDTF/Minutes.2008.01.28 done
16:15:43 [pfps]
thanks