15:01:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
15:01:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/28-owl-irc
15:01:31 <IanH> what is the access code?
15:01:41 <alanr_> zakim, code?
15:01:42 <pfps> the usual owlwg
15:02:01 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:39 <alanr_> zakim, who is here?
15:02:52 <alanr_> zakim, this is owlwg
15:03:07 <alanr_> zakim, who is here?
15:03:14 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #owl
15:03:30 <alanr_> zakim, who is here?
15:03:33 <alanr_> q?
15:03:40 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:46 <Zakim> sorry, alanr_, I don't know what conference this is
15:03:58 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I don't know what conference this is
15:04:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
15:04:11 <pfps> zakim, this is owlwg
15:04:34 <Zakim> ok, pfps; that matches SW_OWL()10:00AM
15:04:44 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.301.975.aaaa, Evan_Wallace, ??P12, ??P1, Elisa_Kendall, ??P26
15:05:50 <IanH> I didn't see an ??Px when I joined so don't know how to tell zakim who I am
15:05:56 <pfps> bijan? deb? jim?
15:06:13 <pfps> no regrets from jim, I think
15:06:22 <IanH> How do I raise my hand?
15:06:33 <pfps> bijan was sick last week - he hasn't been sending email today, to he might be sick again
15:07:23 <Zakim> + +1.518.608.aabb
15:07:36 <alanr_> 41# to "raise your hand"
15:07:52 <IanH> zakim, ??P26 is IanH
15:07:52 <Zakim> +IanH; got it
15:07:53 <ewallace> The 301 num is probably Conrad
15:07:57 <IanH> ack IanH
15:08:02 <IanH> ack ??P26
15:08:04 <alanr_> zakim, who is here?
15:08:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.301.975.aaaa, Evan_Wallace, ??P12, ??P1, Elisa_Kendall, IanH, +1.518.608.aabb
15:08:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
15:08:11 <Conrad> I'm (301) 975-3818
15:08:23 <pfps> zakim, ??p12 is me
15:08:23 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:08:23 <alanr_> zakim, 3818 is Conrad
15:08:26 <Zakim> sorry, alanr_, I do not recognize a party named '3818'
15:08:34 <pfps> q- ??P12
15:08:46 <alanr_> zakim, aaaa is Conrad
15:08:46 <Zakim> +Conrad; got it
15:08:58 <alanr_> zakim, who is here?
15:08:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Conrad, Evan_Wallace, pfps, ??P1, Elisa_Kendall, IanH (muted), +1.518.608.aabb
15:09:00 <IanH> Bijan not in office -- trying home
15:09:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
15:09:21 <alanr_> zakim, aabb is Deb
15:09:21 <Zakim> +Deb; got it
15:09:31 <alanr_> zakim, who is here?
15:09:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Conrad, Evan_Wallace, pfps, ??P1, Elisa_Kendall, IanH (muted), Deb
15:09:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
15:10:55 <IanH> Tracked down Bijan -- he is on his way!
15:12:08 <Zakim> +??P38
15:12:19 <bijan> bijan has joined #owl
15:12:35 <bijan> zakim, who is here?
15:12:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Conrad, Evan_Wallace, pfps (muted), ??P1, Elisa_Kendall, IanH (muted), Deb, ??P38
15:12:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see bijan, Zakim, RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
15:12:47 <IanH> zakim, ??P38 is bijan
15:12:47 <Zakim> +bijan; got it
15:12:49 <bijan> zakim, ??P38
15:12:49 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P38', bijan
15:13:04 <ewallace> Hi Bijan.
15:13:23 <bijan> Hi, ewallace
15:13:28 <IanH> I don't know how this jar person is, but I guess that they shouldn't be on the call?
15:13:42 <bijan> Jonathan Rees
15:13:51 <bijan> Who's with alan, I believe
15:13:58 <IanH> OK - sorry!
15:15:29 <Zakim> -IanH
15:15:40 <pfps> scribe?
15:16:01 <bijan> "Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG)
15:16:02 <bijan> The most complete overview 
15:16:02 <bijan> "
15:16:12 <IanH> Skype dropped me -- back soon!
15:16:33 <pfps> ScribeNick: pfps
15:16:43 <dlm> dlm has joined #owl
15:16:46 <pfps> Elisa:  twice as many overviews as primers
15:16:52 <pfps> Bijan: of what sort?
15:17:00 <pfps> Elisa: not necessarily rec track
15:17:16 <pfps> Elisa: overview - .....
15:17:17 <jar> jar = Jonathan Rees of Science Commons. Alan asked me to help out so I'm a WG member. I'm not on the call, just on irc.
15:17:40 <pfps> Elisa: primer - longer document - some insight - not for experts
15:17:58 <pfps> Elisa: quick start guide - pointers, a little bit of stuff - that's it
15:18:31 <pfps> Elisa: short is needed
15:18:40 <bijan> q+
15:18:45 <alanr_> q+
15:19:50 <pfps> Bijan: guide goals are - short, entry point
15:19:59 <pfps> Bijan:  seems to align with Elisa's point
15:20:12 <pfps> Bijan: longer guide is not necessary
15:20:21 <pfps> Bijan: home page can serve as entry point
15:20:58 <pfps> BIjan: inter doc pointers are very useful
15:21:09 <pfps> Bijan: multiple documents are their own load
15:21:21 <Zakim> +??P26
15:21:31 <IanH> zakim, ??P26 is IanH
15:21:31 <Zakim> +IanH; got it
15:21:35 <bijan> ack me
15:21:36 <pfps> Bijan: home page can play role of entry point
15:22:41 <pfps> Alan: Guide = Primer - narrative story
15:23:40 <pfps> Alan: missing from Overview - small orientation document, delta from previous
15:24:26 <ewallace> I am against tath
15:24:33 <pfps> Alan: Can we merge reference, syntax, and semantics?
15:25:39 <Conrad> I thought Jim H was against that.  I am also.  The reference is supposed to be easy to use.  Having a swtich is effectively different documents.
15:26:17 <pfps> Alan: merge reference and syntax - i.e., no separate 'reference'
15:26:48 <Conrad> We should distinguish folding from what the user sees.
15:26:57 <pfps> Bijan: there is little information hiding needed - only reorganizaion
15:27:15 <Conrad> Folding effectively produces separate documents, which is more what I'd like to see.
15:27:29 <alanr_> chat by talking, not in irc, please
15:27:33 <alanr_> q?
15:27:37 <alanr_> ack alanr_
15:28:21 <alanr_> elisa suggesting "fold out" as overview. More than links to document. Summary of features of the language
15:28:33 <pfps> it would be nice to have Elisa's methodology on overview vs primer in the minutes
15:28:55 <pfps> Elisa: overview = "fold out" document
15:29:29 <bijan> What?
15:29:33 <alanr_> will ask
15:29:34 <pfps> Elisa: guide has to have a story
15:29:38 <pfps> q+
15:29:49 <pfps> Elisa: issues with wine as an example ontology
15:30:15 <pfps> Elisa: also guidance on how to do things
15:31:22 <pfps> Pfps: primer has a story
15:31:49 <pfps> Elisa: guide also has an application - gives people a feeling of how to use an ontology
15:31:50 <alanr_> elisa: Some code and suggestions to run themselves as addition to primer
15:31:52 <pfps> q-
15:32:32 <pfps> Topic: Primer
15:33:11 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
15:33:40 <pfps> q+
15:34:33 <alanr_> Bijan: Detailed comments not necessarily useful here, as this is first draft
15:34:46 <pfps> Bijan: not interested (right now) in detailed comments
15:34:49 <alanr_> Bijan: Proposes that overview and guide can be covered by this document
15:34:54 <pfps> Bijan: primer is first draft
15:35:06 <pfps> Bijan: primer is supposed to cover overview and guide
15:35:39 <alanr_> Bijan: To the degree that it can cover both overview/guide would like to hear people's comments
15:36:02 <alanr_> Peter: Direction should be clear. Better direction than guide+overview of old
15:36:52 <bijan> +1 to introduction
15:36:53 <pfps> Evan: I like primer - it is an introduction
15:36:54 <alanr_> Evan: Primer is an "introduction"
15:37:15 <pfps> Evan: fundamental tension between overview and guide - can there be one document
15:37:31 <pfps> Evan: we may not need a long guide
15:37:46 <pfps> Evan: ... what do we want to accomplish with UFD?
15:38:08 <pfps> Evan:  I would go for reference and introduction
15:38:25 <pfps> Evan: also use cases - but this is not necessarily UF
15:38:49 <bijan> I want to 1) not turn people off OWL, 2) pull people into OWL, 3) leave them unconfused on key point, 4) help them to make sound decisions
15:38:50 <pfps> Evan: Primer is better introduction than Overview + Guide
15:39:28 <pfps> Alan: to meet charter we need to show that our documents meet the goals
15:39:59 <pfps> Bijan: what is needed - better replacements for old docs or meeting the deliverables
15:40:11 <pfps> Conrad: want intro & reference
15:40:23 <pfps> Conrad: also want guide
15:40:38 <pfps> Conrad: upgrading existing makes more sense
15:41:04 <pfps> Conrad: want to draw in software community into OWL - so emphasize differences
15:41:14 <bijan> +1 to pulling in software folks and making them unerstand how OWL is different
15:41:51 <pfps> Conrad: guide is longer (and reference is also)
15:42:40 <pfps> Alan: primer is a slightly longer document
15:43:17 <pfps> Bijan: length per se is not the goal
15:43:35 <dlm> possibly consider comprehensive as a replacement for longer
15:44:48 <pfps> Conrad: different readers - "executives", ... - need different levels of explanation
15:45:00 <alanr_> q?
15:45:07 <dlm> +q
15:45:20 <pfps> Bijan: what about comprehensiveness
15:46:21 <bijan> q+
15:46:22 <pfps> Deborah: users search in guide for constructors
15:46:41 <alanr_> ack dlm
15:46:45 <alanr_> ack bijan
15:47:00 <pfps> Bijan: users use guide as reference?
15:47:05 <alanr_> +1 - sounds like deb description is reference
15:47:17 <pfps> Bijan: if reference was better organized then it might serve the same purpose
15:47:50 <alanr_> q+
15:47:58 <pfps> Deborah: users use guide as [cookbook] when they can't hack the references
15:48:05 <IanH> q+
15:48:29 <pfps> Deborah: that's why I agree that there is a tension between overview and guide
15:48:49 <pfps> Deborah: I thought that primer would be comprehensive for constructors
15:48:50 <bijan> q+
15:48:51 <pfps> q+
15:48:59 <alanr_> ack alanr
15:49:25 <bijan> +1
15:49:43 <pfps> Alan: comprehensiveness in tension with narrative?
15:50:02 <pfps> Ian: only 10 minutes left ...................................................................
15:50:28 <pfps> Ian: did Deborah say that Primer could replace Guide
15:50:34 <alanr_> q?
15:50:40 <alanr_> ack IanH
15:50:53 <pfps> Deborah: if it was constructor comprehensive
15:51:20 <pfps> Ian: is there an agreement that Primer could replace Guide?
15:51:42 <pfps> Deborah: yes - but also think about wine agent
15:51:58 <alanr_> q?
15:52:13 <pfps> Conrad: i didn't use guide
15:52:23 <alanr_> q+ alanr
15:52:51 <pfps> Bijan: does guide have to be a reference as well?
15:53:21 <pfps> BIjan: let's not end up with more documents (in rec track)
15:53:49 <IanH> That seems reasonable. Where would the primer fit into that?
15:54:23 <pfps> Peter: primer is already almost constructor comprehensive
15:55:25 <dlm> can we also separate this as a potential replacement for the overview?
15:55:31 <pfps> Alan: Primer can overtake guide if constructor comprehensive
15:55:40 <IanH> can try
15:56:14 <IanH> Proposal: primer could become a replacement for the guide modulo a few concerns
15:56:18 <bijan> +1
15:56:20 <IanH> zakim, unmute me
15:56:20 <Zakim> IanH should no longer be muted
15:57:30 <alanr_> Proposal+: Going primer does not yet settle exclusive authorship/editorship
15:57:31 <pfps> Alan: hang on please
15:58:34 <bijan> +1
15:58:37 <pfps> two proposals?
15:58:44 <ewallace> +1
15:58:47 <IanH> +1
15:58:51 <dlm> with the agreement that we are only discussing the guide (and not the overview) +1
15:58:58 <pfps> +1
15:59:10 <alanr_> +1
15:59:30 <Conrad> 0
15:59:43 <alanr_> zakim, who is here?
15:59:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see Conrad, Evan_Wallace, pfps, ??P1, Deb, bijan, IanH
15:59:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see dlm, bijan, Zakim, RRSAgent, Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr_, IanH, jar, sandro, trackbot-ng
16:00:50 <pfps> separate mailing lists are against W3C policy,  I think
16:00:52 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
16:01:04 <Zakim> -bijan
16:01:05 <Zakim> -Deb
16:01:06 <Zakim> -Conrad
16:01:06 <IanH> bye
16:01:11 <Zakim> -IanH
16:01:16 <Zakim> -pfps
16:01:33 <alanr_> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/28-owl-minutes.html alanr_
16:01:47 <alanr_> rrsagent, make logs world readable
16:01:47 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs world readable', alanr_.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:01:56 <alanr_> rrsagent, make log world-readable
16:01:57 <pfps> how do we make the minutes accessible?
16:02:11 <alanr_> I think I just did it. hang on let me check
16:03:13 <alanr_> nope, but might be slow.
16:03:28 <alanr_> rrsagent, bookmark
16:03:28 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/01/28-owl-irc#T16-03-28
16:03:59 <alanr_> peter, at a minimum, the raw log is visible now
16:04:11 <alanr_> rrsagent, make minutes world-readable
16:04:11 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-readable', alanr_.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:04:26 <alanr_> erg. I'll figure it out - have to check notes
16:04:42 <alanr_> again, thanks for scribing!
16:05:01 <pfps> rrsagent, create the minutes
16:05:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/28-owl-minutes.html pfps
16:05:10 <Zakim> -??P1
16:05:11 <Zakim> SW_OWL()10:00AM has ended
16:05:12 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.301.975.aaaa, Evan_Wallace, Elisa_Kendall, +1.518.608.aabb, IanH, pfps, Conrad, Deb, bijan
16:05:46 <alanr_> ok, we're good
16:06:28 <bijan> sandro, I believe
16:06:46 <pfps> who bells this cat?
16:07:53 <sandro> I think you either type them in yourself, or you send me bribes.
16:08:14 <pfps> from RRSAGENT?
16:08:27 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:08:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/28-owl-minutes.html sandro
16:08:54 <sandro> if you want them converted to wiki format, I need to do some stuff by hand, that's all.
16:09:06 <Conrad> bye
16:09:09 <pfps> OK, please do so
16:09:29 <pfps> you can have my eternal gratitude for the next 15 minutes
16:09:31 <sandro> Can you enter a clean "Present: ...." line?    If you know who was here.....
16:10:05 <sandro> Can you make me a kayak in 15 minutes?
16:12:02 <pfps> I can make you a kayak picture in 15 minutes.  :-)
16:12:10 <sandro> sigh.
16:13:02 <pfps> Present: Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr, IanH, jar, sandro, Deborah
16:13:05 <sandro> what URL for the page?         
16:13:13 <bijan> And me?
16:13:29 <sandro> Present: Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr, IanH, jar, sandro, Deborah, Bijan
16:13:29 <bijan> I was late but present
16:13:31 <pfps> Present: Elisa, Conrad, pfps, ewallace, alanr, IanH, jar, sandro, Deborah, bijan
16:14:01 <pfps> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/UFDTF/Minutes.2008.01.28
16:14:18 <jar> jar has left #owl
16:15:20 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/UFDTF/Minutes.2008.01.28 done
16:15:43 <pfps> thanks