14:56:29 RRSAgent has joined #bpwg 14:56:29 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc 14:56:31 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:56:33 Zakim, this will be BPWG 14:56:33 ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 14:56:34 Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference 14:56:34 Date: 22 January 2008 14:56:54 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/GoodStandingTracker.html 14:57:14 Chair: francois 14:59:36 Bryan has joined #bpwg 14:59:50 MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has now started 14:59:57 +Bryan_Sullivan 15:00:20 zakim, code? 15:00:21 the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo 15:00:26 +Magnus 15:00:36 jo, you asked to be pinged at this time 15:00:59 +francois 15:01:05 +??P8 15:01:14 Magnus has joined #bpwg 15:01:15 + +1.519.880.aaaa 15:02:02 zakim, ??p8 is me 15:02:02 +jo; got it 15:02:20 zakim, who's on the call? 15:02:22 On the phone I see Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, francois, jo, +1.519.880.aaaa 15:02:26 zakim, who's on the call? 15:02:26 On the phone I see Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, francois, jo, +1.519.880.aaaa 15:02:30 hgerlach has joined #bpwg 15:02:46 zakim, aaaa is kemp 15:02:47 +kemp; got it 15:03:54 + +49.211.aabb 15:04:02 yes I am here:-) 15:04:05 zakim, aabb is hgerlach 15:04:05 +hgerlach; got it 15:04:36 kemp has joined #bpwg 15:04:49 scribe: bryan 15:05:15 Topic: Greetings from francois 15:05:46 for now or for future as well? 15:05:56 Close ACTION-608 15:05:57 Francois will chair the CT task, so we will close the AI related to finding one. 15:05:57 ACTION-608 Recruit a TF lead for CT closed 15:06:42 Taskforce homepage needs update to show the change. 15:07:06 Topic: HTTP Cache-Control extensions 15:07:18 s/Francois/Francois: I/ 15:07:23 Discussion today covers the CT document updates. 15:07:37 s/Taskforce/... Taskforce 15:07:55 s/Disc/Francois: Discussion 15:07:55 Cache-control header changes check is still pending. No reply yet from other W3C groups. 15:08:17 s/Cache/... Cache 15:08:43 ACTION-603? 15:08:43 ACTION-603 -- Jo Rabin to find out how to liaise with HTTP NG work -- due 2008-01-03 -- OPEN 15:08:43 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/603 15:09:31 Francois to carry forward the AI for HTTP NG relationship. 15:10:06 Francois: any other alternatives to dependence upon extensions? 15:10:20 ... maybe two step approach 15:10:30 s/Francoise to/Francois: I will 15:10:58 s/.../Haiko:/ 15:11:12 s/Haiko/Heiko/ 15:12:07 +SeanP 15:12:27 zakim, who makes noise 15:12:27 I don't understand 'who makes noise', francois 15:12:29 Jo: discusson with Rhys etc earlier resulted in decision at the time.... 15:12:29 zakim, who makes noise? 15:12:29 I don't understand your question, francois. 15:13:35 Jo: ... it would be premature to publish something at that time. .mobi published a style guide draft related to this in the meantime. 15:13:59 http://dev.mobi/node/612 15:15:09 ... providing guidance on server config on how to achieve. W3C could do something similar, but we could also note in the document the option for a minimum control based upon headers. 15:15:42 Heiko: we do not need headers for access to mobile OK sites. 15:16:17 Jo: we need them if we want to make the proxy aware of the user agent's basic control preferences. 15:16:43 Heiko: so this does not depend upon knowledge of mobile OK by the user agent 15:16:46 Jo: correct 15:17:19 [jo explained that the dotMobi paper describes use of Vary and no-transform which are pre-existing headers] 15:18:21 Jo: three possible actions: one, to note that we can use no-transform without extensions, and vary header also. 15:18:51 Jo: second, to publish a note that we can do something new consistent with .mobi style guide 15:20:08 [3 possibilities are: a) do nothing, b) publish a short note on what could be done with existing headers, basically the same as the dotMobi style guide and c) include a note to this effect in the Guidelines document] 15:21:06 Heiko: could combine with other approaches e.g. via powder and mobile OK, to define how the user knows about mobile OK sites 15:22:16 Jo: there are two aspects: (1) how to know when to transcode, e.g. based upon heuristics as Sean mentioned earlier; (2) control aspects 15:22:39 Jo: we can address the control aspects separately 15:23:24 Heiko: the control features are listed as to be defined, and we should make the values more precise, recommend something 15:23:41 s/Heiko/Francois/ 15:23:56 Jo: the document does need a summary of the proposed changes 15:24:18 Francois: do we want to think about the values on the mailing list? 15:24:35 Jo: we can summarize them and put text in the draft 15:24:46 ACTION: Jo to add a section summarising the proposed values and proposed names to next draft of Guidelines 15:24:47 Created ACTION-622 - Add a section summarising the proposed values and proposed names to next draft of Guidelines [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-01-29]. 15:25:09 Topic: Requirements (2.1) 15:25:13 Francois: next topic, about requirements part 15:25:52 Francois: re the editor's note, (is it needed); I think the section is valuable for the reader 15:26:54 Jo: agrees, and proposes to make it a summary of features enabled by this spec; but it's a description then, not requirements 15:27:19 Francois: yet its a description and maybe fits better in another section 15:27:51 Jo: will recast the section as a summary 15:27:55 ACTION: Recast the Requirements section as a Summary and make it accurate as compared with the details in section 4 15:27:55 Sorry, couldn't find user - Recast 15:28:16 ACTION: Jo to Recast the Requirements section as a Summary and make it accurate as compared with the details in section 4 15:28:16 Created ACTION-623 - Recast the Requirements section as a Summary and make it accurate as compared with the details in section 4 [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-01-29]. 15:29:02 Close ACTION-604 15:29:02 ACTION-604 Elaborate current draft especially in the areas of requirements closed 15:29:28 Topic: Cache-Control: no-transform, and "dangerous" content (2.4) 15:30:17 Francois: wondering if we can define dangerous content more precisely or we should remove the note 15:30:53 q+ 15:32:08 Bryan: Before the call, I was writing some contents on the list. I think it's useful for us to note there are exceptions to the rules, but not go into details 15:32:27 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080118#d2e237 Proxy States 15:32:44 ... We should say clearly that whenever a Proxy does that, it MUST say so 15:33:42 -kemp 15:33:43 q+ 15:33:47 ack b 15:34:51 Francois: what about parallels with child protection? 15:36:10 Jo: wanted to say that the proxy has certain functions that it will perform, and that there are cases in which it is acceptable if those functions are provided with active agreement 15:38:04 Jo: agreement of the user and content provider, e.g. removing images. But we need to say something otherwise there will be misunderstandings in deployments. 15:38:59 Francois: if we add extensions e.g. except-for, does that help here? 15:39:53 Jo: the statement was written as a general statement, e.g. whether the proxy transformed content may rely upon pre-defined agreements 15:40:39 Heiko: believes content blocking is a separate function and should not affect the controls via no-transform; how is content filtering related to transcoding 15:40:58 Jo: believes filtering is not related 15:41:05 Francois: agrees 15:41:40 Francois: so what is the agreement, should we mention that there are exceptions? 15:42:33 [jo used child protection as an analogy to try to justify the proxy intervening in transparent mode, but now regrets using that analogy :-(] 15:42:55 SeanP has joined #bpwg 15:43:38 Jo: if a proxy gets no-transform on its own, it should not do fix-up on its on; if there is no directive, it could fixup the content 15:45:14 Jo: it should be possible to setup a "session" to operate in no-transform mode 15:45:51 +??P13 15:46:01 sorry I have to leave for the doc, changed to mobile 15:46:05 -hgerlach 15:46:16 Jo: the proxy could become passive, e.g. upon no-transform reception, and a user interacting with the proxy instructs the proxy to no transform e.g. with a particular domain 15:47:08 Francois: so there seems to be an exception to the rule in the section, is that what we want? 15:47:42 Francois: we could continue this on the list 15:48:01 ACTION: francois to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content 15:48:01 Sorry, couldn't find user - francois 15:48:46 ACTION: fran to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content 15:48:46 Sorry, couldn't find user - fran 15:49:00 ACTION: me to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content 15:49:10 ACTION: me to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content 15:49:10 Created ACTION-624 - Initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [on Marcos Eguillor Fernandez - due 2008-01-29]. 15:49:38 Close ACTION-624 15:49:38 ACTION-624 Initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content closed 15:49:52 Heiko: add a topic, can POST responses be modified? 15:50:08 ACTION: Daoust to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content 15:50:08 Created ACTION-625 - Initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [on François Daoust - due 2008-01-29]. 15:50:28 Heiko: believes that only HEAD and GET responses are covered so far 15:50:43 Heiko: in section 3 15:50:54 Jo: requests Heiko raise this on the list 15:51:07 -??P13 15:51:37 Topic: CT proxies and "non browser" environments (3.2) 15:52:22 Francois: are non-browser web applications beyond the scope of the document? How can a CT-aware proxy know this? 15:52:34 Francois: should transformation occur in these cases? 15:52:51 Jo: Bryan added this in contribution. 15:53:23 Jo: J2ME clients often use HTTP thru proxies, the question is how to tell. 15:53:37 Bryan: I can add some text on that. 15:54:07 ... I would like to see this as part of the DD repository 15:54:20 ... the only possibility is to track the user-agent 15:54:42 Bryan: will contribute text on this 15:54:57 ACTION: Bryan to contribute text on detection of non-browser user agent 15:54:57 Created ACTION-626 - Contribute text on detection of non-browser user agent [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2008-01-29]. 15:55:39 Francois: how can a CT proxy interact with a non-browser client user? Is the basic assumption that transform should not occur in non-browser environments? 15:57:05 Jo: agrees, our focus should be limited to browsing 15:57:28 Bryan: there are other use cases where CT functions will be useful also 15:58:07 Jo: in non-browsing use cases, the the origin server needs to be CT-aware 15:58:20 s/non-// 15:58:35 Bryan: agrees, the CT proxy should not break things 15:58:41 [in order to stop image format manipulation etc.] 15:59:10 [in non browsing use cases the use cases are even less clear] 15:59:50 ACTION: Jo to make clear in the scope that we are talking browsing here 15:59:50 Created ACTION-627 - Make clear in the scope that we are talking browsing here [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-01-29]. 15:59:51 Francois: we could recommend that in a CT-unaware / non-browser case the CT proxy should not get in the way 16:00:20 Topic: Roadmap 16:01:07 Francois: would like to see the document move forward; not much more to change before FPWD, e.g. extension values, whether to use them or not... 16:01:42 Jo: preference is to have a draft ASAP in Feb. 16:01:48 Bryan: agrees 16:02:53 Jo: will not be in the next week's call, and will try to get a new draft out by Friday; the group should review it, and set a goal for lengthy discussion in Seoul 16:03:04 Jo: goal for FPWD decision in Seoul 16:03:31 Francois: agrees, will update the roadmap based upon that 16:04:57 ACTION: Jo to produce draft 1d by Friday 16:04:57 Created ACTION-628 - Produce draft 1d by Friday [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-01-29]. 16:05:28 -Magnus 16:07:31 -Bryan_Sullivan 16:07:33 -jo 16:07:34 -francois 16:07:34 MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has ended 16:07:35 Attendees were Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, francois, +1.519.880.aaaa, jo, kemp, +49.211.aabb, hgerlach, SeanP 16:07:43 zakim, list attendees 16:07:43 sorry, francois, I don't know what conference this is 16:08:00 Regrets: Andrew 16:08:08 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:08:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-minutes.html francois 16:14:57 jo has left #bpwg 17:00:23 rrsagent, bye 17:00:23 I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-actions.rdf : 17:00:23 ACTION: Jo to add a section summarising the proposed values and proposed names to next draft of Guidelines [1] 17:00:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-24-46 17:00:23 ACTION: Recast the Requirements section as a Summary and make it accurate as compared with the details in section 4 [2] 17:00:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-27-55 17:00:23 ACTION: Jo to Recast the Requirements section as a Summary and make it accurate as compared with the details in section 4 [3] 17:00:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-28-16 17:00:23 ACTION: francois to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [4] 17:00:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-48-01 17:00:23 ACTION: fran to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [5] 17:00:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-48-46 17:00:23 ACTION: me to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [6] 17:00:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-49-00 17:00:23 ACTION: me to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [7] 17:00:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-49-10 17:00:23 ACTION: Daoust to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [8] 17:00:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-50-08 17:00:23 ACTION: Bryan to contribute text on detection of non-browser user agent [9] 17:00:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-54-57 17:00:23 ACTION: Jo to make clear in the scope that we are talking browsing here [10] 17:00:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-59-50 17:00:23 ACTION: Jo to produce draft 1d by Friday [11] 17:00:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T16-04-57