IRC log of bpwg on 2008-01-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:29 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
14:56:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc
14:56:31 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:56:33 [trackbot-ng]
Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:56:33 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:34 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:56:34 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 22 January 2008
14:56:54 [francois]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/GoodStandingTracker.html
14:57:14 [francois]
Chair: francois
14:59:36 [Bryan]
Bryan has joined #bpwg
14:59:50 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has now started
14:59:57 [Zakim]
+Bryan_Sullivan
15:00:20 [jo]
zakim, code?
15:00:21 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
15:00:26 [Zakim]
+Magnus
15:00:36 [Zakim]
jo, you asked to be pinged at this time
15:00:59 [Zakim]
+francois
15:01:05 [Zakim]
+??P8
15:01:14 [Magnus]
Magnus has joined #bpwg
15:01:15 [Zakim]
+ +1.519.880.aaaa
15:02:02 [jo]
zakim, ??p8 is me
15:02:02 [Zakim]
+jo; got it
15:02:20 [francois]
zakim, who's on the call?
15:02:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, francois, jo, +1.519.880.aaaa
15:02:26 [francois]
zakim, who's on the call?
15:02:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, francois, jo, +1.519.880.aaaa
15:02:30 [hgerlach]
hgerlach has joined #bpwg
15:02:46 [jo]
zakim, aaaa is kemp
15:02:47 [Zakim]
+kemp; got it
15:03:54 [Zakim]
+ +49.211.aabb
15:04:02 [hgerlach]
yes I am here:-)
15:04:05 [jo]
zakim, aabb is hgerlach
15:04:05 [Zakim]
+hgerlach; got it
15:04:36 [kemp]
kemp has joined #bpwg
15:04:49 [jo]
scribe: bryan
15:05:15 [francois]
Topic: Greetings from francois
15:05:46 [hgerlach]
for now or for future as well?
15:05:56 [jo]
Close ACTION-608
15:05:57 [Bryan]
Francois will chair the CT task, so we will close the AI related to finding one.
15:05:57 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-608 Recruit a TF lead for CT closed
15:06:42 [Bryan]
Taskforce homepage needs update to show the change.
15:07:06 [francois]
Topic: HTTP Cache-Control extensions
15:07:18 [jo]
s/Francois/Francois: I/
15:07:23 [Bryan]
Discussion today covers the CT document updates.
15:07:37 [jo]
s/Taskforce/... Taskforce
15:07:55 [jo]
s/Disc/Francois: Discussion
15:07:55 [Bryan]
Cache-control header changes check is still pending. No reply yet from other W3C groups.
15:08:17 [jo]
s/Cache/... Cache
15:08:43 [jo]
ACTION-603?
15:08:43 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-603 -- Jo Rabin to find out how to liaise with HTTP NG work -- due 2008-01-03 -- OPEN
15:08:43 [trackbot-ng]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/603
15:09:31 [Bryan]
Francois to carry forward the AI for HTTP NG relationship.
15:10:06 [Bryan]
Francois: any other alternatives to dependence upon extensions?
15:10:20 [Bryan]
... maybe two step approach
15:10:30 [jo]
s/Francoise to/Francois: I will
15:10:58 [jo]
s/.../Haiko:/
15:11:12 [jo]
s/Haiko/Heiko/
15:12:07 [Zakim]
+SeanP
15:12:27 [francois]
zakim, who makes noise
15:12:27 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who makes noise', francois
15:12:29 [Bryan]
Jo: discusson with Rhys etc earlier resulted in decision at the time....
15:12:29 [francois]
zakim, who makes noise?
15:12:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, francois.
15:13:35 [Bryan]
Jo: ... it would be premature to publish something at that time. .mobi published a style guide draft related to this in the meantime.
15:13:59 [jo]
http://dev.mobi/node/612
15:15:09 [Bryan]
... providing guidance on server config on how to achieve. W3C could do something similar, but we could also note in the document the option for a minimum control based upon headers.
15:15:42 [Bryan]
Heiko: we do not need headers for access to mobile OK sites.
15:16:17 [Bryan]
Jo: we need them if we want to make the proxy aware of the user agent's basic control preferences.
15:16:43 [Bryan]
Heiko: so this does not depend upon knowledge of mobile OK by the user agent
15:16:46 [Bryan]
Jo: correct
15:17:19 [jo]
[jo explained that the dotMobi paper describes use of Vary and no-transform which are pre-existing headers]
15:18:21 [Bryan]
Jo: three possible actions: one, to note that we can use no-transform without extensions, and vary header also.
15:18:51 [Bryan]
Jo: second, to publish a note that we can do something new consistent with .mobi style guide
15:20:08 [jo]
[3 possibilities are: a) do nothing, b) publish a short note on what could be done with existing headers, basically the same as the dotMobi style guide and c) include a note to this effect in the Guidelines document]
15:21:06 [Bryan]
Heiko: could combine with other approaches e.g. via powder and mobile OK, to define how the user knows about mobile OK sites
15:22:16 [Bryan]
Jo: there are two aspects: (1) how to know when to transcode, e.g. based upon heuristics as Sean mentioned earlier; (2) control aspects
15:22:39 [Bryan]
Jo: we can address the control aspects separately
15:23:24 [Bryan]
Heiko: the control features are listed as to be defined, and we should make the values more precise, recommend something
15:23:41 [jo]
s/Heiko/Francois/
15:23:56 [Bryan]
Jo: the document does need a summary of the proposed changes
15:24:18 [Bryan]
Francois: do we want to think about the values on the mailing list?
15:24:35 [Bryan]
Jo: we can summarize them and put text in the draft
15:24:46 [jo]
ACTION: Jo to add a section summarising the proposed values and proposed names to next draft of Guidelines
15:24:47 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-622 - Add a section summarising the proposed values and proposed names to next draft of Guidelines [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-01-29].
15:25:09 [francois]
Topic: Requirements (2.1)
15:25:13 [Bryan]
Francois: next topic, about requirements part
15:25:52 [Bryan]
Francois: re the editor's note, (is it needed); I think the section is valuable for the reader
15:26:54 [Bryan]
Jo: agrees, and proposes to make it a summary of features enabled by this spec; but it's a description then, not requirements
15:27:19 [Bryan]
Francois: yet its a description and maybe fits better in another section
15:27:51 [Bryan]
Jo: will recast the section as a summary
15:27:55 [jo]
ACTION: Recast the Requirements section as a Summary and make it accurate as compared with the details in section 4
15:27:55 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Recast
15:28:16 [jo]
ACTION: Jo to Recast the Requirements section as a Summary and make it accurate as compared with the details in section 4
15:28:16 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-623 - Recast the Requirements section as a Summary and make it accurate as compared with the details in section 4 [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-01-29].
15:29:02 [jo]
Close ACTION-604
15:29:02 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-604 Elaborate current draft especially in the areas of requirements closed
15:29:28 [francois]
Topic: Cache-Control: no-transform, and "dangerous" content (2.4)
15:30:17 [Bryan]
Francois: wondering if we can define dangerous content more precisely or we should remove the note
15:30:53 [Bryan]
q+
15:32:08 [francois]
Bryan: Before the call, I was writing some contents on the list. I think it's useful for us to note there are exceptions to the rules, but not go into details
15:32:27 [jo]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080118#d2e237 Proxy States
15:32:44 [francois]
... We should say clearly that whenever a Proxy does that, it MUST say so
15:33:42 [Zakim]
-kemp
15:33:43 [jo]
q+
15:33:47 [jo]
ack b
15:34:51 [Bryan]
Francois: what about parallels with child protection?
15:36:10 [Bryan]
Jo: wanted to say that the proxy has certain functions that it will perform, and that there are cases in which it is acceptable if those functions are provided with active agreement
15:38:04 [Bryan]
Jo: agreement of the user and content provider, e.g. removing images. But we need to say something otherwise there will be misunderstandings in deployments.
15:38:59 [Bryan]
Francois: if we add extensions e.g. except-for, does that help here?
15:39:53 [Bryan]
Jo: the statement was written as a general statement, e.g. whether the proxy transformed content may rely upon pre-defined agreements
15:40:39 [Bryan]
Heiko: believes content blocking is a separate function and should not affect the controls via no-transform; how is content filtering related to transcoding
15:40:58 [Bryan]
Jo: believes filtering is not related
15:41:05 [Bryan]
Francois: agrees
15:41:40 [Bryan]
Francois: so what is the agreement, should we mention that there are exceptions?
15:42:33 [jo]
[jo used child protection as an analogy to try to justify the proxy intervening in transparent mode, but now regrets using that analogy :-(]
15:42:55 [SeanP]
SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:43:38 [Bryan]
Jo: if a proxy gets no-transform on its own, it should not do fix-up on its on; if there is no directive, it could fixup the content
15:45:14 [Bryan]
Jo: it should be possible to setup a "session" to operate in no-transform mode
15:45:51 [Zakim]
+??P13
15:46:01 [hgerlach]
sorry I have to leave for the doc, changed to mobile
15:46:05 [Zakim]
-hgerlach
15:46:16 [Bryan]
Jo: the proxy could become passive, e.g. upon no-transform reception, and a user interacting with the proxy instructs the proxy to no transform e.g. with a particular domain
15:47:08 [Bryan]
Francois: so there seems to be an exception to the rule in the section, is that what we want?
15:47:42 [Bryan]
Francois: we could continue this on the list
15:48:01 [jo]
ACTION: francois to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content
15:48:01 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - francois
15:48:46 [jo]
ACTION: fran to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content
15:48:46 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - fran
15:49:00 [francois]
ACTION: me to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content
15:49:10 [francois]
ACTION: me to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content
15:49:10 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-624 - Initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [on Marcos Eguillor Fernandez - due 2008-01-29].
15:49:38 [jo]
Close ACTION-624
15:49:38 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-624 Initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content closed
15:49:52 [Bryan]
Heiko: add a topic, can POST responses be modified?
15:50:08 [francois]
ACTION: Daoust to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content
15:50:08 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-625 - Initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [on François Daoust - due 2008-01-29].
15:50:28 [Bryan]
Heiko: believes that only HEAD and GET responses are covered so far
15:50:43 [Bryan]
Heiko: in section 3
15:50:54 [Bryan]
Jo: requests Heiko raise this on the list
15:51:07 [Zakim]
-??P13
15:51:37 [francois]
Topic: CT proxies and "non browser" environments (3.2)
15:52:22 [Bryan]
Francois: are non-browser web applications beyond the scope of the document? How can a CT-aware proxy know this?
15:52:34 [Bryan]
Francois: should transformation occur in these cases?
15:52:51 [Bryan]
Jo: Bryan added this in contribution.
15:53:23 [Bryan]
Jo: J2ME clients often use HTTP thru proxies, the question is how to tell.
15:53:37 [francois]
Bryan: I can add some text on that.
15:54:07 [francois]
... I would like to see this as part of the DD repository
15:54:20 [francois]
... the only possibility is to track the user-agent
15:54:42 [Bryan]
Bryan: will contribute text on this
15:54:57 [jo]
ACTION: Bryan to contribute text on detection of non-browser user agent
15:54:57 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-626 - Contribute text on detection of non-browser user agent [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2008-01-29].
15:55:39 [Bryan]
Francois: how can a CT proxy interact with a non-browser client user? Is the basic assumption that transform should not occur in non-browser environments?
15:57:05 [Bryan]
Jo: agrees, our focus should be limited to browsing
15:57:28 [Bryan]
Bryan: there are other use cases where CT functions will be useful also
15:58:07 [Bryan]
Jo: in non-browsing use cases, the the origin server needs to be CT-aware
15:58:20 [jo]
s/non-//
15:58:35 [Bryan]
Bryan: agrees, the CT proxy should not break things
15:58:41 [jo]
[in order to stop image format manipulation etc.]
15:59:10 [jo]
[in non browsing use cases the use cases are even less clear]
15:59:50 [jo]
ACTION: Jo to make clear in the scope that we are talking browsing here
15:59:50 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-627 - Make clear in the scope that we are talking browsing here [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-01-29].
15:59:51 [Bryan]
Francois: we could recommend that in a CT-unaware / non-browser case the CT proxy should not get in the way
16:00:20 [francois]
Topic: Roadmap
16:01:07 [Bryan]
Francois: would like to see the document move forward; not much more to change before FPWD, e.g. extension values, whether to use them or not...
16:01:42 [Bryan]
Jo: preference is to have a draft ASAP in Feb.
16:01:48 [Bryan]
Bryan: agrees
16:02:53 [Bryan]
Jo: will not be in the next week's call, and will try to get a new draft out by Friday; the group should review it, and set a goal for lengthy discussion in Seoul
16:03:04 [Bryan]
Jo: goal for FPWD decision in Seoul
16:03:31 [Bryan]
Francois: agrees, will update the roadmap based upon that
16:04:57 [jo]
ACTION: Jo to produce draft 1d by Friday
16:04:57 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-628 - Produce draft 1d by Friday [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-01-29].
16:05:28 [Zakim]
-Magnus
16:07:31 [Zakim]
-Bryan_Sullivan
16:07:33 [Zakim]
-jo
16:07:34 [Zakim]
-francois
16:07:34 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has ended
16:07:35 [Zakim]
Attendees were Bryan_Sullivan, Magnus, francois, +1.519.880.aaaa, jo, kemp, +49.211.aabb, hgerlach, SeanP
16:07:43 [francois]
zakim, list attendees
16:07:43 [Zakim]
sorry, francois, I don't know what conference this is
16:08:00 [francois]
Regrets: Andrew
16:08:08 [francois]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:08:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-minutes.html francois
16:14:57 [jo]
jo has left #bpwg
17:00:23 [francois]
rrsagent, bye
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-actions.rdf :
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jo to add a section summarising the proposed values and proposed names to next draft of Guidelines [1]
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-24-46
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Recast the Requirements section as a Summary and make it accurate as compared with the details in section 4 [2]
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-27-55
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jo to Recast the Requirements section as a Summary and make it accurate as compared with the details in section 4 [3]
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-28-16
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: francois to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [4]
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-48-01
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: fran to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [5]
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-48-46
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: me to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [6]
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-49-00
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: me to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [7]
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-49-10
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Daoust to initiate discuss on the exception wording ref dangerous content [8]
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-50-08
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Bryan to contribute text on detection of non-browser user agent [9]
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-54-57
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jo to make clear in the scope that we are talking browsing here [10]
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T15-59-50
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jo to produce draft 1d by Friday [11]
17:00:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-bpwg-irc#T16-04-57