IRC log of xhtml on 2008-01-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:32 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
14:00:32 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc
14:00:38 [Steven]: rrsagent, make log public
14:00:46 [Steven]: zakim, this will be xhtml
14:00:47 [Zakim]: ok, Steven, I see IA_XHTML2()9:00AM already started
14:00:52 [Steven]: zakim, who is here?
14:00:52 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +386.8.aaaa
14:00:53 [Zakim]: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, alessio, oedipus, Steven, myakura, Lachy, krijn
14:01:03 [Steven]: zakim, dial steven-617
14:01:03 [Zakim]: ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:01:05 [Zakim]: +Steven
14:01:08 [yamx]: yamx has joined #xhtml
14:01:30 [alessio_]: alessio_ has joined #xhtml
14:01:39 [Steven]: zakim, aaaa is Roland
14:01:39 [Zakim]: +Roland; got it
14:01:45 [Zakim]: +??P9
14:02:11 [Steven]: zakim, ??P9 is ALessio
14:02:11 [Zakim]: +ALessio; got it
14:02:21 [Steven]: zakim, ALessio is Alessio
14:02:21 [Zakim]: +Alessio; got it
14:02:55 [Zakim]: +??P14
14:03:00 [Steven]: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2007-02-Venice-FtF
14:03:04 [yamx]: zakim, ??P14 is yamx
14:03:04 [Zakim]: +yamx; got it
14:03:38 [markbirbeck]: markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
14:05:35 [Zakim]: +Gregory_Rosmiata
14:05:51 [markbirbeck]: zakim, code?
14:05:51 [Zakim]: the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:06:02 [oedipus]: zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
14:06:02 [Zakim]: +Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
14:06:09 [Steven]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0015
14:06:22 [Steven]: Steven has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0015
14:06:28 [Steven]: Chair: Roland
14:06:29 [Zakim]: + +20876aabb
14:06:36 [markbirbeck]: zakim, i am aabb
14:06:36 [Zakim]: +markbirbeck; got it
14:08:03 [Steven]: zakim, who is here?
14:08:03 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Alessio, yamx, Gregory_Rosmaita, markbirbeck
14:08:05 [Zakim]: On IRC I see markbirbeck, alessio_, yamx, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, oedipus, Steven, myakura, Lachy, krijn
14:08:31 [oedipus]: scribe: Gregory
14:08:37 [oedipus]: scribeNick: oedipus
14:09:13 [Zakim]: +??P18
14:09:42 [ShaneM]: ShaneM has joined #xhtml
14:09:42 [Roland]: Gerrie Shults from HP joining
14:09:58 [oedipus]: SP: 3 announcements: HP joining group again, 2) have at long last a wiki (only one full page) (MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki); 3) made f2f page
14:11:07 [oedipus]: SP: third announcement -- yahoo announced last week that new mobile widget platform is based on XForms -- backs up a lot of what we've been saying -- chose so as to enable platform to be directed to as many devices possible, in the most appropriate manner -- in phase one (transitional) but second will use straight XForms
14:11:22 [Steven]: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/
14:11:25 [Steven]: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2007-02-Venice-FtF
14:11:41 [oedipus]: RM: Selectors API - anything to report?
14:11:42 [Steven]: http://mobile.yahoo.com/developers/roadmap
14:12:07 [markbirbeck]: Shame that XML will never be used on the web, though. ;)
14:12:08 [oedipus]: SP: webAPs have almost as many deliverables as we do -- at least 13
14:12:18 [oedipus]: RM: 2 Web Apps groups going to merge
14:12:26 [oedipus]: SP: part of review -- who will take up what
14:12:39 [Steven]: Regrets: Christine
14:12:42 [oedipus]: RM: Rich not here, so perhaps postpone ARIA issue discussion
14:13:01 [oedipus]: RM: alessio will update wiki with details for f2f -- everyone planning to attend
14:13:15 [oedipus]: [note: everyone on call planning to attend]
14:13:30 [oedipus]: AC: IWA Italy (host)
14:13:39 [oedipus]: Yam: need to know for visa app
14:13:51 [oedipus]: SP: populate wiki and let yam know
14:14:05 [oedipus]: ACTION Alessio - add details to f2f wiki page
14:14:14 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Modularization Transition
14:14:46 [oedipus]: SP: sent an implementation request to RM and Shane -- in status of doc, discovered that still talks about HTML WG rather than XHTML2 WG -- needs change
14:15:03 [oedipus]: SP: will send info to all necessary channels
14:15:15 [oedipus]: TOPIC: CURIES to Last Call
14:15:33 [oedipus]: RM: datatype, etc. discussion at last week's call -- any answers?
14:15:39 [Roland]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Mar/0038.html
14:15:47 [oedipus]: SP: difference btw lexical value of CURIE and its value space
14:16:19 [oedipus]: SP: my claim is lexical value is as described in spec, value space is just URI -- think mark agreed, but shane dissented, but willing to let it pass
14:17:21 [oedipus]: RM: one more step -- pointing out that in Qnames talk about 2 components (2 seperate parts joined together for purpose) - value space, but alos prior stage when have 2 different parts -- left with mapping to URI plus suffix
14:17:28 [oedipus]: SP: why would we need to do that
14:17:57 [oedipus]: RM: point raised in email, if attempting to be backwards compatible applies to us, too
14:18:12 [oedipus]: Shane: posted to list on topic - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0011.html
14:20:05 [oedipus]: SP: my question to mark is - is there any sense in our being backwards compatible with QNames -- problem: 2 CURIES that expand to same URI, but prefix and suffix different -- not case in QName -- if same prefix and suffix there is a one-to-one mapping; don't see value of triples
14:21:16 [oedipus]: RM: wants us to be clearer on whatever we decide -- we're dealing with specific case of QNames, not a general use of QNames -- if make clearer and say value space final URI cannonized by whatever cannonicalization thing supposed to use to compare 2 CURIES
14:21:24 [oedipus]: MB: happy with that if Shane is
14:21:37 [oedipus]: Shane: think i'm happy with that -- please refer to final paragraph
14:21:52 [oedipus]: quote: Note that, as things stand right now, a CURIE used in a document like
14:21:52 [oedipus]: XHTML+RDFa will NOT be expanded in the DOM. If you are writing portable
14:21:52 [oedipus]: scripts today, you will need to do that expansion yourself. I think
14:21:52 [oedipus]: that, given Steven and Mark's arguments, you MUST do this expansion if
14:21:52 [oedipus]: you are going to attempt to do anything with CURIEs in a portable
14:21:53 [oedipus]: script. If, on the other hand, you are just writing a script for your
14:21:55 [oedipus]: own content, you could easily operate on the literal values, since you
14:21:57 [oedipus]: know what the prefixes and references mean.
14:22:11 [oedipus]: Shane: now, scripts are effecting DOM
14:22:19 [oedipus]: RM: crack open and convert to URIs
14:22:29 [oedipus]: Shane: does nothing to help write script looking for roles
14:23:08 [oedipus]: SP: script uses these parsers -- include script and API gives you the different bits; libraries for CURIES that do expansion for you -- don't query DOM to "give me this" but ask the API
14:23:33 [oedipus]: SP: agree with last paragraph -- not automatically in DOM -- have to construct yourself or use something that constructs it for you
14:24:13 [oedipus]: [scribe's note -- GJR mistook MB for RM)
14:24:23 [oedipus]: RM: who will reply to tell what we will do
14:24:26 [oedipus]: SP: candidates?
14:24:34 [oedipus]: RM: the 3 people involved in the dialog
14:24:38 [oedipus]: Shane: i can do it
14:24:48 [ShaneM]: ACTION: Shane to add text about expanding CURIEs into URIs in scripting.
14:24:51 [oedipus]: SP: definitive reference for transition from IRI to what goes over wire
14:25:13 [ShaneM]: ACTION: Shane to respond to submitter of question about value space of CURIEs and their relation to the value space of qnames.
14:25:21 [Steven]: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt
14:25:35 [oedipus]: RM: CURIES issue 8010
14:25:54 [Roland]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JanMar/0051
14:25:58 [oedipus]: s/for RM/for RM repeatedly
14:26:53 [oedipus]: Shane: we've already done this eight months ago
14:27:12 [oedipus]: RM: final one on list also done?
14:27:36 [Roland]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0000
14:28:12 [oedipus]: "When a CURIE is used in an XML grammar, and the prefix on the CURIE is omitted, then the prefix MUST be interpreted as the current default XML namespace."
14:28:42 [oedipus]: Shane: was it our intent to remove ambiguity (he says "flexibility") and answer is a resounding YES -- i replied to norm on this
14:29:21 [oedipus]: SP: we do mean current namespace (in reference to NormW's last comment) -- must be interpreted as if had prefix of current default XML namespace
14:29:39 [oedipus]: Shane; draft change so can't have non-prefixed CURIES -- have to define prefix
14:29:41 [Steven]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-curie-20071126/
14:31:07 [oedipus]: "When CURIES are used in a non-XML host language, the host language MUST provide a mechanism for defining the mapping from the prefix to an IRI. A host language MAY provide a mechanism for defining a default prefix value. In such a host language, if the prefix is omitted from a CURIE, the default prefix value is used. The concatenation of the prefix associated with a CURIE and its reference MUST be an IRI [IRI]. The CURIE prefix '_' is reserved. For this r
14:31:51 [oedipus]: SP: mark, you said we made more flexible
14:32:43 [oedipus]: MB: both scenarios XML Schema uses default NS, XSLT uses none -- asking if removed that, we didn't -- if allow host language to define prefix, have SPARQL if not have RDF
14:33:40 [oedipus]: RM: second question - addressed as well
14:34:17 [oedipus]: s/RM: second/MB: second/
14:34:32 [oedipus]: "The default prefix? Do you not mean the default namespace?
14:34:56 [oedipus]: MB: host language MAY is wording
14:35:20 [oedipus]: SP: default prefix is issue
14:35:44 [oedipus]: Shane: if a language mapping permits defaults, it will define mechanism, if not, the language will not permit it
14:36:20 [oedipus]: SP: if language doesn't support default prefixes, production for CURIE wrong - prefix not optional
14:36:29 [oedipus]: Shane: not really -- syntax still right
14:37:41 [oedipus]: MB: some kind of API? here are a whole lot of mappings, here is a CURIE, please tell me what the IRI is -- host language needs means of hosting and defining the CURIE through API -- language should inhibit the format that it doesn't like and not even call the API
14:38:13 [oedipus]: Shane: arbitrary rules for prefix mapping -- can't have generic prefix mapping anyway -- there is no default prefix that is the rule
14:39:10 [oedipus]: RM: latest editors' draft -- slightly out-of-date compared with RDFa -- perhaps we need to reword
14:39:35 [markbirbeck]: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_curies
14:39:42 [oedipus]: Shane: shouldn't be anything generic in RDFa that would cause problem unless something changed in last round of edits, which hasn't been made public
14:39:59 [oedipus]: s/RM: latest/MB: latest
14:40:01 [oedipus]: s/RM: latest/MB: latest/
14:40:38 [Zakim]: -Steven
14:40:38 [oedipus]: MB: whether define mapping to use for default prefix and when define way for authors to override that are 2 seperate things
14:40:54 [alessio]: alessio has joined #xhtml
14:41:27 [oedipus]: MB: need another draft
14:41:34 [oedipus]: RM: objective is to issue LC draft
14:41:52 [oedipus]: RM: can we get these cleared this week so can make decision to go to LC next week?
14:41:58 [Steven]: zakim, dial steven-617
14:41:58 [Zakim]: ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:41:59 [Zakim]: +Steven
14:42:18 [oedipus]: MB: cleared -- think specific comments resolved/answered
14:42:27 [ShaneM]: ACTION: Shane to reconcile CURIE draft with CURIE RDFa text so the processing model is consistent and the rules about default prefix processing are complete.
14:42:35 [oedipus]: RM: draft ready for LC in time to review before next meeting
14:42:43 [ShaneM]: ACTION: Shane to produce a CURIE last call candidate for next week's call.
14:43:11 [oedipus]: RM: done all can do today on CURIES -- any other issues?
14:43:17 [oedipus]: [silence]
14:43:26 [oedipus]: TOPIC: RDFa Module
14:43:57 [Roland]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0001.html
14:44:10 [oedipus]: RM: first item from last spring
14:44:40 [Roland]: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-rdfa-20070402/
14:44:48 [oedipus]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0003.html
14:45:08 [Roland]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0008.html
14:45:13 [oedipus]: "Two quick points noted by the CC folks: 1) xmlns still not supported.... darn DTDs, right? What's the path to fixing the W3C validator in this regard? Does it have to be schema-based? 2) it seems the document must be served as application/xhtml+xml... but XHTML 1.1 should be servable as text/html, right? Is there a deeper issue here that I don't understand?"
14:46:11 [oedipus]: Shane: done something really clever -- group member took collection of test cases and integrated them into a web page with ajax backend stuff that allows for easy browsing and use of tests -- try to find link for that
14:46:40 [oedipus]: Shane: decent approach to testing -- i think; don't know how to run tests against RDF
14:46:50 [oedipus]: MB: could use extended version of Manu's test suite locally
14:47:00 [Steven]: http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
14:47:09 [oedipus]: Shane: issues resolving references for URIs due to SPARQL queries
14:47:22 [oedipus]: Shene: rules for dealing with test cases? not normative part of spec
14:47:32 [oedipus]: SP: no, not normative, but part of transition to PR
14:48:01 [oedipus]: SP: issue CR spec with test suite -- here's CR spec, here's test suite, and then use to prove have 2 implementations
14:48:18 [oedipus]: Shane: isn't a test suite document -- just bag of tests tell people to use
14:48:31 [oedipus]: Shane: should draft reference drafts or part of transition announcement
14:48:39 [oedipus]: SP: part of transition announcement
14:48:53 [oedipus]: RM: near LC of RDFa
14:49:14 [oedipus]: Shane: WG needs to approve LC draft once there is a document --some strange outstanding issues that need to be resolved
14:49:45 [oedipus]: RM: none of items on list for modularization are still pertinent, but will look through
14:50:30 [oedipus]: Shane: they are ALL closed off; implementation report, as part of most recent draft produced last week (thought would use for CR request)
14:50:32 [oedipus]: SP: i did
14:51:04 [oedipus]: Shane: updated M12n candidate for CR transition -- you refer to last editors' draft, but that's not what we are pushing for CR
14:51:40 [oedipus]: Shane: only thing changed recently is "prose versus implementation" -- should add text to clarify there is a prose spec and implementations, if inconsistencies, prose wins
14:52:04 [oedipus]: Shane: didn't agree to change MUST to SHOULD in M12n, just Role
14:52:13 [oedipus]: RM: not my recollection
14:53:00 [oedipus]: Shane: changed in role and considered changing in access; argued that can't change in M12n -- no one thought of implications of importing all attributes in a namespace
14:53:11 [oedipus]: RM: think discussed in november
14:53:36 [oedipus]: RM: relaxed constraint for Role for ARIA
14:53:40 [oedipus]: SP: yes
14:53:51 [oedipus]: Shane: agree we would do in role, but not in M12n
14:54:26 [oedipus]: RM: have to change in M12n -- could be interpreted as change that could push back to LC -- will try and find pointer
14:54:32 [oedipus]: GJR: think on second day of f2f
14:55:19 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes
14:55:39 [oedipus]: Shane: not even sure where to change
14:56:00 [oedipus]: quote: <markbirbeck> When @role appears without a namespace in another language, it is because that language has added it to its own language. Just like @class in SVG is *not* @class in HTML, but they have given it the same semantics to make it easier for people to use
14:56:22 [oedipus]: quote: Steven: I would prefer just one, with an ENglish sentence "Rule 3.1.5 of modularization does not apply to this attribute" or somesuch
14:56:22 [oedipus]: Roland: Good
14:56:42 [oedipus]: [scribe's note - Roland's comment "good" from minutes
14:57:03 [Zakim]: -??P18
14:57:07 [Zakim]: -Alessio
14:57:08 [Zakim]: -markbirbeck
14:57:10 [oedipus]: rssagent, draft minutes
14:57:10 [Zakim]: -Steven
14:57:11 [Zakim]: -yamx
14:57:12 [Zakim]: -Roland
14:57:29 [Zakim]: -Gregory_Rosmaita
14:57:30 [Zakim]: IA_XHTML2()9:00AM has ended
14:57:31 [Zakim]: Attendees were +386.8.aaaa, Steven, Roland, Alessio, yamx, Gregory_Rosmaita, +20876aabb, markbirbeck
14:58:06 [oedipus]: rssagent, draft minutes
14:58:18 [oedipus]: zakim, please part
14:58:18 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #xhtml
14:58:50 [ShaneM]: steven.... M12N says this: <p>Each of the attributes defined in an XHTML attribute collection
14:58:50 [ShaneM]: is available for use when
14:58:50 [ShaneM]: their corresponding module is included in an XHTML Host Language or an
14:58:50 [ShaneM]: XHTML Integration Set. In such a
14:58:50 [ShaneM]: situation, the attributes are available for use in the definition
14:58:51 [ShaneM]: of elements that are NOT
14:58:53 [ShaneM]: in the XHTML namespace when they are referenced using their
14:58:55 [ShaneM]: namespace-qualified identifier (e.g., <code>xhtml:class</code>).
14:58:57 [ShaneM]: The semantics of the attributes remain the same regardless of whether
14:58:59 [ShaneM]: they are referenced using their qualified identifier or not.
14:59:01 [ShaneM]: <strong>It is an error to use an XHTML namespace-qualified attribute on elements from the XHTML Namespace.</strong>
14:59:04 [ShaneM]: </p>
14:59:05 [oedipus]: rrsagent, publish minutes
14:59:05 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:59:06 [ShaneM]: or roland. Is that where you think there should be a change?
14:59:13 [oedipus]: rrsagent, publish minutes
14:59:13 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:59:29 [Steven]: Thanks Gegory!
14:59:36 [Steven]: Gregory
14:59:40 [oedipus]: no problem, steven!
14:59:52 [Steven]: Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
14:59:55 [oedipus]: present+ Shane_McCarron
15:00:03 [oedipus]: present+ Mark_Birbeck
15:00:15 [oedipus]: present- aaaa
15:00:20 [Steven]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:20 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:00:25 [oedipus]: present- aabb
15:00:32 [oedipus]: rrsagent, publish minutes
15:00:32 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:00:54 [oedipus]: steven, are you going to push the minutes -- it's no bother to me if i do
15:01:09 [Steven]: As you like
15:01:18 [Steven]: If you volunteer :-)
15:01:32 [oedipus]: aye, aye, cap'n!
15:01:51 [oedipus]: present- [+386.8.aaaa]
15:02:32 [oedipus]: steven, do you know to whom the mystery numbers belong?
15:02:40 [oedipus]: rrsagent, publish minutes
15:02:40 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:03:02 [Steven]: Don't worry about it Gregory
15:03:07 [Steven]: Zakim getting confused
15:03:08 [oedipus]: i think the atendees list is fille anyway
15:03:15 [oedipus]: thank
15:03:18 [oedipus]: er, thanks
15:03:39 [oedipus]: rrsagent, please part
15:03:39 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-actions.rdf :
15:03:39 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Shane to add text about expanding CURIEs into URIs in scripting. [1]
15:03:39 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc#T14-24-48
15:03:39 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Shane to respond to submitter of question about value space of CURIEs and their relation to the value space of qnames. [2]
15:03:39 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc#T14-25-13
15:03:39 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Shane to reconcile CURIE draft with CURIE RDFa text so the processing model is consistent and the rules about default prefix processing are complete. [3]
15:03:39 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc#T14-42-27
15:03:39 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Shane to produce a CURIE last call candidate for next week's call. [4]
15:03:39 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc#T14-42-43