16:53:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:53:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/14-owl-irc
16:56:52 <bijan> bijan has joined #owl
16:57:24 <alanr> passcode not working - sandro?
16:58:05 <bijan> bristol bridge not working iether
16:58:13 <alanr> zakim, this is owlwg
16:58:55 <alanr> talking to an admin now
16:59:11 <bijan> I'm on zakim now but the pc fails
16:59:33 <bijan> So, progress :)
16:59:37 <pfps> i expect that no one set up the tc on zakim
16:59:54 <bijan> Inviting zakim seems hard
17:00:23 <pfps> if no tc on zakim, then maybe no zakim agent on irc?
17:00:32 <bijan> No
17:00:41 <bijan> Zakim has ot be told what conference this i
17:00:42 <bijan> s
17:00:50 <alanr> thought it was ongoing. WIll be set up in a couple of minutes
17:00:53 <bijan> Maybe if there's none at all...I guess that's possible
17:00:55 <bijan> who knows ;)
17:01:02 <bijan>  /invite Zakim #owl
17:01:05 <bijan> not working
17:01:15 <IanH> IanH has joined #owl
17:01:39 <pfps> no tc on http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar
17:02:06 <alanr> admin is setting things up. should be ready in a few minutes.
17:02:59 <Elisa> Elisa has joined #owl
17:03:34 <pfps> from http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar, 2007-03-28T1800Z - The Zakim phone bridge is up but with reduced (92) port capacity.
17:03:42 <pfps> rather out of date, no?
17:03:50 <IanH> is the conf code 69594?
17:04:09 <ewallace> That's what we used before
17:04:57 <IanH> Doesn't seem to work for me, but it might be a "feature" of skype
17:05:09 <alanr> should be set up momentarily
17:05:11 <pfps> if there is no tc for us, then our pc isn't going to work
17:05:12 <alanr> checking now
17:05:19 <ewallace> No.  It's not working for any of us.
17:05:20 <Elisa> no -- the call was never set up properly according to Josh -- he's doing so now
17:05:20 <bijan> Still not working
17:05:21 <bijan> jsut tried
17:06:32 <dlm> dlm has joined #owl
17:06:34 <pfps> maybe, but probably because no one reserved for this tc
17:06:34 <alanr> call was scheduled through end of 2007. 
17:07:03 <dlm> just got to a place to call - on in a minute
17:07:20 <alanr> please take this time to review documents that you haven't looked at yet. I will note as soon as it is set up.
17:08:06 <dlm> i just got that i am the first participant inthe conference on the phone
17:08:17 <alanr> call is working now
17:08:30 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #owl
17:08:41 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
17:08:41 <Zakim> sorry, alanr, I don't know what conference this is
17:08:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see dlm, Elisa, IanH, bijan, RRSAgent, alanr, pfps, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng
17:08:49 <alanr> zakim, this is owlwg
17:08:49 <Zakim> ok, alanr; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM
17:08:55 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
17:08:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.703.713.aaaa, Alan
17:08:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see dlm, Elisa, IanH, bijan, RRSAgent, alanr, pfps, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng
17:09:12 <alanr> zakim, aaaa is Deb
17:09:12 <Zakim> +Deb; got it
17:09:14 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
17:09:40 <Zakim> +??P4
17:09:49 <IanH> zakim, p4 is me
17:09:49 <Zakim> sorry, IanH, I do not recognize a party named 'p4'
17:10:00 <bijan> connected
17:10:04 <IanH> zakim, ??P4 is me
17:10:04 <Zakim> +IanH; got it
17:10:06 <Zakim> +??P5
17:10:11 <bijan> zakim, ??P5 is me
17:10:11 <Zakim> +bijan; got it
17:10:13 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:10:13 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
17:10:32 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
17:10:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Deb, Alan, Elisa_Kendall, IanH, bijan (muted)
17:10:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see dlm, Elisa, IanH, bijan, RRSAgent, alanr, pfps, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng
17:10:36 <Zakim> +??P9
17:10:44 <pfps> zakim, p9 is me
17:10:44 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not recognize a party named 'p9'
17:10:52 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
17:10:58 <pfps> zakim, ??p9 is me
17:10:58 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
17:11:06 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
17:11:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Deb, Alan, Elisa_Kendall, IanH (muted), bijan (muted), pfps, Evan_Wallace
17:11:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see dlm, Elisa, IanH, bijan, RRSAgent, alanr, pfps, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng
17:11:48 <IanH> +1
17:11:50 <pfps> +1
17:11:51 <ewallace> +1
17:11:52 <alanr> +1
17:11:54 <dlm> +1 for 10am
17:11:57 <bijan> +1
17:12:06 <Elisa> +1
17:12:15 <pfps> zakim, mute me
17:12:15 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
17:14:00 <alanr> scribe: Alanr
17:14:07 <alanr> close all but evan's action
17:15:09 <dlm> +1
17:15:15 <pfps> +00000000000000000000000000000
17:15:17 <bijan> -1 I don't know the consequences of that.
17:15:41 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:15:41 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
17:16:06 <alanr> q+
17:16:31 <pfps> what bijan says, but less
17:16:47 <alanr> Ideally, once we have these descriptions we can
17:16:48 <alanr> Evaluate them together to see whether we agree that these reader descriptions are realistic.
17:16:50 <alanr> Decide together who we think are the set of readers the WG will attempt to address.
17:16:51 <alanr> Periodically refer back to these chosen descriptions to help guide the construction of given documents.
17:16:53 <alanr> Perhaps find actual representatives of these sorts of readers to review our documents and give us feedback about whether the documents work for them.
17:17:24 <pfps> -1, then, as there are far too many targets
17:17:39 <bijan> q+
17:17:47 <alanr> ack alanr
17:17:50 <alanr> ack bijan
17:18:37 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:18:37 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
17:19:21 <pfps> what is a "use case" for these documents?
17:19:53 <alanr> q?
17:20:11 <Zakim> +Vipul_Kashyap
17:21:08 <Vipul> Vipul has joined #owl
17:21:10 <bijan> Here's a proposal: We'll use this page (possibly expanded over time) when looking for feedback
17:21:32 <bijan> This can go: 9 (From the XQuery Page [1]) 30,000 Foot View, CIO, CTO, Journalist
17:22:37 <Vipul> +1
17:22:48 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:22:48 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
17:23:07 <pfps> ok, there is no chance that 9 will be able to read any document we produce (as opposed to a paragraph on a web page - or something "glossy")
17:23:32 <Vipul> What about merging various persona into canonical forms....
17:23:54 <MartinD> MartinD has joined #OWL
17:23:56 <Vipul> So what about creating a one pager for the CTO, CIO... That's probably not too much work?
17:24:08 <bijan> Vipul, the w3c will write a press release
17:24:08 <pfps> sure, but that is not a WG document
17:24:12 <bijan> whenw e go to rec
17:24:27 <Vipul> Why not?
17:24:35 <pfps> the one-pager is not something we should even thinking about doing
17:24:48 <alanr> q?
17:25:53 <pfps> at rec time, w3c will ask for wording for the press release, we can provide input for that
17:27:06 <alanr> expectation is that once we've narrowed the list, if we get representative users and they don't understand things, then we would work on the documents to improve them
17:27:34 <Elisa> +1
17:27:43 <bijan> +1
17:27:51 <Vipul> +1
17:28:13 <IanH> +1
17:28:16 <pfps> +1
17:28:19 <dlm> +1
17:29:08 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Experiments_with_documents
17:29:31 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/mid/A65B1E57-B9D0-4447-8624-CD1CBEB79436@gmail.com
17:29:38 <bijan> (outline in the second one)
17:29:48 <bijan> q+
17:30:26 <alanr> ack bijan
17:30:31 <Vipul> I haven't read it... 
17:30:35 <Zakim> + +1.301.975.aabb
17:30:37 <pfps_> pfps_ has joined #owl
17:30:52 <alanr> bijan: Just an outline so hard to support what it would turn out of
17:31:14 <alanr> bijan: doesn't change how he feels about the document. If want to work out more detail, then encourage that.
17:31:16 <alanr> a?
17:31:18 <alanr> q?
17:32:48 <bijan> My primary assessement is that my poisition on this document hasn't changed by this outline from the F2F
17:34:20 <alanr> deb: Evan did some hunting around for what resistance was: Species was one.
17:34:42 <alanr> deb: Would like agreement on outline before doing more text generation
17:35:45 <alanr> deb: deb and peter not in agreement about features. would be willing to do more around that
17:36:35 <bijan> Isn't it still open whether there'd be a document of this particular sort at all?
17:38:25 <bijan> DId I get cut off?
17:38:30 <bijan> I did
17:38:35 <pfps> zakim, mute me
17:38:35 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
17:38:35 <IanH> q+
17:38:38 <bijan> I'm back...weird
17:40:04 <pfps> q+
17:40:07 <alanr> ack Ianh
17:40:14 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
17:40:14 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
17:40:44 <bijan> q+
17:41:23 <pfps> q+ to note that much WG work is speculative - certainly lots of my semantics work was
17:41:46 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Experiments_with_documents
17:43:36 <Zakim> -pfps
17:43:50 <pfps> i've dropped off the call somehow
17:44:01 <alanr> saw. Call back...
17:44:24 <pfps> after my 3-minute call setup
17:44:29 <alanr> :(
17:45:51 <Zakim> +??P9
17:45:56 <pfps> zakim, ??p9 is me
17:45:56 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
17:47:04 <alanr> q?
17:47:14 <alanr> ack bijan
17:47:19 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
17:47:19 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
17:47:48 <alanr> deb: asks what else could be done to make it acceptable
17:48:35 <alanr> bijan makes point about working group versus rec
17:48:57 <alanr> ian: Onus on Deb/Evan to flesh it out enough that it can be evaluated
17:49:19 <alanr> ack pfps
17:49:19 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to note that much WG work is speculative - certainly lots of my semantics work was
17:49:27 <dlm> +q
17:49:37 <alanr> ack dlm
17:49:40 <IanH> +1
17:49:41 <pfps> zakim, mute me
17:49:41 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
17:50:18 <bijan> And I think the WG wouldnt' support it
17:50:31 <IanH> If that's true, then presumably there is nothing different about the new version?
17:50:49 <bijan> Actually it was 2/3s against refreshing
17:50:59 <alanr> q+
17:51:14 <alanr> ack alanr
17:51:28 <pfps> zakim, mute me
17:51:28 <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
17:51:37 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F1_Minutes#User_Facing_Documents
17:51:53 <alanr> deb: If nothing will change then why bother - cut losses now
17:51:57 <pfps> well people on the call are committed to working on this, but I'm not sure that the people on the call are the stakeholders
17:51:59 <bijan> PROPOSED: 'Overview' requirement from charter to be met by cleaned up and expanded-as-needed version of 2004 OWL Overview
17:52:03 <alanr> alan: Asks for others for views
17:52:07 <bijan> total for yes: 7
17:52:11 <bijan> votes for no=12 (11 + vipul)
17:52:21 <bijan> 7 to 12 is not 50-50
17:52:38 <alanr> Elisa: Does have users that appreciate accessibility features of overview documents. Not sure what right organization is?
17:53:16 <alanr> Elisa: Interest in BNF, specifically
17:53:30 <bijan> We can generate a full BNF as an appendix
17:53:37 <bijan> Old overview didn't have a BND IIRC
17:53:43 <pfps> ... and bnf is in the SSS
17:53:48 <pfps> s/SSS/SS/
17:53:57 <IanH> I have to go soon -- train to catch
17:54:41 <Zakim> -Alan
17:54:42 <alanr> my phone dropped. hang on
17:55:15 <Zakim> +Alan_Ruttenberg
17:55:30 <Vipul> +1 to separate from tutorial
17:55:39 <bijan> Elisa, I tried to start that here: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Structural_Reference_Experiment#Preliminaries
17:56:03 <Vipul> More of a walk-through, cook book, guide
17:57:06 <alanr> q?
17:57:24 <alanr> Action: Elisa will think about organization during the week
17:57:24 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-65 - Will think about organization during the week [on Elisa Kendall - due 2008-01-21].
17:57:54 <bijan> Conrad see: http://www.webont.org/owl/documents/primer-exp.html#2
17:58:01 <alanr> Conrad: People can't just jump in. Concerned about software people understanding of classification. 
17:58:02 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:58:02 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
17:59:12 <alanr> http://www.webont.org/owl/documents/primer-exp.html
18:00:01 <Elisa> +1
18:00:20 <pfps> review - what review? I only wrote it.
18:01:34 <IanH> Got to go -- bye!
18:01:41 <Zakim> -IanH
18:02:02 <pfps> I think that the page Bijan put together says most of it.
18:02:27 <dlm> one question we might think about is what we tell topeople who were relying on the overview,req, and guide and want to know how to get what they were accustomed to using before.
18:02:43 <ewallace> I hadn't seen any link to Bijan/Peter's Primer before today
18:02:46 <dlm> +q
18:03:48 <ewallace> I will review.
18:04:12 <Zakim> -bijan
18:04:18 <Zakim> -Deb
18:04:19 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
18:04:20 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
18:04:20 <Zakim> - +1.301.975.aabb
18:04:22 <Zakim> -Alan_Ruttenberg
18:04:25 <Zakim> -Vipul_Kashyap
18:04:38 <MartinD> MartinD has left #OWL
18:04:58 <Zakim> -pfps
18:05:00 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
18:05:01 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.703.713.aaaa, Alan, Deb, Elisa_Kendall, IanH, bijan, Evan_Wallace, pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, +1.301.975.aabb, Alan_Ruttenberg
20:11:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #owl
20:33:21 <alanr> rrsagent, please make minutes
20:33:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/14-owl-minutes.html alanr
20:33:34 <alanr> rrsagent, please make minutes world-readable
20:33:34 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes world-readable', alanr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
20:33:39 <alanr> rrsagent, please make log world-readable
21:45:42 <sandro> sandro has joined #owl