IRC log of bpwg on 2008-01-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:41 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #bpwg

14:58:41 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/10-bpwg-irc

14:58:43 [trackbot-ng]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:58:43 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #bpwg

14:58:45 [trackbot-ng]

Zakim, this will be BPWG

14:58:45 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

14:58:46 [trackbot-ng]

Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference

14:58:46 [trackbot-ng]

Date: 10 January 2008

14:58:57 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started

14:58:58 [Zakim]

+Shahriar

14:59:16 [dom]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Jan/0011.html

14:59:22 [dom]

Chair: Jo

14:59:35 [francois]

Regrets: Kai, DKA, Adam, RobFinean, Roland, nacho, Murari, MartinJ, AlanTai

14:59:37 [Zakim]

+Diego

14:59:38 [Zakim]

-Diego

14:59:39 [Zakim]

+Diego

14:59:47 [hgerlach]

hgerlach has joined #bpwg

14:59:55 [francois]

zakim, code?

14:59:55 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois

15:00:00 [jo]

zakim, code?

15:00:00 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo

15:00:00 [hgerlach]

hi all

15:00:11 [abel]

zakim,Diego is me

15:00:11 [Zakim]

+abel; got it

15:00:14 [Zakim]

+ +1.503.539.aaaa

15:00:26 [abel]

zakim,Miguel is with me

15:00:26 [Zakim]

+Miguel; got it

15:00:31 [Zakim]

+francois

15:00:42 [Zakim]

+??P4

15:00:52 [Bryan]

Bryan has joined #bpwg

15:01:00 [Zakim]

+Bryan_Sullivan

15:01:03 [jo]

zakim, ??p4 is probably me

15:01:03 [Zakim]

+jo?; got it

15:01:10 [PhilA]

PhilA has joined #bpwg

15:01:14 [Zakim]

+Dom

15:01:19 [francois]

zakim, who's on the call?

15:01:19 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Shahriar, abel, +1.503.539.aaaa, francois, jo?, Bryan_Sullivan, Dom

15:01:21 [Zakim]

abel has abel, Miguel

15:01:48 [Zakim]

+??P9

15:02:05 [chaals]

chaals has joined #bpwg

15:02:06 [Zakim]

+Phil

15:02:11 [Zakim]

+Andrew

15:02:50 [PhilA]

zakim, mute me

15:02:50 [Zakim]

sorry, PhilA, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

15:02:53 [Zakim]

+Ed_Mitukiewicz

15:03:35 [jo]

zakim, Phil is PhilA

15:03:35 [Zakim]

+PhilA; got it

15:03:51 [PhilA]

zakim, mute me

15:03:51 [Zakim]

PhilA should now be muted

15:03:54 [edm]

edm has joined #bpwg

15:04:36 [dom]

zakim, aaaa is Jason

15:04:36 [Zakim]

+Jason; got it

15:04:46 [Zakim]

+??P3

15:04:57 [chaals]

zakim, ??p3 is me

15:04:57 [Zakim]

+chaals; got it

15:05:09 [chaals]

zakim, mute me please

15:05:09 [Zakim]

chaals should now be muted

15:05:29 [dom]

zakim, andrew is probably magnus

15:05:29 [Zakim]

+magnus?; got it

15:05:53 [dom]

zakim, who's noisy?

15:06:06 [Zakim]

dom, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: francois (55%), jo? (19%), Dom (25%)

15:06:11 [Jason]

Jason has joined #bpwg

15:06:13 [francois]

zakim, mute me

15:06:13 [Zakim]

francois should now be muted

15:06:28 [abel_]

abel_ has joined #bpwg

15:06:59 [skarim]

skarim has joined #bpwg

15:07:07 [hgerlach]

hgerlach has joined #bpwg

15:07:15 [chaals]

chaals has joined #bpwg

15:07:36 [jo]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Jan/0011.html Agenda

15:07:44 [chaals]

Scribe: Chaals

15:07:51 [chaals]

ScribeNick: chaals

15:07:52 [SeanP]

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15:08:22 [chaals]

Topic: Administrivia

15:08:29 [dom]

ack francois

15:09:01 [dom]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Jan/0006.html Good Standing rules now are applied

15:09:09 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/GoodStanding.html Good Standing Rules

15:09:10 [Zakim]

+SeanP

15:09:11 [chaals]

FD: Good standing rules apply from 1 january. You can track your status, check the rules, ...

15:09:16 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/GoodStandingTracker.html Good Standing Tracker

15:09:57 [chaals]

... People will get a warning if they are at risk of losing good standing.

15:10:07 [chaals]

... Goal is to ensure that people participate.

15:10:43 [chaals]

JR: Let's see i this achieves its objectives.

15:10:45 [francois]

zakim, mute me

15:10:45 [Zakim]

francois should now be muted

15:10:50 [chaals]

JR: Welcome Jason from HP

15:11:39 [chaals]

JK: Been with HP about a year, was with BitPhone before they got acquired. My primary focus is usability.

15:12:01 [chaals]

... before that was at Sprint.

15:12:57 [achuter]

achuter has joined #bpwg

15:13:22 [chaals]

JR: reminder - we are now working in public - so I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record - all technical stuff should be in public.

15:13:31 [PhilA]

q+

15:13:34 [chaals]

... Dom has put everyone on the list.

15:13:36 [PhilA]

ack me

15:13:47 [dom]

ack me

15:13:53 [chaals]

PA: Do I get two copies of everything because I am on member and public lists?

15:14:02 [PhilA]

zakim, mute me

15:14:02 [Zakim]

PhilA should now be muted

15:14:05 [chaals]

DHM: That's specially for you. Will fix it soon...

15:14:11 [dom]

ack me

15:14:16 [chaals]

??: What should be sent only tothe private list

15:14:38 [jo]

s/??/Heiko/

15:14:41 [hgerlach]

?? was heiko

15:14:43 [chaals]

JR: There are very few things. If there is some reason to keep discussion member-only, or if there is something that is purely administrative.

15:14:55 [Zakim]

+??P20

15:15:05 [achuter]

zakim, ??P20 is me

15:15:05 [Zakim]

+achuter; got it

15:15:32 [chaals]

s/?? was heiko//

15:15:38 [chaals]

Topic: Task Forces

15:15:48 [chaals]

Topic: Content Transformation TF

15:16:07 [dom]

q+

15:16:12 [chaals]

JR: We haven't done much since Xmas, am working on a draft. Hope we will be ready to bring the document to the whole group by the end of the month.

15:16:14 [dom]

ack me

15:16:30 [chaals]

DHM: For schedule, you mean FPWD in February?

15:16:33 [jo]

ack d

15:16:36 [chaals]

JR: Yes, hope so

15:16:45 [chaals]

DHM: Is the current editors' draft available?

15:16:51 [chaals]

JR: Yes

15:17:02 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/071124

15:17:24 [chaals]

Topic: Checker Group

15:18:24 [chaals]

JR: No Sean today. Group wants to move checker to a Beta status. I am unsure what that means. The group needs to think about that. Also needs to fulfil Dan's action coordinating what we need to do administratively for MobileOK Basic.

15:18:38 [chaals]

... Dom has done some real work on analysis of missing test cases.

15:18:38 [dom]

ack me

15:19:10 [chaals]

DHM: I looked at current code for checker, to see which tests are implemented. Sent a message to the mailing list

15:19:28 [jo]

s/DHM/Dom/

15:19:31 [Zakim]

+Sean_Owen

15:19:40 [francois]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2008Jan/0019.html

15:19:40 [chaals]

... identified a couple of tests that are not implemented or not correctly implemented, a few bugs, ...

15:19:42 [srowen]

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15:20:10 [chaals]

... hopefully this will help get the checker in shape for the Beta. Will also help dealing with CR exit criteria by having an implementation.

15:20:57 [PhilA]

ack me

15:21:00 [chaals]

Topic: Mobile OK Pro

15:21:13 [dom]

s/Mobile OK/mobileOK/

15:21:54 [chaals]

PA: Sent report. Kai is on holiday for a couple of weeks, won't do a lot of work. Thinking of having a teleconference before Task Force F2F - suggest 24 Jan, 2 hours before this call.

15:22:10 [chaals]

[chaals will be in Australia at a conference and not able to attend the call]

15:22:48 [chaals]

JR: Everyone can attend, right?

15:23:01 [PhilA]

I suggested that we have a telecon at 13.00 UTC on Thursday 24/1 ahead of the face to gace meeting on 5 - 6 Feb

15:23:06 [chaals]

PA: Yes. Date and time will go to the list.

15:23:08 [PhilA]

All welcome to both

15:23:14 [chaals]

Topic: Mobile Accessibility

15:23:16 [PhilA]

zakim, mute me

15:23:16 [Zakim]

PhilA should now be muted

15:23:44 [chaals]

AC: Not sure when last report was, but not a lot has happened over Xmas. WAI EO group have written some introductory stuff.

15:24:04 [chaals]

... less technical, I like it.

15:24:11 [jo]

-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/MWBP-WCAG/accessibility_mobile.html EOWG Page on Mobile

15:24:34 [chaals]

... Big table that was in the beginning has been taken over by WAI EO.

15:24:44 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080104/ Relationship Between Mobile Web Best Practices 1.0 and Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, Editors draft dated January 4th

15:24:51 [chaals]

... I will contribute, others here should do so, but better to work on it in WAI EO.

15:25:08 [jo]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/MWBP-WCAG/accessibility_mobile_barriers.html

15:25:10 [chaals]

... This compares effects on users with disabilities and users in mobile context.

15:25:40 [chaals]

... Otherwise I have been working through the checkpoints.

15:25:46 [Bryan]

q+

15:25:51 [chaals]

... Think it should go to FPWD this month.

15:26:01 [chaals]

JR: There are lots of blanks to be done first, no?

15:26:18 [chaals]

AC: Thought that it was OK to publish noting that the draft is only a draft and is incomplete.

15:27:03 [chaals]

... waiting for the working groups to give the go-ahead to transition it to FPWD.

15:27:03 [jo]

ack b

15:27:27 [chaals]

Bryan: Do you know date they are asking for comments?

15:27:35 [chaals]

AC: This month.

15:27:52 [chaals]

Bryan: Chasing up in ATT, expect to provide input for this review.

15:27:58 [chaals]

JR: Any idea on timeline?

15:28:07 [chaals]

Bryan: meeting with them next week.

15:29:06 [chaals]

JR: This is a joint spec between the two groups - this group still has input into when/whether transition happens. I am happy for them to publish, but it is a joint document.

15:29:11 [chaals]

s/them/WAI EO/

15:29:28 [jo]

q?

15:29:34 [chaals]

... I have reviewed this in sme detail. Pretty good, but think it needs more work before it goes public.

15:29:54 [chaals]

... Think we want to carefully check the relationships are ones we agree on before we publish.

15:29:58 [chaals]

q+

15:30:10 [jo]

ack c

15:30:15 [chaals]

AC: I am going through the checkpoints in that list

15:31:17 [chaals]

CMN: I think we can publish as is. I have disagreed with classifications, but don't see that we need to plan for three people (mostly Alan) to figure it all out before we publish.

15:31:32 [chaals]

AC: Could add clearer explanation on the draft to clarify the situation

15:31:56 [chaals]

JR: Trying to avoid people giving feedback under misapprehension

15:32:07 [chaals]

... would it be useful to have a call for this?

15:32:13 [chaals]

AC: If people are interested

15:32:35 [chaals]

[CMN unlikely to join such a call, but will try to make time to give more feedback by any such call]

15:32:51 [chaals]

[CMN I have a hard enough time joining the main calls...]

15:33:04 [Bryan]

1+

15:33:06 [dom]

[I would do that as well]

15:33:11 [jo]

+1

15:33:30 [chaals]

[scribe believes the +1 are to providing feedback]

15:33:49 [jo]

[scribe is right]

15:33:55 [chaals]

ACTION Alan: Coordinate a call with WAI EO, provide notice of date and call for feedback as input

15:33:55 [achuter]

ACTION: Alan to plan for a call to review document and coordinate with OEWG on it.

15:33:55 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Alan

15:33:55 [trackbot-ng]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. achuter, atai)

15:34:03 [achuter]

ACTION: achuter to plan for a call to review document and coordinate with OEWG on it.

15:34:04 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-617 - Plan for a call to review document and coordinate with OEWG on it. [on Alan Chuter - due 2008-01-17].

15:34:15 [dom]

s/OEWG/EOWG/g

15:35:03 [chaals]

Topic: Best Practices 2

15:35:34 [dom]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Jan/att-0003/Mobile_Web_Best_Practices_2_0.htm First Draft of BP 2

15:35:34 [chaals]

Bryan: Sent a draft in email to member list. Looking for feedback...

15:36:23 [chaals]

... I am getting administrivia sorted.

15:36:57 [chaals]

JR: The document looks a bit thin...

15:36:59 [edm]

wonders what would the best process for commenting and expanding the current draft - via public mail list?

15:37:19 [dom]

[I think commenting on the public list would be appropriate, indeed]

15:37:36 [chaals]

Bryan: Currently there are just the things we came up with in the meeting. Intent is to establish the goal, how it relates to BP1, what areas are under consideration, how the subject has changed in the last 3 years, etc.

15:37:54 [dom]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Jan/0003.html Bryan's notes on BP2

15:38:22 [chaals]

... Driving thing is exploring capabilities to create great web content.

15:38:45 [chaals]

... Focus is on what works, but also taking advantage of advanced features as available.

15:39:33 [chaals]

... Focus should be more than just content developers, should also include toolkit developers etc.

15:39:50 [chaals]

[CMN notes Judy Brewer's advice to focus on Authoring Tools, about 2 years ago]

15:40:42 [chaals]

Bryan: Devices have moved on. We had a decision not to try and pick an Advanced Delivery Context per se, but to focus on the various advanced features available

15:41:14 [chaals]

... Accessibility is a goal. We have to focus on how to make things great in the mobile context.

15:41:43 [chaals]

JR: Think the resolution of July is superseded by resolution in Boston. We are thinking more specifically about scripting capabilities.

15:41:54 [chaals]

[CMN +1]

15:42:21 [chaals]

JR: Think we can let the document develop its own momentum/direction.

15:42:58 [chaals]

Bryan: Would be good to have more thoughts about how the resolutions we have taken fit together. The list o 17 specific things we came up with shows there are specific challenges.

15:43:51 [chaals]

...should be thinking about technologies that are going to be constrained by the same context, not just "browsers"

15:44:21 [chaals]

... we have a brainstormed list from the meeting. Suggest we try to think "what does the market need in terms of best practices"

15:44:50 [chaals]

JR: We should try to be more systematic, and look at existing sources of information. Do you have a view as to what the existing sources may be?

15:45:04 [dom]

q+

15:45:06 [chaals]

Bryan: Ones I know reflect earlier work of this group. Open to further pointers.

15:45:32 [chaals]

JR: BP1 is derivative of various documents (Sprint, Opera, Nokia, WCAG, and others)

15:45:38 [jo]

ack d

15:46:12 [chaals]

Dom: Reviewing the existing materials is very important. We should go back to some of the sources to find whether they have evolved or had material we didn't take into BP1.

15:46:32 [chaals]

... we may also want to look at inviting some people to the group.

15:48:18 [chaals]

Bryan: Can look at other material and look around. There are a number of organisations who have published information, and we can bring some to the document.

15:48:23 [jo]

[bryan to take an ACTION to raise ISSUE on sources and references and raise awareness on public list that we are looking for such source]

15:48:51 [chaals]

ACTION Bryan: Raise ISSUE on sources and references, raise awareness we are looking for same

15:49:23 [edm]

wonders if it would make sense to re-examine the old /BP1 Scope/ doc [http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp-scope/] to contrast what is different in BP2...

15:50:14 [chaals]

Bryan: Believe there is a shift from focusing on web content to focusing on applications.

15:50:32 [chaals]

... similar issues, but more interaction stuff.

15:50:36 [dom]

[that's my understanding as well]

15:50:40 [chaals]

JR: That's my understanding.

15:50:50 [chaals]

[CMN sounds like what everyone is saying...]

15:51:03 [dom]

["mobile web experiences", nice phrase]

15:52:01 [chaals]

Bryan: BP2 Extends the focus. It is built upon BP1 and follows in the same vein. The fundamentals still apply

15:52:30 [chaals]

... the rest is just a bullet list, will be a description of the problem space etc along teh same organisational lines as BP1. First thing to work on is requirements.

15:52:37 [chaals]

JR: Makes sense to me...

15:52:50 [edm]

q+

15:53:10 [jo]

ack ed

15:54:08 [chaals]

Ed: wondered if we should look at BP1 Scope document as well as BP document to see what is different, what is continued... May help structuring the current phase of work.

15:54:15 [chaals]

Bryan: Sure.

15:55:51 [chaals]

Ed: I am happy to take an ACTION item...

15:56:20 [Magnus]

Magnus has joined #bpwg

15:56:49 [chaals]

ACTION EdM: Review Scope of BP1 to see what it tells us about scope of BP2

15:57:13 [jo]

ACTION EdM to Review Scope of BP1 to see what it tells us about scope of BP2

15:57:32 [jo]

ACTION: EdM to Review Scope of BP1 to see what it tells us about scope of BP2

15:57:32 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - EdM

15:57:35 [dom]

ACTION: Ed to Review Scope of BP1 to see what it tells us about scope of BP2

15:57:35 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-618 - Review Scope of BP1 to see what it tells us about scope of BP2 [on Edward Mitukiewicz - due 2008-01-17].

15:58:17 [edm]

well put

15:58:57 [Zakim]

-SeanP

15:59:24 [dom]

ACTION-592?

15:59:24 [trackbot-ng]

ACTION-592 -- Edward Mitukiewicz to report whether he can be editor of the document who shall not be named -- due 2008-01-03 -- OPEN

15:59:24 [trackbot-ng]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/592

15:59:40 [chaals]

JR: Ed, you have a couple of outstanding action items. Are you going to co-edit this?

15:59:44 [chaals]

EdM: Not sure yet.

15:59:57 [chaals]

... should know early next week.

16:00:28 [chaals]

... think the action I just took includes what I wanted to put in.

16:00:41 [chaals]

JR: Think there is a placeholder for this already. However it emerges, seems good.

16:01:01 [PhilA]

q+ to add a quick AOB

16:01:06 [chaals]

Topic: Other Business?

16:01:08 [PhilA]

ack me

16:01:09 [Zakim]

PhilA, you wanted to add a quick AOB

16:01:10 [jo]

ack p

16:01:21 [PhilA]

I will be speaking at http://www.iir-events.com/IIR-Conf/Telecoms/EventView.aspx?EventID=1388

16:01:23 [chaals]

PA: I *am* paying attention.

16:01:55 [chaals]

PA: I will be speaking at an event in March in Berlin about adaptation, mobileOK, and so forth.

16:02:19 [chaals]

... have a plenary session, and a half-day briefing session before. Hope Kai will be there too.

16:02:46 [PhilA]

zakim, mute me

16:02:47 [Zakim]

PhilA should now be muted

16:03:10 [PhilA]

bye

16:03:10 [chaals]

ADJOURNED

16:03:14 [Zakim]

-Bryan_Sullivan

16:03:14 [Jason]

Jason has left #bpwg

16:03:14 [edm]

bye

16:03:14 [hgerlach]

bye and thanks

16:03:15 [Zakim]

-achuter

16:03:17 [abel_]

bye

16:03:17 [Zakim]

-Dom

16:03:19 [abel_]

abel_ has left #bpwg

16:03:20 [jo]

[thanks CHaals for scribing!]

16:03:20 [chaals]

chaals has left #bpwg

16:03:21 [Magnus]

bye

16:03:23 [Zakim]

-magnus?

16:03:27 [PhilA]

PhilA has left #bpwg

16:03:29 [Zakim]

-Jason

16:03:33 [Zakim]

-jo?

16:03:33 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:03:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/10-bpwg-minutes.html francois

16:03:39 [Zakim]

-PhilA

16:03:43 [Zakim]

-francois

16:03:43 [dom]

zakim, list attendees

16:03:49 [Zakim]

-Ed_Mitukiewicz

16:03:53 [Zakim]

-abel

16:03:55 [Zakim]

-Shahriar

16:04:07 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Shahriar, abel, +1.503.539.aaaa, Miguel, francois, Bryan_Sullivan, jo?, Dom, Heiko, Ed_Mitukiewicz, PhilA, Jason, chaals, magnus?, SeanP,

16:04:09 [dom]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:04:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/10-bpwg-minutes.html dom

16:04:12 [Zakim]

... achuter, Sean_Owen

16:04:16 [Zakim]

-chaals

16:04:29 [Zakim]

-Sean_Owen

16:06:00 [jo]

jo has left #bpwg

16:11:27 [skarim]

skarim has left #bpwg

16:35:01 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, Heiko, in MWI_BPWG()10:00AM

16:35:04 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended

16:35:05 [Zakim]

Attendees were Shahriar, abel, +1.503.539.aaaa, Miguel, francois, Bryan_Sullivan, jo?, Dom, Heiko, Ed_Mitukiewicz, PhilA, Jason, chaals, magnus?, SeanP, achuter, Sean_Owen

18:30:05 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #bpwg