IRC log of xhtml on 2008-01-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:48:04 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #xhtml

13:48:04 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/09-xhtml-irc

13:48:30 [Roland]

Zakim, list

13:48:30 [Zakim]

I see WAI_ERTWG()8:30AM, Team_(rifc)13:03Z, Team_W3M()8:00AM active

13:48:32 [Zakim]

also scheduled at this time is IA_XHTML2()9:00AM

13:48:50 [Roland]

Zakim, this is XHTML2

13:48:50 [Zakim]

Roland, I see IA_XHTML2()9:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be XHTML2".

13:49:11 [Roland]

Zakim, this will be XHTML2

13:49:11 [Zakim]

ok, Roland; I see IA_XHTML2()9:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes

13:52:28 [Roland]

Meeting: XHTML WG

13:52:57 [RolandM]

Meeting: XHTML WG

13:53:30 [Roland]

Chair: Roland Merrick

13:54:36 [Roland]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0003.html

13:56:59 [RolandM]

RolandM has changed the topic to: XHTML2 WG - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0003.html

13:58:51 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:00AM has now started

13:58:58 [Zakim]

+Roland

14:01:48 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:01:48 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:01:50 [Zakim]

-Roland

14:01:51 [Zakim]

+Roland

14:01:52 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:02:10 [Steven]

zakim, drop steven

14:02:10 [Zakim]

Steven is being disconnected

14:02:11 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:02:26 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:02:26 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:02:27 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:02:43 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

14:03:02 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has joined #xhtml

14:03:28 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #xhtml

14:03:40 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

14:03:40 [Zakim]

the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

14:04:30 [Zakim]

+ +20876aaaa

14:04:38 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am aaaa

14:04:38 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

14:04:50 [Zakim]

+??P16

14:05:16 [Steven]

zakim, ??P16 is Yam

14:05:16 [Zakim]

+Yam; got it

14:05:24 [yamx]

yamx has joined #xhtml

14:05:40 [Roland]

Regrets: Rich, Tina, Gregory

14:06:08 [yamx]

I joined, but I joind IRC after my call, so, I don't know how to identify me.

14:06:28 [Steven]

zakim, yam is yamx

14:06:28 [Zakim]

+yamx; got it

14:07:59 [Steven]

Scribe: Steven

14:08:14 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0003

14:08:20 [Steven]

Topic: Announcements

14:08:28 [Roland]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-access/

14:08:33 [Steven]

Roland: THe Access module went to FPWD recently

14:08:40 [Steven]

s/TH/Th/

14:08:57 [Steven]

Roland: We have had a request to look at the selectors API

14:09:01 [Steven]

... and would like comments

14:09:05 [Steven]

... any takers?

14:10:03 [Steven]

Steven: I'm OK with looking at it, but I would think that Mark would be a good candidate

14:10:11 [Steven]

Yam: Is it like CSS elements?

14:10:26 [Steven]

Mark: Yes, a way of selecting elements programmatically

14:10:45 [Steven]

Mark: OK, I'll take a look

14:11:12 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven and Mark to review selectors API by 31 Jan 2008

14:11:23 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-api/

14:11:43 [Steven]

Steven: Oh, it's a last call

14:11:54 [Steven]

... so it;s a last call review

14:12:00 [Steven]

s/it;s/it's/

14:14:25 [Steven]

Steven: While we're talking announcements, Yahoo announced that they are using XForms for their mobile widgets

14:14:51 [Steven]

Roland: It can lead to a discussion about namespaces for us

14:15:00 [Steven]

Topic: Testing XHTML Basic 1.1

14:15:08 [Steven]

Roland: Yam, what is the status?

14:15:44 [Steven]

Yam: Before I contacted our technical team, Steven mentioned that there was an implementation of inputmode somewhere?

14:15:54 [Steven]

Steven: Did I? I don't remember

14:16:25 [Steven]

Shane: Yes, it was Openwave, but I haven't been able to contact anyone there

14:16:39 [Steven]

Yam: Openwave have supplied their browser to [someone]

14:17:07 [Steven]

... Roland: So we need an implementation of inputmode

14:17:18 [Steven]

Yam: But I assume we need two implementations

14:17:19 [krijnh]

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14:18:02 [Steven]

Steven: Well, since it is an optional feature, we only need one working implementation, and show it works correctly

14:18:16 [Steven]

... we don't need two implementations

14:18:56 [Steven]

Yam: I have provided the test report of our implementation

14:20:09 [Steven]

Steven: So we need to create a test report that summarises the test results, shows we have achieved our exit criteria, ans request PR transition

14:20:32 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to bring test results of XHTML Basic 1.1 together

14:21:06 [Steven]

Roland: What is holding us up with Modularization?

14:24:08 [Steven]

Steven: Well, there is some problem with a zero-length CR period, so I propose we request CR, and then talk about the length of CR during the call. I would like Roland and Shane to be on the call

14:24:17 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to organsie CR call for M12N

14:24:37 [Steven]

s/nsie/nise/

14:24:42 [ShaneM]

XHTML 1.1 Second Edition is dependent on it.

14:24:50 [Steven]

Topic: ARIA

14:25:04 [Steven]

Roland: we'll skip this until Rich is able to be here

14:25:14 [Steven]

Topic: RDFa on html element

14:26:43 [Steven]

Shane: The current DTD doesn't allow the RDFa attributes on the html element

14:27:06 [Steven]

Steven: I would strongly support such an addition

14:27:12 [Steven]

Roland: Which DTD?

14:27:26 [Steven]

Steven: The XHTML 1.1+RDFa

14:28:14 [Steven]

Shane: But this change is not in M12N 2e

14:28:23 [Steven]

... such as class and id on the html element

14:28:46 [Steven]

... and it is now too late to add it, siunce we are past last call

14:28:50 [Steven]

s/2e/1.1/

14:29:12 [Steven]

Shane: Do we really need it for RDFa?

14:29:21 [Steven]

s/Shane/Mark/

14:29:57 [Steven]

Steven: @about on the root element

14:30:10 [Steven]

Shane: Oh wait, the prose says that id should be on the root

14:30:35 [Steven]

... so I can fix that, it is an error in the implementation

14:30:56 [Steven]

... and by the way, head doesn't take class either

14:31:07 [Steven]

Steven: Aren't they in the same collections?

14:31:19 [Steven]

Shane: Yes, but we don't use them on head and html

14:32:08 [Steven]

... we use the id attribute directly

14:32:17 [Steven]

... I will update the implementation right now

14:32:31 [Steven]

... and make the changes in XHTML 1.1+RDFa

14:33:08 [Steven]

Roland: So we are happy with this change?

14:33:12 [Steven]

Steven: Yes

14:33:49 [Steven]

Topic: Taking CURIEs to last call

14:34:16 [Steven]

Steven: Not enough people to vote on it today

14:35:14 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven create a questionnaire to take CURIEs to last call

14:35:33 [Steven]

Roland: Make it twp weeks for voting

14:35:39 [Steven]

s/twp/two/

14:35:55 [Steven]

Topic: Legacy module

14:36:25 [Roland]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Aug/0009

14:36:45 [Steven]

Shane: I suggested moving h1-6 into the legacy module for XHTML2

14:36:58 [Steven]

... and then peiople started asking about the legacy module

14:37:57 [Roland]

s/peiople/people/

14:38:05 [Steven]

Steven: It's a sort of hotchpotch

14:38:19 [Steven]

Roland: We should clean it up and treat it seriously for M12N 2

14:39:39 [Steven]

Steven: It might be a set of legacy modules, not just one

14:40:12 [Steven]

... since someone might want to use h1-6 but not applet

14:40:33 [Steven]

SHane: THen let's not call it 'legacy' module, but give it a name and mark it deprecated

14:40:35 [Steven]

Steven: Good

14:40:40 [Steven]

s/TH/Th/

14:40:45 [Steven]

s/SH/Sh/

14:41:16 [Steven]

Steven: Dates for FtF?

14:41:23 [Steven]

Roland: Feb 18-20

14:41:51 [Steven]

Steven: Feb 19 is my birthday, so we'll have to party that evening!

14:42:02 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to create FtF page

14:42:25 [Steven]

Topic: Fix missing elements in M12N

14:42:33 [Steven]

Shane: I was wrong, that is fine

14:42:48 [Steven]

Topic: add inputmode to XHTML 1.1 2e

14:43:00 [Steven]

Steven: Sound like a good idea

14:43:08 [Steven]

s/ound/ounds/

14:43:21 [Steven]

Steven: Mostly harmless

14:43:28 [Steven]

Shane: Not sure how we do it editorially

14:43:46 [Steven]

... since inputmode is a module in Basic 1.1

14:44:09 [Steven]

Steven: It's not in M12N 1.1?

14:44:13 [Steven]

Shane: Of course not

14:44:48 [Steven]

Steven: That would mean we have inputmode in three places

14:45:10 [Steven]

Shane: It's not a problem to reference the module in Basic

14:45:16 [Steven]

Steven: OK, then let's do that

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14:47:18 [Steven]

Roland: Is there value to making a separate document?

14:47:50 [Steven]

Steven: We have three languages that uses it now, so there is a vbalue, but it is not hard to reference it from the Basic spec

14:47:55 [Steven]

Shane: Is it in XHTML2

14:48:04 [Steven]

Steven: Yes, as part of XForms

14:48:11 [Steven]

Roalnd: Which namespace?

14:48:18 [Steven]

Steven: Not yet resolved by us

14:48:35 [Steven]

s/Roal/Rola/

14:49:04 [Steven]

Steven: Action?

14:49:08 [Steven]

Roland: It is already there

14:49:39 [Roland]

Existing action on Shane to add to XHTML 1.1 SE : http://www.w3.org/2007/07/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action01

14:50:15 [Steven]

Topic: CURIE issues - datatype etc

14:50:30 [Roland]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Mar/0038.html

14:51:42 [Steven]

Roland: What is the value space od CURIE?

14:51:46 [Steven]

Steven: URI

14:51:53 [Steven]

s/od/of/

14:52:40 [Steven]

Shane: Disagree

14:53:18 [Steven]

Mark: If you compared x;a and y:a and x and y were the same mappings, would they be equal or not?

14:53:29 [Steven]

Shane: I think they are not equal

14:53:40 [Steven]

Steven: I think they should be equal

14:53:58 [Steven]

s/x;a/x:a/

14:54:19 [Steven]

Shane: I don't think they are compact URIs but scoped names

14:54:53 [Steven]

Mark: In sparql for instance they are compact URIs

14:55:21 [Steven]

Present+Christina

14:55:27 [Steven]

Chair: Roland

14:56:31 [markbirbeck]

Mark: They *must* be expanded.

14:57:58 [Steven]

Shane: When looking something up you get it from the DOM and look it up as prefix+extension

14:58:23 [Steven]

Mark: I disagree, you must expand it, because for instance ARIA uses the RDF processing

14:58:33 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:58:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

14:59:08 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

15:00:18 [Steven]

Shane: Today if I use IE 7, a CURIE doesn't get expanded

15:00:32 [Steven]

Mark: That's an implementation issue

15:01:18 [Steven]

... so doesn't affect the answer to the question "what is the value space of a CURIE"

15:01:52 [Steven]

Shane: If I say "get elements by role name" what should I use?

15:02:06 [Steven]

Mark: It should be the expanded name

15:03:10 [Steven]

... it is not enough to search for "x:a"

15:03:22 [Steven]

Steven: Since you don't know what prefixes people have used

15:04:38 [Steven]

... if someone produces a script library, they won't know which prefixes you have used

15:05:01 [Steven]

Mark: You are searching for a full URI

15:05:06 [Steven]

Roland: We are over time

15:05:13 [Steven]

... let's try and resolve it via email

15:05:19 [Steven]

... who will start the thread

15:05:26 [Steven]

s/thread/thread?/

15:05:38 [Steven]

SHane: Everyone seems to disagree with me, so I think we are done

15:05:44 [Steven]

... the value space is a URI

15:05:47 [Steven]

s/SH

15:06:04 [Steven]

RESOLVED: the value space of a CURIE is URI

15:07:04 [Steven]

ACTION: Mark to reply to value space of CURIE email

15:07:13 [Steven]

Shane: is it IRI or URI?

15:07:37 [Steven]

Steven: URI I think, since I believe that IRI is a lexical dataspace, whose vlaue space is URI

15:07:46 [Steven]

s/vla/val/

15:08:03 [Steven]

Mark: Looking at the mail, it looks like we have to discuss further

15:08:49 [Steven]

Roland: We should look at the other iussues so we can go to last call

15:09:10 [Steven]

... so we can't decide to go to last call yet

15:09:16 [Steven]

s/iuss/iss/

15:09:25 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

15:09:30 [Zakim]

-Roland

15:09:47 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

15:09:48 [ShaneM]

I think that there might be some value in preserving the expanded prefix separate from the reference in the CURIE value space

15:09:49 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:09:51 [Zakim]

-yamx

15:09:52 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:00AM has ended

15:09:53 [Zakim]

Attendees were Roland, Steven, ShaneM, +20876aaaa, markbirbeck, yamx

15:10:09 [ShaneM]

it would make it easier to search for, for example, all elements that have a role in a specific value space

15:10:48 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:10:48 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

15:11:05 [markbirbeck]

Mark: Ah...the original question points to an answer that is somewhere in between Shane's view and Mark/Steven's view. Peter Johnston says that if CURIEs are to be a superset of QNames then the two parts (prefix and suffix) must be preserved.

15:11:44 [ShaneM]

as you say Mark, implementation detail. But I can see some value in it

15:11:50 [Roland]

rrsagent, make log public

15:12:01 [Steven]

That's what QNames do, but QNames have a tighter syntax than CURIES

15:12:23 [Roland]

rrsagent, publish minutes

15:12:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/09-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

15:12:25 [Steven]

You are allowed to split a CURIE in different places and stiull have the same value

15:12:46 [markbirbeck]

Interesting idea Shane...do you think we should support @accessrole="wai:*"? :)

15:13:00 [markbirbeck]

(Your previous point......)

15:13:36 [markbirbeck]

Steven--comparison would still require combining the two parts.

15:13:43 [Steven]

s/SHane/Shane/G

15:14:05 [ShaneM]

technically speaking, a CURIE prefix could be "" and the reference could be a complete URI. Not sure what that means tho.

15:14:59 [ShaneM]

Actually, given that a prefix can be anything preserving it has little value. It is only a complete URI *or* the original unexpanded value that will be meaningful for any processor imho. portably anyway.

16:26:54 [Zakim]

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16:42:18 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:42:18 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/09-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

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