13:59:42 RRSAgent has joined #awwsw 13:59:42 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-awwsw-irc 14:00:02 zakim, this will be awwsw 14:00:02 ok, dbooth; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start now 14:00:26 TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started 14:00:33 +alanr 14:00:52 thanks 14:01:35 +DBooth 14:02:02 i started a page http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis of first principles analysis... consensus i hope 14:02:32 +TimBL 14:02:54 +Noah_Mendelsohn 14:02:58 noah has joined #awwsw 14:03:00 zakim, +1 617 253-8825 is jar 14:03:00 I don't understand '+1 617 253-8825 is jar', jar 14:03:04 zakim, who is here? 14:03:04 On the phone I see alanr, DBooth, TimBL, Noah_Mendelsohn 14:03:07 On IRC I see noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, dbooth, jar, trackbot-ng 14:06:15 timbl has joined #awwsw 14:06:20 Stuart has joined #awwsw 14:06:36 http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswTopicsBrainstormPage 14:07:21 +??P22 14:07:45 zakim, ??P22 is me? 14:07:45 +me?; got it 14:08:07 zakim, ??P22 is Stuart 14:08:07 I already had ??P22 as me?, Stuart 14:08:08 +Alan.a 14:08:19 zakim, alanr is really jar 14:08:19 +jar; got it 14:08:40 zakim, ?me is really Stuart 14:08:40 sorry, Stuart, I do not recognize a party named '?me' 14:09:08 http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis 14:09:13 zakim, me? is really Stuart 14:09:13 +Stuart; got it 14:09:44 http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis 14:09:49 alanr has joined #awwsw 14:10:12 Crude beginning on a consensus document http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis 14:11:09 scribe:alanr 14:11:20 Scribe: alanr 14:13:29 tim: can't define 200 exactly, in english - would be a mistake. Take a tutorial. Define in terms of how interactions go in protocols 14:13:41 tim: Define what information resource is, is a trap 14:14:07 tim: What's useful is the content of the message (?) 14:14:38 what happens when you get a 302 then a xxx and then a xxx, what does that mean? 14:14:39 I like the idea of being able to explain what it means when you get a 303 followed by a 302 followed by a 200. 14:15:17 tim: tabulator does generate triples and does use them 14:15:41 Tim: What is usefulis the semantc s of th messag e-- eg wht a 200 mean in terms of what he body related to the abstract document. 14:16:14 q+ to say that key to me is putting proposed RDF on the table of what these things mean 14:16:20 jonathan: address tabulator but generalize 14:16:56 and what's a document? 14:17:12 Jonathan: didn't see what 200 concluded 14:17:35 methinks.. something with a document oriented interface :-) 14:17:45 Tim: concludes its a document, and opens up a document view. For image/ opens an image view 14:18:08 tim 303: won't give you an option of looking at the document 14:18:28 tim: 302 generates, as part of document containing the link, gives warning 14:18:32 eg. a rc robot arm could be controlled via an exchange of 'document-like' messages. 14:18:53 q+ to ask tim about 200 14:18:56 q+ stuart 14:19:09 q? 14:19:10 ack dbooth 14:19:10 dbooth, you wanted to say that key to me is putting proposed RDF on the table of what these things mean 14:20:09 can the URI 'identify' a robot arm rather than a document 'implied' but the message exchange. 14:21:41 { ?x http:resresentation ?r } .. 14:21:45 jonathan: Are the tabulators rule in one place? 14:21:46 http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/js/rdf/sources.js 14:22:03 FWIW the code in wwhich tabulator has hard coded inference 14:22:36 if (xhr.status-0 == 200) { 14:22:36 addType(tabulator.ns.link('Document')); 14:24:03 noah: asking about image/ 14:24:37 noah: If I have a resource that I know is a text doc, but for whatever reason I have a photographed copy of the page. This seems to imply that the media type bounds the nature of the document to the image. 14:24:50 timbl: Yes, that's not quite right, but it's a good hack. 14:24:55 noah: say i have a resource, a text resource, that i have as an image of a page...? 14:25:06 Note addType pecolates back up through the 301 an 302 and adds thr typre s to them too 14:25:34 The conclusion that something 'is' an image from hte image/* contenttype is a hack, not architecturally solid. 14:25:48 noah: We should say that the nature of the media type does not further bound the nature of the resource. 14:26:07 dbooth, you type faster than i do 14:26:14 link:Document owl:disjointWith foaf:Person. 14:26:45 q? 14:26:50 ack noah 14:26:50 noah, you wanted to ask tim about 200 14:27:06 ack noah 14:27:15 ack stuart 14:27:43 q+ alan to ask: httprange-14 says "If an "http" resource responds to a GET request" - does this tell us what a resource is - it can "respond" 14:28:26 q+ to suggest some more uses for having the classes allocated to things. 14:30:00 stuart: robot arm responding with 200s reporting position, is the robot arm a document? (tabulator says yes) 14:30:09 "What you want to say about it?" is very much like "what inferences do we want to make?" 14:30:45 noah: this is just httprange-14 14:30:52 ack alan 14:30:52 alan, you wanted to ask: httprange-14 says "If an "http" resource responds to a GET request" - does this tell us what a resource is - it can "respond" 14:31:00 alan is next pls 14:31:01 My opinion: To be kosher, the robot URI that returns 200 would be the URI of the HTTP *interface* of the robot. 14:31:31 jar: let's talk about 200 where we already believe the thing is a document, not other cases, for now 14:31:34 is a form that lets you tweak a robot, a document? 14:31:48 I agree with starting with "What inferences do we want to make?", and I want to see RDF on the table. 14:32:18 q? 14:33:55 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#httpRange-14 14:33:59 alanr: httprange-14 is unclear - what was the intent re the language? is it the really the resource that responds? 14:34:08 agreed on 15 Jun 2005 14:34:12 agreed on 15 Jun 2005 14:34:15 The TAG provides advice to the community that they may mint "http" URIs for any resource provided that they follow this simple rule for the sake of removing ambiguity: 14:34:16 * If an "http" resource responds to a GET request with a 2xx response, then the resource identified by that URI is an information resource; 14:34:18 * If an "http" resource responds to a GET request with a 303 (See Other) response, then the resource identified by that URI could be any resource; 14:34:19 * If an "http" resource responds to a GET request with a 4xx (error) response, then the nature of the resource is unknown. 14:35:07 timbl: it's not cleanly put. should say ... something about the server ... 14:35:31 alanr: requests some action on this language 14:35:43 Should be something like "If the HTTP status code resulting from a GET request on a URI is 2xx . . . " 14:35:45 on the part of the tag. timbl: ok 14:36:02 FWIW... I prefer to think of HTTP requests as questions being asked of Web Infrastructure and responses as being generated by web infrastructure. 14:36:55 http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswHome 14:37:15 not all requests make it to the web server (caches may respond instead); 14:38:33 I want our main work product to be RDF and inference rules. 14:38:54 I think other wording improvements may fall out from that. 14:40:33 I have put RDF on the table, and will continue to do so. I haven't looked specifically at what tabulator does. 14:40:55 http://esw.w3.org/topic/ErrataHttpRange14 14:41:18 jar: asking timbl what best process is for getting tabulator's inferences recorded in the wiki. timbl short on time 14:41:24 
14:41:29  s/inferences/inference rules/
14:42:24  timbl: is putting them in now
14:42:30  ?
14:44:11  http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis
14:44:26  jar: Some agents may want to be conservative in the inferences that they make, in case the server is hostile, while others may more liberal, like tabulator.
14:45:25  alanr: jar is talking about default reasoning, perhaps.  aggressive inferences are deaults
14:45:31  alanr: You can have a logic in which the aggressive things are assumptions based on getting extra info.
14:47:07  httprange-14 boundary case: the number 3.  not a boundary case: a person.
14:48:26  alanr: wants to be clear: are you manipulating the form or manipulating the robot? ambiguous - 
14:48:52  -Alan.a
14:48:52  timbl: a form is a just like document
14:49:22  zakim, who is here
14:49:22  Stuart, you need to end that query with '?'
14:49:24  zakim, who is here?
14:49:25  On the phone I see jar, DBooth, TimBL, Noah_Mendelsohn, Stuart
14:49:28  On IRC I see alanr, Stuart, timbl, noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, dbooth, jar, trackbot-ng
14:49:35  just dropped. will call back
14:49:49  yes
14:49:57  +Alan_Ruttenberg
14:50:26  noah, i can't do justice to what you're saying
14:51:13  tim wants to say "document" instead of "information resource", noah doesn't
14:51:34  q?
14:51:44  ack timbl
14:51:44  timbl, you wanted to suggest some more uses for having the classes allocated to things.
14:52:10  tim: having disjoint classes gives teeth to this
14:52:19  timbl: disjoint classes give teeth to the effort
14:52:24  oops
14:53:52  timbl: tabulator is becoming an editor - disjoint classes will matter
14:53:55  tim: tabulator is an editor now. The more you know about this the thing the better the editor can help you
14:53:57  i have to drop off the phone now, but i'm strongly in favor of: 1. specific use cases; and 2. Discussing some specific  RDF / rules.  I think these will best help us forward.
14:54:13  -DBooth
14:54:57  +1 to warnings
14:55:38  q+
14:57:46  stuart: can we do some backward chaining - start with inferences one would *like* to be able to do
14:58:02  I would like us to discuss the RDF / rules I've drafted next week.
14:58:12  s/next week/next meeting/
14:58:33  timbl: alan threw down the gauntlet - how do i know whether a web server has lied?
14:58:36  Though I may have a better version by then. :)
14:59:17  stuart doesn't believe this is a small enough question
15:00:15  alanr: e.g. "this resource's responses will always be images" - a non-image response would be wrong
15:00:43  -Stuart
15:00:52  -Alan_Ruttenberg
15:00:53  -Noah_Mendelsohn
15:01:31  Narrow escape from the Modelling Time rathole, a fine hole of great, and not uninteresting to explore.
15:01:32  so, combination of statements about a resource, including, but not limited to http responses, should be able to say something wrong
15:01:43  I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-awwsw-minutes.html alanr
15:01:58  rrsagent, set log world-readable
15:02:08  -jar
15:02:50  rrsagent, make logs public
15:04:32  rrsagent, draft minutes
15:04:32  I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth
15:05:49  ok, now how do minutes get edited? and by whom?
15:06:18  jar, download them, edit them, and email them.  :)
15:06:29  there are other ways too
15:06:33  ah.
15:08:11  to edit minutes on the same day, i often just do s/// and i/// commands and then "rrsagent, draft minutes" again until it looks good enough.
15:23:30  FWIW, I use my IRC client to create a local log of the IRC session.  I download David's perl script from http://dev.w3.org/2002/scribe/ .  I then edit the log with emacs, and use the perl script to format, iterating until I've got about what I want.  Then, usually, I do a bit of editing on the final HTML to get out a few things that the script puts in.  For me, that's faster and more flexible
15:23:37  than using s///, etc.
15:23:58  Anyway, it seems that there's lots of differing  personal preference in this area.  good luck
15:24:07  gotta go, bye
15:35:02  disconnecting the lone participant, TimBL, in TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM
15:35:09  TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended
15:35:14  Attendees were DBooth, TimBL, Noah_Mendelsohn, Alan, jar, Stuart, Alan_Ruttenberg
16:59:22  Zakim has left #awwsw