Chatlog 2009-07-01

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00:00:00 <ewallace> REGRETS: Jie Bao, Rinke Hoekstra, Zhe Wu
00:00:00 <ewallace> CHAIR: Ian Horrocks
16:58:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:58:20 <RRSAgent> logging to
16:58:47 <IanH> zakim, this will be owl
16:58:47 <Zakim> ok, IanH, I see SW_OWL()1:00PM already started
16:58:51 <ewallace> scribenick:ewallace
16:59:02 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to:
16:59:12 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
16:59:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, Evan_Wallace
16:59:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, bmotik, zimmer, ewallace, trackbot
16:59:22 <IanH> zakim, ??P0 is IanH
16:59:22 <Zakim> +IanH; got it
16:59:26 <Zakim> +zimmer
16:59:28 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
16:59:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, Evan_Wallace, zimmer
16:59:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, bmotik, zimmer, ewallace, trackbot
16:59:58 <Zakim> +??P9
17:00:05 <bmotik> Zakim, ??P9 is me
17:00:06 <MarkusK_> MarkusK_ has joined #owl
17:00:08 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
17:00:11 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:00:12 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:00:41 <Zakim> +??P6
17:00:45 <sandro> sandro has joined #owl
17:00:51 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:00:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, Evan_Wallace, zimmer, bmotik (muted), MarkusK_
17:00:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see sandro, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, bmotik, zimmer, ewallace, trackbot
17:01:12 <ewallace> topic: Admin
17:01:21 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:01:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, Evan_Wallace, zimmer, bmotik (muted), MarkusK_
17:01:23 <ewallace> subtopic: Roll call
17:01:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see sandro, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, bmotik, zimmer, ewallace, trackbot
17:01:25 <ewallace> PRESENT: sandro, MarkusK_, IanH, bmotik, zimmer, ewallace, msmith, mschneid, uli, bcuencagrau, achille
17:01:36 <ewallace> subtopic: Agenda amendments
17:01:37 <ewallace> none
17:01:38 <Zakim> +Sandro
17:01:47 <ewallace> subtopic: Previous minutes
17:02:12 <ewallace> resolved: accepted previous minutes
17:02:22 <uli> uli has joined #owl
17:02:23 <ewallace>
17:02:35 <ewallace> subtopic: Action items status
17:03:07 <bcuencagrau> bcuencagrau has joined #owl
17:03:09 <ewallace> Pending actions 341, 342, 343 done.
17:03:30 <ewallace> topic: issues/comments
17:03:39 <Zakim> +??P1
17:03:49 <bmotik> ZAkim, unmute me
17:03:49 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:03:51 <ewallace> subtopic: Boris Motik's proposal to clarify the definitions of datatype maps
17:03:53 <bcuencagrau> bcuencagrau has joined #owl
17:03:54 <uli> zakim, ??P1 is me
17:03:54 <Zakim> +uli; got it
17:04:04 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:04:04 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:04:16 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:04:16 <Zakim> bmotik was not muted, bmotik
17:04:39 <Zakim> +bglimm
17:04:41 <ewallace> bmotik: The point of this is to clarify certain things
17:04:47 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, bglimm is bcuencagrau
17:04:47 <Zakim> +bcuencagrau; got it
17:04:56 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, mute me
17:04:56 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted
17:04:59 <ewallace> ... The syntax doc allowed additional data maps for instance
17:05:05 <Zakim> +msmith
17:05:09 <msmith> msmith has joined #owl
17:05:33 <ewallace> ... The proposal is to take conformance wrt DL ontology documents into syntax.
17:05:59 <ewallace> ... We would make the documents more consistent this way
17:06:12 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:06:12 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:06:13 <IanH> q?
17:06:28 <msmith> q+
17:06:36 <IanH> ack msmith
17:06:47 <ewallace> ianh: What I understand is that you are just suggesting moving things around to make docs more consistent.
17:07:04 <ewallace> msmith: From what I have seen this is a useful clarification
17:07:26 <ewallace> ianh: Since nobody is speaking against this, lets do it.
17:08:01 <IanH> PROPOSED: Boris to clarify the definitions of datatype maps as per
17:08:09 <bmotik> +1
17:08:11 <bcuencagrau> +1
17:08:11 <uli> +1
17:08:14 <msmith> +1
17:08:15 <IanH> +1
17:08:16 <ewallace> ewallace: +1
17:08:18 <zimmer> +1
17:08:19 <MarkusK_> +1
17:08:25 <IanH> q?
17:08:30 <sandro> +0
17:08:40 <IanH> RESOLVED: Boris to clarify the definitions of datatype maps as per
17:09:21 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:09:21 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:10:02 <bmotik> ACTION: bmotik2 to Clarity the description of datatype maps in Syntax and Conformance
17:10:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-344 - Clarity the description of datatype maps in Syntax and Conformance [on Boris Motik - due 2009-07-08].
17:10:05 <ewallace> subtopic: M. Schneider's question on "forest-like anonymous individuals"
17:10:31 <ewallace> ianh: "forest-like anonymous individuals" issue was resolved by email
17:10:54 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:10:54 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:11:20 <ewallace> subtopic:  M. Schneider's proposal "to make certain ontology properties of OWL 2 Full into annotation properties" 
17:11:24 <ewallace> Michael Schneider not present, so 3rd issue deferred to next meeting.
17:11:38 <ewallace> topic: Implementation and Testing
17:11:39 <ewallace> subtopic: Implementations
17:11:40 <ewallace> subsubtopic: Reasoners
17:11:59 <Achille> Achille has joined #owl
17:11:59 <uli> we are
17:12:04 <msmith> q+
17:12:05 <ewallace> ianh: Hermit is passing all the tests, so we have at least one conformant OWL2 DL reasoner
17:12:09 <IanH> q?
17:12:10 <uli> the OWL API going forward
17:12:18 <IanH> ack msmith
17:12:19 <uli> and Fact++ is getting closer as well
17:12:20 <ewallace> ianh: any other implementation results to report?
17:12:41 <Zakim> +[IBM]
17:12:55 <Achille> Zakim, IBM is me
17:12:55 <Zakim> +Achille; got it
17:13:09 <Zakim> -Achille
17:13:17 <ewallace> msmith: There is a version of the OWL API that is OWL2 compliant (if not fully)
17:13:33 <ewallace> ianh: What about pellet itself and OWL 2?
17:13:42 <Zakim> +[IBM]
17:13:56 <ewallace> msmith: Working on datatype area, hope to be done by July 15.
17:14:00 <Achille> Zakim, IBM i sme
17:14:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'IBM i sme', Achille
17:14:03 <uli> zakim, unmute me
17:14:03 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
17:14:09 <IanH> q?
17:14:11 <Achille> Zakim, IBM is me
17:14:11 <Zakim> +Achille; got it
17:14:32 <ewallace> uli: I understand Dmitri is working on Fact++
17:14:38 <msmith> Dmitry did send me test results for FaCT++
17:14:46 <ewallace> uli: don't know about OWL API progress.
17:14:52 <msmith> I do have Cel results as well
17:15:12 <MarkusK_> yes, CEL already uses the test harness.
17:15:16 <msmith> q+
17:15:36 <MarkusK_> q+
17:16:09 <IanH> q?
17:16:26 <ewallace> ianh: Uli do you know anything about progress by Racer people?
17:16:37 <IanH> q?
17:17:03 <ewallace> uli: Much of this progress will come with the reasoners after the OWL API.
17:17:08 <IanH> q?
17:17:16 <IanH> ack msmith
17:17:16 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:17:18 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:17:25 <uli> omit: hurray!
17:17:42 <ewallace> msmith: Cel and quonto have submitted results to me, but haven't yet updated results page
17:18:02 <ewallace> ... will update by the 15th
17:18:13 <IanH> q?
17:18:20 <IanH> ack MarkusK_
17:18:44 <ewallace> markusk: Jeff Pan has implemented a profile reasoner.
17:19:06 <MarkusK_> The tool now is called "Trowl"
17:19:40 <ewallace> ianh: Will pellet work include OWLgres?
17:19:56 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:19:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, Evan_Wallace, zimmer, bmotik (muted), MarkusK_, Sandro, uli (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, Achille
17:19:57 <ewallace> msmith: Not sure this will happen before the 15th.
17:19:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see Achille, msmith, bcuencagrau, uli, sandro, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, bmotik, zimmer, ewallace, trackbot
17:20:05 <MarkusK_>  Trowl:
17:20:22 <IanH> q?
17:21:20 <ewallace> ianh: Achille is anything happening with respect to SHER?
17:22:02 <msmith> Much of OWL 2 EL is within OWL 1, so presumably, SHER could still pass some of the tests.
17:22:04 <ewallace> achille : Only in maintenance mode now, so we don't expect OWL 2 work.
17:22:05 <IanH> Will it help if I contact someone at IBM?  Can you give me a name?
17:22:11 <Achille> Sharon Adler
17:22:36 <ewallace> ianh: I think that covers most of the implementations that we know about.
17:22:39 <MarkusK_> q+
17:22:53 <IanH> ack MarkusK_
17:23:11 <ewallace> markusk: STI Innsbruck will build an OWL 2 datalog engine.
17:23:50 <IanH> q?
17:24:30 <IanH> ack uli
17:24:31 <uli> I seem to remember that
17:24:31 <ewallace> subsubtopic: Species validation
17:24:31 <msmith> We have profile validators, but no Full vs. DL validator.
17:24:34 <IanH> q?
17:24:58 <IanH> q?
17:25:05 <ewallace> ianh: this seems to be resting on Mathew's shoulders
17:26:05 <ewallace> msmith: Our ontologies will only correctly detect profile species for DL ontologies
17:26:10 <IanH> q?
17:26:11 <ewallace> ... because of repair.
17:26:17 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:26:17 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:26:36 <ewallace> ianh: How big of an issue is this?
17:26:40 <IanH> q?
17:27:39 <ewallace> subtopic: Test suite and Test results
17:27:49 <msmith> I think so
17:28:10 <ewallace> ianh: Is 15 July the date we said to pull shutters down on test suites and test criteria?
17:28:14 <IanH> q?
17:28:15 <MarkusK_> q+
17:28:27 <IanH> q?
17:28:30 <ewallace> msmith: There is back and forth on some DL tests.
17:28:51 <schneid> schneid has joined #owl
17:28:55 <IanH> ack MarkusK_
17:28:56 <ewallace> ... For Full tests we need mechanisms for moving them forward.
17:29:19 <ewallace> markus: Regarding OWL Full tests by Michael, we expect them next week
17:29:31 <ewallace> ... some 700 tests.
17:29:38 <IanH> q?
17:29:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:29:48 <ewallace> ianh: Is this many tests sensible?
17:30:00 <schneid> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
17:30:00 <Zakim> +schneid; got it
17:30:04 <IanH> q?
17:30:05 <schneid> zakim, mute me
17:30:06 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted
17:30:15 <ewallace> ianh: we really need to look at that as it would change the character of the test set.
17:30:15 <schneid> zakim, unmute me
17:30:15 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted
17:30:40 <ewallace> mschneid: It's true, 700.
17:31:05 <ewallace> ianh: We are concerned that this is a large number, creating a large burden for
17:31:14 <ewallace> ... testers and test harness.
17:31:36 <ewallace> mschneid: Its true this will double the size of the test suite.
17:31:51 <ewallace> ... everything is covered by only a single test case.
17:31:52 <sandro> q+ 
17:32:04 <ewallace> ... OWL2 is a very complex language.
17:32:13 <IanH> ack sandro
17:32:43 <ewallace> ... I believe a full OWL 2 test suite (including neg entailment tests) would have
17:32:48 <IanH> q?
17:32:52 <ewallace> ... some 5000 tests!
17:33:19 <ewallace> mschneid: This would mean that for any aspect of the language there would
17:33:24 <ewallace> ... be a test case.
17:34:13 <MarkusK_> q+
17:34:21 <schneid> there are millions(!) of pages in wikipedia
17:34:21 <IanH> ack MarkusK_
17:34:30 <msmith> +1 to this question
17:34:35 <msmith> I am unable to review 700 tests.
17:34:42 <ewallace> ianh: Will this number create problems for our test infrastructure?
17:34:57 <ewallace> markus: No.  But reviewing them could be challenging.
17:35:20 <ewallace> mschneid: these test cases are partitioned into parts
17:36:03 <ewallace> ... one part will be checked against Ivan's implementation.
17:36:10 <IanH> q?
17:36:48 <ewallace> mschneid: There will be quite some full tests that won't be passed by implementations.
17:37:29 <ewallace> ianh: What should we do with these tests that can't be tested?
17:37:35 <IanH> q?
17:38:11 <MarkusK_> We can have non-approved tests in the wiki, no problem.
17:38:18 <msmith> If we have more than 1 RL implementation and some RL tests, then we have an easy mechanism for approval of those tests.
17:38:52 <IanH> q?
17:38:59 <bmotik> +1 to Ian: we should not approve tests that cannot be tested in practice.
17:40:46 <ewallace> ianh: My suggestion is for the 15 July deadline: upload all tests, approve those that we can test.
17:41:19 <ewallace> mschneid: This could be really a mess
17:41:21 <IanH> q?
17:41:36 <ewallace> ... we should pick a subset such as RL.
17:41:51 <ewallace> ianh: let's continue this discussion off line.
17:42:06 <ewallace> ... in the meantime if you could please upload the tests to the wiki.
17:42:32 <ewallace> ianh: One minor consequence of this is that we may need to change the format
17:42:43 <ewallace> ... of the results page with so many tests.
17:42:56 <msmith> yes, this is a legitimate concern
17:42:58 <ewallace> ianh: Some sort of summary page, perhaps.
17:42:59 <IanH> q?
17:43:04 <MarkusK_> right, we will discuss this offline
17:43:25 <IanH> q?
17:43:27 <ewallace> ianh: The overall coverage looks pretty good.
17:43:41 <ewallace> ... Anything else that we need to discuss here?
17:43:54 <msmith> I think that's fair.
17:43:59 <ewallace> ianh: Are we in good shape to declare the test suite complete?
17:44:46 <ewallace> ianh: 15 July is when we can advertise the test suite as ready for testing.
17:44:54 <schneid> zakim, mute me
17:44:54 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted
17:44:55 <ewallace> topic: Additional other business
17:45:27 <uli> heat wave?
17:46:06 <uli> bye
17:46:09 <MarkusK_> bye
17:46:10 <Zakim> -uli
17:46:12 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:46:13 <Zakim> -msmith
17:46:14 <Zakim> -Achille
17:46:14 <Zakim> -MarkusK_
17:46:15 <zimmer> bye
17:46:15 <Zakim> -bcuencagrau
17:46:17 <ewallace> ianh: I will look at the Doodle poll and send around a date for the next meeting
17:46:18 <Zakim> -bmotik
17:46:23 <msmith> bye
17:46:25 <Zakim> -zimmer
17:46:28 <Zakim> -IanH
17:46:30 <msmith> msmith has left #owl
17:46:32 <Zakim> -schneid
17:46:35 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
17:46:37 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
17:46:38 <Zakim> Attendees were Evan_Wallace, IanH, zimmer, bmotik, MarkusK_, Sandro, uli, bcuencagrau, msmith, Achille, schneid
17:46:54 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public