Chatlog 2009-01-14

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00:00:00 <scribenick> PRESENT: bmotik, Ivan, IanH, Zhe, Michael Schneider, Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, uli, Alan Ruttenberg, msmith, MarkusK, Joanne, Christine
00:00:00 <scribenick> REGRETS: Elisa Kendall
00:00:00 <scribenick> CHAIR: IanH
17:55:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
17:55:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/14-owl-irc
17:55:12 <ewallace> ewallace has joined #owl
17:55:28 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2009.01.14/Agenda
17:55:41 <IanH> Zakim, this will be owlwg
17:55:41 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
17:56:09 <IanH> ScribeNick: Achille Fokoue
17:56:25 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public
17:58:05 <schneid> schneid has joined #owl
17:58:30 <bmotik> bmotik has joined #owl
17:59:04 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started
17:59:11 <Zakim> + +0186528aaaa
17:59:12 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:59:12 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
17:59:13 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:59:15 <bmotik> Zakim, this will be OWL
17:59:15 <Zakim> ok, bmotik, I see SW_OWL()1:00PM already started
17:59:37 <MarkusK_> MarkusK_ has joined #owl
17:59:54 <bmotik> Zakim, aaaa is me
17:59:54 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
18:00:08 <Zakim> +IanH
18:00:09 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
18:00:09 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
18:00:28 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
18:00:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH
18:00:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot
18:00:37 <Zhe> Zhe has joined #owl
18:01:15 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aabb
18:01:17 <Achille> Achille has joined #owl
18:01:17 <Bernardo Cuenca Grau> Bernardo Cuenca Grau has joined #owl
18:01:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:01:32 <Zhe> zakim, +1.603.897.aabb is me
18:01:32 <Zakim> +Zhe; got it
18:01:35 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
18:01:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe, [IPcaller]
18:01:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot
18:01:37 <Zhe> zakim, mute me
18:01:37 <Zakim> Zhe should now be muted
18:01:51 <schneid> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
18:01:51 <Zakim> +schneid; got it
18:01:52 <Zakim> +[IBM]
18:02:05 <schneid> zakim, mute me
18:02:05 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted
18:02:07 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aacc
18:02:08 <Achille> Zakim, IBM is me
18:02:08 <Zakim> +Achille; got it
18:02:14 <schneid> zakim, unmute me
18:02:14 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted
18:02:21 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
18:02:30 <IanH> ScribeNick:  Achille
18:02:31 <Achille> ScribeNick: Achille
18:02:32 <baojie> baojie has joined #owl
18:02:44 <Zakim> +??P15
18:02:49 <uli> uli has joined #owl
18:02:50 <Zakim> +??P12
18:02:54 <Bernardo Cuenca Grau> Zakim, ??P12 is me
18:02:54 <Zakim> +Bernardo Cuenca Grau; got it
18:03:04 <Bernardo Cuenca Grau> Zakim, mute me
18:03:04 <Zakim> Bernardo Cuenca Grau should now be muted
18:03:11 <Zakim> +??P16
18:03:19 <uli> zakim, ??P16 is me
18:03:19 <Zakim> +uli; got it
18:03:24 <baojie> Zakim, who is on the phone
18:03:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', baojie
18:03:37 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
18:03:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid, Achille, +1.518.276.aacc, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli
18:03:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot
18:03:42 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:03:42 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:03:45 <schneid> zakim, mute me
18:03:45 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted
18:03:49 <baojie> Zakim, aacc is baojie
18:03:49 <Zakim> +baojie; got it
18:03:51 <ivan> scribenick: Achille
18:03:51 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Rees
18:03:59 <ivan> scribe: Achille
18:04:34 <IanH> zakim, aacc is baojie
18:04:34 <Zakim> sorry, IanH, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
18:04:46 <msmith> msmith has joined #owl
18:04:53 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
18:04:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid (muted), Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli (muted), Jonathan_Rees
18:04:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see msmith, uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot
18:05:05 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl
18:05:23 <Achille> topic: Admin
18:05:23 <Achille> subtopic: Agenda amendments? 
18:05:24 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
18:05:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid (muted), Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli (muted), Jonathan_Rees
18:05:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see alanr, msmith, uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot
18:05:32 <Zakim> +msmith
18:05:36 <Achille> ianh: no agenda amendments
18:05:41 <alanr> zakim, Jonathan_Rees is alanr
18:05:41 <Zakim> +alanr; got it
18:05:49 <Achille> subtopic: Accept Previous Minutes (07 January)
18:05:59 <alanr> zakim, mute me
18:05:59 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted
18:06:00 <Achille> ian: ok to me
18:06:22 <Achille> PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (07 January)
18:06:38 <Achille> RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (07 January) 
18:06:53 <Achille> subtopic: Pending Review Actions
18:07:08 <Achille> subsubtopic: Action 250: Send mime-type registrations in to IETF when we do last-call publications / Sandro Hawke 
18:07:27 <schneid> I remember some mail this week from IETF people?
18:07:34 <Achille> ian: the applications have been made, and it is ongoing process
18:07:59 <Achille> subsubtopic: Action 261: Implement change to syntax for datetime xml schema coordination / Peter Patel-Schneider 
18:08:21 <Achille> ianh: Peter has done his part. We are waiting for xml schema wg response
18:08:44 <Achille> subtopic: Due and overdue Actions 
18:08:44 <Achille> subsubtopic: Action 262: Send mail to Cecil replying that we are waiting for the real comment / Alan Ruttenberg 
18:08:45 <alanr> tyes
18:08:46 <alanr> yes
18:08:52 <alanr> sorry - muted
18:09:09 <Achille> ianh: Action 262 done!
18:09:35 <Achille> subtopic: Soliciting reviews of and/or comments on LC documents 
18:09:48 <Achille> ianh: we did not receive a lot of comments this should be a cause for concerns at this point
18:10:03 <Zhe> q+
18:10:20 <IanH> q?
18:10:20 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:10:21 <Zakim> uli was already muted, uli
18:10:21 <Zhe> zakim, unmute me
18:10:21 <Zakim> Zhe should no longer be muted
18:10:29 <Achille> ivan: i agree with ian concerns
18:10:42 <Achille> zhe: Oracle is sending some comments in a few days. It is hard to get further comments given the size of the spec and the background needed to understand it.
18:11:40 <ivan> q+
18:11:43 <ivan> ack Zhe
18:11:49 <Achille> ianh: important to get comments from companies and organizations outside the working group
18:11:54 <IanH> ack zhe
18:11:57 <IanH> ack ivan
18:12:03 <Zhe> zakim, mute me
18:12:03 <Zakim> Zhe should now be muted
18:12:22 <alanr> I will do so again on the lists that I sent to.
18:12:25 <Achille> ivan: An explicit call for comment from the chair might have some positive effect
18:12:45 <Achille> ianh: yes, we will repeat the call for comment that we did initially
18:12:45 <alanr> will do
18:12:56 <Achille> ivan: great. The call should be  cosign with Alan
18:13:09 <Achille> ianh: personal solicitations are even better 
18:13:52 <alanr> zakim, unmute me
18:13:52 <Zakim> alanr should no longer be muted
18:13:55 <Achille> ivan: people with influencial blogs might also help by posting on their blogs
18:14:02 <Achille> ivan: Example: Alan, can you post it on your blog?
18:14:20 <msmith> yes, it does
18:14:23 <Achille> ianh: yes anybody with a blog
18:14:33 <msmith> yes
18:14:34 <Achille> alanr: Example: Clark & Parsia's blog?
18:14:36 <msmith> will pas it on
18:14:45 <alanr> zakim, mute me
18:14:45 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted
18:15:01 <Achille> ianh: Alan and I will send a final reminder on the various mailing lists
18:15:12 <Achille> ianh: people should write to their blogs
18:15:23 <Achille> ianh: personal solicitations are also  recommended
18:15:35 <Achille> ianh: other ideas?
18:15:50 <Achille> subtopic: F2F5 (23-24 February, 2009) 
18:16:33 <Achille> ianh: only 6 participants confirmed and 4 remote participants confirmed
18:16:51 <Achille> topic: Last Call Comments 
18:17:10 <Achille> ianh: let's discuss Alan Rector's comment
18:17:11 <alanr> but this time to the official list
18:17:17 <alanr> zakim, unmute me
18:17:17 <Zakim> alanr should no longer be muted
18:17:21 <Zakim> + +1.781.271.aadd
18:17:24 <uli> i didn't see 2...
18:17:25 <msmith> I agree, it seemed close to the same
18:17:30 <Achille> ianh: is the latest version of the comment different from the first one?
18:17:39 <Achille> alanr: No, it is roughly the same. It was just moved to the right page
18:17:40 <Zhe> I just updated the F2f5, I will join.
18:17:54 <alanr> great, Zhe!
18:18:19 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
18:18:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid (muted), Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli (muted), alanr, msmith, +1.781.271.aadd
18:18:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see alanr, msmith, uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot
18:19:14 <IanH> Who called in from USA area code 781?
18:19:24 <Achille> alanr: i have proposed a solution to the issue raised by Alan Rector at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/ALR1
18:19:31 <uli> what would the changes be?
18:19:35 <Achille> alanr: The proposed solution will require changes on our side
18:20:11 <ivan> q+
18:20:18 <IanH> q?
18:21:09 <Achille> ivan: warning for ourselves: a major technical change will require a new Last Call (LC)
18:21:23 <uli> q+
18:21:31 <IanH> ack ivan
18:21:42 <Achille> ianh: The change suggested by Alan will require a new LC
18:21:45 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:21:45 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:21:45 <Achille> ivan: yes
18:21:45 <IanH> ack uli
18:22:03 <IanH> q?
18:22:12 <Achille> uli: what will be the required change?
18:22:24 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/ALR1
18:22:30 <Achille> alanr: the proposed serialization is at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/ALR1
18:22:35 <Achille> alanr: the RDF mapping will have to change
18:22:43 <bmotik> q+
18:23:20 <IanH> q?
18:23:27 <Joanne> Joanne has joined #owl
18:23:42 <Achille> uli: The parser will need to make sure that the strings are syntactically correct.
18:24:03 <IanH> q?
18:24:13 <Achille> uli: it sounds complicated
18:24:37 <Achille> alanr: the declarations for classes have no semantic impacts
18:25:03 <IanH> q?
18:25:26 <Achille> uli: the parser will have to make sure the class expressions are correct according to the syntax
18:25:59 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
18:25:59 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
18:26:08 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:26:18 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:26:18 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:28:01 <alanr> q+
18:28:05 <IanH> q?
18:28:13 <Achille> bmotik: not a good idea to put all this kind of managarial information in annotation
18:28:47 <IanH> ack alanr
18:28:58 <Achille> bmotik: not important from an interoperability perspective
18:28:59 <bmotik> q+
18:29:04 <uli> q+
18:29:14 <uli> q-
18:29:28 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:29:30 <Achille> alanr: we cannot say to such a world-class expert in modeling that his view on modeling is wrong
18:29:39 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
18:29:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik, Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid (muted), Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli (muted), alanr, msmith, +1.781.271.aadd
18:29:42 <uli> q+
18:29:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see Joanne, alanr, msmith, uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot
18:29:45 <uli> q-
18:29:47 <Achille> bmotik: annotations are not about modeling
18:29:53 <IanH> q?
18:30:01 <Achille> bmotik: for modeling purposes,  use owl-dl 
18:30:21 <Achille> bmotik: the Alan Rector's list of requirements has nothing to do with modeling
18:30:28 <IanH> q?
18:30:42 <uli> ...but we can say even to world-leading expert that, given that the complications incurred by his workaround and (!) the fact that it will still be a work-around (and not a proper fix), this isn't worth it
18:30:52 <Achille> ianh: should we continue this discussion on email?
18:31:19 <alanr> uli: Agree. Need a coherent explanation of what the complications are to support such.
18:31:19 <bmotik> q+
18:31:23 <IanH> q?
18:31:42 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:31:46 <Achille> ianh: people should look at Alan's proposal and we need to clarify the technical issues/difficulties
18:31:59 <msmith> q+
18:32:05 <Achille> bmotik: those issues were already discussed at the last F2F
18:32:12 <alanr> q+
18:32:19 <msmith> q-
18:32:23 <IanH> q?
18:32:40 <Achille> ianh: i agree, but could someone send an email about the issues
18:32:48 <IanH> q?
18:32:51 <IanH> ack alanr
18:32:59 <Achille> ianh: for example,a summary of the discussions at the F2F or a pointer to the minutes of the last F2F
18:33:15 <IanH> q?
18:33:44 <Achille> alanr: i would like a discussion about the alternative solutions
18:33:55 <alanr> zakim, mute me
18:33:55 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted
18:34:19 <Achille> ianh: how do we deal with internal LC comments?
18:34:42 <ivan> q+
18:34:50 <IanH> ack ivan
18:34:51 <Achille> ianh should they be treated the exact same way as external comments?
18:35:42 <Achille> ivan: the wiki page should contain all the comments (internal or  external) because it will be used to track the changes to the spec
18:36:03 <IanH> q?
18:36:10 <alanr> ok by me
18:36:19 <schneid> +1
18:37:06 <IanH> q?
18:37:30 <IanH> q?
18:38:26 <IanH> q?
18:39:00 <Achille> ianh: I will send an email clarifying how to make and deal with WG internal comments on LC documents 
18:39:44 <IanH> q?
18:39:46 <msmith> q+
18:39:46 <ivan> action to IanH: send a mail to the group clarifying the dealing with WG internal comments on LC documents
18:39:46 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
18:39:56 <IanH> ack msmith
18:39:58 <Achille> action: ianh to send an email to clarify how to make and deal with WG comments on LC documents
18:39:58 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ianh
18:40:19 <IanH> q?
18:40:47 <IanH> q?
18:41:00 <Achille> subtopic: Comment from Tim Redmond 
18:41:02 <alanr> zakim, unmute me
18:41:02 <Zakim> alanr should no longer be muted
18:41:07 <IanH> q?
18:41:30 <Achille> ianh: we can simply send a note about the discussion we already had on the import issues
18:42:10 <IanH> q?
18:42:16 <Achille> alanr: I will call him to help clarify his understanding
18:42:41 <Achille> ianh: i agree with Alan that he may not have fully understood the spec
18:42:49 <IanH> q?
18:42:53 <alanr> we agreed to disagree :)
18:42:53 <ivan> yes
18:43:49 <alanr> action: alanr to talk to tim redmond about his lc comment
18:43:49 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr
18:43:59 <Achille> subtopic: Comment from Andy Seaborne 
18:44:11 <baojie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg//2009Jan/0025.html
18:44:13 <IanH> q?
18:44:19 <alanr> action: alanruttenberg to talk to tim redmond about his lc comment
18:44:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-264 - Talk to tim redmond about his lc comment [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2009-01-21].
18:44:31 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/b6b357670901140921j4be87090h76df1d20a00878d6@mail.gmail.com Baojie's answer
18:45:03 <IanH> q?
18:45:43 <Achille> baojie: my response is at http://www.w3.org/mid/b6b357670901140921j4be87090h76df1d20a00878d6@mail.gmail.com 
18:45:46 <IanH> q?
18:45:51 <ivan> q+
18:46:00 <IanH> ack ivan
18:46:48 <IanH> q?
18:46:57 <Achille> ivan: there is another comment from Andy about RDF wg taking over some datatypes
18:47:09 <IanH> q?
18:47:13 <schneid> I agree that only an RDF working group may make such a statement
18:47:27 <Achille> ivan: i agree with Andy that we should not have such a statement in our spec about RDF working group
18:47:49 <baojie> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec#Definition_of_the_rdf:text_Datatype
18:47:49 <ivan> The text in the rdf:text says: "In addition to the RIF and OWL specifications, this datatype is expected to supersede RDF's plain literals with language tags"
18:48:15 <Achille> ivan: this should not be part of our document
18:48:38 <IanH> q?
18:48:42 <Achille> ianh: should we discuss this issue further?
18:48:49 <Zakim> -MarkusK_
18:49:02 <Achille> ivan: baojie, did you also have a discussion with the RIF group?
18:49:07 <baojie> not yet
18:49:20 <IanH> q?
18:49:33 <Achille> ianh: let's add that to our todo list on the topic of coordination with RIF group
18:49:46 <Achille> topic: Test Cases 
18:49:56 <Achille> ianh: Problems with approved test cases? 
18:49:59 <Achille> ianh: no
18:50:30 <Achille> ianh: tests are coming in fast. It is not clear how to run the approval process
18:50:34 <alanr> q+
18:50:38 <alanr> zakim, unmute me
18:50:38 <Zakim> alanr was not muted, alanr
18:50:40 <IanH> q?
18:50:42 <Achille> ianh:  have anyone looked at the tests?
18:50:43 <IanH> ack alanr
18:50:58 <Achille> alanr: we should split the labor to make sure that every test is looked at by at least one person
18:52:39 <msmith> q+
18:52:41 <IanH> q?
18:52:46 <Achille> ianh: If all reasoners pass successfully a test, it should not require additional human validation
18:52:46 <IanH> ack msmith
18:53:20 <Achille> mike: if there is no table entry, it means that the test cannot be tested by a OWL-DL reasoner (OWL Full test)
18:53:45 <IanH> q?
18:54:03 <Achille> mike: there are also tests meant to illustrate the differences between DL and Full
18:54:16 <IanH> q?
18:54:19 <uli> q+
18:54:21 <schneid> q+
18:54:22 <uli> q-
18:54:28 <schneid> zakim, unmute me
18:54:28 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted
18:54:29 <IanH> ack schneid
18:54:36 <MarkusK_> MarkusK_ has joined #owl
18:55:03 <IanH> q?
18:55:39 <msmith> I don't know of tests that touch these cases
18:55:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:55:44 <Achille> schneid:  there are some corner cases that will cease to be valid OWL DL
18:58:36 <schneid> schneid: there might be old test cases about the reserved vocabulary: OWL 2 DL is now more restrictive, cancelling out almost /all/ names from the rdf, rdfs, owl and xsd namespaces, where in OWL 1 many names were actually not disallowed. But these are corner cases.
18:55:58 <IanH> q?
18:56:05 <schneid> zakim, mute me
18:56:05 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted
18:56:11 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
18:56:11 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
18:56:12 <IanH> q?
18:56:28 <alanr> that's one way
18:57:03 <alanr> I'll take 5
18:57:06 <Achille> ianh: how to process tests validation by reasoners?
18:57:09 <IanH> q?
18:57:14 <ivan> ok
18:57:15 <Zhe> I will take 5
18:57:26 <msmith> I've already eye-balled them all, so can do it again, but that won't help.
18:57:45 <Achille> no objection from me
18:58:02 <uli> ...why doesn't eye-balling help 
18:58:04 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
18:58:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid (muted), Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli (muted), alanr, msmith, +1.781.271.aadd, MarkusK_
18:58:05 <uli> ?
18:58:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkusK_, Joanne, alanr, msmith, uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot
18:58:10 <Achille> ianh: does anybody object to receiving 5 testcases to evaluate?
18:58:11 <MarkusK_> I missed the discussion -- I also will check some further tests
18:58:11 <ivan> zakim, aadd is Joanne
18:58:11 <Zakim> +Joanne; got it
18:58:20 <IanH> q?
18:58:23 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:58:23 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:58:23 <Zhe> please let me know which 5 though :)
18:58:42 <Christine> Christine has joined #owl
18:58:55 <msmith> yes.
18:59:02 <msmith> you can check my sanity :)
18:59:17 <Achille> ianh: i am not convince that it will help
18:59:39 <IanH> q?
18:59:43 <msmith> q+
18:59:56 <Achille> alanr: it will help make sure that they are not OWL DL
19:00:07 <IanH> q?
19:00:16 <IanH> ack msmith
19:00:23 <Achille> ianh: if all three reasoners say there are not OWL DL that should be good enough, right?
19:00:48 <Zakim> +??P24
19:01:12 <Christine> Zakim, ??P24 is Christine
19:01:12 <Zakim> +Christine; got it
19:01:28 <IanH> q?
19:01:35 <Achille> mike: the entries in the table are the ones that are now OWL DL.
19:02:02 <IanH> q?
19:02:06 <Achille> mike: the only one handle to the reasoner were the OWL DL examples
19:03:08 <msmith> will do shortly
19:03:52 <uli> http://owl.cs.manchester.ac.uk/converter/
19:03:54 <ivan> i do not have a practice in m'ter syntax, sorry
19:04:16 <msmith> q+
19:04:22 <IanH> q?
19:04:27 <IanH> ack msmith
19:04:43 <msmith> +5, this would be nice
19:04:58 <msmith> @alan regarding declarations http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax#Entity_Declarations_and_Typing
19:05:08 <uli> zakim, mute me
19:05:08 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
19:05:32 <Achille> ianh: we can use the converter as a species checker provided that the repair functionality is disable
19:05:51 <Achille> topic: Plans for non-LC documents 
19:05:55 <IanH> q?
19:06:53 <Achille> ianh: last week strawpoll on ManchesterSyntax to become  Rec Track was not conclusive
19:07:16 <Achille> ianh: has anyone changed his/her mind since then?
19:07:26 <ivan> q+
19:07:30 <Zhe> q+
19:07:55 <Achille> ianh: would anybody raise a formal objection if ManchesterSyntax were to become a Rec Track?
19:08:09 <Christine> +q
19:08:10 <Zhe> zakim, unmute me
19:08:10 <Zakim> Zhe should no longer be muted
19:08:11 <IanH> ack ivan
19:08:48 <Achille> ivan: I do not think it is part of our scope 
19:08:52 <IanH> q?
19:09:05 <Achille> ivan: it was not part of the charter, and we are taking too much here
19:09:11 <IanH> ack zhe
19:09:36 <uli> no, I don't think so
19:09:39 <Achille> Zhe: what are the consequences if it becomes  rec track? will vendors be required to support it?
19:10:03 <Achille> ianh: no.
19:10:29 <Achille> ianh: it will be optional
19:10:52 <uli> q+
19:10:57 <IanH> q?
19:11:32 <Achille> ivan: but it will mean that  it is a syntax taken seriously by the group
19:12:15 <IanH> q?
19:12:19 <IanH> ack christine
19:13:16 <Achille> christine:  it will become first class syntax if it becomes rec track
19:13:20 <IanH> q?
19:14:14 <uli> zakim, unmute me
19:14:14 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
19:14:14 <IanH> ack uli
19:14:27 <Achille> christine: what are the arguments in favor of it being rec track? 
19:15:08 <Achille> uli: better visibility, interoperability between tools, and shared human readable syntax
19:16:14 <ivan> q+
19:16:29 <ivan> q-
19:16:46 <uli> zakim, mute me
19:16:46 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
19:17:07 <IanH> q?
19:17:08 <Achille> ianh:  how about ManchesterSyntax  being a Note?
19:17:55 <Achille> ianh: seems nobody will vote against it 
19:18:09 <uli> not extremely unhappy, but I would think that this was "treating the MS designers no too nicely" (note, I am not one of them) 
19:18:11 <Achille> PROPOSED : ManchesterSyntax  will be a Note
19:18:26 <schneid> what about the editor?
19:18:29 <uli> ...but I will shut up now
19:18:50 <schneid> q+
19:18:54 <schneid> zakim, unmute me
19:18:54 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted
19:18:58 <IanH> ack schneid
19:19:28 <Achille> schneid: peter would be in favor of a recommendation
19:19:36 <Christine> +q
19:20:00 <schneid> zakim, mute me
19:20:00 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted
19:20:33 <Achille> ianh: we can vote now and revisit the vote in light of completely new arguments
19:20:52 <IanH> q?
19:21:19 <Achille> ivan: my impression was that peter was just lukewarmly in favor of it being Rec track
19:21:47 <Achille> christine: it would not be wlecome to delay the vote again and again. It has been on the Agenda several times before (on TC (2008.12.17), on TC (2009.01.07) and has already been postponed because one (or another) author was not there (indeed, Peter had the opportunity to support MS as a Rec if he wanted so since he was there on the previous TC 2008.12.17 and 2009.01.07, but he did not argue for it, e.g. before the straw-poll; on 2009.01.07 Bijan was not there again but Uli was there as a  Manchester representative. 
19:21:59 <Achille> PROPOSED : ManchesterSyntax  will be a Note
19:21:59 <IanH> ROPOSED : ManchesterSyntax  will be a Note
19:22:11 <ivan> +1
19:22:12 <ewallace> +1
19:22:12 <baojie> +1
19:22:14 <uli> -0
19:22:14 <Achille> +0.5
19:22:14 <MarkusK_> +0
19:22:15 <Zhe> +1 (ORACLE)
19:22:16 <msmith> 0
19:22:16 <Bernardo Cuenca Grau> 0
19:22:18 <schneid> +1
19:22:18 <bmotik> -0
19:22:18 <Christine> +1
19:22:29 <IanH> 0
19:22:50 <Achille> RESOLVED: ManchesterSyntax  will be  a Note
19:23:13 <Zakim> -uli
19:23:21 <Achille> topic: Coordination with RIF 
19:23:51 <Achille> ianh: jie  agrees to take the job wrt to rdf:text
19:24:03 <Achille> ianh: what do we need for this coordination?
19:24:12 <IanH> q?
19:24:28 <IanH> ack christine
19:24:41 <Achille> baojie: what are the other issues on the list wrt to the coordination?
19:25:01 <Christine> -q
19:25:02 <Achille> ianh: some issues regarding datatypes
19:25:08 <IanH> q?
19:25:52 <Achille> ivan: one of the issues is the difference between how owl and xml schema handle datatype value spaces
19:26:04 <baojie> is there a pointer to previous discussions? thanks
19:27:03 <Achille> ivan: we do not want different view of datatypes by owl wg and rif wg
19:27:14 <Achille> ianh: no need to discuss it in detail now
19:29:29 <Achille> topic: Additional other business 
19:30:07 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
19:30:12 <msmith> thanks everyone, bye
19:30:13 <Zakim> -bmotik
19:30:15 <Zakim> -msmith
19:30:19 <Zhe> bye
19:30:19 <Zakim> -Achille
19:30:25 <Zakim> -MarkusK_
19:30:28 <Zakim> -Zhe
19:30:35 <Zakim> -Christine
19:30:41 <Zakim> -Joanne
19:30:48 <Zakim> -baojie
19:30:55 <baojie> baojie has left #owl
19:31:03 <Zakim> -schneid
19:32:01 <Zakim> -Bernardo Cuenca Grau
19:32:35 <alanr> have to go to another call
19:32:44 <Zakim> -alanr
19:34:28 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl