UFDTF/Minutes/26Nov07IRC

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*** Opened channel log for #owl at 26/11/2007 16:55:40
[16:55] *** jjc (jjc@192.6.10.2) has joined #owl
[16:55] *** bijan (bjp@130.88.198.12) has joined #owl
 [16:55] <bijan> zakim, who's here?
 [16:55] *** Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30) has joined #owl
 [16:55] <bijan> zakim, who's here?
 [16:56] <Zakim> sorry, bijan, I don't know what conference this is
[16:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see bijan, jjc, pfps, Carsten, IanH, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng
[16:56] [jjc] Zakim, this is SW_OWL
[16:56] <Zakim> ok, jjc; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM
[16:56] <bijan> zakim, who's here?
[16:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, ??P5
[16:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see bijan, jjc, pfps, Carsten, IanH, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng
[16:56]  * Zakim hears ??P5's hand up
[16:56]  * Zakim sees ??P5 on the speaker queue
[16:56] [jjc] Zakim, ??P5 is me
[16:56] <Zakim> +jjc; got it
[16:56] <bijan> What command did you use?
[16:56] <bijan> zakim, ??p2 is me
[16:56] <Zakim> +bijan; got it
[16:56] [jjc] 41#
[16:56]  * Zakim hears bijan's hand up
[16:57]  * Zakim sees ??P5, bijan on the speaker queue
[16:57] [jjc] ack
[16:57] [jjc] ack
[16:57] <bijan> zakim, mute me
[16:57] <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
[16:57] [jjc] q?
[16:57]  * Zakim sees ??P5, bijan on the speaker queue
[16:57] [jjc] q-
[16:57]  * Zakim sees ??P5, bijan on the speaker queue
[16:57] [jjc] q- ??P5
[16:57]  * Zakim sees bijan on the speaker queue
[16:57] [jjc] q- bijan
[16:57]  * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
[16:57]  * bijan tries zakim obliterate queue
[16:57] <bijan> I am muted :)
[16:58] <bijan> They cut my vocal cords
[16:58] <bijan> And burned the nerves that control my lips
[16:58] *** jjc is now known as Jeremy
[16:58] <bijan> Then sewed my lips together
[16:58] [Jeremy] Zakim, jjc is Jeremy
[16:58] <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
[16:59] <Zakim> +Vipul_Kashyap
[17:00]  * bijan 's fist remains mighty
[17:00] <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
[17:00] <Zakim> +??P8
[17:00] <pfps> zakim, ??p8 is me
[17:00] <Zakim> +pfps; got it
[17:00] <pfps> zakim, mute me
[17:00] <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
[17:00]  * pfps hi
[17:00] *** Vipul (aadff7f8@207.250.49.24) has joined #owl
[17:01] <Zakim> + +049351aaaa
[17:01] <Carsten> zakim, aaaa is carsten
[17:01] <Zakim> +carsten; got it
[17:01] *** alanr (chatzilla@128.30.5.82) has joined #owl
[17:01] <Carsten> zakim, mute me
[17:01] <Zakim> carsten should now be muted
[17:01] <Zakim> +[MIT-G346]
[17:02] <alanr> zakim, [MIT-G346] is me
[17:02] <Zakim> +alanr; got it
[17:02] *** hendler (chatzilla@128.113.47.141) has joined #owl
[17:02] <hendler> this looks like the right place - what is the zakim code for UFDTF?
[17:02] [Jeremy] http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/UFDTF/Agenda
[17:02] [Jeremy] OWLWG
[17:02] [Jeremy] ie 69594
[17:02] [Jeremy] #
[17:03] <ewallace> NIST folk are experiencing some tech difficulties calling in
[17:03]  * pfps not using standards?  :-)
[17:04] [Jeremy] Zakim, who's on the call?
[17:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Jeremy, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, pfps (muted), carsten (muted), alanr
[17:05] <Carsten> jeremy: any way to improve the sound quality of your phone? Very hard to understand!
[17:05] <pfps> +1 previous minutes OK - meeting page should be edited to make the UFDTF entries look like the main entries
[17:05] *** dlm (dlm@72.224.56.157) has joined #owl
[17:05] <Carsten> yes!!
[17:05]  * pfps better souns
[17:05] <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aabb
[17:06] <hendler> zakim, aabb is jhendler
[17:06] <Zakim> +jhendler; got it
[17:06] <Carsten> +1 approve
[17:06] [Jeremy] Minutes approved
[17:06] [Jeremy] http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/UFDTF/Minutes/15Nov07
[17:06] <Zakim> + +1.518.608.aacc
[17:06] <dlm> the last number is Deborah McGuinness
[17:07] <Carsten> maybe we decide that at the end?
[17:07] <Zakim> +Conrad
[17:07] <alanr> I will not be available
[17:07] [Jeremy] Zakim, aacc is Deborah
[17:07] <Zakim> +Deborah; got it
[17:07] <pfps> a meeting next week would probably be useful
[17:08] [Jeremy] Evan regrets for next week, if we have a meeting
[17:08] <alanr> Alan regrets for next week, if we have a meeting
[17:08] [Jeremy] jjc: meetign next week may be useful, let's have one unless we choose not to
[17:09]  * hendler sent some mail on audiences to WG - was not in a form I felt comfortable wiki-ing, just went out today...
[17:10] <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Who_Reads_Our_Documents
[17:10] <alanr> better to have ugly wiki, than ephemeral email
[17:10] <hendler> q+ to answer JEremy's question
[17:10]  * Zakim sees hendler on the speaker queue
[17:11]  * bijan wonders if jeremy is ok in splitting RDF and XML hackers since I think they are very different
[17:11] <bijan> Email: http://www.w3.org/mid/A80EEDE0-78C6-4B64-AE53-C5FECF636142@cs.rpi.edu
[17:11] [Jeremy] jeremy: martin is not here, anyone want to take seat
[17:11] <bijan> Where is this evidence?
[17:11] [Jeremy] jim: we have good evidence that previous docs were used
[17:11] [Jeremy] so we should be maintaining that
[17:11] [Jeremy] deborah: +1 to jim
[17:12] <alanr> current documents are the only ones that are there. So of course they are used. Can we do better? Probably yes.
[17:12] *** IanH (horrocks@163.1.124.169) has quit IRC [Quit: IanH]
[17:12] [Jeremy] vipul: we should be reasching agreemtn on users
[17:12] <ewallace> It's helpful to understand what the audience is for those docs.
[17:12] [Jeremy] jim: we've already done that
[17:12] [Jeremy] (for OWL 1.0)
[17:12] [Jeremy] jim: why does knowing more about the reader help
[17:12] [Jeremy] vipul: different readers need different answers
[17:13] [Jeremy] vipul: let's go to xquery web page
[17:13] <alanr> Jim, knowing something about the reader is important, at least for those who weren't there the first time
[17:13] [Jeremy] vipul: they have identified four readers
[17:13] [Jeremy] (copied into "Who reads our documents")
[17:13] [Jeremy] vipul: I see clearly different concern for different users
[17:14] [Jeremy] vipul: gives examples from XQuery
[17:15] <alanr> As a benchmark, I estimate it was a year before I understood OWL to my satisfaction.
[17:15] <alanr> That's too long.
[17:15] <alanr> http://www.w3.org/XML/Query/
[17:16] *** IanH (horrocks@163.1.124.169) has joined #owl
[17:16] <bijan> Vipul doesn't speak for me on the successfulness evaluation
[17:16] <Vipul> http://www.w3.org/XML/Query/
[17:16] [Jeremy] jim: I hear vipul arguing for one more document
[17:16] <dlm> +queue
[17:16]  * Zakim sees hendler, dlm on the speaker queue
[17:17] <hendler> q-
[17:17] [Jeremy] alan: I think we need to think more clearly
[17:17]  * Zakim sees dlm on the speaker queue
[17:17] [Jeremy] alan: several documents, some confusion about which one to read
[17:17] <bijan> q+
[17:17]  * Zakim sees dlm, bijan on the speaker queue
[17:18] [Jeremy] alan: many people have tried to read the docs, and they don't get it - e,g, open world assumpltion lack of unique name assumption
[17:18] [Jeremy] alan: typical usecases e.g. RDMS to OWL that document doesn't give you toehold
[17:18] [Jeremy] alan: too little on inferrences
[17:18] [Jeremy] alan: people say you should write a cook book
[17:19] [Jeremy] (jim: Dean and I have been writing one)
[17:19] [Jeremy] alan: documentation was good for purpose, but not end of story
[17:19] [Jeremy] q+ vipul
[17:19]  * Zakim sees dlm, bijan, vipul on the speaker queue
[17:20]  * hendler wants to be clear - I was not arging against other new things, but suggesting maintenance of the existing documents
[17:20] [Jeremy] dlm: I want some level of maintenance of docs that are alreasdy used
[17:20] [Jeremy] hendler agreed
[17:20] [Jeremy] dlm:  e.g. overview briefness on each constructor was good and should be maintenance
[17:21] <bijan> zakim, unmute me
[17:21] <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
[17:21] [Jeremy] alan: I think the good points should be maintained, not clear whether that means the current docs are the right form
[17:21] [Jeremy] bijan: I am not so sure that these docs are not heavily used, my experience appears to be different from deb and jim
[17:22] [Jeremy] bijan: some things seem to be misleading because of simplifications in OWL Reference
[17:22]  * hendler Google rank for overview, reference, guide = 8; SAS and use cases = 7 -- all pretty good
[17:22] [Jeremy] bijan: everything we produce needs to bear in mind the difficulties of incorrect doc
[17:23] [Jeremy] bijan: we have lots of things like Wikipedia, Web etc. I put emphasis on non-W3C docs
[17:23] <bijan> zakim, mute me
[17:23] <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
[17:23] [Jeremy] vipul: we shouldn't worry about W3C doc or not for now
[17:23] <Zakim> -alanr
[17:24] <bijan> Uhm...we're a w3c working group! Isn't that what we're supposed to be focusing on?
[17:24]  * hendler agrees w/Bijan that implementor docs need to be clear, but I didn't think that was the OWL 1.1 issue - seems we have implementors (and maybe only implementors) covered
[17:24] <Zakim> +[MIT-G346]
[17:24] <alanr> zakim, [MIT-G346] is me
[17:24] <Zakim> +alanr; got it
[17:24] [Jeremy] scribe missed vipul's points
[17:24] <bijan> Jim, it's not jsut for implementers...its' when a user comes to me and says "pellet is wrong...look at the reference"
[17:24] [Jeremy] domain issues - we need to provide specific domains for different people
[17:24] <hendler> so I agree the documents need to be as correct as we can make them.  That doesn't argue to me to get rid of the reference
[17:25] <hendler> see my point re "irreflexive"
[17:25] <bijan> I'm just saying there is a cost
[17:25] [Jeremy] comment from vipul
[17:25] <bijan> So I prefer streamlined to lots of document
[17:25] <Zakim> -carsten
[17:25] <hendler> agree there is a cost, I think losing the documents has higher cost
[17:25] <bijan> I.e., guide and reference overlap substantially
[17:26] [Jeremy] jim: I think there are several different users, but current docs are already useful; let's do clarificarion clean-up etc and update for OWL 1.1 seems good
[17:27] <bijan> Jim, do they have to be rec track for you?>
[17:27] [Jeremy] jim: but writing new docs is more work 
[17:27] <bijan> Or could they be submissions?
[17:27] [Jeremy] jjc: end of item for now - more at f2f
[17:27] <bijan> er WG Notes
[17:27] <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Who_Reads_Our_Documents
[17:27] <bijan> q+
[17:27]  * Zakim sees dlm, bijan, vipul on the speaker queue
[17:28] [Jeremy] continue 22
[17:28] <alanr> ack dlm
[17:28]  * Zakim sees bijan, vipul on the speaker queue
[17:28]  * bijan on
[17:28] <alanr> ack vipul
[17:28]  * Zakim sees bijan on the speaker queue
[17:28] <bijan> zakim, unmute me
[17:28] <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
[17:29] [Jeremy] other actions are done
[17:29] <bijan> zakim, mute me
[17:29] <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
[17:29] [Jeremy] bijan will split RDF and XML hackers apart
[17:29] [Jeremy] http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Who_Reads_Our_Documents
[17:30] <alanr> Descriptions of examples of readers who would be reading our user facing documents.
[17:31]  * bijan notes that he's been working on a UFD: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Numerics
[17:31]  * hendler notes -1 on "this theory"
[17:32]  * alanr surprised that "this theory" would be controversial...
[17:32] <pfps> bijan's document seems to me to be much better "reference" material than the current reference
[17:32]  * alanr isn't it first: requiremens, second:design?
[17:33]  * bijan surprised that alanr would find that *anything* being controversial is surprising :)
[17:33] [Jeremy] A brief discussion of "this theory" being that we start with descriptions of readers, and write docs for them to read.
[17:33] <alanr> s/requiremens/requirements/
[17:33] <pfps> ... although not suitable to me as part of an overview
[17:33] [Jeremy] There is dispute as to whether that is the right way to go.
[17:33]  * alanr )
[17:34] [Jeremy] Bijan's doc was  he's been working on a UFD: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Numerics
[17:34] <Vipul> Can we state the dispute explicitly?
[17:34]  * bijan says something vitally important that reconciles everyone on
[17:34]  * bijan everything
[17:34]  * bijan notes the crowd goes WILD
[17:35]  * hendler disagrees with Bijan
[17:35]  * pfps bijan is not keeping up with his usual level of utility
[17:35] [Jeremy] jim: I do a lot of writing,
[17:35]  * bijan that "Bijan" is different than "bijan" :)
[17:35] [Jeremy] jim: WG docs have huge audience, spending too much time to profile the reader is not very profitable
[17:36] <bijan> Jim's point seems to be an argument for minimality
[17:36] [Jeremy] jjc paraphrases: any particular profile will be to specific and miss majpoirty of our audience
[17:36] <ewallace> agree that we shouldn't spend too much time on IDing user types
[17:36] <hendler> no bijan, it's a argument to try to find some general levels of knowledge and write to those
[17:37] [Jeremy] jjc: two very specific profiles 
[17:37] [Jeremy] we could have OWL for X where X varies
[17:37] <alanr> q+
[17:37]  * Zakim sees bijan, alanr on the speaker queue
[17:37] [Jeremy] vipul: pull on work from MIchael and Christine
[17:37] <bijan> q-
[17:37]  * Zakim sees alanr on the speaker queue
[17:38] [Jeremy] alan: I write specifics because stuff that is too general is scary
[17:38] [Jeremy] alan: my example could be generalized across science
[17:38] [Jeremy] alan: but we should have a busienss example
[17:39] <dlm> +q
[17:39]  * Zakim sees alanr, dlm on the speaker queue
[17:39] [Jeremy] alan: we need to be able to evaluate how well we are doing
[17:40] [Jeremy] alan: let's get new blood on, which means the old people need to share better the valeus of the docs
[17:40] <bijan> I'd love a justification of having the reference *and* the guide, for example.
[17:40] <bijan> I could
[17:40] <bijan> Or solicit one
[17:40] [Jeremy] action: jeremy to write up business user 
[17:40]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:40] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-30 - Write up business user  [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2007-12-03].
[17:41] <bijan> I am a student
[17:41] [Jeremy] action: bijan to write up or solicit business user 
[17:41]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:41] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-31 - Write up or solicit business user  [on Bijan Parsia - due 2007-12-03].
[17:41] <bijan> That's fine
[17:41] [Jeremy] q- dlm
[17:41]  * Zakim sees alanr on the speaker queue
[17:41]  * hendler wonders if Bijan is a "typical" student :-)
[17:41] [Jeremy] q- alanr
[17:41]  * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
[17:41] *** cgi-irc (810620b3@128.30.52.23) has joined #owl
[17:42] [Jeremy] dlm: should we modify old profiles or add new ones
[17:42]  * bijan *defines* typicality
[17:42] [Jeremy] alan: ask on a case by case basis
[17:43] <alanr> zakim, who is on the call
[17:43] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', alanr
[17:43] <alanr> zakim, who is here?
[17:43] <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Jeremy, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, pfps (muted), jhendler, Deborah, Conrad, alanr
[17:43] <Zakim> On IRC I see cgi-irc, IanH, dlm, hendler, alanr, Vipul, Zakim, bijan, Jeremy, pfps, Carsten, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng
[17:43] [Jeremy] vipul: should we generalise the bioinformatics example?
[17:43] [Jeremy] jjc: I think it would be helpful to note on that example
[17:44] [Jeremy] alan: it is of course best when we have an identifiable person
[17:45] <pfps> zakim, unmute me
[17:45] <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
[17:45]  * bijan has a telecon customer
[17:45] [Jeremy] jjc: evan please add appropriate action 
[17:45] <pfps> zakim, mute me
[17:45] <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
[17:46] <alanr> Conrad: Metamodelers
[17:46] [Jeremy] conrad: one group of users do metamodelling
[17:46] <bijan> BT uses owl
[17:46] [Jeremy] extend OWL for process modelling, or business modelling or ....
[17:46] [Jeremy] it is good to have something on metamodelling
[17:47] [Jeremy] dlm will ping elisa to get input
[17:47] <ewallace> action: evan to write up some mfg user classes
[17:47]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:47] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-32 - Write up some mfg user classes [on Evan Wallace - due 2007-12-03].
[17:47] [Jeremy] action deborah to ask elisa for metamodeller
[17:47] [Jeremy] action: deborah to ask elisa for metamodeller reader description
[17:47]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:47] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-33 - Ask elisa for metamodeller reader description [on Deborah McGuinness - due 2007-12-03].
[17:47] <pfps> zakim, unmute me
[17:47] <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
[17:48] *** IanH (horrocks@163.1.124.169) has quit IRC [Quit: IanH]
[17:48]  * bijan imagines interview himself, "Would you say that your experience is paradigmatic or *absolutely* paradigmatic?"
[17:48] [Jeremy] action: pfps to write up telecom user ... (maybe)
[17:48]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:48] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps
[17:48] <pfps> zakim, mute me
[17:48] <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
[17:48] [Jeremy] action: peter to write up telecom user ... (maybe)
[17:48]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:48] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-34 - Write up telecom user ... (maybe) [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2007-12-03].
[17:49]  * hendler didn't know muzzling peter was an option :-)
[17:49]  * pfps it isn't but ignoring me has the same effect :-(
[17:49]  * alanr funniest wg meeting yet. Thanks, I needed that!
[17:49] [Jeremy] vipul: actions 24 and 25, were done; but Christine replied about nature of collaboration
[17:50] [Jeremy] how are we going to coordiante? etc.? etc.?
[17:50]  * alanr last time I tried to relax I say this movie: http://www.google.com/movies/reviews?cid=b8d1088d618f18ce&oi=moviesr&hl=en
[17:50]  * alanr didn't work :(
[17:50] *** pfps (pfps@193.206.186.101) has quit IRC [Client exited]
[17:50] <alanr> s/say/saw/
[17:50] <bijan> To my knowledge nothing has happened in the TF yet
[17:50] [Jeremy] not heard whether they are happy to present.
[17:50] *** pfps (pfps@193.206.186.101) has joined #owl
[17:50] <hendler> q+ to ask about relationship to "Owled"?
[17:50]  * Zakim sees hendler on the speaker queue
[17:51] <bijan> The task force web page was last updated Oct 11: http://code.google.com/p/owl1-1/wiki/UserRequirements
[17:52] [Jeremy] UFDTF Clarify attribution issues for non-WG authors  - jjc
[17:52] [Jeremy] action 23 
[17:52] <bijan> jim, Michel Dumontier and Christine Golbriech
[17:52] <pfps> zakim, mute me
[17:52] <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
[17:52] [Jeremy] jjc: has asked sandro, but no clarification yet
[17:52] <hendler> ok, who are Michel Dumontier and Christine Golbriech?
[17:53] <bijan> HCLS users
[17:53] <bijan> Christine was a PC chair of OWLED2007 and is point person for the OWLED requriements task force
[17:54] <bijan> Michel made the table: http://clarkparsia.com/weblog/2007/06/18/two-interesting-quotes/
[17:54] <hendler> thanks
[17:54] <bijan> I worry about the ever expanding scope
[17:54] <bijan> q+
[17:54]  * Zakim sees hendler, bijan on the speaker queue
[17:55] <hendler> q-
[17:55]  * Zakim sees bijan on the speaker queue
[17:55] <hendler> +1 to Bijan re: ever expanding scope (strangelt enough)
[17:55] [Jeremy] jjc: we could just provide pointers to their docs, but it would be better to acknowledge them fully
[17:55] <bijan> :)
[17:55] [Jeremy] particulary fi we have large quotes
[17:56] *** hendler (chatzilla@128.113.47.141) has quit IRC [Client exited]
[17:56] <bijan> There are an aribtrary number of people who *could* usefully contribute
[17:56] <bijan> There are a number of tutorials, for example
[17:56] *** hendler (chatzilla@128.113.47.141) has joined #owl
[17:56] <pfps> carlton university, ottawa, ontario, canada
[17:56] <bijan> Any number of blog posts, developer articles, etc.
[17:57] [Jeremy] Micahel is likely to be at OWLED, and so could be invited to present to F2F2
[17:57] [Jeremy] or we could discuss stuff with him
[17:58] <bijan> That confusion has continued
[17:58] <bijan> I've had to correct several people
[17:58] [Jeremy] jim: some people felt that OWLED had privileged position, and this is inappropriate
[17:59] <bijan> Shouldn't those go to SWEO?
[17:59] <bijan> SWEO already has some OWL use cases
[18:00]  * bijan calls the RPI president and leans!
[18:01] <bijan> I thought jim was "at risk" not definitely not attending
[18:02] <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
[18:02] <Zakim> -alanr
[18:02] <Zakim> -Vipul_Kashyap
[18:02] <Zakim> -Conrad
[18:02] <Zakim> -Deborah
[18:02] <Zakim> -bijan
[18:02] <Zakim> -Jeremy
[18:02] <Zakim> -jhendler
[18:03] <Zakim> -pfps
[18:03]  * alanr still at risk. Didn't say he couldn't attend - just that there were issues
[18:03] <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
[18:03] <Zakim> Attendees were bijan, Jeremy, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, pfps, +049351aaaa, carsten, alanr, +1.518.276.aabb, jhendler, +1.518.608.aacc, Conrad, Deborah
[18:03] [Jeremy] jjc: I need to think about F2F, and arrange time with chairs for TF at F2F, and use next weeks meeting for last minute planning