Chatlog 2009-04-29

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00:00:00 <schneid> present: Achille Fokoue, Antoine Zimmermann, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Bijan Parsia, Boris Motik, Christine Golbreich, Deborah McGuinness, Ian Horrocks, Ivan Herman, Jie Bao, Mike Smith, Peter Patel-Schneider, Sandro Hawke, Sebastian Rudolph, Uli Sattler, Michael Schneider, Zhe Wu
00:00:00 <schneid> chair: Ian Horrocks
00:00:00 <schneid> scribe: Michael Schneider
00:00:00 <schneid> regrets: Markus Krötzsch, Evan Wallace, Elisa Kendall, Rinke Hoekstra 
16:56:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:56:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/29-owl-irc
16:56:31 <bijan> bijan has joined #owl
16:56:37 <IanH> Zakim, this will be owlwg
16:56:37 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
16:56:51 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2009.04.29/Agenda
16:57:11 <msmith> msmith has joined #owl
16:57:24 <DeborahM> DeborahM has joined #owl
16:58:28 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
16:58:28 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has not yet started, IanH
16:58:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see DeborahM, msmith, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, zimmer, ivan, sebastian, trackbot
16:58:41 <schneid> schneid has joined #owl
16:59:45 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
16:59:45 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has not yet started, IanH
16:59:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see schneid, DeborahM, msmith, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, zimmer, ivan, sebastian, trackbot
17:00:12 <pfps> pfps has joined #owl
17:00:13 <baojie> baojie has joined #owl
17:00:21 <uli> uli has joined #owl
17:00:28 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:00:28 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has not yet started, IanH
17:00:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see uli, baojie, pfps, schneid, DeborahM, msmith, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, zimmer, ivan, sebastian, trackbot
17:00:36 <bijan> zakim, what time is it?
17:00:36 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, bijan.
17:00:42 <IanH> zakim, this is owl
17:00:42 <Zakim> ok, IanH; that matches SW_OWL()1:00PM
17:00:50 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:00:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see +03539149aaaa, Ian_Horrocks, ??P26, ??P30, [IPcaller], pfps, ??P0, +1.202.408.aabb
17:00:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see uli, baojie, pfps, schneid, DeborahM, msmith, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, zimmer, ivan, sebastian, trackbot
17:01:01 <Zhe> Zhe has joined #owl
17:01:07 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:01:33 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aacc
17:01:41 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aadd
17:01:51 <Zhe> zakim, +1.603.897.aadd is me
17:01:51 <Zakim> +Zhe; got it
17:01:57 <baojie> Zakim, aacc is me
17:01:57 <Zakim> +baojie; got it
17:01:57 <Zhe> zakim, mute me
17:01:58 <Zakim> Zhe should now be muted
17:02:15 <bijan> zakim, ??p30 is me
17:02:16 <Zakim> +??P17
17:02:19 <Zakim> +bijan; got it
17:02:21 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:02:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see +03539149aaaa, Ian_Horrocks, ??P26, bijan, pfps, ??P0, msmith, baojie, Zhe (muted), ??P17
17:02:25 <uli> zakim, ??P0 is me
17:02:31 <schneid> zakim, ??P17 is me
17:02:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see Zhe, uli, baojie, pfps, schneid, DeborahM, msmith, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, zimmer, ivan, sebastian, trackbot
17:02:35 <Zakim> +uli; got it
17:02:37 <Zakim> +schneid; got it
17:02:41 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:02:45 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:02:49 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaee
17:02:50 <schneid> zakim, mute me
17:02:53 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted
17:02:58 <IanH> ScribeNick: schneid
17:03:03 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:03:04 <schneid> zakim, unmute me
17:03:06 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
17:03:07 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:03:09 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted
17:03:16 <bmotik> bmotik has joined #owl
17:03:17 <sebastian> zakim, ??P26 is me
17:03:23 <ivan> zakim, mute me
17:03:26 <Zakim> +sebastian; got it
17:03:28 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
17:03:29 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:03:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see +03539149aaaa, Ian_Horrocks, sebastian, bijan, pfps, uli (muted), msmith, baojie, Zhe (muted), schneid, +1.518.276.aaee, Ivan (muted)
17:03:32 <schneid> topic: Admin
17:03:35 <schneid> subtopic: Role Call
17:03:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see bmotik, Zhe, uli, baojie, pfps, schneid, DeborahM, msmith, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, zimmer, ivan, sebastian, trackbot
17:03:39 <zimmer> Zakim, +03539149aaaa is me
17:03:40 <sebastian> zakim, mute me
17:03:42 <Zakim> +zimmer; got it
17:03:46 <Zakim> sebastian should now be muted
17:03:48 <Zakim> + +0186528aaff
17:03:52 <schneid> subtopic: Agenda Amendments
17:03:52 <Achille> Achille has joined #owl
17:04:01 <bmotik> Zakim, +0186528aaff is me
17:04:01 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
17:04:04 <Zakim> +[IBM]
17:04:05 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:04:08 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:04:14 <Zakim> +??P22
17:04:15 <Achille> zakim, ibm is me
17:04:16 <Zakim> +Achille; got it
17:04:16 <schneid> ian: QRG discussion at beginning, because some champions will have to leave soon
17:04:18 <christine> christine has joined #owl
17:04:22 <schneid> subtopic: Accept Previous Minutes
17:04:24 <msmith> they are not so good
17:04:24 <pfps> minutes looked OK by me
17:04:35 <msmith> q+
17:04:50 <bcuencagrau> bcuencagrau has joined #owl
17:05:11 <msmith> q-
17:05:12 <uli> ...perhaps Peter doesn't mind  things petering out?
17:05:12 <schneid> msmith: large parts have no scribing, only irc chat
17:05:25 <schneid> christine: it was difficult to write at the end
17:05:47 <schneid> ian: christine, could you again clean it up a bit
17:05:50 <schneid> christine: i did
17:05:54 <Zakim> +bmotik.a
17:06:00 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, bmotik.a is me
17:06:00 <Zakim> +bcuencagrau; got it
17:06:06 <schneid> christine: can anyone help me with clean up?
17:06:17 <pfps> I don't think that there is anything particularly important missing.
17:06:20 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, mute me
17:06:20 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted
17:06:24 <schneid> ian: trouble is that there is not much there to clean up
17:06:25 <msmith> ok by me
17:06:32 <schneid> ian: should we just accept them as they are?
17:06:46 <schneid> ian: if no one objects, then accept them
17:06:59 <schneid> subtopic: Action Item Status
17:07:28 <schneid> ian: peter did Action 332
17:07:50 <schneid> ian: Action 333, review of NF&R: next week
17:08:00 <schneid> topic: Documents and Reviewing
17:08:05 <schneid> subtopic: LC Comments on rdf:text
17:08:09 <schneid> ian: we got comment on rdf:text
17:08:13 <ivan> q+
17:08:19 <ivan> ack ivan
17:08:21 <IanH> ack ivan
17:08:29 <IanH> q?
17:08:30 <schneid> ian: don't know perfectly how to deal with these comments
17:08:46 <bijan> q+
17:08:49 <ivan> zakim, unmute ivan
17:08:49 <Zakim> Ivan was not muted, ivan
17:08:51 <IanH> ack bijan
17:09:13 <schneid> bijan: it's highly likely the sparql wg will have a comment on rdf:text
17:09:56 <schneid> bijan: i was talking to andy seaborne, who is main pusher, and he thinks that comment will not be LC regeneration comment
17:09:58 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:10:07 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:10:07 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
17:10:09 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:10:13 <Zakim> +Sandro
17:10:18 <sandro> sandro has joined #owl
17:10:34 <schneid> ian: hasn't andy seaborne reviewed it already?
17:10:35 <sandro> (sorry I'm late.)
17:10:43 <schneid> bijan: yes, but not from the sparql perspective
17:11:22 <schneid> bijan: there may be things that are surprising to him, and that he did not thought about before
17:11:48 <schneid> ian: who do we have to work on rdf:text?
17:11:52 <bijan> One thread: <http://www.w3.org/mid/49F6C028.1000006@deri.org>
17:11:55 <IanH> q?
17:12:00 <schneid> ian: probably boris
17:12:26 <schneid> ivan: axel polleres is both editor of rdf:text and he is on the sparql wg
17:12:48 <bmotik> q+
17:12:49 <schneid> ivan: believes that axel is trying to take action on this
17:12:51 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:12:51 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:12:51 <IanH> q?
17:12:55 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:13:06 <schneid> ian: and we can wait one more week to see what happens
17:13:23 <schneid> boris: axel has already made some smaller changes to the document
17:13:29 <bijan> Him
17:13:40 <schneid> ian: we already have a comment on rdf:text
17:13:42 <bmotik> q+
17:13:47 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:13:59 <schneid> boris: i made an informal comment to him
17:14:16 <schneid> boris: made clear that is personal response
17:14:25 <sandro> (boris' reply to Michael was good, and a good thing to do.)
17:14:33 <schneid> boris: this guy was complaining about the "#"
17:14:59 <IanH> q?
17:15:27 <schneid> boris: we maybe have to change the document to talk about qnames, but don't know how to do it exactly
17:15:30 <bijan> q+
17:15:38 <IanH> q?
17:15:40 <IanH> ack bijan
17:15:50 <schneid> ian: can we have some try in the wiki?
17:17:12 <schneid> subtopic: QRG (Agenda Amendment)
17:17:35 <schneid> ian: we forgot about the agenda amendmend: QRG
17:17:37 <IanH> q?
17:18:00 <schneid> jie: peter made several comments, many editorial
17:18:58 <IanH> q?
17:19:06 <schneid> jie: links to other documents may be useful to new users
#17:19:09 <bijan> q+ to ask about why it would useful to users new to owl altogether
17:19:22 <schneid> jie: specifically the links to the primer
17:20:14 <schneid> ian: is the QRG close to ship?
17:20:17 <pfps> QRG is missing some constructs, still, I think
17:20:21 <IanH> q?
17:20:23 <schneid> jie: the web version seems close
17:20:28 <IanH> ack bijan
17:20:28 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to ask about why it would useful to users new to owl altogether
17:20:55 <IanH> q?
17:21:21 <IanH> q?
17:21:37 <schneid> jie: people coming from owl 1 will find helpful links to NF&R to understand the changes
17:21:40 <IanH> q?
17:21:54 <bijan> I'm against the links to Primer too
17:21:58 <pfps> q+
17:22:01 <bijan> But I was confused by what Jie said
17:22:01 <schneid> christine: those links are useful
17:22:07 <IanH> q?
17:22:27 <schneid> christine: first they are harmless
17:22:37 <schneid> christine: second helpful for navigation
17:22:48 <bijan> Some of us don't think they are harmless
17:23:03 <schneid> christine: we should focus on content of document, not so much on the links
17:23:22 <bijan> (Links are part of the content as well.)
17:23:34 <IanH> ack pfps
17:23:40 <schneid> ian: only trouble, there needs to be actual means for the links
17:24:14 <uli> +1 to Peter: I thought these links would be "arguments"!
17:24:21 <schneid> pfps: disagrees with christine, they are harmful, introduce bloat, and extra bits are not part of the natural structure of the document
17:24:28 <IanH> ack baojie
17:24:47 <bijan> Also, I think the "new" will get dated
17:24:49 <bijan> q+
17:24:56 <IanH> q?
17:24:57 <uli> q+
17:25:08 <bijan> q-
17:25:16 <bijan> I'll just say that the "new" bits will get dated over time
#17:25:23 <schneid> jie: if we add the links...
17:25:33 <bijan> They won't be "new", so it's bad to *highlight* them
17:25:50 <schneid> ian: modulo links, are people currently happy with the document?
17:25:57 <uli> zakim, unmute me
17:25:57 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
17:25:58 <IanH> ack uli
17:26:31 <IanH> q?
17:26:48 <schneid> uli: i'm a bit puzzled because of the links, since the QRG was designed to be printed to paper, used offline at desktop, where there are no links
17:27:09 <pfps> I also do not like the top-level divisions, and have expressed this in the past
17:27:23 <bijan> q+ I think I should say it
17:27:24 <IanH> q?
17:27:54 <IanH> ack christine
17:28:23 <DeborahM> q+
17:28:28 <schneid> christine: question, is it the fact that we don't want to point to the NF&R?
17:28:44 <bijan> q+ to talk against highlighting new features
17:28:51 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:28:51 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:28:55 <pfps> The NF&R pointers are bad in two ways - 1/ the "anchor" is distracting, 2/ the link itself is of very limited utility
17:29:23 <IanH> q?
17:29:25 <schneid> ian: there's no other purpose of the things in the document than pointing to the NF&R
17:29:31 <IanH> ack baojie
17:29:50 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:29:51 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:30:04 <uli> ok
17:30:11 <schneid> jie: if we have www version with links, and pdf version without
17:30:12 <IanH> q?
17:30:22 <schneid> jie: that's technically doable
17:30:25 <pfps> But the PDF version should have links!  Just when printed they don't work.
17:30:26 <IanH> ack DeborahM
17:30:42 <bijan> It's easy with a stylesheet to target print vs. screen
17:30:44 <pfps> q+ to remind us of the goals for QRG
17:30:47 <IanH> q?
17:30:58 <schneid> deb: my reading of the comments is that we have general agreement on the document's content
17:31:29 <schneid> deb: editors think that there should be a web version with and pdf version without links
17:31:34 <uli> sure - but I repeat Bijan's point: the NF&R links will 'outdate'?
17:31:41 <schneid> deb: believe that more links in the web version are good
17:32:02 <IanH> q?
17:32:06 <baojie> ok
17:32:12 <IanH> ack bijan
17:32:12 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to talk against highlighting new features
17:32:14 <pfps> q-
17:32:15 <IanH> q?
17:32:15 <pfps> q+
17:32:47 <IanH> q?
17:33:02 <IanH> q?
17:33:07 <schneid> bijan: highlighting new features is not a good idea for this document, because users should not care about this
17:33:24 <IanH> q?
17:33:24 <schneid> bijan: so isn't the highlighting already harmful
17:33:33 <IanH> ack christine
17:34:30 <IanH> ack pfps
17:35:05 <sandro> maybe time for a straw poll?
17:35:12 <schneid> pfps: issue is that we should come up with a document that is a real recommendation for people
17:35:18 <IanH> q?
17:35:27 <bijan> I wonder if the authors could address my point that highlighting new things might be overall bad
17:35:27 <schneid> pfps: not to make all wg members happy
17:35:39 <bijan> Because they overemphasize them
17:35:40 <IanH> q?
17:35:46 <schneid> pfps: there are still missing features, e.g. datatype definitions
17:36:08 <schneid> pfps: lots has changed
17:36:22 <IanH> q?
17:36:30 <IanH> q?
17:36:35 <schneid> ian: what about overall structure?
17:36:39 <IanH> q?
17:36:44 <IanH> ack christine
17:37:07 <IanH> q?
17:37:17 <IanH> ack baojie
17:37:20 <IanH> q?
17:37:29 <schneid> christine: question about functional syntax
17:37:36 <bijan> I like the letters
17:37:42 <bijan> Easier to pattern match
17:37:49 <bijan> q+
17:37:55 <IanH> q?
17:38:04 <IanH> ack bijan
17:38:06 <pfps> possibly missing features - datatype definitions
17:38:07 <christine> OPE
17:38:16 <IanH> q?
17:38:20 <baojie> +1 to bijan
17:38:21 <schneid> jie: letter sequence "ce" makes printout larger
17:38:31 <bijan> MInor indeed
17:38:41 <schneid> ian: all these things are editorially and minor
17:38:44 <pfps> the basic outline is acceptable
17:38:44 <IanH> q?
17:39:07 <schneid> ian: i don't hear anyone talking against general structure
17:39:20 <bijan> q+
17:39:20 <IanH> q?
17:39:24 <christine> Evan is not there
17:39:30 <IanH> ack bijan
17:39:36 <schneid> ian: we should have a decision on the more concrete technical issues
17:39:51 <IanH> q?
17:39:57 <msmith> +1 to bijan's suggestion
17:40:09 <IanH> q?
17:40:09 <christine> what suggestion ?
17:40:11 <schneid> bijan: want's to hear from editors about suggestion /not/ to highlight new features
17:40:26 <IanH> q?
17:40:29 <msmith> I agree with the suggestion that new features should not be highlighted in QRG
17:40:34 <sandro> +1 to not having the new-feature high-lighting.
17:40:37 <IanH> q?
17:40:38 <uli> me too
17:40:39 <schneid> bijan: if you are using this card for two years, do you still care about new features being highlighted?
17:40:41 <christine> but keep (N) ?
17:40:51 <pfps> this document is a QRG to *OWL 2* so highlighting the differences only detracts from its utility
17:41:01 <IanH> q?
17:41:25 <IanH> q?
17:41:35 <DeborahM> my summary of what i heard is (1) make sure we address pfps's content suggestions, possibly a suggestion from uli on a small reorganization, (3) leave short names for the momentbut possibly expand if working group decide
17:41:41 <DeborahM> q+
17:42:23 <IanH> q?
17:42:28 <pfps> uli's suggestion would require a reordering of the document and a redo of the sections, but little more, I thin
17:42:48 <IanH> ack DeborahM
17:42:50 <Zhe> it is such a subjective matter :)
17:42:59 <christine> what about linking to NF&R for new features instead of Primer ?
17:43:30 <ivan> q+
17:43:32 <IanH> q?
17:43:40 <IanH> ack ivan
17:43:56 <bijan> Or one could have a toggle
17:43:59 <schneid> deb: sees a point with bijan's argument, bold too much, but no mentioning of new features is too less
17:44:00 <pfps> -1 to separate list on web version
#17:44:07 <bijan> q+ to suggest a toggle
17:44:13 <IanH> q?
17:44:14 <DeborahM> +1 to ivan  (with that list including links)
17:44:17 <schneid> ivan: what about only having mentioning the new features on the web version
17:44:28 <uli> -1 to even more docs
17:44:33 <IanH> q?
17:44:39 <IanH> ack bijan
17:44:39 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to suggest a toggle
17:44:42 <IanH> q?
17:44:51 <pfps> -1 to toggling
17:44:58 <schneid> bijan: what about making the highlighting toggleable?
17:45:11 <IanH> q?
17:45:14 <IanH> q?
17:45:38 <christine> +1 Ivan
17:46:06 <IanH> q?
17:46:11 <bijan> I can live with it
17:46:20 <pfps> q+
17:46:23 <baojie> ok with it
17:46:25 <IanH> ack pfps
17:46:30 <DeborahM> i can live with ivan's or bijan's suggestion
17:46:41 <schneid> ian: ivan's proposal sounds most acceptable to most of us
17:46:54 <msmith> I agree with pfps, but can live with the suggestion.
17:47:06 <bmotik> I agree with peter here.
17:47:10 <schneid> pfps: new'ness is not a point for this particular document
17:47:10 <bijan> I agree with pfps, but am with msmith
17:47:22 <bmotik> In a year from now, all features will be old (and dusty).
17:47:24 <IanH> q?
17:47:25 <pfps> q+
17:47:32 <bijan> q+
17:47:37 <pfps> q-
17:47:39 <IanH> ack christine
17:48:25 <IanH> q?
17:49:02 <DeborahM> i have to run now.  if we vote for ivan's suggestion i vote +1 for that but can also support bijan's toggling proposal
17:49:09 <IanH> ack bijan
17:49:24 <IanH> q?
17:50:11 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aaee
17:50:14 <schneid> bijan: prefers toggle, because it's weird to have information in the web version which is not in the paper version, when the paper version is the real target document
17:50:25 <IanH> q?
17:50:27 <pfps> I've been most in favour of making this document something that lives in the WG web pages, and is not a TR at all.
17:50:34 <IanH> q?
17:50:44 <schneid> bijan: having a separate list is getting into other documents responsibility
17:51:00 <bijan> q+
17:51:07 <IanH> q?
17:51:20 <schneid> pfps: it's meant to be a simple document, but with toggles
17:51:35 <IanH> q?
17:51:38 <schneid> bijan: is this particular thing such a problem?
17:51:40 <IanH> ack bijan
17:52:01 <schneid> pfps: toggle would need additional space
17:52:08 <IanH> q?
17:52:15 <schneid> bijan: there is already additional stuff in the web version
17:52:21 <IanH> q?
17:52:43 <schneid> bijan: but links to NF&R in print version do not make much sense in genaral
17:53:11 <ivan> I am o.k. with bijan
17:53:16 <schneid> bijan: deb said she can live with both bijan's and ivan's suggestion
17:53:20 <IanH> q?
17:53:46 <schneid> christine: decision will affect NF&R
17:53:53 <bijan> How does it affect NF&R?
17:54:05 <ivan> q+
17:54:10 <ivan> ack christine
17:54:13 <uli> christine, toggle means 'switch-offable'  
17:54:17 <IanH> q?
17:54:17 <uli> and switch-onable
17:54:18 <pfps> the decision should be made today, as after we make the decision the document has to be fixed up
17:54:42 <uli> (1) toggle (2) extra list
17:54:49 <uli> (3) as it is
17:55:01 <christine> how make switc-offable ?
17:55:02 <uli> (4) throw all refs to new features away
17:55:06 <msmith> 4,1,2,3
17:55:15 <bijan> 4,1,-,-
17:55:22 <baojie> 2,1,3
17:55:26 <schneid>  schneid: 4,1,2,3
17:55:26 <bmotik> 4,-,-,-
17:55:27 <pfps> 4,-,-,-
17:55:27 <zimmer> 1, 3, 4, 2
17:55:33 <bcuencagrau> 4,2,1,3
17:55:33 <sandro> 2,1,3
17:55:34 <ivan> 2143
17:55:38 <christine> 1
17:55:40 <Zhe> 2, 3, 1, 4
17:55:42 <uli> 4,1,2
17:55:43 <IanH> 4,2,1,3
17:55:51 <Achille> 2,1
17:56:23 <uli> we could have a togglable extra list?
17:56:35 <uli> we can!
17:56:38 <schneid> ian: no one wan't leave things as they are
17:57:19 <IanH> q?
17:57:27 <schneid> ian: we have either throw everything away or have the list
17:57:37 <schneid> bijan: often, the second choice was "toggle"
17:58:06 <schneid> ian: not so easy to do good quick statistical analysis
17:58:22 <schneid> ian: nobody likes 3 ("keep as is")
17:58:30 <schneid> ian: so let's again vote for only 1, 2 and 4
17:58:31 <sandro> strawpoll: (1) toggle, (2) extra list, (4) throw all refs to new features away
17:58:33 <ivan> 214
17:58:34 <pfps> 4--
17:58:37 <bmotik> 4--
17:58:41 <bijan> 4,1,-
17:58:41 <msmith> 4,1,2
17:58:41 <uli> 4,1,2
17:58:42 <sebastian> 4,2,1
17:58:44 <baojie> 21-
17:58:45 <bcuencagrau> 4,2,1
17:58:45 <Zhe> 214
17:58:46 <zimmer> 1 4
17:58:49 <IanH> 4,2,1
17:58:50 <schneid>  schneid: 4,1,2
17:58:56 <sandro> 241
17:58:58 <Achille> 2, 1
17:59:12 <christine> 1 2
17:59:29 <schneid> ian: a bit more split between 4 and 2, but sees bijan's point
17:59:42 <IanH> q?
18:00:32 <IanH> q?
18:00:42 <IanH> ack ivan
18:01:01 <bijan> Actually, I don't care anymore :)
18:01:22 <schneid> ivan: whether it is 1 or 2, there's no big difference, so bijan's proposal would be fine
18:01:27 <bmotik> I won't lie down in the road.
18:01:28 <bijan> What do they prefer, 1 or 2?
18:01:43 <bmotik> I guess 2
18:01:49 <bijan> Ok, fine
18:01:51 <bijan> I go for it
18:02:05 <IanH> ack christine
18:02:23 <uli> christine, open a new connection?
18:02:37 <zimmer> ok for list at the end
18:02:59 <sandro> strawpoll: list at end
18:02:59 <ivan> +1
18:03:02 <bcuencagrau> +1
18:03:03 <baojie> +1
18:03:04 <sandro> +1
18:03:09 <IanH> 0
18:03:09 <schneid>  schneid: -0.1
18:03:09 <zimmer> +0.2
18:03:10 <uli> 0
18:03:10 <bijan> +0
18:03:11 <sebastian> 0
18:03:11 <bmotik> +1
18:03:12 <Achille> 0
18:03:13 <Zhe> 0
18:03:14 <msmith> 0
18:03:16 <pfps> -0, as long as the list is very compact
18:03:30 <bijan> Make it
18:03:31 <sandro> 0.5 point font, pfps.
18:03:46 <sandro> ("point five point"  :-)
18:05:10 <IanH> All emphasis on and links to new features to go from existing tables. A new short table to be added to the end of the document with list of new features and links to NF&R.
18:05:24 <pfps> This looks fine.
18:05:27 <baojie> ok
18:05:27 <ivan> yep
18:05:44 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:05:44 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:06:08 <Zhe> :_
18:06:11 <sandro> s/to go/will be removed/
18:06:21 <msmith> Christine, you may find IRC more reliable if you try a different client, instead of the w3 web cgi.
18:06:23 <pfps> As far as I am concerned, this list could even go in the card, if there is space.
18:06:32 <bijan> Yeah, me too
18:06:44 <sandro> msmith, Christine can't read that!
18:07:26 <IanH> PROPOSED: All emphasis on and links to new features will be removed from existing tables in QRG. A new short table to be added to the end of the document with list of new features and links to NF&R.
18:07:33 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:07:33 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:07:36 <ivan> +1
18:07:38 <pfps> +0
18:07:45 <Zhe> 0
18:07:48 <baojie> +1
18:07:49 <uli> +1
18:07:51 <sebastian> +0
18:07:52 <Achille> 0
18:07:52 <bijan> +0
18:07:54 <msmith> 0
18:07:55 <zimmer> 0
18:07:57 <IanH> 0
18:07:59 <schneid>  schneid: -0
18:08:01 <bmotik> +0
18:08:03 <christine> 0
18:08:04 <bcuencagrau> 0
18:08:10 <sandro> +1
18:08:28 <IanH> RESOLVED: All emphasis on and links to new features will be removed from existing tables in QRG. A new short table to be added to the end of the document with list of new features and links to NF&R.
18:08:44 <schneid> ian: is very happy with the resolution
18:08:50 <baojie> :)
18:09:27 <schneid> subtopic: OWL LC Comments
18:09:40 <schneid> ian: anyone other than peter and boris looked at umberto's comments
18:09:45 <uli> I did
18:09:54 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:09:54 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:10:08 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:10:08 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:10:09 <IanH> q?
18:10:13 <schneid> uli: drafted responses look fine
18:10:52 <IanH> q?
18:11:12 <IanH> q?
18:11:15 <schneid> subtopic: NF&R
18:11:16 <schneid> ian: christine, is NF&R ready to go?
18:11:23 <pfps> NF&R is looking quite reasonable
18:11:43 <schneid> christine: basically yes, but still have a few questions to peter's comments
18:11:59 <schneid> ian: ok, please discuss offline
18:12:07 <sebastian> zakim, unmute me
18:12:07 <Zakim> sebastian should no longer be muted
18:12:13 <schneid> subtopic: Primer
18:12:32 <IanH> q?
18:12:34 <bijan> I'm working on it now
18:12:40 <schneid> sebastian: we did quite some work on primer in the last week
18:12:46 <bijan> Should be done tonight
18:13:06 <IanH> q?
18:13:07 <pfps> Primer needs reviewing
18:13:10 <schneid> sebastian: there are some things to be done by bijan
18:13:18 <pfps> .... not shipping
18:13:55 <schneid> bijan: there will be perhaps some disagreement about the granularity, but mostly editorial
18:14:01 <sebastian> zakim, mute me
18:14:01 <Zakim> sebastian should now be muted
18:14:04 <IanH> q?
18:14:09 <schneid> ian: volunteers for reviewing?
18:14:35 <schneid> ian: would be due 13 May
18:14:38 <msmith> I can review by 13 May
18:15:13 <pfps> earlier reviews are much better, and more likely to be effective :-)
18:15:15 <schneid> ian: will take it offline and ask, but msmith will be the number one
18:15:44 <schneid> topic: Implementation and Test Cases
18:15:50 <schneid> subtopic: Progress on Tool Support
18:15:47 <IanH> q?
18:15:57 <IanH> q?
18:16:02 <schneid> ian: there is this validation tool issue
18:16:10 <IanH> q?
18:16:11 <msmith> q+
18:16:40 <IanH> ack msmith
18:16:45 <schneid> ian: seems to use the owl api for reading ontologies
18:17:12 <schneid> msmith: we don't have anything for species validation
18:17:58 <schneid> ian: we would like to have species validation for owl/xml
18:18:19 <schneid> ian: all i know is that some things are repaired away
18:18:59 <schneid> ian: can we talk to owl api people to have some strict mode?
18:19:11 <msmith> action bijan to talk with owlapi people about strict rdf/xml parsing
18:19:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-335 - Talk with owlapi people about strict rdf/xml parsing [on Bijan Parsia - due 2009-05-06].
18:19:12 <schneid> subtopic: Progress Report
18:19:15 <msmith> q+
18:19:15 <IanH> q?
18:19:19 <IanH> ack msmith
18:19:28 <bijan> I wrote tests!
18:19:46 <schneid> msmith: little bit of progress, new page on wiki showing results for pellet and hermit
18:19:57 <bijan> Pointer to those tests?
18:20:01 <bijan> result?
18:20:05 <pfps> is there a link from the home page or LHS of the wiki to the current test status?
18:20:06 <schneid> msmith: some new tests, and some changed status
18:20:25 <schneid> msmith: new page showing coverage of the language
18:20:42 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test_Suite_Status
18:20:53 <schneid> ian: how many tests do we have now?
18:21:18 <schneid> ian: do we have one test for each construct?
18:21:35 <bijan> I have them
18:21:46 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test_Suite_Status
18:22:01 <schneid> ian: what about results and putting on wiki?
18:22:15 <schneid> bijan: that's what the status page is about
18:22:50 <schneid> msmith: there is an "incomplete" result type, including timeout etc
18:22:59 <schneid> ian: what about "extra credit"?
18:23:22 <IanH> q?
18:23:27 <schneid> ian: looks better when exiting cr
18:23:47 <schneid> bijan: we should make sure to cover all syntactic features
18:23:51 <msmith> ok
18:23:55 <msmith> q+
18:24:03 <IanH> ack msmith
18:24:17 <bijan> 1 reasoner does it :)
18:24:36 <schneid> msmith: how do we get "extra credit" testcases?
18:26:15 <schneid> ian: let's defer syntactic tests: TC is short on time, and alanr is not here
18:26:33 <schneid> topic: AOB
18:26:50 <schneid> ian: we're done
18:26:57 <Zhe> bye
18:26:59 <Zakim> -Sandro
18:27:00 <Zakim> -bijan
18:27:01 <Zakim> -msmith
18:27:03 <Zakim> -baojie
18:27:05 <zimmer> bye
18:27:06 <Zakim> -Achille
18:27:10 <sebastian> Bye.
18:27:11 <Zakim> -bcuencagrau
18:27:16 <Zakim> -Zhe
18:27:31 <Zakim> -zimmer
18:27:31 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public
#18:27:38 <uli> Ian, check the following link out (during dinner!): 
#18:27:47 <uli> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z19zFlPah-o
18:28:32 <Zakim> -bmotik
18:28:38 <Zakim> -Ian_Horrocks
18:28:43 <Zakim> -Ivan
18:28:44 <Zakim> -pfps
18:28:46 <Zakim> -uli
18:28:56 <Zakim> -sebastian
18:29:19 <Zakim> -??P22
18:29:45 <Zakim> -schneid
18:29:46 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
18:29:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Ian_Horrocks, [IPcaller], pfps, +1.202.408.aabb, msmith, +1.518.276.aacc, Zhe, baojie, bijan, uli, schneid, +1.518.276.aaee, Ivan, sebastian, zimmer, bmotik,
#18:29:49 <sandro> insane, uli !
18:29:51 <Zakim> ... Achille, bcuencagrau, Sandro
18:41:27 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public
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19:50:31 <uli> uli has left #owl
20:31:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #owl
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