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Chatlog 2009-02-04
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00:00:00 <scribenick> PRESENT: bijan (muted), Rinke (muted), bmotik (muted), Evan_Wallace, IanH, Sandro, Achille, MarkusK_, Michael Schneider (muted), uli (muted), Alan Ruttenberg, Ivan, Bernardo, Christine, Jie, Mike Smith, Peter Patel-Schneider, zhe, Martin 17:52:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl 17:52:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/04-owl-irc 17:53:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #owl 17:53:14 <Rinke> ScribeNick: Rinke 17:54:48 <bijan> zakim, who is here? 17:54:48 <Zakim> sorry, bijan, I don't know what conference this is 17:54:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Rinke, bijan, alanr, sandro, trackbot, ewallace 17:54:54 <bijan> zakim, this is owl 17:54:55 <Zakim> ok, bijan; that matches SW_OWL()1:00PM 17:55:05 <bijan> zakim, who is here? 17:55:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1 17:55:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Rinke, bijan, alanr, sandro, trackbot, ewallace 17:55:12 <bijan> zakim, ??p1 is me 17:55:13 <Zakim> +bijan; got it 17:55:23 <bmotik> bmotik has joined #owl 17:55:32 <bmotik> Zakim, this will be owl 17:55:32 <Zakim> ok, bmotik, I see SW_OWL()1:00PM already started 17:56:29 <Zakim> +??P0 17:56:37 <Zakim> + +86528aaaa 17:56:43 <Rinke> zakim, ??P0 is me 17:56:43 <Zakim> +Rinke; got it 17:56:50 <bmotik> Zakim, +86528aaaa is me 17:56:50 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it 17:56:54 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me 17:56:54 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted 17:57:00 <Rinke> zakim, mute me 17:57:00 <Zakim> Rinke should now be muted 17:57:26 <bijan> zakim, mute me 17:57:26 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted 17:57:48 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace 17:57:53 <IanH> IanH has joined #owl 17:58:07 <alanr> FYI I am traveling and a promised spot for me to chair from did not materialize. I have contacted Ian, who I expect to be here. If not I will chair using sometimes flakey skype connection in hotel room. 17:58:18 <alanr> ah, there you are Ian 17:58:39 <IanH> yes 17:58:56 <alanr> did you get my text/email? 17:58:58 <Zakim> +Ian_Horrocks 17:59:07 <IanH> about chairing? yes 17:59:12 <Zakim> +Sandro 17:59:24 <Achille> Achille has joined #owl 17:59:29 <Rinke> rrsagent, make records public 17:59:30 <alanr> ok. apologies for the late notice (which is less than I got when they didn't cough up the promised room) 17:59:41 <IanH> no prob 18:00:05 <Zakim> +[IBM] 18:00:10 <MarkusK_> MarkusK_ has joined #owl 18:00:12 <Achille> Zakim, IBM is me 18:00:12 <Zakim> +Achille; got it 18:00:17 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2009.02.04/Agenda 18:00:26 <bcuencagrau> bcuencagrau has joined #owl 18:00:28 <schneid> schneid has joined #owl 18:00:32 <IanH> ScribeNick: Rinke 18:00:51 <IanH> zakim, Ian_Horrocks is IanH 18:00:51 <Zakim> +IanH; got it 18:01:00 <IanH> zakim, who is here? 18:01:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke (muted), bmotik (muted), Evan_Wallace, IanH, Sandro, Achille 18:01:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see schneid, bcuencagrau, MarkusK_, Achille, IanH, bmotik, Zakim, RRSAgent, Rinke, bijan, alanr, sandro, trackbot, ewallace 18:01:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 18:01:21 <Zakim> +??P13 18:01:29 <schneid> zakim, ??P13 is me 18:01:29 <Zakim> +schneid; got it 18:01:32 <Zakim> + +0186528aabb 18:01:33 <schneid> zakim, mute me 18:01:33 <uli> uli has joined #owl 18:01:33 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted 18:01:35 <uli_> uli_ has joined #owl 18:01:37 <IanH> zakim, who is here? 18:01:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke (muted), bmotik (muted), Evan_Wallace, IanH, Sandro, Achille, MarkusK_, schneid (muted), +0186528aabb 18:01:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see uli_, uli, schneid, bcuencagrau, MarkusK_, Achille, IanH, bmotik, Zakim, RRSAgent, Rinke, bijan, alanr, sandro, trackbot, ewallace 18:01:52 <Zakim> +??P15 18:01:54 <Zakim> - +0186528aabb 18:02:01 <uli> zakim, ??P15 is me 18:02:01 <Zakim> +uli; got it 18:02:03 <IanH> zakim, who is here? 18:02:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke (muted), bmotik (muted), Evan_Wallace, IanH, Sandro, Achille, MarkusK_, schneid (muted), uli 18:02:05 <uli> zakim, mute me 18:02:11 <Zakim> uli should now be muted 18:02:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see uli_, uli, schneid, bcuencagrau, MarkusK_, Achille, IanH, bmotik, Zakim, RRSAgent, Rinke, bijan, alanr, sandro, trackbot, ewallace 18:02:19 <Rinke> topic: Admin 18:02:27 <IanH> zakim, who is here? 18:02:27 <Rinke> Roll call 18:02:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke (muted), bmotik (muted), Evan_Wallace, IanH, Sandro, Achille, MarkusK_, schneid (muted), uli (muted) 18:02:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see uli_, uli, schneid, bcuencagrau, MarkusK_, Achille, IanH, bmotik, Zakim, RRSAgent, Rinke, bijan, alanr, sandro, trackbot, ewallace 18:02:37 <Rinke> subtopic: agenda amendments? 18:02:40 <Zakim> + +0186528aacc 18:02:46 <bijan> me! 18:02:49 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, +0186528aacc is me 18:02:49 <Zakim> +bcuencagrau; got it 18:02:51 <Rinke> no amendments 18:02:53 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, mute me 18:02:53 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted 18:02:57 <bijan> I ahve an agenda amendment 18:02:57 <Rinke> PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (28 January) 18:03:10 <ivan> ivan has joined #owl 18:03:12 <MarkusK_> +1 18:03:17 <bijan> zakim, unmute me 18:03:18 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted 18:03:19 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 18:03:19 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 18:03:21 <Zakim> +Ivan 18:03:23 <Rinke> RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (28 January) 18:03:30 <IanH> q? 18:03:44 <Zakim> +??P9 18:03:48 <Rinke> Bijan finished action-275, move to pending 18:03:53 <alanr> zakim, ??P9 is alanr 18:03:53 <Zakim> +alanr; got it 18:03:57 <Rinke> subtopic: action item status 18:04:09 <IanH> q? 18:04:25 <Rinke> IanH: Action-271, Action-276, and Action-277 done? 18:04:26 <msmith> msmith has joined #owl 18:04:35 <Rinke> bijan: Action-265 is done as well... 18:04:35 <IanH> q? 18:04:44 <Rinke> bijan: looking at the wrong agenda 18:04:59 <Rinke> IanH: all of these are done 18:05:10 <Rinke> due and overdue actions 18:05:26 <alanr> 247 done. 264 not (scheduling issues) 18:05:31 <Rinke> bijan: with regard to action-276, I drafted a response, should I send it? 18:05:44 <Rinke> IanH: discuss this with the last call comments 18:05:45 <IanH> q? 18:06:08 <alanr> the action is done - a proposal has been made 18:06:17 <Zakim> + +1.202.408.aadd 18:06:22 <Rinke> ianh: Action-247 leave it there, lots of conclusion. 18:06:28 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me 18:06:28 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted 18:06:29 <Rinke> IanH: agree, proposal has been made, consider that done 18:06:31 <IanH> q? 18:06:33 <Rinke> action-264 18:06:40 <alanr> 264 scheduling snafus 18:06:41 <Rinke> IanH: any progress on that one? Alan? 18:06:41 <alanr> not done 18:06:52 <Rinke> IanH: ok, push that till next week 18:06:55 <Rinke> action-269 18:07:00 <bijan> It was mooted long agao 18:07:05 <bijan> It's moot 18:07:07 <bijan> Kill it 18:07:10 <alanr> closed last week 18:07:13 <IanH> q? 18:07:20 <ewallace> +1 18:07:22 <Rinke> bijan: moot after we assigned it 18:07:27 <Rinke> IanH: consider it closed 18:07:29 <Rinke> action-270 18:07:50 <Rinke> bmotik: would prefer a revision of the whole document, will be a bunch of other changes. Prefer to do them all at once 18:07:53 <alanr> this makes tracking much harder. 18:08:00 <alanr> Better to do them incrementally where possible. 18:08:03 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee 18:08:07 <Rinke> bmotik: decide at F2F, one action, and I'll do it. 18:08:14 <baojie> baojie has joined #owl 18:08:19 <alanr> q+ 18:08:25 <Zhe> Zhe has joined #owl 18:08:26 <IanH> q? 18:08:29 <Rinke> IanH: hm, ok, we'll leave it until you build up the necessary amendments that need to be made 18:08:31 <IanH> ack alanr 18:08:36 <IanH> zakim, who is here? 18:08:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan, Rinke (muted), bmotik, Evan_Wallace, IanH, Sandro, Achille, MarkusK_, schneid (muted), uli (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), Ivan, alanr, msmith, 18:08:42 <Zakim> ... +1.603.897.aaee 18:08:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see Zhe, baojie, msmith, ivan, uli_, uli, schneid, bcuencagrau, MarkusK_, Achille, IanH, bmotik, Zakim, RRSAgent, Rinke, bijan, alanr, sandro, trackbot, ewallace 18:08:51 <bijan> q+ 18:08:53 <bmotik> q+ 18:08:56 <Rinke> alanr: there are items that can be incrementally done, more easily, that would make identifying changes to people more easy 18:09:00 <alanr> q- 18:09:03 <IanH> q? 18:09:07 <alanr> q? 18:09:33 <Christine> Christine has joined #owl 18:09:33 <Zakim> +??P4 18:09:39 <IanH> q? 18:09:43 <IanH> ack bijan 18:09:49 <Rinke> IanH: I take that point as well. I see Boris' point as well. Where there are clear isolated changes, doing them directly can be done as well 18:09:56 <Christine> zakim, ??P4 is christine 18:09:56 <Zakim> +christine; got it 18:10:09 <Rinke> bijan: these are not at odds, we can do them incrementally in one go. 18:10:29 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaff 18:10:33 <Rinke> bijan: editorial changes... would be more sensible to make them part of one big rereview 18:10:41 <IanH> q? 18:10:44 <baojie> Zakim, aaff is baojie 18:10:44 <Zakim> +baojie; got it 18:11:03 <Rinke> IanH: we can take it on a case-by-case basis. The key-thing can be done, respond to jim, cross it of the list 18:11:08 <IanH> q? 18:11:10 <bmotik> q- 18:11:13 <Rinke> IanH: it doesn't make sense to do global comments in isolation 18:11:14 <IanH> ack boris 18:11:20 <Rinke> bmotik: exactly 18:11:39 <alanr> +1 18:11:42 <Rinke> IanH: case-by-case basis. For this particular comment, doing it right now does not make much sense 18:11:49 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me 18:11:49 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted 18:11:49 <Rinke> IanH: we'll leave it open 18:12:03 <bmotik> -) 18:12:07 <Rinke> IanH: would be good for you to have the pressure of an open action 18:12:09 <alanr> "it will do you good" 18:12:10 <Rinke> aciton-275 18:12:21 <IanH> q? 18:12:22 <Rinke> IanH: that's done, bijan? 18:12:28 <Rinke> bijan: all parts of it are done 18:12:36 <Rinke> action-273 18:12:42 <Rinke> IanH: have not finished it yet 18:12:50 <Rinke> IanH: (that's me slapping my own wrist) 18:12:53 <IanH> q? 18:12:54 <Rinke> IanH: done by next week 18:13:00 <Rinke> bijan: would you like to reassign it? 18:13:07 <Rinke> IanH: would be happy to work with you on it 18:13:15 <Rinke> action-272 18:13:25 <IanH> q? 18:13:33 <Rinke> IanH: wiki page by christine to deal with comments on new features and rationale. Is christine here? 18:13:40 <IanH> q? 18:13:46 <Rinke> Christine: it was too early to do it, I changed the due date 18:13:52 <Rinke> IanH: ok, fine. 18:14:07 <Rinke> subtopic: f2f5 18:14:23 <Rinke> IanH: make clear participation and non-participation wrt f2f5 18:14:28 <Zakim> -Ivan 18:14:37 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 18:14:37 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 18:14:38 <Zakim> +Ivan 18:14:50 <IanH> q? 18:14:53 <Rinke> IanH: 14 people in all, that's not a lot. There should be more people who know whether they can make it or not 18:14:57 <Rinke> topic: last call comments 18:15:32 <Rinke> IanH: some responses have already been drafted, for us to say yay or nay 18:15:49 <Rinke> Subtopic: MS1 18:15:49 <Rinke> IanH: MSI just a bug, changes were made to fix the bug 18:15:52 <ivan> pointer to the entry? 18:15:56 <IanH> q? 18:16:00 <IanH> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MS1 18:16:09 <alanr> +1 18:16:13 <alanr> to close 18:16:16 <msmith> +1 18:16:16 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider 18:16:19 <ivan> +1 18:16:23 <Rinke> IanH: happy to accept the change? 18:16:31 <bijan> +1 18:16:41 <IanH> q? 18:16:49 <pfps> pfps has joined #owl 18:16:51 <IanH> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MS1 18:16:54 <Rinke> IanH: peter, perhaps you can briefly explain the changes you made in response to MS1 18:17:37 <Rinke> pfps: under the last call version of the mapping from RDF back to the FS, it did not check for lists that shared tails, or crossed or looped. I changed the wording to forbid these kinds of situations. 18:17:47 <IanH> q? 18:17:55 <Rinke> pfps: requires all lists to be separate 18:18:10 <msmith> I'm ok without getting an email :) 18:18:11 <alanr> right 18:18:18 <Rinke> IanH: given that this is an internal LC comment... do we need to send an official message to msmith 18:18:28 <Rinke> pfps: but we should list it as a post LC change 18:18:48 <uli> +1 18:18:49 <alanr> emoting positively towards Mike for finding a bug. 18:18:50 <ivan> +1 18:18:50 <Zhe> +1 18:18:52 <alanr> +1 18:19:01 <baojie> +1 18:19:13 <alanr> and peter for fixing :) 18:19:18 <msmith> +1 18:19:20 <sandro> :-) 18:20:03 <IanH> PROPOSED: Changes described in http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MS1 are an adequate response to comment MS1 18:20:05 <Achille> +1 18:20:06 <MarkusK_> +1 18:20:08 <ewallace> +1 18:20:15 <bijan> +1 18:20:15 <Rinke> Rinke: +1 18:20:19 <uli> +1 18:20:23 <Zhe> +1 18:20:23 <schneid> +1 18:20:23 <ivan> +1 18:20:30 <bcuencagrau> +1 18:20:33 <IanH> RESOLVED: Changes described in http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MS1 are an adequate response to comment MS1 18:20:37 <pfps> +1 18:20:47 <pfps> q+ 18:20:54 <Rinke> IanH: now MD1 (unicode), comment from Martin Duerr 18:21:03 <IanH> ack pfps 18:21:11 <Rinke> pfps: backtrack a sec, do we now send out a response? 18:21:39 <schneid> I think, people from outside watching this list will wait for a response 18:21:49 <Rinke> IanH: no, not on this one. Actually this was sent to public-owl-comments. It might be good to send an official response to public-owl-comments. 18:22:01 <ivan> s/Duerr/Duerst/ 18:22:26 <Rinke> IanH: peter, can you take the task of sending a response to mike on the public-owl-comments list 18:23:20 <Rinke> (some discussion on where the response will be archived) 18:23:52 <Rinke> IanH: if decide we should try to respond "in thread" then we should modify the page.. 18:24:33 <Rinke> sandro: don't know whether it's worth making changes to the ones we already responded to. 18:25:07 <Rinke> bijan: isn't it enough to have everything in one place (Rinke: rough paraphrase) 18:25:15 <Rinke> IanH: we should decide whether we respond in thread 18:25:23 <Rinke> sandro: people should, but not must, respond in thread 18:25:38 <IanH> q? 18:25:40 <Rinke> IanH: if you can respond in thread, that's a good thing. Ok, we're done with that? 18:26:04 <Rinke> bijan: I think that's just dumb. I like having straightforward directions for sending responses. 18:26:39 <Rinke> sandro: there's only one done that was not done in thread 18:26:54 <Rinke> IanH: if anything else went wrong, then there was something wrong with the list 18:27:10 <Rinke> IanH: then we come back to MD1 (unicode) Martin Duerst 18:27:25 <ivan> +1 to the response 18:27:27 <alanr> +1 to respond 18:27:29 <Rinke> IanH: response drafted by bijan, discussed by email. Anyone would like to object? 18:27:43 <alanr> yes, already agreed to be formal 18:27:45 <Rinke> IanH: do we need to do formal proposals, sandro, ivan? 18:27:51 <IanH> q? 18:27:56 <Rinke> sandro: we don't need to vote on it, if nobody cares 18:28:04 <alanr> remember peter's discussion ? 18:28:08 <Rinke> sandro: if hearing no objections, it's resolved 18:28:13 <Rinke> IanH: you wanted to be formal? 18:28:39 <bijan> q+ 18:28:43 <IanH> q? 18:28:52 <IanH> ack bijan 18:28:56 <Rinke> alanr: if I remember correctly, peter asked that any changes we made to the documents should be formally approved. There should be something in the record. Hearing no objections, but putting a resolved in would be good. 18:29:07 <alanr> I'll go with what pfps thinks on this issue 18:29:23 <pfps> no document change (so far) so no need to vote, I think 18:29:23 <Rinke> bijan: are we voting on the text I sent in? I only located the references, and sent an email: no documents have been changed yet. What are we voting on? 18:29:25 <schneid> q+ 18:29:26 <alanr> ok 18:29:29 <schneid> zakim, unmute me 18:29:29 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted 18:29:29 <IanH> q? 18:29:32 <IanH> ack schneid 18:29:52 <schneid> zakim, mute me 18:29:52 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted 18:29:54 <Rinke> schneid: I suggest we vote or not, but keep it on the list, on the queue, and flush the queue in one go. 18:30:04 <Rinke> bijan: not send the response before the work has been done 18:30:18 <ivan> we need to action the editors 18:30:19 <Rinke> IanH: we are happy with the response, but we need to make the changes in question 18:30:26 <Rinke> bijan: we need to action people appropriately 18:30:30 <ivan> :-) with the response 18:30:31 <bijan> I am! 18:30:33 <Rinke> IanH: are we happy with the response? I was happy 18:30:35 <schneid> +1 18:30:59 <Rinke> RESOLVED: the response to MD1 is appropriate, http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MD1 18:31:14 <bijan> +1 18:31:17 <IanH> RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MD1 is an appropriate response to MD1 18:31:32 <Zhe> noise 18:31:38 <ivan> noise noise noise 18:31:38 <bijan> zakim, who is talking? 18:31:39 <sandro> zakim, who is talking? 18:31:44 <uli> pfew! 18:31:45 <ivan> yes 18:31:51 <Zakim> bijan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: IanH (59%), Sandro (5%) 18:31:53 <schneid> for comparison, I got a whole bunch of answers to my SKOS LC comments all on the same day 18:31:56 <IanH> q? 18:32:03 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: bijan (46%), IanH (47%), Sandro (5%) 18:32:06 <Rinke> IanH: bijan, which documents need changing here? 18:32:32 <Rinke> bijan: syntax, I can do that... actually there's an issue. I know what to do for the unicode reference. 18:32:50 <Rinke> bijan: but for XML and RDF there is still the question on how to draft what we're going to do 18:33:14 <Rinke> bijan: for unicode, syntax, ms, and internationalized string, and ... needs changing 18:33:44 <Rinke> bijan: i believe we're inconsistent with references to unicode. 18:34:01 <Rinke> IanH: if we are happy with that, and it answers his actual comment, then we should do that 18:34:33 <Rinke> bijan: we now have syntax pointing to XML 1.1, which I think is wrong. And then it also refers to the RDF syntax, which it shouldn't. Everything else is actually fine 18:34:38 <Rinke> IanH: only syntax? 18:35:01 <Rinke> bijan: no, all the ones I mentioned before, and rdf:text 18:35:03 <ivan> +1 18:35:06 <ivan> q+ 18:35:14 <Rinke> bijan: just give me a global action to do all the unicode changes 18:35:19 <IanH> q? 18:35:27 <bijan> Unicode The Unicode Consortium, The Unicode Standard, Version 5.1.0, ISBN 0-321-48091-0, as updated from time to time by the publication of new versions. (See http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/versions for the latest version and additional information on versions of the standard and of the Unicode Character Database). 18:35:35 <Rinke> ivan: just a very small issue on the rdf:text, please contact the RIF person to take on this. 18:35:43 <Rinke> bijan: could Jie take this on? 18:36:14 <Rinke> IanH: are you able to take on the action to take on the change to the rdf:text document. 18:36:26 <Rinke> baojie: I can do that 18:36:41 <Rinke> yes 18:37:15 <Rinke> ACTION, baojie to make the necessary changes to the rdf:text document, given the response to MD1 (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MD1) 18:38:20 <Rinke> action: baojie to make the necessary changes to the rdf:text document, given the response to MD1 (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MD1) 18:38:20 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - baojie 18:38:30 <Rinke> action: jie to make the necessary changes to the rdf:text document, given the response to MD1 (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MD1) 18:38:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-278 - Make the necessary changes to the rdf:text document, given the response to MD1 (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MD1) [on Jie Bao - due 2009-02-11]. 18:39:00 <Rinke> subtopic: JH1 18:39:00 <Rinke> IanH: JH1 (keys), where bijan drafted a proposed response 18:39:02 <IanH> q? 18:39:15 <Rinke> IanH: needed an additional example to the document 18:39:25 <IanH> q? 18:39:27 <Christine> +q 18:39:31 <IanH> ack ivan 18:39:31 <ivan> ack ivan 18:39:32 <Rinke> bijan: Jim was happy with the additional line to the document, that I sent to the mailing list 18:39:37 <IanH> ack Christine 18:40:01 <Rinke> ACTION: bijan to make the necessary changes to the documents given the response to MD1 (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MD1) 18:40:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-279 - Make the necessary changes to the documents given the response to MD1 (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MD1) [on Bijan Parsia - due 2009-02-11]. 18:40:21 <Rinke> IanH: no general agreement on whether this is the appropriate response 18:40:37 <IanH> q? 18:40:38 <Rinke> IanH: I don't want that discussion on the teleconf (waste of time). Bring this back next week. 18:40:41 <alanr> recommend discuss on chairs before that 18:40:48 <alanr> q+ 18:40:55 <Rinke> IanH: after we have discussed the response via email 18:41:02 <IanH> q? 18:41:07 <Rinke> bijan: can I add the change to the document? 18:41:09 <IanH> ack alanr 18:41:16 <Rinke> IanH: is this affected by the critique on the response? 18:41:16 <uli> "Please note that we have added more extensive documentation of hasKey feature in the Syntax, a better explanation in the RDF-Based Semantics, and more documentation in the N" 18:41:25 <uli> ...is the suggested rephrasing 18:41:56 <bijan> Current text: """Please note that we will have a more extensive documentation of the rationale behind this design in the NF&R as well as some discussion in the primer. The working group will contact you when they reach last call to see if the overall solution meets your concerns. " 18:41:57 <Christine> +q 18:42:07 <Rinke> alanr: discuss on chairs list 18:42:12 <IanH> q? 18:42:28 <Rinke> bijan: I don't agree. We only need to say that the response is acceptable. The new features and rationale doc is not in LC 18:42:32 <IanH> ack Christine 18:43:00 <bijan> q+ 18:43:01 <alanr> q+ 18:43:05 <Rinke> Christine: there was one point in the draft that I did not agree, is the notion of feature. but we make change in the feature document. The change has already been done in the document. The rationale as well. 18:43:18 <Rinke> IanH: your point is that the text can be changed to state that we /have/ made some changes. 18:43:26 <IanH> ack bijan 18:43:29 <alanr> there is certainly not consensus on that. I disagree concurring with Bijan 18:44:00 <Rinke> bijan: the changes thusfar do not address the comment. They do not even take notice of the comment. I would object to doing that. I already explained this to christine on the list. 18:44:03 <IanH> q? 18:44:06 <IanH> ack alanr 18:44:20 <Rinke> IanH: I understand what the dispute there is then. 18:44:33 <Rinke> alanr: this is why I think we should moderate it. 18:44:34 <Christine> +q 18:44:39 <alanr> +1 18:44:45 <Rinke> IanH: I don't really see the usefulnes of carrying on with this discussion right now 18:44:47 <Christine> +1 18:45:07 <Rinke> IanH: push this on the mailinglist for discussion. 18:45:13 <IanH> q? 18:45:15 <Rinke> IanH: let's do this via email, and move on. 18:45:17 <IanH> ack Christine 18:45:43 <Rinke> bijan: can we just decide? this is the smallest wordsmithing... if this is the level of detail we're taking in then it's going to take forever. 18:45:54 <Rinke> bijan: I don't want to have this discussion. I want it to be over. 18:46:03 <Rinke> bijan: my text doesn't say anything wrong. 18:46:03 <Christine> +q 18:46:04 <alanr> Bijan, I don't think you need to participate in the discussion further. I understand your point. 18:46:07 <alanr> I care 18:46:10 <Rinke> bijan: why not just vote. 18:46:27 <IanH> q? 18:46:34 <Rinke> IanH: I've got sympathy with what you say. this is going to produce more heat than light. 18:46:43 <ivan> ack Christine 18:46:44 <IanH> ack Christine 18:46:45 <Rinke> Christine: I agree to move on. 18:46:52 <alanr> I vote +1 18:46:58 <Rinke> bijan: can I add my sentence to the syntax document? 18:46:58 <alanr> for Bijan to take this action 18:47:06 <Rinke> IanH: this additional explanation-thing that Jim wanted 18:47:12 <alanr> there is no contest on that 18:47:26 <Rinke> IanH: why don't you go ahead on that 18:47:54 <Rinke> IanH: we need to find some better, faster way of dealing with these things. 18:48:03 <Rinke> IanH: that's something for me and alan to discuss offline 18:48:19 <bijan> q+ 18:48:28 <alanr> group: for your information we have already started discussing that (how to make this more efficient) 18:48:36 <Rinke> IanH: next is a list of all comments that I thought were significantly nontrivial, that required us to make some decision on the design. 18:48:36 <IanH> q? 18:48:42 <IanH> ack bijan 18:49:04 <Rinke> bijan: I have drafted an initial response to jeremy, and I would like feedback on whether this direction is ok (had some feedback from ivan) 18:49:07 <alanr> q+ 18:49:16 <Rinke> IanH: sure, it isn't on this list at the moment. 18:49:18 <IanH> q? 18:49:20 <IanH> ack alanr 18:50:03 <Rinke> alanr: my judgment is that I wouldn't abandon the draft, rather than refining it right now. There's discussion on the **** list right now, it's very much appreciated. Let's wait until that progresses 18:50:13 <alanr> *** = chairs list 18:50:17 <ivan> -:) 18:50:18 <Rinke> IanH: coming back to the list 18:50:38 <bijan> q+ 18:50:42 <IanH> q? 18:50:44 <Rinke> subtopic: Naming issues 18:50:44 <Rinke> IanH: grddl, several comments referring to OWL, OWL DL and OWL Full (being more clear in the documents) 18:50:50 <IanH> ack bijan 18:51:25 <Rinke> bijan: I have a question. Looking at comments, not all of them about the design of the language. Just wondering whether the ones that are literally editorial could be moved to a different category (e.g. the use of OWL DL, OWL etc...) 18:51:33 <ivan> it is on the borderline... 18:51:51 <Rinke> IanH: it could be dealt with in an editorial way, perhaps... it could potentially require major restructuring of the documents 18:52:10 <Rinke> bijan: let me put it another way, what triggers another last call at this point. 18:52:11 <IanH> q? 18:52:12 <alanr> Can we postpone this discussion for the moment (of what triggers last call) 18:52:20 <Rinke> bijan: do we have some sens on that? 18:52:25 <Rinke> s/sens/sense 18:52:33 <schneid> "OWL 2" --> "OWL 2 DL" will certainly not justify another LC, but it's important anyway 18:52:34 <alanr> A subject of current discussion on chairs list. We are trying to understand issues. 18:52:38 <IanH> q? 18:52:47 <Rinke> IanH: how we decide to deal with them will determine the answer to bijan's question 18:52:52 <schneid> q+ 18:53:12 <schneid> zakim, unmute me 18:53:12 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted 18:53:13 <IanH> q? 18:53:17 <IanH> ack schneid 18:53:18 <Rinke> IanH: see whether we have a rough agreement on these... see whether we can get a high-level plan on what to do 18:53:19 <MartinD> MartinD has joined #OWL 18:53:38 <Rinke> schneid: we should have a clear story about the OWL names. 18:53:46 <IanH> q? 18:53:51 <Rinke> schneid: what do the names signify, only syntax, only semantics? 18:54:07 <Rinke> schneid: I understood OWL 2 Full only as semantics, but now realize that's a bad idea. 18:54:21 <Rinke> schneid: it's very unclear at the moment. We should have a clear story on this. 18:54:25 <IanH> q? 18:54:33 <Rinke> IanH: I agree, this is also what the commenters ask. 18:54:42 <schneid> zakim, mute me 18:54:42 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted 18:54:58 <Rinke> schneid: we should state "that's the name of the syntax, that's the name of the semantics, that's the name of the whole language" 18:55:00 <IanH> q? 18:55:09 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/mid/82658D86-CD96-4178-B822-E9D4ECFAAB99@comlab.ox.ac.uk -> Ian's mail 18:55:18 <Rinke> IanH: I sent an email summarising. A couple of people have been working on diagrammatic responses 18:55:30 <IanH> q? 18:55:47 <bijan> Ok, "RIF1 (Disjoint numeric datatypes)", I think we should make them disjoint 18:55:48 <uli> +1 18:55:50 <Rinke> IanH: we need to be clearer about all of these things. I don't think we'll succeed in doing this in the next 5 minutes. Unless anyone really objects... 18:56:11 <Rinke> IanH: let's leave FH2, SWD1 for the moment 18:56:18 <bijan> q+ 18:56:23 <Rinke> subtopic: XML and GRDDL 18:56:23 <Rinke> IanH: skipped over XML and GRDDL (TM1, FH3, BP2) 18:56:25 <IanH> q? 18:56:32 <IanH> ack bijan 18:56:39 <Rinke> bijan: I drafted some text in response to Frank's email. 18:57:03 <Rinke> bijan: which provided extensive rationale for the XML syntax. Jonathan Rees liked those, but still wanted GRDDL. 18:57:24 <Rinke> IanH: I agree, motivating the XML stuff isn't too difficult, but the GRDDL point is still there. 18:57:34 <IanH> q? 18:57:44 <alanr> chocolate? 18:57:44 <ivan> two beers? 18:57:47 <Rinke> IanH: I had the idea that you might have come round, and perhaps even be the man to take on GRDDL. 18:57:48 <alanr> hugs 18:57:55 <alanr> genuine gratitude? 18:58:42 <Rinke> bijan: I am negotiating... I'm unsure what my official position would be if the discussion went the other way... 18:58:58 <IanH> q? 18:59:12 <Rinke> bijan: I am negotiating with the pro-GRDDL people on the group. But I'm not there yet. 18:59:13 <schneid> IMHO, asking for dropping XML is very exaggerated, but I think the commenters believe that OWL/XML MUST be supported --> point them to the Conformance document! 18:59:16 <ivan> q+ 18:59:22 <IanH> q? 19:00:17 <bijan> q+ 19:00:26 <Rinke> ivan: I think there is a general feeling that the exact whole of OWL/XML in the whole framework is heavily misunderstood. There have been several comments, some came only a few days ago, is the feeling that RDF/XML is abandoned. This is not true, but it seems the messaging on this has gone wrong. 19:00:33 <IanH> q? 19:00:39 <IanH> ack ivan 19:00:39 <Rinke> ivan: one remark about all different syntaxes in the examples. 19:00:41 <IanH> q? 19:00:42 <bmotik> +q 19:00:46 <Rinke> ivan: it's part of the same set of comments. 19:01:10 <Rinke> IanH: more related to what we discussed previously, but next on the list, misunderstanding on the whole messaging thing. 19:01:37 <Rinke> ivan: the whole OWL/XML made people feel that this was the exchange syntax. I had the discussion with some of my colleagues this week. 19:01:41 <IanH> q? 19:01:45 <IanH> ack bijan 19:01:50 <Rinke> IanH: not directly related to the whole OWL/XML GRDDL thing. 19:02:01 <Rinke> bijan: I agree, I think people have lashed on the Functional Syntax and XML 19:02:05 <IanH> q? 19:02:06 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me 19:02:06 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted 19:02:12 <alanr> +1 19:02:18 <alanr> to what Bijan says 19:02:31 <IanH> q? 19:02:35 <Rinke> bijan: we haven't changed how OWL was specified. Putting the two semantics in two documents confused people who thought there was only one semantics. 19:02:37 <schneid> actually, in OWL 1 there have been even three different semantics... 19:02:42 <Rinke> bijan: that does need to be dealt with. 19:02:55 <Rinke> IanH: there's a whole presentation issue that needs to be dealt with. 19:03:09 <bmotik> -q 19:03:25 <Rinke> IanH: there isn't one specific comment that says this. but we need a response to such a comment. 19:03:29 <IanH> q? 19:03:38 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me 19:03:38 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted 19:04:06 <bmotik> +q 19:04:10 <Rinke> subtopic: RIF1 19:04:10 <Rinke> IanH: ok, what about the RIF1 related to numeric datatypes 19:04:11 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me 19:04:11 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted 19:04:12 <IanH> q? 19:04:17 <IanH> ack bmotik 19:04:32 <alanr> missed that 19:04:35 <Rinke> bmotik: I have a proposal, we make the datatypes exactly as they are in XML 19:04:38 <sandro> +1 stoning 19:04:40 <IanH> q? 19:04:41 <bijan> q+ 19:04:45 <alanr> -1 19:04:53 <Rinke> bmotik: throw a stone at me at the F2F5 for starting this in the first place 19:04:59 <ivan> +1 stoning (in virtual space, will not be at the f2f...) 19:05:13 <IanH> NO -- I want to see blood 19:05:16 <alanr> I'm not sorry yet 19:05:18 <Rinke> bmotik: there is also a practical reason, non-disjointness really difficult to implement. 19:05:19 <sandro> rofl 19:05:26 <Rinke> bmotik: I'm sorry 19:05:40 <ewallace> Why are disjoint types now acceptable? 19:05:51 <IanH> q? 19:05:53 <msmith> q+ 19:05:55 <IanH> ack bijan 19:05:56 <alanr> q+ 19:05:57 <Rinke> IanH: Boris proposes that we change our decision on disjointness because of conformance with XML, and implementation issues 19:06:05 <msmith> q- 19:06:15 <IanH> q? 19:06:15 <Rinke> bijan: I am happy to have disjointness as well (we should throw stones at Rob as well) 19:06:23 <Rinke> msmith: would this require another last call? 19:06:38 <Rinke> IanH: I'm just not wanting to talk about whether or not that requires another last call 19:06:53 <Rinke> IanH: deal with each comment, then look at the totality of changes. 19:07:01 <Rinke> IanH: welcome to have comments from sandro, ivan 19:07:06 <IanH> q? 19:07:24 <ivan> q+ 19:07:30 <Rinke> sandro: I agree. And: not another LC, it's a corner issue that people just haven't thought about enough. 19:07:31 <msmith> q+ to request more detail from Boris 19:07:39 <IanH> ack alanr 19:07:57 <bijan> q+ 19:08:10 <Rinke> alanr: Im not ready to cave on this yet. We do have a meeting with RIF on this, next week. I want to discuss this with Jonathan (my colleague). 19:08:14 <alanr> understood. just chiming in. 19:08:23 <IanH> q? 19:08:25 <Rinke> IanH: we don't have a unanimous plan on this 19:08:27 <bijan> q- 19:08:28 <alanr> yes. more than that even :) 19:08:37 <Rinke> IanH: we;ll ask you again after the RIF meeting 19:08:37 <IanH> ack ivan 19:08:40 <IanH> q? 19:08:58 <bijan> Given all the feedback, I think Manchester (pace Uli) might formally object to non-disjoint double 19:09:08 <bijan> So it's not just to satisfy rif 19:09:14 <IanH> q? 19:09:17 <Rinke> ivan: wrt. the LC or non-LC issue. We have a number of documents that are not LC. A second LC is not the end of the world. I agree we should not spend time on this issue. It is not a huge issue. 19:09:18 <Zakim> +Tony 19:09:25 <IanH> q? 19:09:28 <IanH> ack msmith 19:09:28 <Zakim> msmith, you wanted to request more detail from Boris 19:09:35 <bmotik> +q 19:09:35 <ewallace> +1 to Mike suggestions 19:09:37 <Rinke> msmith: If boris could write an email that more explicitly specifies the change he's proposing to make 19:09:41 <IanH> q? 19:09:41 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me 19:09:41 <alanr> uli is ready to drop rational too? 19:09:42 <Zakim> bmotik was not muted, bmotik 19:09:42 <Rinke> msmith: that would be helpful 19:09:46 <Rinke> sandro: test cases test cases 19:09:49 <IanH> ack bmotik 19:09:51 <IanH> q? 19:09:53 <alanr> q+ 19:09:57 <schneid> q+ 19:10:01 <Rinke> bmotik: this is already specified in the 1.1 XML schema. It's very precise on this. 19:10:14 <msmith> q+ 19:10:18 <bijan> +1 to what boris just said 19:10:24 <IanH> q? 19:10:27 <Rinke> bmotik: float disjoint from double would be disjoint from decimal, but integer and all that crap wouldn't be 19:10:28 <uli> alanr, I am not sure... 19:10:38 <IanH> q? 19:10:42 <IanH> ack alanr 19:10:42 <msmith> but where does that leave owl:realPlus? 19:10:43 <ivan> ack alanr 19:10:52 <msmith> q- 19:11:03 <Rinke> alanr: how would that impact ... 19:11:05 <IanH> q? 19:11:05 <alanr> thanks 19:11:09 <schneid> zakim, unmute me 19:11:09 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted 19:11:13 <IanH> ack schneid 19:11:17 <Rinke> IanH: that's a different issue, because those are new datatypes 19:11:52 <Rinke> schneid: there was months of discussion about this. Would like the ramifications of this change. There were reasons for not having this disjointness. 19:11:55 <alanr> the ramifications are bad :) 19:11:58 <IanH> q? 19:11:59 <Rinke> schneid: would it be very bad? 19:12:11 <Rinke> schneid: would like to see the non-obvious ramifications 19:12:24 <bijan> I note again, Pellet (and Jena) have supported disjointness here 19:12:41 <IanH> q? 19:12:44 <Rinke> IanH: would be the kind of ones that when you have integers and doubles in an inference, you would have different answers for your inferences. 19:12:51 <alanr> instance classification issues as well 19:12:56 <uli> Michael, I see (1) less tricky to implement (2) possibly strange inferences (3) comformance to Schema 19:12:58 <IanH> q? 19:13:07 <Rinke> IanH: all those guys are overlapping and derived from decimal 19:13:30 <Rinke> schneid: there was this idea to have overlapping value spaces, and this must have a good reason. 19:13:48 <bmotik> q+ 19:13:55 <Rinke> IanH: the good reason was that logicallly speaking the double 1 should be interpreted in the same way as the integer 1 19:14:00 <alanr> or that the different 0's are different 19:14:04 <IanH> q? 19:14:17 <IanH> ack bmotik 19:14:34 <Rinke> bmotik: because of that, there is no need for owl:realPlus .. just an umbrella for the doubles etc. 19:14:39 <schneid> zakim, mute me 19:14:39 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted 19:15:05 <IanH> q? 19:15:06 <Rinke> IanH: we can see how the meeting with RIF goes. It's possible to resolve this by doing what they asked us to do? 19:15:10 <bmotik> q+ 19:15:18 <schneid> thanks, uli 19:15:24 <IanH> q? 19:15:28 <IanH> ack bmotik 19:15:29 <Rinke> subtopic: RIF2 19:15:29 <Rinke> IanH: what to do with RIF2 (same set of supported datatypes). They don't support some of the derived string-types. 19:15:37 <bijan> q+ 19:15:39 <Rinke> bmotik: are they complaining about OWL 2 RL, or in general? 19:15:52 <Zakim> -Achille 19:15:55 <IanH> q? 19:16:01 <IanH> ack bijan 19:16:09 <Rinke> IanH: they wouldn't object to profiles to support only a subset of datatypes. I think they'd like both languages as a whole to support the same set of datatypes. 19:16:14 <alanr> q+ 19:16:18 <bmotik> q+ 19:16:43 <IanH> q? 19:17:12 <Rinke> bijan: we should resolve this to say that we're happy if they support all datatypes we have. I'm not convinced with the exhange argument... 19:17:47 <Rinke> bijan: least-common denominator approach does not really match with the development of a language that allows people to express what they need to express. 19:17:51 <pfps> +1 to 1/3-full cups (+2 to 2/3-full cups) 19:18:05 <bijan> Sure 19:18:07 <ivan> q+ 19:18:11 <Rinke> IanH: I understood the argument and sympathise, will put your argument forward on the OWL/RIF meeting 19:18:13 <alanr> is the cup 1/3 full or 2/3 empty? 19:18:15 <IanH> q? 19:18:19 <sandro> do you think RIF should have built-ins for rational math? 19:18:24 <bijan> I just think we need a better prima facie argument to budge 19:18:26 <IanH> q? 19:18:28 <IanH> ack alanr 19:18:34 <bijan> sandro, I don't care. That's up to them 19:19:00 <Rinke> alanr: there are two cases we may consider. Wrt the string derived types, we don't have a lot of demand for them, we could drop some of them: some negotiating room for horse trading. 19:19:11 <bijan> Why give up what can be defined? What's the harm of having names for types that are expressively available? 19:19:11 <sandro> q? 19:19:19 <Rinke> IanH: that supports the notion that we need the same set 19:19:37 <IanH> ack bmotik 19:19:44 <Rinke> alanr: I understand bijan's point.. i have sympathy for harmonisation, see how far we can go. 19:20:04 <Rinke> bmotik: but we would need to extend our set of datatypes as well (e.g. from XQuery, and one that has to do with datetime). 19:20:10 <Rinke> bmotik: we would both need to change 19:20:17 <Rinke> IanH: would they be difficult to support 19:20:21 <Rinke> bmotik: I don't think so. 19:20:29 <Rinke> IanH: what about the issue with time zones 19:20:55 <bijan> q+ 19:20:56 <Rinke> bmotik: there is a diversion with datetime as well. We are interpreting timezones in OWL in a different way as well 19:21:08 <ewallace> I think there is some confusion in RIF wg about dateTime 19:21:09 <IanH> ack ivan 19:21:24 <Rinke> IanH: we don't support XML datetime, but have a subtype with an explicit timezone. 19:22:06 <IanH> q? 19:22:06 <Rinke> ivan: we should stop the discussion now, and see where we can go from the RIF/OWL meeting. What I don't see is the issue with the rdf:text on the LC page. I haven't seen any move on this over the past few weeks. 19:22:10 <Rinke> IanH: what do you suggest? 19:22:17 <Rinke> ivan: we should have it on the LC comments page. 19:22:24 <Rinke> sandro: but rdf:text is not in last call. 19:22:35 <Rinke> ivan: oh, ok. but it may come up on the meeting with RIF 19:22:42 <IanH> q? 19:22:45 <Rinke> IanH: it seems to be a completely separate issue 19:22:55 <IanH> ack bijan 19:23:05 <Rinke> bijan: What does RIF require conformant systems to support in terms of the datatypes 19:23:12 <Rinke> bmotik: do you want a list? I can recite it... 19:23:27 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-bld/#Conformance_Clauses 19:23:27 <Rinke> bijan: I'm not clear that you have to support them all (i'm looking at conformance clauses) 19:23:35 <Rinke> IanH: take this to email? 19:23:38 <IanH> q? 19:23:43 <Rinke> bijan: i concede 19:23:54 <Rinke> IanH: discuss this by email before the meeting with RIF 19:24:18 <Rinke> subtopic: FH4 19:24:18 <Rinke> IanH: close to running out of time. Try to tackle one more of these: anonymous individuals (FH4) 19:24:25 <bijan> Clarify rationale and reject the change 19:24:31 <IanH> q? 19:24:32 <bmotik> +q 19:24:36 <pfps> +1 to bijan 19:24:44 <Rinke> IanH: Frank didn't like the new way in which we deal with anonymous individuals? 19:24:51 <msmith> +1 to bmotik, I didn't understand the comment 19:24:53 <uli> I don't 19:24:56 <Rinke> IanH: yes, bijan is right.... 19:25:00 <IanH> q? 19:25:06 <Rinke> bmotik: did anyone understand the comment? 19:25:06 <bmotik> -q 19:25:09 <alanr> q+ 19:25:10 <schneid> Frank talks about "deviation" of OWL 1, I believe 19:25:13 <IanH> q? 19:25:20 <Rinke> IanH: that's my feeling as well, we should clarify 19:25:35 <bmotik> +q 19:25:45 <IanH> q? 19:25:49 <IanH> ack alanr 19:26:00 <IanH> ack bmotik 19:26:01 <Rinke> alanr: I was wondering whether the anon individuals in OWL 1 had different syntax where the name wasn't mentioned. perhaps boris could think of a way to deal with this with minimal impact (Syntactic change) 19:26:20 <bijan> +1 to Boris 19:26:26 <Rinke> bmotik: there is no way to do this. I thought long and hard. This didn't play along well with the axiom based view on OWL. 19:26:26 <schneid> q+ 19:26:32 <bijan> q+ 19:26:36 <pfps> +1 to Boris, as well, the RDF form hasn't changed 19:26:36 <IanH> q? 19:26:44 <Rinke> IanH: we do have backwards compatibility don't we? 19:26:53 <ivan> q+ 19:26:56 <schneid> zakim, unmute me 19:26:56 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted 19:27:00 <bijan> q- 19:27:01 <IanH> ack schneid 19:27:10 <Rinke> bmotik: we do. It is only the problem with the Abstract syntax vs. the functional syntax. 19:27:41 <IanH> q? 19:27:42 <Rinke> schneid: I think that if he is coming more from the RDF/web view... working with anonymous individuals is very common (e.g. in foaf). 19:27:42 <alanr> on the motivation issue we can certainly response coherently 19:27:47 <IanH> ack ivan 19:27:48 <alanr> s/response/respond/ 19:27:58 <bijan> q+ 19:28:00 <Rinke> ivan: I am lost actually, can somebody explain in one minute what the problem is? 19:28:01 <IanH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-comments/2009Jan/0037.html 19:28:09 <Rinke> IanH: it's not that easy, his email is very short. 19:28:14 <IanH> q? 19:28:21 <IanH> ack bijan 19:28:26 <Rinke> ivan: I don't understand what problem he's responding to 19:28:32 <bmotik> In OWL 1 you had Individual( value(p "bla") ) 19:28:43 <schneid> ClassAssertion(foaf:Agent _:x) 19:28:45 <schneid> PropertyAssertion(foaf:knows _:x Alice) 19:28:50 <bmotik> In OWL 2 you have PropertyAssertion( p _:1 "bla" ) 19:29:03 <bmotik> It is the same from the expressivity point of view, but the syntax is different. 19:29:09 <alanr> there is also more expressivity in owl 2, no? 19:29:11 <Rinke> bijan: in OWL 1 AS anon individuals were represented using blank nodes (no node id's). We have to use node id's because of the syntax. Frank is confused by this. 19:29:15 <alanr> that's what I thought, ian 19:29:20 <schneid> We can now share 19:29:33 <schneid> the same anon in different axioms 19:29:34 <IanH> q? 19:29:35 <Rinke> IanH: isn't it so that we could deal with more RDF with this change 19:29:45 <Rinke> ivan: seems to be syntactic sugar only in the functional syntax. 19:29:57 <Rinke> bijan: seems to be about presentation, not a technical comment. 19:29:58 <alanr> q+ 19:30:00 <bijan> I can write a draft 19:30:03 <IanH> q? 19:30:06 <Rinke> IanH: probably isn't a big deal 19:30:06 <IanH> ack alanr 19:30:10 <msmith> @schneid, we can only share in careful ways (see the global restrictions) 19:30:14 <Rinke> alanr: I didn't understand that last comment 19:30:27 <Rinke> bijan: it's not a substantive change, change in the presentation, not technical. 19:30:27 <IanH> q? 19:30:30 <schneid> ah, there was this fine print again ;-) 19:30:53 <Rinke> bijan: I explain why we make the change, it's an editorial manner. 19:31:32 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace 19:31:39 <Rinke> IanH: we have to carry on with the rest of this list next week. Alan and I will discuss on how to deal with carrying forward with responding to the comments 19:31:41 <alanr> And pfps be earnest? 19:31:50 <Rinke> topic: anny additional business? 19:31:57 <Rinke> IanH: no? ok, we're done 19:31:57 <bijan> yes please! 19:32:03 <msmith> thanks all. bye 19:32:04 <Zakim> -msmith 19:32:08 <Zakim> -bcuencagrau 19:32:11 <Zakim> -MarkusK_ 19:32:14 <uli> bye 19:32:17 <Zhe> bye 19:32:17 <alanr> thanks everyone! Particularly Ian. No thanks to my hosts. 19:32:18 <Rinke> action: bijan to draft a response to FH1 (anonymous individuals) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-comments/2009Jan/0037.html 19:32:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-280 - Draft a response to FH1 (anonymous individuals) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-comments/2009Jan/0037.html [on Bijan Parsia - due 2009-02-11]. 19:32:18 <uli> uli has left #owl 19:32:19 <Zakim> -bmotik 19:32:22 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aaee 19:32:23 <Zakim> -Ivan 19:32:24 <Zakim> -uli 19:32:25 <Zakim> -alanr 19:32:26 <Zakim> -christine 19:32:27 <Zakim> -bijan 19:32:27 <Zakim> -baojie 19:32:28 <Zakim> -schneid 19:32:29 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider 19:32:31 <Zakim> -Sandro 19:32:33 <Zakim> -Tony 19:32:35 <Zakim> -IanH 19:32:41 <Zakim> -Rinke 19:32:42 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended 19:32:43 <Zakim> Attendees were bijan, Rinke, bmotik, Evan_Wallace, Sandro, Achille, IanH, MarkusK_, schneid, +0186528aabb, uli, bcuencagrau, Ivan, alanr, +1.202.408.aadd, msmith, +1.603.897.aaee, 19:32:46 <Zakim> ... christine, +1.518.276.aaff, baojie, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Tony 19:33:17 <Rinke> RRSAgent, pointer? 19:33:17 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/02/04-owl-irc#T19-33-17 19:55:22 <MartinD> MartinD has left #OWL 21:34:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #owl 21:37:20 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl