OWL Working Group

Minutes of 20 May 2009

Present
Peter Patel-Schneider, Sandro Hawke, Ian Horrocks, Elisa Kendall, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Alan Ruttenberg, Mike Smith, Boris Motik, Zhe Wu, Jie Bao, Markus Krötzsch, Evan Wallace, Uli Sattler, Bijan Parsia, Michael Schneider, Achille Fokoue, Antoine Zimmermann, Christine Golbreich
Scribe
Elisa Kendall
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Accept the previous minutes (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2009-05-13) link
  2. The RDF vocabulary for annotations should be changed from owl:subject, owl:predicate and owl:object to, respectively, owl:annotatedSource, owl:annotatedProperty and owl:annotatedTarget. link
  3. Structural Specification and Functional-Style Syntax, Mapping to RDF Graphs, Direct Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Conformance, Profiles and XML Serialization are ready for publication as Candidate Recommendations, pending a decision on the precise terms of the exit criteria link
  4. Document Overview, Primer, New Features and Rationale are ready for publication as Last Call Working Drafts link
  5. Manchester Syntax is ready for publication as a Working Group note link
  6. rdf:text should be marked as being "at risk" link
Topics
<sandro> Present: pfps, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau, ruttenberg, msmith, bmotik, Zhe, baojie, MarkusK, ekw, uli, bijan, mschneid, Achille, zimmer, christine
16:55:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-owl-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-owl-irc

16:55:52 <IanH> zakim, this will be owl

Ian Horrocks: zakim, this will be owl

16:55:52 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

16:56:02 <alanr> alanr has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2009.05.20/Agenda

Alan Ruttenberg: alanr has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2009.05.20/Agenda

16:56:51 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started

16:56:58 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider

16:58:15 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

16:58:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider

16:58:19 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider

16:58:47 <Zakim> +IanH

Zakim IRC Bot: +IanH

16:59:06 <IanH> zakim, who is here?

Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here?

16:59:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH

16:59:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, elisa, ekw, zimmer, RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, IanH, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, elisa, ekw, zimmer, RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, IanH, sandro, trackbot

16:59:10 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall

16:59:30 <IanH> ScribeNick: elisa

(Scribe set to Elisa Kendall)

16:59:49 <IanH> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Scribe_Conventions

Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Scribe_Conventions

17:00:20 <Zakim> +bcuencagrau

Zakim IRC Bot: +bcuencagrau

17:00:25 <IanH> zakim, who is here?

Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here?

17:00:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau

17:00:26 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, mute me

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Zakim, mute me

17:00:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see msmith, bcuencagrau, pfps, elisa, ekw, zimmer, RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, IanH, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see msmith, bcuencagrau, pfps, elisa, ekw, zimmer, RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, IanH, sandro, trackbot

17:00:30 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bcuencagrau should now be muted

17:01:05 <Zakim> +Alan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alan

17:01:08 <IanH> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

17:01:13 <alanr> zakim, mute me

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, mute me

17:01:13 <Zakim> sorry, alanr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, alanr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

17:01:21 <Zakim> +msmith

Zakim IRC Bot: +msmith

17:01:26 <alanr> zakim, Alan is alanr

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, Alan is alanr

17:01:26 <Zakim> +alanr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +alanr; got it

17:01:32 <alanr> zakim, mute me

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, mute me

17:01:32 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr should now be muted

17:01:36 <IanH> zakim, who is here?

Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here?

17:01:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau (muted), alanr (muted), msmith

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau (muted), alanr (muted), msmith

17:01:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see bmotik, MarkusK_, msmith, bcuencagrau, pfps, elisa, ekw, zimmer, RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, IanH, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bmotik, MarkusK_, msmith, bcuencagrau, pfps, elisa, ekw, zimmer, RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, IanH, sandro, trackbot

17:02:01 <Zakim> +??P1

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1

17:02:02 <elisa> Ian: are there any agenda amendments?

Ian Horrocks: are there any agenda amendments?

17:02:05 <bmotik> Zakim, ??P1 is me

Boris Motik: Zakim, ??P1 is me

17:02:05 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bmotik; got it

17:02:09 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me

Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me

17:02:09 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted

17:02:15 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:02:30 <Zakim> +Zhe

Zakim IRC Bot: +Zhe

17:02:39 <elisa> Ian: has anyone reviewed the previous minutes -- http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2009-05-13

Ian Horrocks: has anyone reviewed the previous minutes -- http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2009-05-13

17:02:39 <Zakim> +baojie

Zakim IRC Bot: +baojie

17:02:43 <Zhe> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

17:02:43 <Zakim> Zhe should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Zhe should now be muted

17:02:44 <pfps> acceptable - could be fixed a bit, but no real reason to make them *perfect*

Peter Patel-Schneider: acceptable - could be fixed a bit, but no real reason to make them *perfect*

17:03:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

17:03:06 <baojie> zakim, mut me

Jie Bao: zakim, mut me

17:03:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mut me', baojie

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'mut me', baojie

17:03:10 <baojie> zakim, mute me

Jie Bao: zakim, mute me

17:03:10 <Zakim> baojie should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: baojie should now be muted

17:03:15 <elisa> RESOLVED: Accept the previous minutes (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2009-05-13)

RESOLVED: Accept the previous minutes (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2009-05-13)

17:03:29 <elisa> Subtopic: Pending Action Items Status

1.1. Pending Action Items Status

17:03:34 <Zakim> + +1.301.351.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.301.351.aaaa

17:03:38 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

17:03:45 <uli> zakim, ??P25 us me

Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P25 us me

17:03:46 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P25 us me', uli

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '??P25 us me', uli

17:03:50 <uli> zakim, ??P25 is me

Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P25 is me

17:03:50 <Zakim> +uli; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it

17:04:03 <elisa> Action 336 complete

ACTION-336 complete

17:04:03 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 336

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - 336

17:04:37 <elisa> Topic: Documents and Reviewing

2. Documents and Reviewing

17:04:48 <Zakim> +??P0

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0

17:04:49 <uli> zakim, mute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me

17:04:50 <Zakim> uli should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted

17:04:53 <bijan> zakim, ??p0 is me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??p0 is me

17:04:53 <Zakim> +bijan; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bijan; got it

17:05:05 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:05:14 <ekw> zakim, 1.301.351.aaaa is me

Evan Wallace: zakim, 1.301.351.aaaa is me

17:05:14 <Zakim> sorry, ekw, I do not recognize a party named '1.301.351.aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ekw, I do not recognize a party named '1.301.351.aaaa'

17:05:20 <elisa> Ian: may want to reorder the discussion -- want to mark rdf:text as an at risk feature

Ian Horrocks: may want to reorder the discussion -- want to mark rdf:text as an at risk feature

17:05:30 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

17:05:30 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:05:35 <schneid> zakim, ??P3 is me

Michael Schneider: zakim, ??P3 is me

17:05:35 <Zakim> +schneid; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +schneid; got it

17:05:37 <elisa> ... this potentially gives us the flexibility to do something with rdf:text in the future.

... this potentially gives us the flexibility to do something with rdf:text in the future.

17:05:39 <schneid> zakim, mute me

Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me

17:05:39 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should now be muted

17:05:40 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is on the phone?

17:05:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau (muted), alanr (muted), msmith, bmotik (muted), Zhe (muted), baojie (muted), MarkusK_,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau (muted), alanr (muted), msmith, bmotik (muted), Zhe (muted), baojie (muted), MarkusK_,

17:05:43 <Zakim> ... +1.301.351.aaaa, uli (muted), bijan, schneid (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.301.351.aaaa, uli (muted), bijan, schneid (muted)

17:05:59 <pfps> zakim, aaaa is ekw

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, aaaa is ekw

17:05:59 <Zakim> +ekw; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ekw; got it

17:06:07 <ekw> zakim, +1.301.351.aaaa is me

Evan Wallace: zakim, +1.301.351.aaaa is me

17:06:07 <Zakim> sorry, ekw, I do not recognize a party named '+1.301.351.aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ekw, I do not recognize a party named '+1.301.351.aaaa'

17:06:08 <uli> fine with me

Uli Sattler: fine with me

17:06:09 <elisa> Ian:  suggest we have the discussion on rdf:text after some of the other more pressing discussions

Ian Horrocks: suggest we have the discussion on rdf:text after some of the other more pressing discussions

17:06:28 <elisa> Ian:  OWL LC comments and responses --

Ian Horrocks: OWL LC comments and responses --

17:06:30 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:06:43 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:06:45 <elisa> ... people have been sending comments and responding but there are still some outstanding

... people have been sending comments and responding but there are still some outstanding

17:07:09 <schneid> I also sent two

Michael Schneider: I also sent two

17:07:14 <elisa> Ian: Peter has sent some, Bijan too

Ian Horrocks: Peter has sent some, Bijan too

17:07:27 <elisa> Ian:  next item:  status of the documents

Ian Horrocks: next item: status of the documents

17:07:54 <elisa> Ian: In response to a comment from Jeremy, we agreed to change the vocabulary used for annotations

Ian Horrocks: In response to a comment from Jeremy, we agreed to change the vocabulary used for annotations

17:08:02 <elisa> Ian: need to make a formal resolution to do so

Ian Horrocks: need to make a formal resolution to do so

17:08:06 <IanH> PROPOSED: The RDF vocabulary for annotations should be changed from owl:subject, owl:predicate and owl:object to, respectively, owl:annotatedSource, owl:annotatedProperty and owl:annotatedTarget.

PROPOSED: The RDF vocabulary for annotations should be changed from owl:subject, owl:predicate and owl:object to, respectively, owl:annotatedSource, owl:annotatedProperty and owl:annotatedTarget.

17:08:20 <elisa> Ian: any discussion?

Ian Horrocks: any discussion?

17:08:36 <bijan> +1

Bijan Parsia: +1

17:08:39 <MarkusK_> +1

Markus Krötzsch: +1

17:08:40 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1

17:08:42 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1

17:08:43 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1

17:08:44 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1

17:08:44 <pfps> +1 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ALU

17:08:45 <ekw> +1

Evan Wallace: +1

17:08:45 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

17:08:46 <elisa> +1

+1

17:08:47 <baojie> +1

Jie Bao: +1

17:08:47 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

17:08:48 <schneid> +1

Michael Schneider: +1

17:08:49 <msmith> +1

Mike Smith: +1

17:09:19 <IanH> RESOLVED: The RDF vocabulary for annotations should be changed from owl:subject, owl:predicate and owl:object to, respectively, owl:annotatedSource, owl:annotatedProperty and owl:annotatedTarget.

RESOLVED: The RDF vocabulary for annotations should be changed from owl:subject, owl:predicate and owl:object to, respectively, owl:annotatedSource, owl:annotatedProperty and owl:annotatedTarget.

17:09:38 <Zakim> +[IBM]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM]

17:09:49 <Achille> zakim, ibm is me

Achille Fokoue: zakim, ibm is me

17:09:49 <Zakim> +Achille; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Achille; got it

17:10:08 <IanH> Q?

Ian Horrocks: Q?

17:10:20 <elisa> Ian: with respect to the primer, whether or not we should refer to OWL 1 docs, and in general whether or not we should do so

Ian Horrocks: with respect to the primer, whether or not we should refer to OWL 1 docs, and in general whether or not we should do so

17:10:22 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

17:10:52 <ekw> NF&R have to refer to

Evan Wallace: NF&R have to refer to

17:11:04 <elisa> PFPS:  In general, it's not such a great idea.  There are places where one wants to do this in the old technical documents, it's perfectly acceptable

Peter Patel-Schneider: In general, it's not such a great idea. There are places where one wants to do this in the old technical documents, it's perfectly acceptable

17:11:09 <IanH> zakim, who is here?

Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here?

17:11:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau (muted), alanr (muted), msmith, bmotik (muted), Zhe (muted), baojie (muted), MarkusK_, ekw, uli

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau (muted), alanr (muted), msmith, bmotik (muted), Zhe (muted), baojie (muted), MarkusK_, ekw, uli

17:11:12 <Zakim> ... (muted), bijan, schneid (muted), Achille

Zakim IRC Bot: ... (muted), bijan, schneid (muted), Achille

17:11:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see Achille, schneid, bijan, Zhe, uli, baojie, bmotik, MarkusK_, msmith, bcuencagrau, pfps, elisa, ekw, zimmer, RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, IanH, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Achille, schneid, bijan, Zhe, uli, baojie, bmotik, MarkusK_, msmith, bcuencagrau, pfps, elisa, ekw, zimmer, RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, IanH, sandro, trackbot

17:11:15 <ekw> OWL 1

Evan Wallace: OWL 1

17:11:41 <elisa> ... if we're thinking about it with respect to users, and contrasting OWL 2 with OWL 1, in general it's not a good idea

... if we're thinking about it with respect to users, and contrasting OWL 2 with OWL 1, in general it's not a good idea

17:11:43 <bijan> Be forward looking!

Bijan Parsia: Be forward looking!

17:11:44 <uli> +1 to pfps: we have 1 document 'backwards', NF&R, and all others in general 'forwards'

Uli Sattler: +1 to pfps: we have 1 document 'backwards', NF&R, and all others in general 'forwards'

17:11:50 <MarkusK_> +1 to pfps: referring back is not a good idea in general

Markus Krötzsch: +1 to pfps: referring back is not a good idea in general

17:11:51 <schneid> RDF-Based Semantics has a non-normative section on technical differences with old OWL 1 Full

Michael Schneider: RDF-Based Semantics has a non-normative section on technical differences with old OWL 1 Full

17:12:09 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:12:11 <elisa> Ian: what I wrote in the agenda is too general -- basically in the primer there was a bit of an impasse with one of the reviewers (Deb)

Ian Horrocks: what I wrote in the agenda is too general -- basically in the primer there was a bit of an impasse with one of the reviewers (Deb)

17:12:14 <MarkusK_> q+

Markus Krötzsch: q+

17:12:15 <elisa> and others

and others

17:12:19 <IanH> ack pfps

Ian Horrocks: ack pfps

17:12:27 <IanH> ack MarkusK_

Ian Horrocks: ack MarkusK_

17:12:39 <MarkusK_> oops, technical issue

Markus Krötzsch: oops, technical issue

17:12:42 <MarkusK_> q-

Markus Krötzsch: q-

17:12:48 <MarkusK_> no idea what happened

Markus Krötzsch: no idea what happened

17:12:56 <bijan> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+

17:12:58 <MarkusK_> I can type: we do not have a strong oppinion

Markus Krötzsch: I can type: we do not have a strong oppinion

17:12:59 <pfps> q+ me?

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+ me?

17:13:04 <IanH> ack bijan

Ian Horrocks: ack bijan

17:13:05 <pfps> q- me?

Peter Patel-Schneider: q- me?

17:13:11 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:13:11 <MarkusK_> ... but I would prefer to not refer to the old documents

Markus Krötzsch: ... but I would prefer to not refer to the old documents

17:13:48 <elisa> Bijan:  this is just an old difference of opinion - how much should our documents target users who were transitioning to OWL 2, who made heavy use of the documents

Bijan Parsia: this is just an old difference of opinion - how much should our documents target users who were transitioning to OWL 2, who made heavy use of the documents

17:13:49 <MarkusK_> ... in particular since the "backward looking" aspect was already an important reason for dropping an earlier appendix from the Primer.

Markus Krötzsch: ... in particular since the "backward looking" aspect was already an important reason for dropping an earlier appendix from the Primer.

17:14:07 <MarkusK_> q+

Markus Krötzsch: q+

17:14:11 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:14:45 <IanH> ack MarkusK_

Ian Horrocks: ack MarkusK_

17:14:51 <elisa> ... Deb wanted to include a number of pointers back to the older docs, and we should have a forward eye rather than backwards eye to these documents

... Deb wanted to include a number of pointers back to the older docs, and we should have a forward eye rather than backwards eye to these documents

17:15:29 <elisa> Markus: would also prefer not to have references to the older documents, aside from in NF&R - we already dropped lots of text because of similar issues

Markus Krötzsch: would also prefer not to have references to the older documents, aside from in NF&R - we already dropped lots of text because of similar issues

17:15:48 <alanr> could an example be presented?

Alan Ruttenberg: could an example be presented?

17:15:49 <elisa> Ian: any other support for backwards-looking links

Ian Horrocks: any other support for backwards-looking links

17:16:08 <alanr> how does she want to cite ?

Alan Ruttenberg: how does she want to cite ?

17:16:15 <pfps> The proposed change to Primer is the canonical example, I guess.

Peter Patel-Schneider: The proposed change to Primer is the canonical example, I guess.

17:16:19 <alanr> zakim, unmute me

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, unmute me

17:16:19 <Zakim> alanr should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr should no longer be muted

17:16:26 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:16:39 <elisa> Alan: I can imagine a number of cases, some more objectionable than others ...

Alan Ruttenberg: I can imagine a number of cases, some more objectionable than others ...

17:16:47 <elisa> Ian: wasn't there a specific place ...

Ian Horrocks: wasn't there a specific place ...

17:17:04 <bijan> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+

17:17:06 <Zakim> + +03539149aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +03539149aabb

17:17:21 <zimmer> Zakim, +03539149aabb is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, +03539149aabb is me

17:17:21 <Zakim> +zimmer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +zimmer; got it

17:17:25 <pfps>   5. On “For readers already familiar with OWL 1, [OWL 2 New Features

Peter Patel-Schneider: 5. On “For readers already familiar with OWL 1, [OWL 2 New Features

17:17:27 <pfps>      and Rationale

Peter Patel-Schneider: and Rationale

17:17:28 <pfps>      <http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Primer#ref-owl-2-new-features>]

Peter Patel-Schneider: <http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Primer#ref-owl-2-new-features>]

17:17:29 <elisa> Markus: will paste it in to the IRC -- this was a general reference to the old primer

Markus Krötzsch: will paste it in to the IRC -- this was a general reference to the old primer

17:17:30 <pfps>      provides a comprehensive overview of what has changed in OWL 2.”

Peter Patel-Schneider: provides a comprehensive overview of what has changed in OWL 2.”

17:17:31 <pfps>         1. Change to “For readers already familiar with OWL 1, [OWL 2

Peter Patel-Schneider: 1. Change to “For readers already familiar with OWL 1, [OWL 2

17:17:33 <pfps>            New Features and Rationale

Peter Patel-Schneider: New Features and Rationale

17:17:35 <pfps>            <http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Primer#ref-owl-2-new-features>]

Peter Patel-Schneider: <http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Primer#ref-owl-2-new-features>]

17:17:36 <pfps>            provides a comprehensive overview of what has changed in OWL

Peter Patel-Schneider: provides a comprehensive overview of what has changed in OWL

17:17:38 <pfps>            2. This document also replaces the OWL Guide

Peter Patel-Schneider: 2. This document also replaces the OWL Guide

17:17:39 <bijan> q-

Bijan Parsia: q-

17:17:39 <pfps>            <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/CR-owl-guide-20030818/> provided

Peter Patel-Schneider: <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/CR-owl-guide-20030818/> provided

17:17:39 <elisa> Alan: of the two cases that seems less harmful

Alan Ruttenberg: of the two cases that seems less harmful

17:17:41 <pfps>            for OWL 1.

Peter Patel-Schneider: for OWL 1.

17:17:55 <alanr> seems harmless

Alan Ruttenberg: seems harmless

17:18:06 <bijan> I don't see how that helps anyone, so I don't see why we should include it

Bijan Parsia: I don't see how that helps anyone, so I don't see why we should include it

17:18:11 <alanr> zakim, mute me

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, mute me

17:18:11 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr should now be muted

17:18:23 <alanr> helps deb ;-)

Alan Ruttenberg: helps deb ;-)

17:18:27 <alanr> editorial change

Alan Ruttenberg: editorial change

17:18:31 <elisa> Ian: this seems to be kind of a trivial issue -- we just need to help get this resolved, perhaps we should have a straw poll

Ian Horrocks: this seems to be kind of a trivial issue -- we just need to help get this resolved, perhaps we should have a straw poll

17:18:36 <alanr> agreed

Alan Ruttenberg: agreed

17:18:44 <elisa> Ian:  this is editorial, so it could be dealt with after LC

Ian Horrocks: this is editorial, so it could be dealt with after LC

17:18:48 <MarkusK_> +1 to this being editorial

Markus Krötzsch: +1 to this being editorial

17:18:58 <bijan> Ok, it doesn't seem to help any of the target audience in anyway, so I don't see why we should include it

Bijan Parsia: Ok, it doesn't seem to help any of the target audience in anyway, so I don't see why we should include it

17:19:00 <elisa> ... quick straw poll to see how people feel about this

... quick straw poll to see how people feel about this

17:19:03 <bijan> +1 to it being editorial

Bijan Parsia: +1 to it being editorial

17:19:56 <IanH> STRAW POLL: Primer should not use references to OWL 1 guide to explain differences between OWL 1 and OWL 2

Ian Horrocks: STRAW POLL: Primer should not use references to OWL 1 guide to explain differences between OWL 1 and OWL 2

17:20:15 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1

17:20:21 <bcuencagrau> +1

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1

17:20:24 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

17:20:25 <zimmer> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

17:20:27 <bijan> +1

Bijan Parsia: +1

17:20:28 <Zhe> 0

Zhe Wu: 0

17:20:30 <Achille> 0

Achille Fokoue: 0

17:20:30 <MarkusK_> +1

Markus Krötzsch: +1

17:20:31 <elisa> 0

0

17:20:31 <sandro> 0

Sandro Hawke: 0

17:20:31 <alanr> 0

Alan Ruttenberg: 0

17:20:31 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1

17:20:34 <ekw> 0

Evan Wallace: 0

17:20:34 <msmith> +1

Mike Smith: +1

17:20:35 <baojie> 0 (need to consult Deb)

Jie Bao: 0 (need to consult Deb)

17:20:40 <schneid> -0.2

Michael Schneider: -0.2

17:20:53 <baojie> Zakim, unmute me

Jie Bao: Zakim, unmute me

17:20:53 <Zakim> baojie should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: baojie should no longer be muted

17:21:04 <baojie> +q

Jie Bao: +q

17:21:10 <IanH> ack baojie

Ian Horrocks: ack baojie

17:21:15 <elisa> Ian: most people seem to think that we shouldn't be backwards looking

Ian Horrocks: most people seem to think that we shouldn't be backwards looking

17:21:21 <bijan> Technically, most people either are indifferent or hostile

Bijan Parsia: Technically, most people either are indifferent or hostile

17:21:36 <elisa> Jie: for the record, in general Deb will want a reference to the OWL 1 Guide

Jie Bao: for the record, in general Deb will want a reference to the OWL 1 Guide

17:21:50 <elisa> Ian: this is just general guidance - we can come back to this after last call

Ian Horrocks: this is just general guidance - we can come back to this after last call

17:22:10 <elisa> Topic: Advancing documents to Last Call and Candidate Recommendation

3. Advancing documents to Last Call and Candidate Recommendation

17:22:50 <elisa> Ian: you all have seen the discussion on exit criteria ... the suggestion is that we can vote on progressing the docs, and this only affects the CR docs

Ian Horrocks: you all have seen the discussion on exit criteria ... the suggestion is that we can vote on progressing the docs, and this only affects the CR docs

17:23:14 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:23:16 <elisa> ... we can vote on the docs being ready pending a resolution on the exit criteria, which we could vote on next week

... we can vote on the docs being ready pending a resolution on the exit criteria, which we could vote on next week

17:23:18 <pfps> go for it!

Peter Patel-Schneider: go for it!

17:23:20 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:23:28 <uli> i am happy

Uli Sattler: i am happy

17:23:45 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

17:23:49 <elisa> Ian: any discussion on proposals

Ian Horrocks: any discussion on proposals

17:23:50 <IanH> ack pfps

Ian Horrocks: ack pfps

17:24:23 <elisa> PFPS: just a general comment, it would be nice to have very few changes to the documents at this stage

Peter Patel-Schneider: just a general comment, it would be nice to have very few changes to the documents at this stage

17:24:41 <elisa> Ian: hopefully there would be very few other than what we have to do for publication

Ian Horrocks: hopefully there would be very few other than what we have to do for publication

17:24:46 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:25:10 <sandro> Ian: We don't expect any changes to the documents after this decision (if approved) other than necessary to publish them (eg fixing links)

Ian Horrocks: We don't expect any changes to the documents after this decision (if approved) other than necessary to publish them (eg fixing links) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:25:14 <IanH> PROPOSED: Structural Specification and Functional-Style Syntax, Mapping to RDF Graphs, Direct Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Conformance, Profiles and XML Serialization are ready for publication as Candidate Recommendations, pending a decision on the precise terms of the exit criteria

PROPOSED: Structural Specification and Functional-Style Syntax, Mapping to RDF Graphs, Direct Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Conformance, Profiles and XML Serialization are ready for publication as Candidate Recommendations, pending a decision on the precise terms of the exit criteria

17:25:16 <ekw> i am here

Evan Wallace: i am here

17:25:31 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1

17:25:32 <pfps> +7 ALU (seven votes for seven documents)

Peter Patel-Schneider: +7 ALU (seven votes for seven documents)

17:25:37 <sandro> +1 W3C

Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C

17:25:39 <baojie> 0 (RPI)

Jie Bao: 0 (RPI)

17:25:42 <MarkusK_> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI)

17:25:43 <uli> +1 (Manchester)

Uli Sattler: +1 (Manchester)

17:25:43 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (IBM)

17:25:44 <zimmer> +1 (DERI)

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 (DERI)

17:25:46 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Evan Wallace: +1 (NIST)

17:25:47 <msmith> +1 C&P

Mike Smith: +1 C&P

17:25:47 <Zhe> +1 (ORACLE)

Zhe Wu: +1 (ORACLE)

17:25:50 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons)

17:25:51 <bcuencagrau> +1(Oxford)

Bernardo Cuenca Grau: +1(Oxford)

17:25:57 <elisa> +1 (Sandpiper Software)

+1 (Sandpiper Software)

17:26:26 <IanH> +1 UVSQ (proxy from Christine)

Ian Horrocks: +1 UVSQ (proxy from Christine)

17:26:35 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

17:26:37 <IanH> +1 UvA (proxy from Rinke)

Ian Horrocks: +1 UvA (proxy from Rinke)

17:26:42 <IanH> ack pfps

Ian Horrocks: ack pfps

17:27:04 <elisa> PFPS: just wondering why RPI ... what quibble do they ...

Peter Patel-Schneider: just wondering why RPI ... what quibble do they ...

17:27:30 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

17:27:36 <elisa> Jie: I talked with Jim this morning, and his main concern is with regard to the profiles - he thinks that there is more work do do before they are ready

Jie Bao: I talked with Jim this morning, and his main concern is with regard to the profiles - he thinks that there is more work do do before they are ready

17:27:48 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

17:27:49 <elisa> ... we don't have problems with the other documents

... we don't have problems with the other documents

17:27:58 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:28:02 <IanH> ack pfps

Ian Horrocks: ack pfps

17:28:19 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:28:38 <elisa> PFPS: I am uneasy / unhappy that a working group member didn't air their problems before the vote

Peter Patel-Schneider: I am uneasy / unhappy that a working group member didn't air their problems before the vote

17:28:51 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:28:56 <elisa> Jie: I think Jim has been clear over the last couple of days - this should not be surprising

Jie Bao: I think Jim has been clear over the last couple of days - this should not be surprising

17:29:06 <bijan> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+

17:29:12 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:29:21 <bijan> q-

Bijan Parsia: q-

17:29:23 <elisa> PFPS: It may be that there is confusion between the profiles document and exit criteria, but ...

Peter Patel-Schneider: It may be that there is confusion between the profiles document and exit criteria, but ...

17:29:30 <IanH> ack bijan

Ian Horrocks: ack bijan

17:29:43 <sandro> pfps: I am surprised and very unhappy to learn here and now that RPI has a problem with the Profiles document (as opposed to the Exit Criteria -- that part doesn't surprise me).

Peter Patel-Schneider: I am surprised and very unhappy to learn here and now that RPI has a problem with the Profiles document (as opposed to the Exit Criteria -- that part doesn't surprise me). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:30:06 <IanH> RESOLVED: Structural Specification and Functional-Style Syntax, Mapping to RDF Graphs, Direct Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Conformance, Profiles and XML Serialization are ready for publication as Candidate Recommendations, pending a decision on the precise terms of the exit criteria

RESOLVED: Structural Specification and Functional-Style Syntax, Mapping to RDF Graphs, Direct Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Conformance, Profiles and XML Serialization are ready for publication as Candidate Recommendations, pending a decision on the precise terms of the exit criteria

17:30:12 <schneid> I would be surprised to hear that the Exit Criterium stuff has to do with the profiles, given that the /profiles/ won't probably have problems to meet the exit criteriums...

Michael Schneider: I would be surprised to hear that the Exit Criterium stuff has to do with the profiles, given that the /profiles/ won't probably have problems to meet the exit criteriums...

17:30:14 <sandro> woo hoo

Sandro Hawke: woo hoo

17:30:20 <pfps> a test publication run would help (to discover bad links) -as they can't be done in the Wiki

Peter Patel-Schneider: a test publication run would help (to discover bad links) -as they can't be done in the Wiki

17:30:39 <elisa> Ian: next item is progressing the next set of docs to last call

Ian Horrocks: next item is progressing the next set of docs to last call

17:30:45 <sandro> yep, it's high on my list, Peter.

Sandro Hawke: yep, it's high on my list, Peter.

17:30:54 <IanH> PROPOSED: Document Overview, Primer, New Features and Rationale and Quick Reference Guide are ready for publication as Last Call Working Drafts

PROPOSED: Document Overview, Primer, New Features and Rationale and Quick Reference Guide are ready for publication as Last Call Working Drafts

17:30:59 <msmith> q+ about primer

Mike Smith: q+ about primer

17:31:01 <MarkusK_> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI)

17:31:10 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford)

17:31:12 <zimmer> +1 (DERI)

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 (DERI)

17:31:14 <IanH> ack msmith

Ian Horrocks: ack msmith

17:31:14 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Evan Wallace: +1 (NIST)

17:31:23 <baojie> +1

Jie Bao: +1

17:31:26 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (IBM)

17:31:27 <baojie> +q

Jie Bao: +q

17:31:31 <MarkusK_> q+

Markus Krötzsch: q+

17:31:32 <Zhe> +1 (ORACLE)

Zhe Wu: +1 (ORACLE)

17:31:33 <uli> +1 (Manchester)

Uli Sattler: +1 (Manchester)

17:31:34 <sandro> q+ about rdf:text

Sandro Hawke: q+ about rdf:text

17:31:41 <elisa> msmith: regarding the primer, there was discussion on the OWL DL and OWL Full section of the primer, and I don't think that discussion is concluded

Mike Smith: regarding the primer, there was discussion on the OWL DL and OWL Full section of the primer, and I don't think that discussion is concluded

17:31:57 <elisa> ... we went back and forth on the mailing list, and I don't think that was resolved

... we went back and forth on the mailing list, and I don't think that was resolved

17:32:06 <elisa> Ian: is this really editorial or crucial

Ian Horrocks: is this really editorial or crucial

17:32:09 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:32:13 <msmith> +1

Mike Smith: +1

17:32:18 <elisa> msmith: I think we can resolve to publish and work this out

Mike Smith: I think we can resolve to publish and work this out

17:32:25 <sandro> RRSAgent, make records public

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make records public

17:32:31 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:32:37 <baojie> +1 (RPI)

Jie Bao: +1 (RPI)

17:32:38 <elisa> Ian: then we can work this out during the last call period

Ian Horrocks: then we can work this out during the last call period

17:32:38 <MarkusK_> q+

Markus Krötzsch: q+

17:32:39 <pfps> q- about

Peter Patel-Schneider: q- about

17:32:42 <pfps> q- primer

Peter Patel-Schneider: q- primer

17:32:45 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:32:48 <pfps> q- rdf:text

Peter Patel-Schneider: q- rdf:text

17:32:53 <sandro> thanks peter

Sandro Hawke: thanks peter

17:32:58 <MarkusK_> q+ to answer Mike

Markus Krötzsch: q+ to answer Mike

17:33:02 <IanH> ack baojie

Ian Horrocks: ack baojie

17:33:36 <elisa> Jie: just for the record, for the primer, Deborah still has comments that she does not believe were fully incorporated; editors did acknowledge her suggestions

Jie Bao: just for the record, for the primer, Deborah still has comments that she does not believe were fully incorporated; editors did acknowledge her suggestions

17:33:55 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:33:56 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

17:33:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau (muted), alanr (muted), msmith, bmotik (muted), Zhe (muted), baojie, MarkusK_, ekw (muted), uli

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau (muted), alanr (muted), msmith, bmotik (muted), Zhe (muted), baojie, MarkusK_, ekw (muted), uli

17:33:59 <Zakim> ... (muted), bijan, schneid (muted), Achille, zimmer

Zakim IRC Bot: ... (muted), bijan, schneid (muted), Achille, zimmer

17:34:10 <elisa> ... from Jim on the QRG - he believes that we should mention the OWL Full features, in an appendix, with the additional vocabulary

... from Jim on the QRG - he believes that we should mention the OWL Full features, in an appendix, with the additional vocabulary

17:34:13 <schneid> q+

Michael Schneider: q+

17:34:34 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:34:41 <IanH> ack MarkusK_

Ian Horrocks: ack MarkusK_

17:34:41 <Zakim> MarkusK_, you wanted to answer Mike

Zakim IRC Bot: MarkusK_, you wanted to answer Mike

17:34:47 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:35:11 <msmith> great!  my +1 vote stands, thank you.

Mike Smith: great! my +1 vote stands, thank you.

17:35:21 <elisa> Markus: to Mike -- I'm aware of the comment regarding OWL DL/OWL Full -- will do as suggested and sort this out, it's on the list for addressing very soon

Markus Krötzsch: to Mike -- I'm aware of the comment regarding OWL DL/OWL Full -- will do as suggested and sort this out, it's on the list for addressing very soon

17:35:36 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:35:49 <elisa> ... also from Mike about turtle syntax - had a response and is looking for Mike's ack

... also from Mike about turtle syntax - had a response and is looking for Mike's ack

17:36:09 <elisa> ... from Deborah -- there is an additional open issue that can be fixed quickly

... from Deborah -- there is an additional open issue that can be fixed quickly

17:36:19 <elisa> Ian: so are these really editorial in nature?

Ian Horrocks: so are these really editorial in nature?

17:36:57 <elisa> Markus: yes -- two of them are editorial, plus the issue Mike raised, which is reverting to prior

Markus Krötzsch: yes -- two of them are editorial, plus the issue Mike raised, which is reverting to prior

17:36:58 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

17:37:04 <schneid> zakim, unmute me

Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me

17:37:04 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should no longer be muted

17:37:06 <IanH> ack schneid

Ian Horrocks: ack schneid

17:37:47 <elisa> schneid: I know that there are some terms that are not in the mapping from functional to RDF graphs, but to call them OWL Full -- these should go at least from RDF to functional syntax

Michael Schneider: I know that there are some terms that are not in the mapping from functional to RDF graphs, but to call them OWL Full -- these should go at least from RDF to functional syntax

17:38:14 <elisa> ... this has nothing to do with OWL Full -- the mapping document isn't about OWL Full, and so calling it this way is confusing

... this has nothing to do with OWL Full -- the mapping document isn't about OWL Full, and so calling it this way is confusing

17:38:21 <baojie> i agree

Jie Bao: i agree

17:38:30 <IanH> ack pfps

Ian Horrocks: ack pfps

17:38:34 <schneid> zakim, mute me

Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me

17:38:34 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should now be muted

17:38:34 <elisa> Ian: basically, if we agree that these issues are editorial, then we can vote and come back to them later

Ian Horrocks: basically, if we agree that these issues are editorial, then we can vote and come back to them later

17:39:04 <elisa> PFPS: there is this matter of section 4.2 in the QRG, there is an outstanding disagreement on what it should say; there may be a more serious disagreement

Peter Patel-Schneider: there is this matter of section 4.2 in the QRG, there is an outstanding disagreement on what it should say; there may be a more serious disagreement

17:39:24 <elisa> ... all of this should be put into the earlier sections, depending on what Jim wants ...

... all of this should be put into the earlier sections, depending on what Jim wants ...

17:39:24 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:39:56 <elisa> ... that things like distinctMembers should show up in section 2 or 3

... that things like distinctMembers should show up in section 2 or 3

17:40:21 <elisa> Ian: if this isn't worked out during last call, then in principle you could make an objection that would send it back to last call again

Ian Horrocks: if this isn't worked out during last call, then in principle you could make an objection that would send it back to last call again

17:40:31 <elisa> PFPS: I'm happy with the current state of the document

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm happy with the current state of the document

17:40:32 <baojie> +q

Jie Bao: +q

17:40:46 <IanH> ack baojie

Ian Horrocks: ack baojie

17:40:53 <elisa> Ian: for this to change, we would have to have the discussion

Ian Horrocks: for this to change, we would have to have the discussion

17:41:14 <elisa> Jie: we could add an editors note

Jie Bao: we could add an editors note

17:42:03 <elisa> Ian: we would be voting on the documents in their current state, so we could pull the document from the list of those going to last call

Ian Horrocks: we would be voting on the documents in their current state, so we could pull the document from the list of those going to last call

17:42:44 <bijan> Bit strange that a main editor is voting against the document :)

Bijan Parsia: Bit strange that a main editor is voting against the document :)

17:42:46 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:42:54 <elisa> ... if you want me to split this out from the proposal, we could do so

... if you want me to split this out from the proposal, we could do so

17:43:08 <IanH> PROPOSED: Document Overview, Primer, New Features and Rationale are ready for publication as Last Call Working Drafts

PROPOSED: Document Overview, Primer, New Features and Rationale are ready for publication as Last Call Working Drafts

17:43:12 <alanr> voting against document in current form, with constructive proposal on how to resolve.

Alan Ruttenberg: voting against document in current form, with constructive proposal on how to resolve.

17:43:15 <baojie> +1 (RPI)

Jie Bao: +1 (RPI)

17:43:16 <pfps> +1 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ALU

17:43:16 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Mike Smith: +1 (C&P)

17:43:16 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (IBM)

17:43:17 <alanr> jie is

Alan Ruttenberg: jie is

17:43:17 <MarkusK_> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI)

17:43:18 <alanr> 0

Alan Ruttenberg: 0

17:43:20 <zimmer> +1 (DERI)

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 (DERI)

17:43:23 <Zhe> +1 (ORACLE)

Zhe Wu: +1 (ORACLE)

17:43:24 <uli> +1 (Manchester)

Uli Sattler: +1 (Manchester)

17:43:26 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Evan Wallace: +1 (NIST)

17:43:26 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford)

17:43:33 <elisa> +1 (Sandpiper Software)

+1 (Sandpiper Software)

17:43:39 <sandro> +1 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +1 (W3C)

17:43:43 <alanr> oops +1 on these

Alan Ruttenberg: oops +1 on these

17:43:53 <pfps> I wonder what SC thinks is lacking in these documents.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I wonder what SC thinks is lacking in these documents.

17:43:59 <pfps> sorry

Peter Patel-Schneider: sorry

17:44:19 <IanH> +1 UVSQ (proxy from Christine)

Ian Horrocks: +1 UVSQ (proxy from Christine)

17:44:32 <IanH> +1 UvA (proxy from Rinke)

Ian Horrocks: +1 UvA (proxy from Rinke)

17:44:47 <IanH> RESOLVED: Document Overview, Primer, New Features and Rationale are ready for publication as Last Call Working Drafts

RESOLVED: Document Overview, Primer, New Features and Rationale are ready for publication as Last Call Working Drafts

17:45:14 <pfps> Just a note that there are one or two agreed-on changes to go into Primer.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Just a note that there are one or two agreed-on changes to go into Primer.

17:45:27 <IanH> PROPOSED: Quick Reference Guide is ready for publication as Last Call Working Draft

PROPOSED: Quick Reference Guide is ready for publication as Last Call Working Draft

17:45:31 <pfps> +1 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ALU

17:45:37 <uli> +1 (Manchester)

Uli Sattler: +1 (Manchester)

17:45:45 <alanr> 0 Science Commons

Alan Ruttenberg: 0 Science Commons

17:45:45 <ekw> +1

Evan Wallace: +1

17:45:48 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Mike Smith: +1 (C&P)

17:45:53 <elisa> +1 (Sandpiper Software)

+1 (Sandpiper Software)

17:45:53 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (IBM)

17:45:53 <baojie> -1 (RPI) (need to mention OWL full features in some way)

Jie Bao: -1 (RPI) (need to mention OWL full features in some way)

17:45:53 <zimmer> +1 (DERI)

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 (DERI)

17:45:56 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford)

17:45:56 <Zhe> +1 (ORACLE)

Zhe Wu: +1 (ORACLE)

17:45:59 <MarkusK_> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI)

17:46:00 <IanH> +1 UVSQ (proxy from Christine)

Ian Horrocks: +1 UVSQ (proxy from Christine)

17:46:03 <ekw> +1(NIST)

Evan Wallace: +1(NIST)

17:46:11 <IanH> +1 UvA (proxy from Rinke)

Ian Horrocks: +1 UvA (proxy from Rinke)

17:46:46 <bijan> Will he lie down in the road

Bijan Parsia: Will he lie down in the road

17:46:58 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

17:47:01 <alanr> Do we need to do that, or can we give it the week to resolve?

Alan Ruttenberg: Do we need to do that, or can we give it the week to resolve?

17:47:04 <elisa> Ian: procedure on how to handle objection?

Ian Horrocks: procedure on how to handle objection?

17:47:11 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:47:20 <elisa> Sandro: Jie - are you firmly opposed to this happening today?

Sandro Hawke: Jie - are you firmly opposed to this happening today?

17:47:42 <elisa> ... would you be willing to ... if we have this vote next week, would you be ok?

... would you be willing to ... if we have this vote next week, would you be ok?

17:47:45 <bijan> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+

17:47:50 <pfps> q-

Peter Patel-Schneider: q-

17:47:59 <IanH> ack bijan

Ian Horrocks: ack bijan

17:48:01 <elisa> Jie: if OWL Full features are mentioned in some way, I'll have no objection

Jie Bao: if OWL Full features are mentioned in some way, I'll have no objection

17:48:05 <pfps> I suggest that this be ironed out *quickly*.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I suggest that this be ironed out *quickly*.

17:48:14 <elisa> Ian: so we will postpone this vote to next week

Ian Horrocks: so we will postpone this vote to next week

17:48:38 <alanr> q+

Alan Ruttenberg: q+

17:48:52 <elisa> Bijan: if it goes this way next week, then we should give it up - not have a quick reference quide, and would anyone else be deadlocking

Bijan Parsia: if it goes this way next week, then we should give it up - not have a quick reference quide, and would anyone else be deadlocking

17:48:54 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

17:49:01 <IanH> ack alanr

Ian Horrocks: ack alanr

17:49:18 <elisa> Ian: would others vote against it going to last call if it contains something about OWL Full?

Ian Horrocks: would others vote against it going to last call if it contains something about OWL Full?

17:49:19 <pfps> q-

Peter Patel-Schneider: q-

17:49:20 <alanr> zakim, mute me

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, mute me

17:49:20 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr should now be muted

17:49:26 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:49:32 <elisa> Alan: we could vote on this issue without taking the whole document down

Alan Ruttenberg: we could vote on this issue without taking the whole document down

17:49:39 <bijan> It's not speculation. If no one will oppose the other way we should decide now

Bijan Parsia: It's not speculation. If no one will oppose the other way we should decide now

17:49:48 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:49:53 <elisa> Ian: yes, we should discuss this over the week and see if it can be resolved

Ian Horrocks: yes, we should discuss this over the week and see if it can be resolved

17:50:03 <elisa> Ian: any issues on the third proposal?

Ian Horrocks: any issues on the third proposal?

17:50:03 <schneid> I would like to state that I do not consider this as a discussion about "somthing about OWL Full"

Michael Schneider: I would like to state that I do not consider this as a discussion about "somthing about OWL Full"

17:50:22 <schneid> I said it before

Michael Schneider: I said it before

17:50:23 <bijan> Moving on

Bijan Parsia: Moving on

17:50:25 <bijan> Back to email

Bijan Parsia: Back to email

17:50:26 <IanH> PROPOSED: Manchester Syntax is ready for publication as a Working Group note

PROPOSED: Manchester Syntax is ready for publication as a Working Group note

17:50:29 <alanr> noted - take it to email

Alan Ruttenberg: noted - take it to email

17:50:32 <pfps> +1 ALU

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 ALU

17:50:33 <baojie> +1 (RPI)

Jie Bao: +1 (RPI)

17:50:34 <uli> +1 (Manchester)

Uli Sattler: +1 (Manchester)

17:50:35 <alanr> 0 Science Commons

Alan Ruttenberg: 0 Science Commons

17:50:38 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford)

17:50:39 <msmith> +1 (C&P)

Mike Smith: +1 (C&P)

17:50:40 <zimmer> +1 (DERI)

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 (DERI)

17:50:41 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Evan Wallace: +1 (NIST)

17:50:42 <Zhe> +1 (ORACLE)

Zhe Wu: +1 (ORACLE)

17:50:43 <sandro> +1 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +1 (W3C)

17:50:43 <Achille> 0 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: 0 (IBM)

17:50:46 <elisa> +1 (Sandpiper Software)

+1 (Sandpiper Software)

17:50:48 <MarkusK_> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI)

17:50:48 <Zakim> -schneid

Zakim IRC Bot: -schneid

17:50:54 <IanH> +1 UVSQ (proxy from Christine)

Ian Horrocks: +1 UVSQ (proxy from Christine)

17:50:56 <bijan> q+ to ask about abstainers

Bijan Parsia: q+ to ask about abstainers

17:51:05 <IanH> +1 UvA (proxy from Rinke)

Ian Horrocks: +1 UvA (proxy from Rinke)

17:51:07 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

17:51:09 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:51:15 <schneid> zakim, ??P3 is me

Michael Schneider: zakim, ??P3 is me

17:51:15 <Zakim> +schneid; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +schneid; got it

17:51:19 <schneid> zakim, mute me

Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me

17:51:19 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should now be muted

17:51:30 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:51:33 <IanH> ack bijan

Ian Horrocks: ack bijan

17:51:33 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to ask about abstainers

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, you wanted to ask about abstainers

17:51:46 <alanr> I abstained because the issue of labels was not resolved in a way I was comfortable

Alan Ruttenberg: I abstained because the issue of labels was not resolved in a way I was comfortable

17:51:48 <elisa> Bijan: about the abstainers -- in general it's better if we don't have abstentions ... is there anything that would change their position

Bijan Parsia: about the abstainers -- in general it's better if we don't have abstentions ... is there anything that would change their position

17:52:10 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:52:23 <alanr> zakim, mute me

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, mute me

17:52:23 <Zakim> alanr was already muted, alanr

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr was already muted, alanr

17:52:28 <elisa> Achille: I'm still not convinced that we need yet another syntax

Achille Fokoue: I'm still not convinced that we need yet another syntax

17:52:59 <pfps> This is not a REC document, just a Note, so I think that we have already taken care of Achille's issue.

Peter Patel-Schneider: This is not a REC document, just a Note, so I think that we have already taken care of Achille's issue.

17:53:08 <IanH> RESOLVED: Manchester Syntax is ready for publication as a Working Group note

RESOLVED: Manchester Syntax is ready for publication as a Working Group note

17:53:18 <bijan> HURRAH!

Bijan Parsia: HURRAH!

17:53:22 <Zhe> :)

Zhe Wu: :)

17:53:22 <alanr> woot!

Alan Ruttenberg: woot!

17:53:54 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:53:57 <Zakim> -schneid

Zakim IRC Bot: -schneid

17:54:00 <elisa> Topic: back to the discussion on rdf:text

4. back to the discussion on rdf:text

17:54:08 <alanr> we said we would put it at risk

Alan Ruttenberg: we said we would put it at risk

17:54:08 <Zakim> -bijan

Zakim IRC Bot: -bijan

17:54:16 <alanr> yes

Alan Ruttenberg: yes

17:54:20 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

17:54:22 <alanr> beginning of the meeting

Alan Ruttenberg: beginning of the meeting

17:54:28 <schneid> zakim, ??P3 is me

Michael Schneider: zakim, ??P3 is me

17:54:28 <Zakim> +schneid; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +schneid; got it

17:54:30 <schneid> zakim, mute me

Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me

17:54:30 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should now be muted

17:54:34 <alanr> no resolution. Ian said we will do. No one had comments.

Alan Ruttenberg: no resolution. Ian said we will do. No one had comments.

17:55:04 <alanr> issue: vote not announced before meeting...

ISSUE: vote not announced before meeting...

17:55:05 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-151 - Vote not announced before meeting... ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/151/edit .

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-151 - Vote not announced before meeting... ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/151/edit .

17:55:05 <MarkusK_> Update on Primer: the two open concerns of Mike have been settled and confirmed by email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2009May/0232.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2009May/0230.html (sorry for this late addon to the earlier discussion)

Markus Krötzsch: Update on Primer: the two open concerns of Mike have been settled and confirmed by email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2009May/0232.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2009May/0230.html (sorry for this late addon to the earlier discussion)

17:55:08 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:55:13 <elisa> Sandro: we should have a resolution on the rdf:text issue with an action to have someone make the changes to the documents

Sandro Hawke: we should have a resolution on the rdf:text issue with an action to have someone make the changes to the documents

17:55:30 <elisa> Ian: so let's have discussion on making rdf:text at risk

Ian Horrocks: so let's have discussion on making rdf:text at risk

17:55:33 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:56:02 <elisa> Sandro: high-level summary - there seem to be strong positions on several sides;

Sandro Hawke: high-level summary - there seem to be strong positions on several sides;

17:56:04 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

17:56:24 <bmotik> q+

Boris Motik: q+

17:56:34 <alanr> reduces change of having an LC if things go back

Alan Ruttenberg: reduces change of having an LC if things go back

17:56:35 <elisa> ... several people from SPARQL, Pat Hayes have positions that are not clear in terms of how to reconcile

... several people from SPARQL, Pat Hayes have positions that are not clear in terms of how to reconcile

17:56:39 <alanr> s/change/chance/

Alan Ruttenberg: s/change/chance/

17:56:52 <IanH> ack pfps

Ian Horrocks: ack pfps

17:56:54 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me

Boris Motik: Zakim, unmute me

17:56:54 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should no longer be muted

17:56:57 <elisa> ... we still might have to go back to last call, but this increases the odds of being able to proceed

... we still might have to go back to last call, but this increases the odds of being able to proceed

17:57:06 <Zakim> -schneid

Zakim IRC Bot: -schneid

17:57:10 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:57:12 <sandro> sandro: Putting rdf:text At Risk reduced the odds of us needing to go back to Last Call if rdf:text changes.

Sandro Hawke: Putting rdf:text At Risk reduced the odds of us needing to go back to Last Call if rdf:text changes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:57:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

17:57:41 <elisa> PFPS: I was thinking about what needs to be changed - the direct semantics is in the worst shape; as far as implementations go, very little would need to be changed to take out rdf:text, as long as implementers

Peter Patel-Schneider: I was thinking about what needs to be changed - the direct semantics is in the worst shape; as far as implementations go, very little would need to be changed to take out rdf:text, as long as implementers

17:57:47 <alanr> alan +1 to peter's assessment

Alan Ruttenberg: alan +1 to peter's assessment

17:57:50 <elisa> ... agree to put in a switch somewhere

... agree to put in a switch somewhere

17:57:59 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

17:58:03 <alanr> syntax

Alan Ruttenberg: syntax

17:58:11 <schneid> zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Michael Schneider: zakim, [IPcaller] is me

17:58:11 <Zakim> +schneid; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +schneid; got it

17:58:12 <elisa> Sandro: if we can flag those points now

Sandro Hawke: if we can flag those points now

17:58:14 <schneid> zakim, mute me

Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me

17:58:14 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should now be muted

17:58:14 <IanH> ack bmotik

Ian Horrocks: ack bmotik

17:58:38 <elisa> PFPS: direct semantics will be the most difficult

Peter Patel-Schneider: direct semantics will be the most difficult

17:59:24 <bmotik> I'm surprised with the option of removing rdf:text.

Boris Motik: I'm surprised with the option of removing rdf:text.

17:59:30 <bmotik> What would have put into the documents then?

Boris Motik: What would have put into the documents then?

17:59:39 <bmotik> We'd need to change Syntax quite a bit

Boris Motik: We'd need to change Syntax quite a bit

17:59:47 <pfps> It would be a mess, I agree.

Peter Patel-Schneider: It would be a mess, I agree.

17:59:51 <bmotik> And the facets should go away.

Boris Motik: And the facets should go away.

17:59:56 <bmotik> We should *NOT* go there.

Boris Motik: We should *NOT* go there.

18:00:03 <bmotik> WE should make these people see the light.

Boris Motik: WE should make these people see the light.

18:00:14 <bmotik> In fact, I think that only Pat is entrneched.

Boris Motik: In fact, I think that only Pat is entrneched.

18:00:19 <alanr> Let's hope for the best, but document our current state well to protect ourselves

Alan Ruttenberg: Let's hope for the best, but document our current state well to protect ourselves

18:00:20 <pfps> One option would be to have owl:text!

Peter Patel-Schneider: One option would be to have owl:text!

18:00:29 <bmotik> I had an impression that Andy and Eric were more of less conceding.

Boris Motik: I had an impression that Andy and Eric were more of less conceding.

18:00:30 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

18:00:38 <bmotik> But this might have been just my impression.

Boris Motik: But this might have been just my impression.

18:00:43 <IanH> ack pfps

Ian Horrocks: ack pfps

18:00:58 <bmotik> Pat is the only one with a really strong opinion about it.

Boris Motik: Pat is the only one with a really strong opinion about it.

18:00:59 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:01:02 <elisa> PFPS: Let's make it owl:text

Peter Patel-Schneider: Let's make it owl:text

18:01:14 <elisa> Sandro: it might help, it's hard to say

Sandro Hawke: it might help, it's hard to say

18:01:34 <elisa> PFPS: owl:text would make it internal to our documents, and we could arrange to emit the right things

Peter Patel-Schneider: owl:text would make it internal to our documents, and we could arrange to emit the right things

18:01:49 <bmotik> But that's already there!

Boris Motik: But that's already there!

18:02:10 <bmotik> Well, there was a MUST in the documents,

Boris Motik: Well, there was a MUST in the documents,

18:02:10 <elisa> Sandro: if we can be careful enough about what we emit, then that's one option

Sandro Hawke: if we can be careful enough about what we emit, then that's one option

18:02:11 <pfps> I can write up a CM - what needs to be change to make various things work.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I can write up a CM - what needs to be change to make various things work.

18:02:16 <bmotik> and people changed it to SHOULD.

Boris Motik: and people changed it to SHOULD.

18:02:25 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:02:35 <alanr> we are not going to solve this now.

Alan Ruttenberg: we are not going to solve this now.

18:02:36 <bmotik> I'm open to this.

Boris Motik: I'm open to this.

18:02:43 <elisa> Sandro: it didn't handle the lang function -- is it just wordsmithing about how we emit the triples, or is there some other solution

Sandro Hawke: it didn't handle the lang function -- is it just wordsmithing about how we emit the triples, or is there some other solution

18:02:45 <alanr> at hand is dealing with putting at risk.

Alan Ruttenberg: at hand is dealing with putting at risk.

18:03:07 <pfps> An "at risk" statement has to give the fallback position!

Peter Patel-Schneider: An "at risk" statement has to give the fallback position!

18:03:14 <bmotik> I need more fire power.

Boris Motik: I need more fire power.

18:03:14 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:03:26 <elisa> Ian: is there anything we can really do aside from this at risk position

Ian Horrocks: is there anything we can really do aside from this at risk position

18:03:34 <alanr> fallback position is remove rdf:text from OWL 2

Alan Ruttenberg: fallback position is remove rdf:text from OWL 2

18:03:42 <uli> Boris, how can we help with fire power?

Uli Sattler: Boris, how can we help with fire power?

18:04:01 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

18:04:05 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:04:08 <elisa> Sandro: this gives us a little more cover for some changes that might happen - at risk is more of a comment allowing us to refactor how owl:text is handled

Sandro Hawke: this gives us a little more cover for some changes that might happen - at risk is more of a comment allowing us to refactor how owl:text is handled

18:04:11 <IanH> zakim, who is here?

Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here?

18:04:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau (muted), alanr (muted), msmith, bmotik, Zhe (muted), baojie, MarkusK_, ekw (muted), uli (muted),

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Sandro, IanH, Elisa_Kendall, bcuencagrau (muted), alanr (muted), msmith, bmotik, Zhe (muted), baojie, MarkusK_, ekw (muted), uli (muted),

18:04:14 <Zakim> ... Achille, zimmer, schneid (muted), ??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Achille, zimmer, schneid (muted), ??P2

18:04:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see christine, Achille, schneid, Zhe, uli, baojie, bmotik, MarkusK_, msmith, bcuencagrau, pfps, elisa, ekw, zimmer, RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, IanH, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see christine, Achille, schneid, Zhe, uli, baojie, bmotik, MarkusK_, msmith, bcuencagrau, pfps, elisa, ekw, zimmer, RRSAgent, Zakim, alanr, IanH, sandro, trackbot

18:04:27 <christine> zakim, ??P2 is christine

Christine Golbreich: zakim, ??P2 is christine

18:04:27 <Zakim> +christine; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +christine; got it

18:04:28 <elisa> PFPS: that may be the best worst we can do

Peter Patel-Schneider: that may be the best worst we can do

18:04:54 <elisa> Ian: we could propose to mark rdf:text as being at risk - is that reasonable at this point?

Ian Horrocks: we could propose to mark rdf:text as being at risk - is that reasonable at this point?

18:04:55 <pfps> Reasonable is not the word to use.  :-(

Peter Patel-Schneider: Reasonable is not the word to use. :-(

18:05:04 <IanH> PROPOSED: rdf:text should be marked as being "at risk"

PROPOSED: rdf:text should be marked as being "at risk"

18:05:20 <pfps> +0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

Peter Patel-Schneider: +0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

18:05:21 <sandro> +1 (W3C)

Sandro Hawke: +1 (W3C)

18:05:26 <baojie> 0 (RPI)

Jie Bao: 0 (RPI)

18:05:29 <elisa> +1 (Sandpiper Software)

+1 (Sandpiper Software)

18:05:30 <alanr> +1 (Science Commons)

Alan Ruttenberg: +1 (Science Commons)

18:05:31 <Achille> +1 (IBM)

Achille Fokoue: +1 (IBM)

18:05:31 <bmotik> +1 (Oxford)

Boris Motik: +1 (Oxford)

18:05:31 <ekw> +1 (NIST)

Evan Wallace: +1 (NIST)

18:05:37 <MarkusK_> +1 (FZI)

Markus Krötzsch: +1 (FZI)

18:05:40 <Zhe> +1 (ORACLE)

Zhe Wu: +1 (ORACLE)

18:05:50 <zimmer> 0 (DERI)

Antoine Zimmermann: 0 (DERI)

18:05:56 <msmith> +1

Mike Smith: +1

18:05:58 <uli> +0 (Manchester)

Uli Sattler: +0 (Manchester)

18:06:19 <elisa> Ian: any more on this?

Ian Horrocks: any more on this?

18:06:30 <IanH> RESOLVED: rdf:text should be marked as being "at risk"

RESOLVED: rdf:text should be marked as being "at risk"

18:06:57 <bmotik> q+

Boris Motik: q+

18:07:02 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:07:03 <bmotik> I could use some more fire power.

Boris Motik: I could use some more fire power.

18:07:06 <IanH> ack bmotik

Ian Horrocks: ack bmotik

18:07:15 <bmotik> Yes.

Boris Motik: Yes.

18:07:16 <pfps> I'll take a look.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll take a look.

18:07:27 <alanr> "oh no"

Alan Ruttenberg: "oh no"

18:07:28 <elisa> Ian: so more of us will try to look at this and join in the discussion

Ian Horrocks: so more of us will try to look at this and join in the discussion

18:07:57 <pfps> Any *discussion* on CR exit?

Peter Patel-Schneider: Any *discussion* on CR exit?

18:08:03 <elisa> Ian: did not really cover last call comments

Ian Horrocks: did not really cover last call comments

18:08:12 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:08:27 <elisa> Ian: any utility in discussing LC comments and responses? ...no...

Ian Horrocks: any utility in discussing LC comments and responses? ...no...

18:08:27 <schneid> I am still waiting for Jeremy to answer the NPA reply

Michael Schneider: I am still waiting for Jeremy to answer the NPA reply

18:08:34 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/CR_Exit_Criteria

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/CR_Exit_Criteria

18:08:42 <pfps> I've been following the (d)evolution of the page.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I've been following the (d)evolution of the page.

18:08:43 <IanH> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/CR_Exit_Criterai

Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/CR_Exit_Criterai

18:08:51 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

18:08:52 <elisa> Ian: CR exit criteria -- has anyone had a chance to look at the proposal and have comments?

Ian Horrocks: CR exit criteria -- has anyone had a chance to look at the proposal and have comments?

18:08:52 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:08:56 <IanH> ack pfps

Ian Horrocks: ack pfps

18:09:10 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:09:51 <elisa> PFPS: in particular, the four profiles -- look just right; the only change I might make - we might be able to get away with one implementation that shows benefits, and the other shows interoperability

Peter Patel-Schneider: in particular, the four profiles -- look just right; the only change I might make - we might be able to get away with one implementation that shows benefits, and the other shows interoperability

18:09:51 <alanr> seems reasonable

Alan Ruttenberg: seems reasonable

18:10:00 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:10:15 <msmith> q+ to ask about benefit

Mike Smith: q+ to ask about benefit

18:10:20 <elisa> Ian: yes, what we have may be a bit strong - one that shows benefit and one that shows interoperability might be enough,

Ian Horrocks: yes, what we have may be a bit strong - one that shows benefit and one that shows interoperability might be enough,

18:10:21 <IanH> ack msmith

Ian Horrocks: ack msmith

18:10:21 <Zakim> msmith, you wanted to ask about benefit

Zakim IRC Bot: msmith, you wanted to ask about benefit

18:10:27 <elisa> ... we might get some pushback on that

... we might get some pushback on that

18:10:42 <pfps> In my opinion Pellet works as a native EL reasoner.

Peter Patel-Schneider: In my opinion Pellet works as a native EL reasoner.

18:10:46 <alanr> that works

Alan Ruttenberg: that works

18:10:55 <elisa> msmith: what do you mean by shows benefit -- demonstrating that the benefit comes from EL vs DL comes down to run time

Mike Smith: what do you mean by shows benefit -- demonstrating that the benefit comes from EL vs DL comes down to run time

18:10:57 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

18:11:02 <alanr> performance is a feature

Alan Ruttenberg: performance is a feature

18:11:02 <MarkusK_> q+

Markus Krötzsch: q+

18:11:19 <msmith> great

Mike Smith: great

18:11:19 <sandro> yeah, that works.  Pellet can count as both DL and EL (given having this special EL processor in it).

Sandro Hawke: yeah, that works. Pellet can count as both DL and EL (given having this special EL processor in it).

18:11:23 <elisa> Ian: Pellet is a perfect example - using a different algorithm to demonstrate EL

Ian Horrocks: Pellet is a perfect example - using a different algorithm to demonstrate EL

18:11:24 <IanH> ack pfps

Ian Horrocks: ack pfps

18:11:46 <elisa> PFPS: Pellet is not only acceptable EL exemplar, but exemplary EL exemplar

Peter Patel-Schneider: Pellet is not only acceptable EL exemplar, but exemplary EL exemplar

18:12:15 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

18:12:17 <elisa> Sandro: we might want to change the language to make this clear

Sandro Hawke: we might want to change the language to make this clear

18:12:23 <pfps> q+ to ask about process

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+ to ask about process

18:12:43 <IanH> ack MarkusK_

Ian Horrocks: ack MarkusK_

18:12:44 <elisa> Ian: should make this clear that multiple examples could be supported by the same implementation

Ian Horrocks: should make this clear that multiple examples could be supported by the same implementation

18:12:45 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:13:30 <elisa> Markus: benefit in the fact that you have it implemented

Markus Krötzsch: benefit in the fact that you have it implemented

18:13:51 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:13:54 <IanH> ack pfps

Ian Horrocks: ack pfps

18:13:54 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to ask about process

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps, you wanted to ask about process

18:14:12 <elisa> Ian: we are really dependent on the integrity of implementers that their implementation supports this, which is ok

Ian Horrocks: we are really dependent on the integrity of implementers that their implementation supports this, which is ok

18:14:14 <uli> ?

Uli Sattler: ?

18:14:18 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:14:38 <uli> can you repeat the question, peter?

Uli Sattler: can you repeat the question, peter?

18:14:41 <elisa> PFPS: so if we don't have an implementation for OWL2 QL, does that throw OWL2 under the bus, or the profiles under the bus?

Peter Patel-Schneider: so if we don't have an implementation for OWL2 QL, does that throw OWL2 under the bus, or the profiles under the bus?

18:14:58 <alanr> but we shouldn't have any trouble finding QL implementations - quonto/owlgres

Alan Ruttenberg: but we shouldn't have any trouble finding QL implementations - quonto/owlgres

18:15:13 <elisa> ... I would hope that we could claim that we can only yank that profile rather than the whole profile section

... I would hope that we could claim that we can only yank that profile rather than the whole profile section

18:15:18 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:15:28 <elisa> PFPS: what happens if we flunk the OWL Full test?

Peter Patel-Schneider: what happens if we flunk the OWL Full test?

18:15:31 <alanr> deliberately loose for the owl full language

Alan Ruttenberg: deliberately loose for the owl full language

18:15:41 <schneid> q+

Michael Schneider: q+

18:15:45 <schneid> zakim, unmute me

Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me

18:15:45 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should no longer be muted

18:15:47 <IanH> ack schneid

Ian Horrocks: ack schneid

18:16:43 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:16:49 <elisa> schneid: should the test suite -- there will be no hope for reaching the 80% mark - there are some tests that are not as hard as the special tests from OWL 1, but they are crafted in a way such that certain reasoners will have no chance

Michael Schneider: should the test suite -- there will be no hope for reaching the 80% mark - there are some tests that are not as hard as the special tests from OWL 1, but they are crafted in a way such that certain reasoners will have no chance

18:17:07 <elisa> Sandro: the question here is whether there will be tests that no reasoner can pass

Sandro Hawke: the question here is whether there will be tests that no reasoner can pass

18:17:36 <elisa> schneid: I can look at it and say that these tests are probably handled by general reasoners and these are probably not

Michael Schneider: I can look at it and say that these tests are probably handled by general reasoners and these are probably not

18:17:48 <ekw> Gotta go!  Bye.

Evan Wallace: Gotta go! Bye.

18:17:54 <Zakim> -ekw

Zakim IRC Bot: -ekw

18:18:03 <elisa> Ian: do you think it would be possible to develop a reasoner that would pass those tests?

Ian Horrocks: do you think it would be possible to develop a reasoner that would pass those tests?

18:18:34 <alanr> q+

Alan Ruttenberg: q+

18:18:38 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:18:52 <sandro> Possible clause (that I DON'T support):    Every OWL 2 Full test case must be passed by at least two entailment checkers

Sandro Hawke: Possible clause (that I DON'T support): Every OWL 2 Full test case must be passed by at least two entailment checkers

18:18:57 <elisa> schneid: I don't know what was done in the past - it would take time to produce it; perhaps 40% would go through Jena

Michael Schneider: I don't know what was done in the past - it would take time to produce it; perhaps 40% would go through Jena

18:19:03 <IanH> ack alanr

Ian Horrocks: ack alanr

18:19:33 <elisa> Alan: you can do that, but do you think that the exit criteria would be strengthen by having some number of tests

Alan Ruttenberg: you can do that, but do you think that the exit criteria would be strengthen by having some number of tests

18:19:43 <alanr> zakim, mute me

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, mute me

18:19:43 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr should now be muted

18:20:21 <elisa> schneid: we have a number of really good reasoners - could we create a system in the next few weeks that would do most of our test cases ...

Michael Schneider: we have a number of really good reasoners - could we create a system in the next few weeks that would do most of our test cases ...

18:20:39 <elisa> Ian: what we have to determine is whether the current wording in the exit criteria is reasonable

Ian Horrocks: what we have to determine is whether the current wording in the exit criteria is reasonable

18:20:59 <alanr> Michael - can you send email suggesting a proposal?

Alan Ruttenberg: Michael - can you send email suggesting a proposal?

18:21:15 <alanr> and we can discuss this on email this week

Alan Ruttenberg: and we can discuss this on email this week

18:21:26 <elisa> schneid: we should completely rethink this, because we're just lucky that we have existing reasoners that can do this, but you can't compare OWL to HTML

Michael Schneider: we should completely rethink this, because we're just lucky that we have existing reasoners that can do this, but you can't compare OWL to HTML

18:21:52 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:21:54 <elisa> Ian: I sympathize, but this kind of exit criteria ... is at least strongly expected

Ian Horrocks: I sympathize, but this kind of exit criteria ... is at least strongly expected

18:22:06 <elisa> Sandro: we need to prove that the specification is implementable

Sandro Hawke: we need to prove that the specification is implementable

18:22:38 <elisa> Ian: why would we not just say that it is obviously implementable

Ian Horrocks: why would we not just say that it is obviously implementable

18:22:47 <elisa> schneid: it should at least be realistic

Michael Schneider: it should at least be realistic

18:22:55 <elisa> Sandro: aside from OWL Full

Sandro Hawke: aside from OWL Full

18:23:11 <elisa> schneid: we can meet all the other profiles and OWL DL easily ...

Michael Schneider: we can meet all the other profiles and OWL DL easily ...

18:23:16 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:23:16 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

18:23:21 <elisa> Ian: so we're only discussing OWL Full

Ian Horrocks: so we're only discussing OWL Full

18:24:01 <elisa> schneid: all I want is ... I will do what I can in the time that I have, but it is unrealistic to reach 80%

Michael Schneider: all I want is ... I will do what I can in the time that I have, but it is unrealistic to reach 80%

18:24:11 <sandro> "#  Two different implementations of an OWL 2 Full entailment checker implementing useful subsets of OWL Full and taking advantage of at least some of the claimed benefits of OWL 2 Full† "

Sandro Hawke: "# Two different implementations of an OWL 2 Full entailment checker implementing useful subsets of OWL Full and taking advantage of at least some of the claimed benefits of OWL 2 Full† "

18:24:31 <uli> so where is the problem then?

Uli Sattler: so where is the problem then?

18:24:44 <elisa> schneid: if something like a significant part is enough,

Michael Schneider: if something like a significant part is enough,

18:25:03 <elisa> Ian: I'm not really understanding your objection/suggestion

Ian Horrocks: I'm not really understanding your objection/suggestion

18:25:21 <elisa> Sandro: he may be talking about the 80% text that has been removed

Sandro Hawke: he may be talking about the 80% text that has been removed

18:25:28 <alanr> happy?

Alan Ruttenberg: happy?

18:25:34 <uli> Michael, you worry about things you shouldn't worry about!

Uli Sattler: Michael, you worry about things you shouldn't worry about!

18:25:35 <elisa> schneid: a useful subset is fine -- that's what Jena already does

Michael Schneider: a useful subset is fine -- that's what Jena already does

18:25:39 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:25:39 <alanr> good.

Alan Ruttenberg: good.

18:25:40 <msmith> exactly!  we're in agreement. :)

Mike Smith: exactly! we're in agreement. :)

18:26:33 <elisa> Ian: would you prefer if we put in that implementations should pass some tests

Ian Horrocks: would you prefer if we put in that implementations should pass some tests

18:26:45 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

18:26:46 <elisa> ... we can take that into email discussion

... we can take that into email discussion

18:26:54 <schneid> zakim, mute me

Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me

18:26:54 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should now be muted

18:27:12 <elisa> Ian: we're really out of time

Ian Horrocks: we're really out of time

18:27:16 <msmith> msmith: Two notable changes to test results...

Mike Smith: Two notable changes to test results... [ Scribe Assist by Mike Smith ]

18:27:16 <msmith> msmith: 1) Test suite results now include OWLAPI profile checking results.  Some failures for profile checks, for which I will follow up to determine if the tester or the test is wrong.

Mike Smith: 1) Test suite results now include OWLAPI profile checking results. Some failures for profile checks, for which I will follow up to determine if the tester or the test is wrong. [ Scribe Assist by Mike Smith ]

18:27:16 <msmith> msmith: 2) All RDF vocab is now used in at least one test case (with an exception for property used with nary datatype restrictions).

Mike Smith: 2) All RDF vocab is now used in at least one test case (with an exception for property used with nary datatype restrictions). [ Scribe Assist by Mike Smith ]

18:27:37 <elisa> ... we'll be coming back to talk about test suites over the next few weeks, in CR we will be doing much more testing

... we'll be coming back to talk about test suites over the next few weeks, in CR we will be doing much more testing

18:27:42 <elisa> Ian: AOB?

Ian Horrocks: AOB?

18:27:53 <uli> hurray!

Uli Sattler: hurray!

18:28:15 <elisa> Ian: congratulations for progressing almost all of our documents;

Ian Horrocks: congratulations for progressing almost all of our documents;

18:28:18 <alanr> bye

Alan Ruttenberg: bye

18:28:19 <Zakim> -uli

Zakim IRC Bot: -uli

18:28:21 <Zakim> -baojie

Zakim IRC Bot: -baojie

18:28:21 <Zhe> bye

Zhe Wu: bye

18:28:22 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider

18:28:22 <Zakim> -msmith

Zakim IRC Bot: -msmith

18:28:23 <Zakim> -bmotik

Zakim IRC Bot: -bmotik

18:28:24 <Zakim> -Zhe

Zakim IRC Bot: -Zhe

18:28:26 <Zakim> -alanr

Zakim IRC Bot: -alanr

18:28:26 <Zakim> -MarkusK_

Zakim IRC Bot: -MarkusK_

18:28:28 <Zakim> -Achille

Zakim IRC Bot: -Achille

18:28:32 <Zakim> -bcuencagrau

Zakim IRC Bot: -bcuencagrau

18:28:35 <zimmer> good bye

Antoine Zimmermann: good bye

18:28:40 <Zakim> -schneid

Zakim IRC Bot: -schneid

18:28:50 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public

Ian Horrocks: RRSAgent, make records public



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This revision (#2) generated 2009-05-25 13:08:58 UTC by 'ihorrock2', comments: 'Added Christine to attendees list'