17:45:19 <scribenick> PRESENT: bijan (muted), MarkusK_, ratnesh, Alan Ruttenberg, bmotik (muted), pfps, Achille, Sandro, IanH, msmith, Elisa_Kendall, Zhe, Bernardo (muted), Ivan, uli (muted), Michael schneider, Evan, MartinD, Antoine Zimmermann, Jie Bao
17:45:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-owl-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-owl-irc ←
17:46:36 <bijan> zakim, this is owl
Bijan Parsia: zakim, this is owl ←
17:46:36 <Zakim> bijan, Team_(owlc)16:58Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move owl to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, Team_(owlc)16:58Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move owl to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel ←
17:48:48 <bijan> zakim, this will be owlwg
Bijan Parsia: zakim, this will be owlwg ←
17:48:48 <Zakim> ok, bijan; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, bijan; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes ←
17:48:56 <bijan> ScribeNick: bijan
(Scribe set to Bijan Parsia)
17:49:02 <bijan> RRSAgent, make records public
RRSAgent, make records public ←
17:50:16 <pfps> pfps has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2009.02.18/Agenda
Peter Patel-Schneider: pfps has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2009.02.18/Agenda ←
17:56:15 <zimmer> Hi everybody!
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Antoine Zimmermann: Hi everybody! ←
17:57:20 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started ←
17:57:27 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
17:57:41 <bijan> zakim, ??P2 is me
zakim, ??P2 is me ←
17:57:41 <Zakim> +bijan; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bijan; got it ←
17:59:37 <bmotik> Zakim, this will be owl
Boris Motik: Zakim, this will be owl ←
17:59:37 <Zakim> ok, bmotik, I see SW_OWL()1:00PM already started
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, bmotik, I see SW_OWL()1:00PM already started ←
17:59:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
17:59:46 <Zakim> +??P7
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7 ←
18:00:01 <Zakim> +Alan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Alan ←
18:00:15 <ratnesh> zakim, ??P7 is me
Ratnesh Sahay: zakim, ??P7 is me ←
18:00:15 <Zakim> +ratnesh; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ratnesh; got it ←
18:00:25 <Zakim> +bmotik
Zakim IRC Bot: +bmotik ←
18:00:28 <bijan> zakim, mute me
zakim, mute me ←
18:00:28 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:00:30 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
18:00:30 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
18:00:39 <bijan> yes
yes ←
18:00:42 <zimmer> zakim, ??P7 is me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, ??P7 is me ←
18:00:42 <Zakim> I already had ??P7 as ratnesh, zimmer
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P7 as ratnesh, zimmer ←
18:00:45 <Zakim> +pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps ←
18:00:57 <Zakim> +[IBM]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM] ←
18:01:18 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
18:01:29 <Zakim> +bmotik.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +bmotik.a ←
18:01:39 <Bernardo> Zakim bmotik.a is me
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Zakim bmotik.a is me ←
18:01:58 <Bernardo> Zakim, mute me
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Zakim, mute me ←
18:01:58 <Zakim> sorry, Bernardo, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Bernardo, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←
18:02:05 <Zakim> +IanH
Zakim IRC Bot: +IanH ←
18:02:19 <Zakim> -bmotik.a
Zakim IRC Bot: -bmotik.a ←
18:02:30 <zimmer> Ratnesh and I are both on P7
Antoine Zimmermann: Ratnesh and I are both on P7 ←
18:02:32 <Zakim> +msmith
Zakim IRC Bot: +msmith ←
18:03:33 <bmotik> Zakim, bmotik.a is Bernardo
Boris Motik: Zakim, bmotik.a is Bernardo ←
18:03:33 <Zakim> sorry, bmotik, I do not recognize a party named 'bmotik.a'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, bmotik, I do not recognize a party named 'bmotik.a' ←
18:03:42 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←
18:04:20 <Zakim> +Zhe
Zakim IRC Bot: +Zhe ←
18:04:27 <alanr> there was a "-bmotik.a" bernardo
Alan Ruttenberg: there was a "-bmotik.a" bernardo ←
18:04:32 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
18:04:32 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
18:04:33 <Zakim> +bmotik.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +bmotik.a ←
18:04:34 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
18:04:45 <Zakim> +??P24
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24 ←
18:04:48 <Bernardo> Zakim, bmotik.a is Bernardo
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Zakim, bmotik.a is Bernardo ←
18:04:48 <Zakim> +Bernardo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Bernardo; got it ←
18:04:52 <uli> zakim, ??P24 is me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P24 is me ←
18:04:52 <Zakim> +uli; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it ←
18:04:56 <Bernardo> Zakim, mute me
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: Zakim, mute me ←
18:04:56 <Zakim> Bernardo should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Bernardo should now be muted ←
18:04:56 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
18:04:57 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
18:04:59 <Zakim> +??P25
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25 ←
18:05:05 <schneid> zakim, ??P25 is me
Michael Schneider: zakim, ??P25 is me ←
18:05:05 <Zakim> +schneid; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +schneid; got it ←
18:05:09 <schneid> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
18:05:09 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should now be muted ←
18:05:28 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
Zakim IRC Bot: +Evan_Wallace ←
18:05:30 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, who is here? ←
18:05:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), MarkusK_, ratnesh, Alan, bmotik (muted), pfps, [IBM], Sandro, IanH, msmith, Elisa_Kendall, Zhe, Bernardo (muted), Ivan, uli (muted), schneid
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bijan (muted), MarkusK_, ratnesh, Alan, bmotik (muted), pfps, [IBM], Sandro, IanH, msmith, Elisa_Kendall, Zhe, Bernardo (muted), Ivan, uli (muted), schneid ←
18:05:34 <Zakim> ... (muted), Evan_Wallace
Zakim IRC Bot: ... (muted), Evan_Wallace ←
18:05:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see ewallace, schneid, Zhe, uli, ivan, msmith, elisa, Achille, Bernardo, MarkusK_, bmotik, ratnesh, zimmer, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, MartinD, alanr, IanH, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ewallace, schneid, Zhe, uli, ivan, msmith, elisa, Achille, Bernardo, MarkusK_, bmotik, ratnesh, zimmer, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, MartinD, alanr, IanH, sandro, ←
18:05:37 <Zakim> ... trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot ←
18:06:00 <bijan> Alan: Agenda amendments? No? Ok
Alan Ruttenberg: Agenda amendments? No? Ok ←
18:06:07 <bijan> Alan: Previous minutes
Alan Ruttenberg: Previous minutes ←
18:06:15 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
zakim, unmute me ←
18:06:15 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
18:06:31 <pfps> action 288 doesn't make sense
Peter Patel-Schneider: ACTION-288 doesn't make sense ←
18:06:31 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 288
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - 288 ←
18:06:36 <uli> ivan
Uli Sattler: ivan ←
18:06:58 <pfps> anyone can do the fixup
Peter Patel-Schneider: anyone can do the fixup ←
18:07:12 <pfps> only a few minor problems
Peter Patel-Schneider: only a few minor problems ←
18:07:27 <bijan> approve with revisions?
approve with revisions? ←
18:07:37 <bijan> PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (11 February) (with minor clean up)
PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (11 February) (with minor clean up) ←
18:07:43 <pfps> fine by me
Peter Patel-Schneider: fine by me ←
18:07:58 <bijan> RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (11 February) (with minor clean up)
RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (11 February) (with minor clean up) ←
18:08:07 <pfps> q+
18:08:07 <bijan> zakim, mute me
zakim, mute me ←
18:08:08 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:08:11 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
18:08:27 <schneid> it was only a draft
Michael Schneider: it was only a draft ←
18:08:55 <schneid> because the action is wrong
Michael Schneider: because the action is wrong ←
18:08:57 <bijan> pfps: Action 287 is not done as written
Peter Patel-Schneider: ACTION-287 is not done as written ←
18:09:16 <bijan> alanr: We read it differently.
Alan Ruttenberg: We read it differently. ←
18:09:22 <bijan> pfps: Let's change the action text so it is done
Peter Patel-Schneider: Let's change the action text so it is done ←
18:09:23 <pfps> change action to correspond to what happened
Peter Patel-Schneider: change action to correspond to what happened ←
18:09:28 <bijan> IanH: doing it
Ian Horrocks: doing it ←
18:09:38 <bijan> Oh wait
Oh wait ←
18:09:42 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
zakim, unmute me ←
18:09:42 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
18:10:38 <pfps> there should be a pointer to the rdf:text wiki from our page
Peter Patel-Schneider: there should be a pointer to the rdf:text wiki from our page ←
18:10:59 <msmith> msmith: action 283 is partially done (the ontology header has been added), but not complete. I updated it in tracker with status and pushed the date.
Mike Smith: ACTION-283 is partially done (the ontology header has been added), but not complete. I updated it in tracker with status and pushed the date. [ Scribe Assist by Mike Smith ] ←
18:11:09 <bijan> some chatter involving the scribe wrt 278; bijan will add the new unicode reference and tell jie
some chatter involving the scribe wrt 278; bijan will add the new unicode reference and tell jie ←
18:11:10 <pfps> by the way, the action tracker is bad about interpreting IRIs - don't use (IRI)
Peter Patel-Schneider: by the way, the action tracker is bad about interpreting IRIs - don't use (IRI) ←
18:11:34 <bijan> refresh the agenda
refresh the agenda ←
18:11:40 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
zakim, unmute me ←
18:11:40 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan was not muted, bijan ←
18:11:44 <alanr> "Propose a change on the documents"
Alan Ruttenberg: "Propose a change on the documents" ←
18:12:39 <bijan> IanH: That's clarified and will be posponed
Ian Horrocks: That's clarified and will be posponed ←
18:12:49 <bijan> alanr: F2F on mon and tues...questions?
Alan Ruttenberg: F2F on mon and tues...questions? ←
18:13:10 <bijan> elisa: What about dialin?
Elisa Kendall: What about dialin? ←
18:13:17 <bijan> sandro: I'll figure that out and send instructions
Sandro Hawke: I'll figure that out and send instructions ←
18:13:38 <pfps> q+
18:13:41 <bijan> Topic: Last Call Comments
18:13:43 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
18:13:54 <uli> you?
Uli Sattler: you? ←
18:14:01 <alanr> zakim, mute me
Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, mute me ←
18:14:01 <Zakim> sorry, alanr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, alanr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←
18:14:01 <uli> i don't
Uli Sattler: i don't ←
18:14:04 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
18:14:15 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pfps (52%), Sandro (10%), IanH (4%), Ivan (18%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pfps (52%), Sandro (10%), IanH (4%), Ivan (18%) ←
18:14:48 <bijan> pfps: What about 51? Is it ready to send?
Peter Patel-Schneider: What about 51? Is it ready to send? ←
18:14:54 <schneid> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
18:14:58 <sandro> maybe ivan causing the echo.
Sandro Hawke: maybe ivan causing the echo. ←
18:14:58 <bijan> pfps: I'm not happn. I'll kill your dog.
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm not happn. I'll kill your dog. ←
18:15:04 <bijan> s/happn/happy
s/happn/happy ←
18:15:06 <IanH> It's a fair comment -- sorry.
Ian Horrocks: It's a fair comment -- sorry. ←
18:15:58 <bijan> pfps: I prepared a lot based on the agenda sent yesterday. What are we doing now? I'm very very very UPSET
Peter Patel-Schneider: I prepared a lot based on the agenda sent yesterday. What are we doing now? I'm very very very UPSET ←
18:16:14 <bijan> alanr: I don't know want to say beyond "sorry".
Alan Ruttenberg: I don't know want to say beyond "sorry". ←
18:16:24 <bijan> pfps: I suppose we muddle on as best as possible.
Peter Patel-Schneider: I suppose we muddle on as best as possible. ←
18:17:21 <bijan> pfps: Listen alanr, I am *not* happy. This is not the right way to run a working group. I expect consideration in other cases in return for my consideration here.
Peter Patel-Schneider: Listen alanr, I am *not* happy. This is not the right way to run a working group. I expect consideration in other cases in return for my consideration here. ←
18:17:31 <schneid> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
18:17:37 <schneid> zakim, unmute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
18:17:37 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should no longer be muted ←
18:17:39 <alanr> ack schneid
Alan Ruttenberg: ack schneid ←
18:18:09 <bijan> alanr: "Responses ready to send" are uncontroversial and should go out
Alan Ruttenberg: "Responses ready to send" are uncontroversial and should go out ←
18:18:22 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
18:18:22 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
18:18:33 <baojie> Sorry for being late. and I can only join IRC.
Jie Bao: Sorry for being late. and I can only join IRC. ←
18:18:41 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:18:47 <IanH> q+
Ian Horrocks: q+ ←
18:18:47 <pfps> q+
18:18:52 <bijan> schneid: I disagree esp. on mine, RMI51/1, because it's too early to send. We need to have a slight discussion.
Michael Schneider: I disagree esp. on mine, RMI51/1, because it's too early to send. We need to have a slight discussion. ←
18:19:00 <alanr> ack ianh
Alan Ruttenberg: ack ianh ←
18:19:16 <bijan> alanr: I understand that we had a discussion last week on functional properties
Alan Ruttenberg: I understand that we had a discussion last week on functional properties ←
18:19:43 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
18:19:46 <bijan> IanH: I recall deciding it last week and schneid tasked with answering it
Ian Horrocks: I recall deciding it last week and schneid tasked with answering it ←
18:19:47 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
18:20:38 <bijan> pfps: In prep for this meeting, I went through every response and judged them. This is a WG. We do work. If no one puts their hand up...it goes.
Peter Patel-Schneider: In prep for this meeting, I went through every response and judged them. This is a WG. We do work. If no one puts their hand up...it goes. ←
18:20:47 <bijan> schneid: I just wrote it yesterday
Michael Schneider: I just wrote it yesterday ←
18:20:57 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:20:59 <bijan> pfps: I read it yesterday and I touch back on the advance agenda
Peter Patel-Schneider: I read it yesterday and I touch back on the advance agenda ←
18:21:02 <schneid> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
18:21:02 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should now be muted ←
18:21:04 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
zakim, unmute me ←
18:21:04 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan was not muted, bijan ←
18:21:30 <schneid> it's fine by me in this case
Michael Schneider: it's fine by me in this case ←
18:21:35 <bijan> zakim, mute me
zakim, mute me ←
18:21:35 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:21:44 <bijan> I read it too, and it was fine
I read it too, and it was fine ←
18:21:49 <IanH> q+
Ian Horrocks: q+ ←
18:21:55 <alanr> ack ianh
Alan Ruttenberg: ack ianh ←
18:22:05 <bijan> alanr: The responses ready to send should be sent
Alan Ruttenberg: The responses ready to send should be sent ←
18:22:06 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
18:22:11 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
zakim, unmute me ←
18:22:11 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
18:22:16 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:22:59 <pfps> it's not much worse than the other wiki editing stuff - I just import into a text editor
Peter Patel-Schneider: it's not much worse than the other wiki editing stuff - I just import into a text editor ←
18:23:09 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
18:23:13 <bijan> zakim, mute me
zakim, mute me ←
18:23:13 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:23:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:23:16 <alanr> ack ivan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack ivan ←
18:23:37 <bijan> bijan: The wiki table is hard to work with, can we break up the table into smaller ones?
Bijan Parsia: The wiki table is hard to work with, can we break up the table into smaller ones? ←
18:23:52 <bijan> IanH: That seems reasonable.
Ian Horrocks: That seems reasonable. ←
18:24:16 <bijan> ivan: Where do we put pointers to long discussion threads?
Ivan Herman: Where do we put pointers to long discussion threads? ←
18:24:25 <bijan> alanr: On the response page. Column 5
Alan Ruttenberg: On the response page. Column 5 ←
18:24:37 <bijan> ivan: Ok, thanks!
Ivan Herman: Ok, thanks! ←
18:24:49 <bijan> Topic: Draft responses available for comment
18:24:55 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
18:24:55 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
18:25:04 <Zakim> -msmith
Zakim IRC Bot: -msmith ←
18:25:08 <pfps> q+
18:25:11 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
18:25:16 <bijan> alanr: There was a bug in MS4 14 which mike fixed this morning
Alan Ruttenberg: There was a bug in MS4 14 which mike fixed this morning ←
18:25:31 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MS4
Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/MS4 ←
18:25:45 <bijan> pfps: IanH sent out a message saying that the response page should be current
Peter Patel-Schneider: IanH sent out a message saying that the response page should be current ←
18:26:01 <bijan> alanr: I think there's a lag here since the change only went out this morning
Alan Ruttenberg: I think there's a lag here since the change only went out this morning ←
18:26:06 <msmith> the wiki page is the initial, incorrect reply. I will update the page now (while dialing back in)
Mike Smith: the wiki page is the initial, incorrect reply. I will update the page now (while dialing back in) ←
18:26:07 <alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2009Feb/0165.html
Alan Ruttenberg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2009Feb/0165.html ←
18:26:30 <Zakim> +msmith
Zakim IRC Bot: +msmith ←
18:27:19 <pfps> ship it
Peter Patel-Schneider: ship it ←
18:27:27 <bijan> msmith: I misunderstood. We change it. But it was a good change and I'll update the test cases
Mike Smith: I misunderstood. We change it. But it was a good change and I'll update the test cases ←
18:27:29 <bijan> ship it
ship it ←
18:27:37 <IanH> +1
Ian Horrocks: +1 ←
18:28:13 <alanr> :)
Alan Ruttenberg: :) ←
18:28:14 <bijan> alanr: So, should we have him send it or put it on the next one
Alan Ruttenberg: So, should we have him send it or put it on the next one ←
18:28:19 <bijan> He should send it
He should send it ←
18:28:21 <uli> +1
Uli Sattler: +1 ←
18:28:34 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, unmute me ←
18:28:34 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should no longer be muted ←
18:28:38 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
18:28:42 <alanr> ack ivan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack ivan ←
18:28:48 <bijan> ACTION: msmith to send response to MS4 14
ACTION: msmith to send response to MS4 14 ←
18:28:48 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - msmith
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - msmith ←
18:28:59 <Zakim> -IanH
Zakim IRC Bot: -IanH ←
18:29:01 <sandro> Ian, I heard you say "Hello" a couple of time.
Sandro Hawke: Ian, I heard you say "Hello" a couple of time. ←
18:29:03 <msmith> q+
Mike Smith: q+ ←
18:29:04 <bijan> ACTION: smith to send response to MS4 14
ACTION: smith to send response to MS4 14 ←
18:29:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-289 - Send response to MS4 14 [on Michael Smith - due 2009-02-25].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-289 - Send response to MS4 14 [on Michael Smith - due 2009-02-25]. ←
18:29:07 <alanr> ack msmith
Alan Ruttenberg: ack msmith ←
18:29:30 <bijan> ivan: Didn't we say it should be registered as a bug on OWL1?
Ivan Herman: Didn't we say it should be registered as a bug on OWL1? ←
18:29:31 <Zakim> +IanH
Zakim IRC Bot: +IanH ←
18:29:39 <bijan> msmith: No, that was ontology headers against test cases
Mike Smith: No, that was ontology headers against test cases ←
18:29:49 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←
18:30:04 <bijan> Topic: JR8 54
18:30:06 <bijan> Ship it
Ship it ←
18:30:10 <pfps> q+
18:30:15 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
18:30:28 <bijan> alanr: Peter had a concern
Alan Ruttenberg: Peter had a concern ←
18:30:58 <bijan> pfps: upon reflection, it doesn't promise anything so I'm ok with it. With a little tiny format change "including..."
Peter Patel-Schneider: upon reflection, it doesn't promise anything so I'm ok with it. With a little tiny format change "including..." ←
18:31:04 <bijan> ivan:I'm changing it as we speak
Ivan Herman: I'm changing it as we speak ←
18:31:05 <pfps> my concern is alleviated
Peter Patel-Schneider: my concern is alleviated ←
18:31:11 <bijan> ship it
ship it ←
18:31:17 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
18:31:28 <pfps> it may be that we get a "I'll wait and see" response
Peter Patel-Schneider: it may be that we get a "I'll wait and see" response ←
18:31:53 <bijan> ACTION: ivan send response to JR8 54
ACTION: ivan send response to JR8 54 ←
18:31:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-290 - Send response to JR8 54 [on Ivan Herman - due 2009-02-25].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-290 - Send response to JR8 54 [on Ivan Herman - due 2009-02-25]. ←
18:32:04 <bijan> Topic: SS1a & SS1b 26 (37)
18:32:08 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:32:09 <bijan> alanr: I like the response
Alan Ruttenberg: I like the response ←
18:32:11 <pfps> ship it :-)
Peter Patel-Schneider: ship it :-) ←
18:32:15 <bijan> ship it
ship it ←
18:32:23 <IanH> I am happy with it.
Ian Horrocks: I am happy with it. ←
18:32:25 <bijan> ivan: we had a discussion on the weekend...
Ivan Herman: we had a discussion on the weekend... ←
18:32:31 <bijan> alanr: Anything of note?
Alan Ruttenberg: Anything of note? ←
18:32:53 <bijan> ivan: read the thread! More general thing is that we need a more understandable rationale for the profiles
Ivan Herman: read the thread! More general thing is that we need a more understandable rationale for the profiles ←
18:32:55 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
18:33:13 <bijan> ...how we do this is a matter of taste so no discussion will be fruitful.
...how we do this is a matter of taste so no discussion will be fruitful. ←
18:33:16 <pfps> q+
18:33:25 <pfps> q-
18:33:28 <bijan> alanr: I hope there'll be discussion in the primer as it develops
Alan Ruttenberg: I hope there'll be discussion in the primer as it develops ←
18:33:34 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:33:37 <pfps> I'm OK adding a mention of Primer
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm OK adding a mention of Primer ←
18:33:47 <bijan> ivan: Bijan already has some text there and we can mention it to susie in the response
Ivan Herman: Bijan already has some text there and we can mention it to susie in the response ←
18:35:03 <bijan> zakim, mute me
zakim, mute me ←
18:35:03 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:35:21 <bijan> alanr: With mention of primer, good to go?
Alan Ruttenberg: With mention of primer, good to go? ←
18:35:41 <bijan> ivan: Very formal question: There were three comments. We have one mail for all three. Is this ok?
Ivan Herman: Very formal question: There were three comments. We have one mail for all three. Is this ok? ←
18:35:51 <bijan> Judgement call for each case
Judgement call for each case ←
18:35:54 <bijan> This one is ok by me
This one is ok by me ←
18:36:20 <bijan> alanr: Do you have a view about when to split? My view is that when we have distinct work to be done we should split, but here it's fine.
Alan Ruttenberg: Do you have a view about when to split? My view is that when we have distinct work to be done we should split, but here it's fine. ←
18:36:23 <bijan> ivan: Yeah, its' a ju
Ivan Herman: Yeah, its' a ju ←
18:36:35 <schneid> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
18:36:35 <bijan> s/its' a ju/it's a judgment call and here it's fine
s/its' a ju/it's a judgment call and here it's fine ←
18:36:49 <bijan> Topic: JR7 53
18:36:51 <schneid> me
Michael Schneider: me ←
18:36:52 <bijan> alanr: I found it reasonable
Alan Ruttenberg: I found it reasonable ←
18:36:55 <schneid> zakim, unmute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
18:36:55 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should no longer be muted ←
18:37:38 <bijan> schneid: I cannot accept this answer, for several reasons. This is a non-LC comment but the comment says specific things to be done.
Michael Schneider: I cannot accept this answer, for several reasons. This is a non-LC comment but the comment says specific things to be done. ←
18:37:44 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
18:37:54 <alanr> ack schneid
Alan Ruttenberg: ack schneid ←
18:38:37 <bijan> ...can we just say we'll take it at input and see you at LC for that document?
...can we just say we'll take it at input and see you at LC for that document? ←
18:39:06 <bijan> ...The *real* problem, however, is a specific sentence in this document, "It is the intention of the WG that in OWL 2 Full such importing produces semantic inconsistency, although this is not yet in the OWL 2 Full Semantics document.""
...The *real* problem, however, is a specific sentence in this document, "It is the intention of the WG that in OWL 2 Full such importing produces semantic inconsistency, although this is not yet in the OWL 2 Full Semantics document."" ←
18:39:10 <bijan> ack, me
ack, me ←
18:39:15 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:39:46 <bijan> schneid: I would like to redraft this email.
Michael Schneider: I would like to redraft this email. ←
18:39:59 <pfps> q+
18:40:00 <bijan> bijan: I'm fine with that
Bijan Parsia: I'm fine with that ←
18:40:02 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
18:40:15 <alanr> q+ alanr
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ alanr ←
18:40:32 <bijan> pfps: It is my recollection that it is the recorded intent of the working group that my sentence is right
Peter Patel-Schneider: It is my recollection that it is the recorded intent of the working group that my sentence is right ←
18:40:36 <bijan> q+ to make a point of order
q+ to make a point of order ←
18:40:50 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
18:40:50 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
18:42:05 <bijan> pfps: I believe I was recording the will of the working group in that response
Peter Patel-Schneider: I believe I was recording the will of the working group in that response ←
18:42:10 <bijan> zakim, mute me
zakim, mute me ←
18:42:10 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:42:50 <bijan> alanr: On replied to a comment on a non-lc comment: In this case, there's an interaction between an LC and non-LC document so we need to deal with it
Alan Ruttenberg: On replied to a comment on a non-lc comment: In this case, there's an interaction between an LC and non-LC document so we need to deal with it ←
18:42:51 <schneid> q+
Michael Schneider: q+ ←
18:43:03 <bijan> q-
q- ←
18:43:04 <alanr> ack alanr
Alan Ruttenberg: ack alanr ←
18:43:11 <pfps> I'm happy with Bijan's reading
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm happy with Bijan's reading ←
18:43:13 <bijan> it was left over
it was left over ←
18:43:40 <bijan> schneid: If we wait until its in LC then many things have changed. If we answer this mail now, it's pointless
Michael Schneider: If we wait until its in LC then many things have changed. If we answer this mail now, it's pointless ←
18:44:19 <bijan> alanr: I propose we start a discussion over email over it, perhaps a rediscussion, but I want to see what you propos
Alan Ruttenberg: I propose we start a discussion over email over it, perhaps a rediscussion, but I want to see what you propos ←
18:44:24 <bijan> I have a proposal on the table too!
I have a proposal on the table too! ←
18:46:03 <schneid> zakim, mute me
Michael Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
18:46:03 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: schneid should now be muted ←
18:46:06 <bijan> alanr: This one is clearly not ready to go
Alan Ruttenberg: This one is clearly not ready to go ←
18:46:32 <bijan> Topic: JR5 50
18:46:53 <bijan> alanr: No comment so it goes
Alan Ruttenberg: No comment so it goes ←
18:46:55 <pfps> q+
18:47:06 <alanr> ack schneid
Alan Ruttenberg: ack schneid ←
18:47:07 <bijan> ACTION: pfps to send out reply to JR5 50
ACTION: pfps to send out reply to JR5 50 ←
18:47:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-291 - to send out reply to JR5 50 [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2009-02-25].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-291 - to send out reply to JR5 50 [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2009-02-25]. ←
18:47:10 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
18:47:46 <bijan> pfps: LC 37 is not on the list but it's an "I agree with 26", should I respond to both?
Peter Patel-Schneider: LC 37 is not on the list but it's an "I agree with 26", should I respond to both? ←
18:47:49 <uli> this sounds like a good idea
Uli Sattler: this sounds like a good idea ←
18:48:04 <bijan> alanr: It's fine to reply to both in the same mail.
Alan Ruttenberg: It's fine to reply to both in the same mail. ←
18:48:06 <bijan> pfps: I shall do that
Peter Patel-Schneider: I shall do that ←
18:48:08 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
18:48:14 <alanr> ack ivan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack ivan ←
18:48:21 <pfps> q-
18:48:22 <schneid> schneid: I do not want to have model-theoretic semantics for owl:incompatibleWith in Full, when there are no model-theoretic semantics in the Direct Semantics
Michael Schneider: I do not want to have model-theoretic semantics for owl:incompatibleWith in Full, when there are no model-theoretic semantics in the Direct Semantics [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
18:48:33 <bijan> ivan: We agreed that we would make responses "in thread"
Ivan Herman: We agreed that we would make responses "in thread" ←
18:48:34 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
18:48:38 <bijan> ...we will break some thread
...we will break some thread ←
18:48:40 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:48:42 <pfps> ooh - OK I'll send an "extra" message pointing to the other thread
Peter Patel-Schneider: ooh - OK I'll send an "extra" message pointing to the other thread ←
18:50:25 <sandro> The question is who is going to produce the Disposition of Comments?!?!
Sandro Hawke: The question is who is going to produce the Disposition of Comments?!?! ←
18:50:48 <bijan> bijan: It's not working for me.
Bijan Parsia: It's not working for me. ←
18:50:58 <bijan> ivan: It's making it less work for me
Ivan Herman: It's making it less work for me ←
18:51:21 <bijan> sandro: it's trivial, retrieve all the [LC comment] and follow the first link
Sandro Hawke: it's trivial, retrieve all the [LC comment] and follow the first link ←
18:51:32 <bijan> Right!
Right! ←
18:51:35 <bijan> It's broken by design
It's broken by design ←
18:51:44 <bijan> No
No ←
18:51:46 <IanH> It hardly ever works properly for me in any case
Ian Horrocks: It hardly ever works properly for me in any case ←
18:52:39 <IanH> Abandon shit
Ian Horrocks: Abandon shit ←
18:52:45 <IanH> Sorry, ship
Ian Horrocks: Sorry, ship ←
18:52:45 <pfps> q+
18:52:47 <bijan> alanr: can we do "those who can should, and those who can't shouldn't|
Alan Ruttenberg: can we do "those who can should, and those who can't shouldn't| ←
18:52:50 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
18:52:56 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
18:53:13 <bijan> sandro: But we need to generate a report.
Sandro Hawke: But we need to generate a report. ←
18:53:17 <bijan> pfps: What about the table?
Peter Patel-Schneider: What about the table? ←
18:53:29 <bijan> sandro: Maybe.
Sandro Hawke: Maybe. ←
18:53:36 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:54:02 <bijan> pfps: We're even to have a pointer to the final reply
Peter Patel-Schneider: We're even to have a pointer to the final reply ←
18:54:21 <bijan> alanr: It seems like it's a lot of extra effort and if ivan signs off on it
Alan Ruttenberg: It seems like it's a lot of extra effort and if ivan signs off on it ←
18:54:46 <bijan> Topic: Responses being drafted (FYI)
18:54:54 <bijan> alanr: No need to discuss these...actions are out.
Alan Ruttenberg: No need to discuss these...actions are out. ←
18:55:05 <bijan> Topic: Comments that may require policy decisions
18:55:18 <bijan> Topic: FH2 28, SWD1
18:55:30 <bijan> alanr: Ian has a proposal in an email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2009Feb/0006.html
Alan Ruttenberg: Ian has a proposal in an email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2009Feb/0006.html ←
18:56:04 <bijan> alanr: One proposal is to audit the documents to use OWLDL/Full as appropriate and other terms
Alan Ruttenberg: One proposal is to audit the documents to use OWLDL/Full as appropriate and other terms ←
18:56:24 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:56:31 <IanH> q+
Ian Horrocks: q+ ←
18:56:33 <pfps> q+
18:56:34 <bijan> ...In order to address the needs of several communities we make the multiple syntaxes available across all documents
...In order to address the needs of several communities we make the multiple syntaxes available across all documents ←
18:56:35 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
18:56:36 <alanr> ack ianh
Alan Ruttenberg: ack ianh ←
18:56:53 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
18:56:55 <pfps> I'm happy with the "name" one
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm happy with the "name" one ←
18:56:58 <ewallace> +1 on Ian's impression
Evan Wallace: +1 on Ian's impression ←
18:57:01 <bijan> IanH: I think, from last week, everyone seemed on board. It was down to implementation
Ian Horrocks: I think, from last week, everyone seemed on board. It was down to implementation ←
18:57:06 <ivan> +1 to IanH
Ivan Herman: +1 to IanH ←
18:57:21 <bijan> pfps: I'mhappy with the "name" one but not so much about every syntax everywhere
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'mhappy with the "name" one but not so much about every syntax everywhere ←
18:58:32 <bijan> alanr: In the chairs meeting, we wanted to generate a "unified view of owl". Where there are distinctions, we should highlight it. Where there are no-distinctions, we should avoid any impressions that there are.
Alan Ruttenberg: In the chairs meeting, we wanted to generate a "unified view of owl". Where there are distinctions, we should highlight it. Where there are no-distinctions, we should avoid any impressions that there are. ←
18:58:38 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
zakim, unmute me ←
18:58:38 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan was not muted, bijan ←
18:58:41 <pfps> q+
18:58:46 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:58:56 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
19:00:01 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
19:00:17 <bijan> pfps: I'm not even prepared to discuss this topic today. It's not on the agenda at all.
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm not even prepared to discuss this topic today. It's not on the agenda at all. ←
19:00:51 <alanr> ack ivan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack ivan ←
19:00:59 <bijan> ...I'm not comfortable discussing these together, at all. Why are we discussing them?
...I'm not comfortable discussing these together, at all. Why are we discussing them? ←
19:01:21 <bijan> ivan: An answer to bijan: in my mind, I only had the functional syntax in mind.
Ivan Herman: An answer to bijan: in my mind, I only had the functional syntax in mind. ←
19:01:29 <pfps> q+
19:01:41 <bijan> ...The syntax is the key one. (And the primer). The quick ref has it already.
...The syntax is the key one. (And the primer). The quick ref has it already. ←
19:02:42 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
19:02:50 <bijan> ...It's good to try to make the Syntax document as the description of the language "as a whole" which might result from a name change, this would require multiple syntax
...It's good to try to make the Syntax document as the description of the language "as a whole" which might result from a name change, this would require multiple syntax ←
19:03:08 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
19:03:19 <bijan> pfps: What I recall from the FS, it could be the *most* harmed by multiple syntaxes. It's big; it has a grammar...ouch.
Peter Patel-Schneider: What I recall from the FS, it could be the *most* harmed by multiple syntaxes. It's big; it has a grammar...ouch. ←
19:03:25 <bijan> ...It could kill it hard!
...It could kill it hard! ←
19:03:26 <alanr> ack ivan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack ivan ←
19:03:44 <bijan> ivan: We already have the mechanism in that document to hide or show the examples. We can use that along the lines of the primer
Ivan Herman: We already have the mechanism in that document to hide or show the examples. We can use that along the lines of the primer ←
19:03:48 <pfps> q+
19:04:05 <pfps> q-
19:04:09 <bijan> alanr: Let's stop it here and pick it up at the F2F
Alan Ruttenberg: Let's stop it here and pick it up at the F2F ←
19:04:50 <bijan> alanr: What I hear is that a least on the naming we have agreement to move forward. Boris has suggested that he wants to make a lot of changes all at once
Alan Ruttenberg: What I hear is that a least on the naming we have agreement to move forward. Boris has suggested that he wants to make a lot of changes all at once ←
19:04:50 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
19:04:54 <pfps> q+
19:04:59 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
19:05:00 <bmotik> +q
Boris Motik: +q ←
19:05:04 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, unmute me ←
19:05:04 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should no longer be muted ←
19:05:14 <pfps> q-
19:05:26 <alanr> scrupulososity :)
Alan Ruttenberg: scrupulososity :) ←
19:05:52 <alanr> ack bmotik
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bmotik ←
19:06:13 <bijan> bijan: Let's not do so much work for such little gain over an editorial point
Bijan Parsia: Let's not do so much work for such little gain over an editorial point ←
19:06:34 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
19:06:34 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
19:06:43 <bijan> bmotik: I find it very difficult to produce exact diffs. I don't think it's so valuable and its a huge amount of work.
Boris Motik: I find it very difficult to produce exact diffs. I don't think it's so valuable and its a huge amount of work. ←
19:06:53 <bmotik> +q
Boris Motik: +q ←
19:07:05 <bijan> alanr: I'll give up if no one else supports it, but it doesn't seem so hard
Alan Ruttenberg: I'll give up if no one else supports it, but it doesn't seem so hard ←
19:07:09 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
19:07:11 <alanr> ack bmotik
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bmotik ←
19:07:12 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, unmute me ←
19:07:12 <Zakim> bmotik was not muted, bmotik
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik was not muted, bmotik ←
19:07:29 <bijan> bmotik: When you are editing, it's very hard to keep focus on this piece of work.
Boris Motik: When you are editing, it's very hard to keep focus on this piece of work. ←
19:07:35 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
19:07:35 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
19:07:38 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
19:08:11 <bijan> bijan: it's more work than you think; it's not our style; other things need our attention
Bijan Parsia: it's more work than you think; it's not our style; other things need our attention ←
19:08:17 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
19:09:13 <alanr> ack sandro
Alan Ruttenberg: ack sandro ←
19:10:20 <bijan> some exchange between sandro and bijan about it
some exchange between sandro and bijan about it ←
19:10:45 <bijan> alanr: I'm going to discuss this with the chairs to determine the appropriate burden
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm going to discuss this with the chairs to determine the appropriate burden ←
19:10:50 <sandro> sandro: Is it really a problem to make all the edits involved in a particular compound change in a period of time separate from all other changes?
Sandro Hawke: Is it really a problem to make all the edits involved in a particular compound change in a period of time separate from all other changes? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:10:53 <sandro> bijan: YES!
Bijan Parsia: YES! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:11:04 <bijan> Topic: BP2 40 (Redesign XML syntax)
19:12:31 <pfps> bijan wants to change the schema to help in querying the dom model of documents
Peter Patel-Schneider: bijan wants to change the schema to help in querying the dom model of documents ←
19:12:44 <sandro> Bijan: This change does not affect the set of legal documents -- it only changes how the schema is written, to add more info into the PSVI.
Bijan Parsia: This change does not affect the set of legal documents -- it only changes how the schema is written, to add more info into the PSVI. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:13:06 <pfps> q+
19:13:11 <alanr> ack pfps
Alan Ruttenberg: ack pfps ←
19:13:15 <bijan> alanr: My only concern is that we already have a some tension with the XML syntax with people pushing back on it
Alan Ruttenberg: My only concern is that we already have a some tension with the XML syntax with people pushing back on it ←
19:14:10 <bijan> pfps: There's good use and bad use of xml schema. Bijan is proposal to make it good! We have comments from some people against XML, but even understanding their world view I don't undertand their comments
Peter Patel-Schneider: There's good use and bad use of xml schema. Bijan is proposal to make it good! We have comments from some people against XML, but even understanding their world view I don't undertand their comments ←
19:14:11 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
19:14:36 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
19:14:41 <sandro> +1 in principal, yes, making the schema nicer is a good thing.
Sandro Hawke: +1 in principal, yes, making the schema nicer is a good thing. ←
19:14:55 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
19:16:02 <alanr> ack ivan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack ivan ←
19:16:23 <bijan> ...If it improves the schema with out changing the set of legal documents, go for it. But it's up to Bijan to show this.
...If it improves the schema with out changing the set of legal documents, go for it. But it's up to Bijan to show this. ←
19:16:42 <uli> ?
Uli Sattler: ? ←
19:16:46 <bijan> ivan: These are separate issues. Even if we make it a note, we still want the document to be as good as possible!
Ivan Herman: These are separate issues. Even if we make it a note, we still want the document to be as good as possible! ←
19:16:59 <bijan> alanr: I'm hearing support and no objections
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm hearing support and no objections ←
19:17:20 <ewallace> me/ Go Bijan, go!
Evan Wallace: me/ Go Bijan, go! ←
19:18:15 <sandro> Bijan, I'd be interested in the technical details of what you're doing with schema, if you want someone to bounce ideas off of.
Sandro Hawke: Bijan, I'd be interested in the technical details of what you're doing with schema, if you want someone to bounce ideas off of. ←
19:18:18 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
19:18:18 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
19:18:27 <bijan> sandro: yay! I'll send you my stuff
Sandro Hawke: yay! I'll send you my stuff ←
19:18:38 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:18:44 <Zakim> -Alan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Alan ←
19:18:51 <alanr> caling back in.
Alan Ruttenberg: caling back in. ←
19:19:12 <alanr> yes
Alan Ruttenberg: yes ←
19:19:22 <bijan> Topic: RIF1 24 (Disjoint numeric datatypes)
19:19:30 <Zakim> +Alan_Ruttenberg
Zakim IRC Bot: +Alan_Ruttenberg ←
19:19:32 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:19:44 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:20:02 <ivan> :-) :-)
Ivan Herman: :-) :-) ←
19:20:06 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:20:14 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
19:20:19 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
19:20:22 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
19:20:25 <pfps> I don't care (anymore)
Peter Patel-Schneider: I don't care (anymore) ←
19:20:33 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
19:20:34 <bijan> bijan: I think we should make them disjoint
Bijan Parsia: I think we should make them disjoint ←
19:20:45 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:20:53 <bijan> alanr: Disjointness is not the desired goal of RIF.
Alan Ruttenberg: Disjointness is not the desired goal of RIF. ←
19:21:14 <sandro> alan: the goal in RIF was be able to use existing software for datatype handling.
Alan Ruttenberg: the goal in RIF was be able to use existing software for datatype handling. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:21:26 <bijan> ...They want to use the numeric operators. There's a problem with numeric operators without disjointness. So we have a deeper issue.
...They want to use the numeric operators. There's a problem with numeric operators without disjointness. So we have a deeper issue. ←
19:21:41 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:21:41 <bijan> ...It's probably not going to end well for RIF.
...It's probably not going to end well for RIF. ←
19:21:43 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
19:21:44 <pfps> q+
19:22:08 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
19:22:52 <IanH> ack pfps
Ian Horrocks: ack pfps ←
19:23:03 <bijan> ...It doesn't address the rif document, it's just Bijan pushing an agenda
...It doesn't address the rif document, it's just Bijan pushing an agenda ←
19:23:40 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:23:45 <bijan> pfps: It's not that RIF is using these operators, it's that they want to use imprecise inputs. If they gave that up, everything would be better and it would fit in with the stuff in OWL
Peter Patel-Schneider: It's not that RIF is using these operators, it's that they want to use imprecise inputs. If they gave that up, everything would be better and it would fit in with the stuff in OWL ←
19:24:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:24:19 <bijan> ...That's one reason. The other reason is that XPath is broken. Perhaps we should protest bad decisions. Promoting from decimal to float is nuts.
...That's one reason. The other reason is that XPath is broken. Perhaps we should protest bad decisions. Promoting from decimal to float is nuts. ←
19:24:32 <pfps> q-
19:24:41 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:24:42 <bijan> alanr: I'd like to complain about XPath
Alan Ruttenberg: I'd like to complain about XPath ←
19:24:57 <bijan> IanH: We shouldn't entangle ourself with RIF's problems. We have our own problems.
Ian Horrocks: We shouldn't entangle ourself with RIF's problems. We have our own problems. ←
19:25:04 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
19:25:15 <bijan> alanr: We should let RIF got its own way.
Alan Ruttenberg: We should let RIF got its own way. ←
19:25:18 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:25:20 <IanH> ack ivan
Ian Horrocks: ack ivan ←
19:25:36 <bijan> IanH: Bijan says we should revisit the design on the merits.
Ian Horrocks: Bijan says we should revisit the design on the merits. ←
19:25:52 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:26:00 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
19:26:01 <bijan> ivan: +1 to Bijan. And while there might be problems with full compatibility with RIF, but anything we *can* do we should do.
Ivan Herman: +1 to Bijan. And while there might be problems with full compatibility with RIF, but anything we *can* do we should do. ←
19:26:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:27:19 <bijan> alanr: I'm not sure it gets us anywhere. We don't have the same model.
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm not sure it gets us anywhere. We don't have the same model. ←
19:27:20 <bijan> q+
q+ ←
19:27:20 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:27:25 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
19:27:39 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
19:27:52 <sandro> Alan: I don't see how this solves any problem RIF has, so I oppose it.
Alan Ruttenberg: I don't see how this solves any problem RIF has, so I oppose it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:27:56 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
19:27:57 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:28:13 <bmotik> q+
Boris Motik: q+ ←
19:28:24 <alanr> I think we should focus on current issues, not revisit old ones
Alan Ruttenberg: I think we should focus on current issues, not revisit old ones ←
19:28:31 <sandro> Bijan: It does get it CLOSER to RIF and XSD, and I think it's how the OWL implementors will want things.
Bijan Parsia: It does get it CLOSER to RIF and XSD, and I think it's how the OWL implementors will want things. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:28:35 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, unmute me ←
19:28:35 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should no longer be muted ←
19:28:43 <IanH> ack ivan
Ian Horrocks: ack ivan ←
19:29:13 <alanr> rif will lose on equal because of implementation dependant rounding in xpath!
Alan Ruttenberg: rif will lose on equal because of implementation dependant rounding in xpath! ←
19:29:15 <bijan> ivan: A very simple case is just the question of equality. RIF wants to look at things being equal. So does out. We give two different answers. This is nuts.
Ivan Herman: A very simple case is just the question of equality. RIF wants to look at things being equal. So does out. We give two different answers. This is nuts. ←
19:29:17 <sandro> Ivan: simple case: equality. should OWL and RIF give different answers about whether things are equal?
Ivan Herman: simple case: equality. should OWL and RIF give different answers about whether things are equal? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:29:19 <IanH> ack bmotik
Ian Horrocks: ack bmotik ←
19:29:21 <alanr> they have already lost!
Alan Ruttenberg: they have already lost! ←
19:29:22 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:29:25 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
19:29:47 <ivan> +1 to boris
Ivan Herman: +1 to boris ←
19:29:48 <alanr> it is completely clear
Alan Ruttenberg: it is completely clear ←
19:29:57 <sandro> boris: There is a pressing implementation burden. I'm not sure our implementation in hermit is correct -- complaring floats and ints -- I don't know if we got it right.
Boris Motik: There is a pressing implementation burden. I'm not sure our implementation in hermit is correct -- complaring floats and ints -- I don't know if we got it right. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:30:00 <bijan> bmotik: I really sympathize with Bijan's point of view and it was very hard to implement, and I'm not sure our implementation is correct. There are lots of problems.
Boris Motik: I really sympathize with Bijan's point of view and it was very hard to implement, and I'm not sure our implementation is correct. There are lots of problems. ←
19:30:20 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:30:21 <pfps> if we change to disjoint, we should be careful to tell RIF why
Peter Patel-Schneider: if we change to disjoint, we should be careful to tell RIF why ←
19:30:28 <alanr> if you think doing this is hard, try working with the actual XML specs
Alan Ruttenberg: if you think doing this is hard, try working with the actual XML specs ←
19:30:33 <bijan> ...I suggested it in the first place. Well, I was hoping to eliminate floats, because they are hairy.
...I suggested it in the first place. Well, I was hoping to eliminate floats, because they are hairy. ←
19:30:37 <sandro> boris: From an implementation point of view, there is a real problem here. At first, I wanted to get rid of floats, because they are hairy, but I don't see how to do that any more.
Boris Motik: From an implementation point of view, there is a real problem here. At first, I wanted to get rid of floats, because they are hairy, but I don't see how to do that any more. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:30:47 <IanH> STRAWPOLL: numeric datatypes should be disjoint
STRAWPOLL: numeric datatypes should be disjoint ←
19:30:50 <bijan> I work with them all the time. I'm teaching a class on them. I comment on them
I work with them all the time. I'm teaching a class on them. I comment on them ←
19:30:51 <bijan> +Q
+Q ←
19:30:54 <bijan> +1
+1 ←
19:30:55 <alanr> -1
Alan Ruttenberg: -1 ←
19:30:58 <bijan> qq-
qq- ←
19:30:58 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: disjoint (like XSD) or non-disjoint
STRAWPOLL: disjoint (like XSD) or non-disjoint ←
19:30:59 <bijan> q-
q- ←
19:30:59 <ewallace> +1
Evan Wallace: +1 ←
19:31:00 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
19:31:01 <bijan> +1
+1 ←
19:31:02 <uli> undecided
Uli Sattler: undecided ←
19:31:03 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
19:31:04 <Bernardo> +1
19:31:07 <MarkusK_> +1
Markus Krötzsch: +1 ←
19:31:07 <Zhe> undecided
19:31:08 <pfps> +0.x for some x > 3
Peter Patel-Schneider: +0.x for some x > 3 ←
19:31:08 <schneid> 0
19:31:11 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
19:31:43 <uli> bye
Uli Sattler: bye ←
19:31:46 <zimmer> 0
19:31:49 <Zakim> -uli
Zakim IRC Bot: -uli ←
19:31:50 <Zakim> -msmith
Zakim IRC Bot: -msmith ←
19:31:52 <MarkusK_> bye
Markus Krötzsch: bye ←
19:31:52 <Zakim> -bijan
Zakim IRC Bot: -bijan ←
19:31:53 <Zakim> -Bernardo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Bernardo ←
19:31:57 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
19:31:59 <Zakim> -MarkusK_
Zakim IRC Bot: -MarkusK_ ←
19:31:59 <ratnesh> bye
Ratnesh Sahay: bye ←
19:31:59 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
Zakim IRC Bot: -Evan_Wallace ←
19:32:01 <Zakim> -pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps ←
19:32:01 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
19:32:02 <zimmer> bye
Antoine Zimmermann: bye ←
19:32:02 <Zakim> -[IBM]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IBM] ←
19:32:02 <Zakim> -bmotik
Zakim IRC Bot: -bmotik ←
19:32:04 <Zakim> -Alan_Ruttenberg
Zakim IRC Bot: -Alan_Ruttenberg ←
19:32:05 <Zakim> -IanH
Zakim IRC Bot: -IanH ←
19:32:06 <Zakim> -ratnesh
Zakim IRC Bot: -ratnesh ←
19:32:06 <bijan> I take it that the minutes will show up somewhere for me to edit?
I take it that the minutes will show up somewhere for me to edit? ←
19:32:09 <Zakim> -schneid
Zakim IRC Bot: -schneid ←
19:32:56 <Zakim> -Zhe
Zakim IRC Bot: -Zhe ←
19:32:57 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended ←
19:32:58 <Zakim> Attendees were bijan, MarkusK_, Alan, ratnesh, bmotik, pfps, [IBM], Sandro, IanH, msmith, Elisa_Kendall, Zhe, Ivan, Bernardo, uli, schneid, Evan_Wallace, Alan_Ruttenberg
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were bijan, MarkusK_, Alan, ratnesh, bmotik, pfps, [IBM], Sandro, IanH, msmith, Elisa_Kendall, Zhe, Ivan, Bernardo, uli, schneid, Evan_Wallace, Alan_Ruttenberg ←
19:32:59 <IanH> Not necessarily
Ian Horrocks: Not necessarily ←
19:33:17 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public
Ian Horrocks: RRSAgent, make records public ←
19:33:23 <bijan> RRSAgent pointer
RRSAgent pointer ←
19:33:30 <bijan> I made them public earlier
I made them public earlier ←
19:33:35 <bijan> rrsagent, pointer
rrsagent, pointer ←
19:33:35 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-owl-irc#T19-33-35
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-owl-irc#T19-33-35 ←
19:33:44 <IanH> OK -- see http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Scribe_Conventions
Ian Horrocks: OK -- see http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Scribe_Conventions ←
19:33:54 <IanH> That tells you how to process them
Ian Horrocks: That tells you how to process them ←
19:33:57 <bijan> New fangled style minutes
New fangled style minutes ←
19:34:00 <IanH> May the force be with you
Ian Horrocks: May the force be with you ←
19:34:29 <bijan> Oh jeezus
Oh jeezus ←
19:36:22 <MartinD> MartinD has left #OWL
Martin Dzbor: MartinD has left #OWL ←
This revision (#1) generated 2009-03-02 16:29:04 UTC by 'ihorrock2', comments: None