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00:00:00 <sandro> PRESENT: Ian, Boris, pfps, Bernardo, Sandro, MarkusK, m_schnei, Achille, Bijan, Evan, Christine, Rinke, Ivan
00:00:00 <sandro> Observers: Henson_Graves, Jeremy_Carroll
00:00:00 <sandro> Remote: Elisa_Kendall, Zhe
06:55:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-owl-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-owl-irc ←
06:56:07 <pfps> Zakim, this will be owlwg
Peter Patel-Schneider: Zakim, this will be owlwg ←
06:56:07 <Zakim> ok, pfps; I see SW_OWL(F2F)2:30AM scheduled to start 26 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pfps; I see SW_OWL(F2F)2:30AM scheduled to start 26 minutes ago ←
06:56:21 <pfps> RRSAgent, make records public
Peter Patel-Schneider: RRSAgent, make records public ←
06:56:33 <pfps> ScribeNick: pfps
(Scribe set to Peter Patel-Schneider)
06:56:59 <pfps> elisa?
elisa? ←
06:58:12 <Zakim> SW_OWL(F2F)2:30AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL(F2F)2:30AM has now started ←
06:58:19 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←
06:58:25 <Elisa> hi
Elisa Kendall: hi ←
07:07:40 <pfps> IanH: Welcome (to ...)
(No events recorded for 9 minutes)
Ian Horrocks: Welcome (to ...) ←
07:07:51 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is here? ←
07:07:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall ←
07:07:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkusK_, sandro, bcueencagrau, IanH, Elisa, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, ivan, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see MarkusK_, sandro, bcueencagrau, IanH, Elisa, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, ivan, trackbot ←
07:12:49 <sandro> zakim, call Riviera_B
Sandro Hawke: zakim, call Riviera_B ←
07:12:49 <Zakim> ok, sandro; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; the call is being made ←
07:12:51 <Zakim> +Riviera_B
Zakim IRC Bot: +Riviera_B ←
07:14:09 <pfps> Sandro: nothing on local arrangement
Sandro Hawke: nothing on local arrangement ←
07:14:30 <pfps> IanH: introductions
Ian Horrocks: introductions ←
07:14:40 <pfps> ...: Hi, I'm me
...: Hi, I'm me ←
07:14:42 <ivan> zakim, dial Riviera_B
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial Riviera_B ←
07:14:42 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
07:14:43 <Zakim> +Riviera_B.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +Riviera_B.a ←
07:15:51 <pfps> Observers - Henson Graves, Jeremy Carroll
Observers - Henson Graves, Jeremy Carroll ←
07:16:41 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Timeline
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Timeline ←
07:16:42 <pfps> IanH: Timeline (follow link in agenda)
Ian Horrocks: Timeline (follow link in agenda) ←
07:17:13 <pfps> IanH: I put a real timeine (not T0+)
Ian Horrocks: I put a real timeine (not T0+) ←
07:17:38 <pfps> IanH: We are about 2 months behind the scheduled time for Last Call
Ian Horrocks: We are about 2 months behind the scheduled time for Last Call ←
07:17:53 <pfps> IanH: It thus would be good to move forward with due haste
Ian Horrocks: It thus would be good to move forward with due haste ←
07:18:43 <pfps> Bijan: The schedule was designed to be aggressive (but with a bit of slack)
Bijan Parsia: The schedule was designed to be aggressive (but with a bit of slack) ←
07:18:56 <pfps> Sandro: The slack is ... two months
Sandro Hawke: The slack is ... two months ←
07:19:09 <pfps> Topic: Document Status
07:19:19 <pfps> Polycom: Beep
Scribe problem: the name 'Polycom' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Bernardo Cuenca Grau Sandro Hawke Markus Krötzsch Michael Schneider Achille Fokoue Bijan Parsia Evan Wallace Christine Golbreich Rinke Hoekstra Ivan Herman Elisa Kendall Zhe Wu Henson Graves Jeremy Carroll Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown Polycom: Beep ←
07:19:34 <pfps> IanH: This section is intended as a review
Ian Horrocks: This section is intended as a review ←
07:19:45 <pfps> IanH: Can the editors say the status
Ian Horrocks: Can the editors say the status ←
07:19:45 <Zakim> -Riviera_B.a
Zakim IRC Bot: -Riviera_B.a ←
07:19:49 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
07:19:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall, Riviera_B
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall, Riviera_B ←
07:20:23 <pfps> Boris: Syntax is up to date - there are some issues that will impact it
Boris Motik: Syntax is up to date - there are some issues that will impact it ←
07:20:42 <pfps> IanH: There has been internal review (for last PWD)
Ian Horrocks: There has been internal review (for last PWD) ←
07:20:47 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:20:55 <pfps> Ivan: There has been no major external comments
Ivan Herman: There has been no major external comments ←
07:21:03 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
07:21:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall, Riviera_B
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall, Riviera_B ←
07:21:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see bmotik, m_schnei, wallace, MarkusK_, sandro, bcueencagrau, IanH, Elisa, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, ivan, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bmotik, m_schnei, wallace, MarkusK_, sandro, bcueencagrau, IanH, Elisa, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, ivan, trackbot ←
07:21:09 <pfps> Bijan: Does current syntax document meet Evan's needs
Bijan Parsia: Does current syntax document meet Evan's needs ←
07:21:29 <pfps> Evan: Way better than it was - usable - not great because of organization
Evan Wallace: Way better than it was - usable - not great because of organization ←
07:22:00 <pfps> Evan: Reorganization is currently for the spec/implementation, not users
Evan Wallace: Reorganization is currently for the spec/implementation, not users ←
07:22:15 <pfps> Bijan: Not explicitly - we did have discussions on the order
Bijan Parsia: Not explicitly - we did have discussions on the order ←
07:22:29 <pfps> s/Reorganization/Organization
s/Reorganization/Organization ←
07:22:46 <pfps> Bijan: There are various organizations of reference docs in the literature
Bijan Parsia: There are various organizations of reference docs in the literature ←
07:22:59 <pfps> Boris: Currently Syntax is a *reference* document
Boris Motik: Currently Syntax is a *reference* document ←
07:23:34 <pfps> Evan: Quick Reference Guide could be used as an index
Evan Wallace: Quick Reference Guide could be used as an index ←
07:23:47 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:24:04 <pfps> Bijan: Primer can serve as another "index"
Bijan Parsia: Primer can serve as another "index" ←
07:24:42 <pfps> Bijan: Three "indexes" - ToC, QRG, Primer
Bijan Parsia: Three "indexes" - ToC, QRG, Primer ←
07:24:50 <Zakim> + +1.978.692.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.978.692.aaaa ←
07:24:57 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:25:05 <pfps> Evan: The problem is using it as a reference
Evan Wallace: The problem is using it as a reference ←
07:25:13 <Zhe> zakim, +1.978.692.aaaa is me
Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.978.692.aaaa is me ←
07:25:13 <pfps> Evan: The ordering is wrong
Evan Wallace: The ordering is wrong ←
07:25:13 <Zakim> +Zhe; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Zhe; got it ←
07:25:19 <pfps> Boris: What is needed?
Boris Motik: What is needed? ←
07:25:20 <IanH> Hello Zhe!
Ian Horrocks: Hello Zhe! ←
07:25:25 <Zhe> zakim, mute me
07:25:25 <Zakim> Zhe should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Zhe should now be muted ←
07:25:28 <Zhe> Hi Ian!
07:25:41 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:25:48 <pfps> Evan: Things related to object properties grouped together
Evan Wallace: Things related to object properties grouped together ←
07:26:11 <pfps> Boris: But what about domain axioms - they are related to both classes and object properties
Boris Motik: But what about domain axioms - they are related to both classes and object properties ←
07:27:41 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:27:41 <pfps> Christine: What is under discussion now?
Christine Golbreich: What is under discussion now? ←
07:28:09 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:28:11 <pfps> Bijan: We are now discussing the Syntax document - but are also pulling in relationships to other documents
Bijan Parsia: We are now discussing the Syntax document - but are also pulling in relationships to other documents ←
07:28:47 <pfps> Bijan: Old reference has informal discussions, which are not in the QRG
Bijan Parsia: Old reference has informal discussions, which are not in the QRG ←
07:29:04 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:29:11 <pfps> IanH: A complete redesign of Syntax is a major effort
Ian Horrocks: A complete redesign of Syntax is a major effort ←
07:29:39 <pfps> Evan: A complete redesign is not in the cards
Evan Wallace: A complete redesign is not in the cards ←
07:30:00 <sandro> Evan: I'm fine with using the Quick Reference Guide as the index to Syntax.
Evan Wallace: I'm fine with using the Quick Reference Guide as the index to Syntax. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
07:30:05 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:30:06 <pfps> Evan: A reference index is needed - either QRG or part of the document
Evan Wallace: A reference index is needed - either QRG or part of the document ←
07:30:40 <pfps> IanH: OK, syntax is in pretty good shape, modulo outstanding issues and perhaps an index
Ian Horrocks: OK, syntax is in pretty good shape, modulo outstanding issues and perhaps an index ←
07:30:49 <pfps> SubTopic: Semantics Document
07:30:59 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:31:13 <pfps> Boris: Similar status to syntax - up to date - outstanding issues may need changes
Boris Motik: Similar status to syntax - up to date - outstanding issues may need changes ←
07:31:38 <sandro> pfps: It's our contention that the Direct Semantics current correctly describes the meaning of OWL.
Peter Patel-Schneider: It's our contention that the Direct Semantics current correctly describes the meaning of OWL. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
07:32:02 <sandro> ian; Finished, modulo outstanding issues.
Sandro Hawke: ian; Finished, modulo outstanding issues. ←
07:32:05 <pfps> SubTopic: RDF Semantics
07:32:06 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:32:15 <pfps> Michael: RDF Semantics is a bit behind
Michael Schneider: RDF Semantics is a bit behind ←
07:32:18 <sandro> s/ian;/ian:/
Sandro Hawke: s/ian;/ian:/ ←
07:32:30 <pfps> Michael: There are a couple of minor things that need to be added
Michael Schneider: There are a couple of minor things that need to be added ←
07:32:43 <pfps> Michael: The two documents are structurally aligned
Michael Schneider: The two documents are structurally aligned ←
07:33:31 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:33:44 <pfps> Michael: Outstanding issues - correspondence theorem, test cases that exercise rdf semantics
Michael Schneider: Outstanding issues - correspondence theorem, test cases that exercise rdf semantics ←
07:33:51 <sandro> m_schnei: the correspondence theorem proof still needs work.
Michael Schneider: the correspondence theorem proof still needs work. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
07:34:10 <pfps> Bijan: Do we believe that the theorem is correct - if so then we should be able to go to last call - if not then we need to worry
Bijan Parsia: Do we believe that the theorem is correct - if so then we should be able to go to last call - if not then we need to worry ←
07:34:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:34:32 <pfps> Michael: I believe the theorem and that it is a good as we can get
Michael Schneider: I believe the theorem and that it is a good as we can get ←
07:34:55 <sandro> bijan: Are any proof errors such that the language would have to change?
Bijan Parsia: Are any proof errors such that the language would have to change? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
07:35:00 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:35:05 <sandro> m_schnei: I don't think the language will have to change.
Michael Schneider: I don't think the language will have to change. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
07:35:28 <pfps> Bijan: Do you think that the semantics is OK
Bijan Parsia: Do you think that the semantics is OK ←
07:35:35 <pfps> Michael: 95 per cent
Michael Schneider: 95 per cent ←
07:35:56 <pfps> Subtopic: Conformance and Test Cases
07:36:07 <pfps> IanH: This could be more contentious
Ian Horrocks: This could be more contentious ←
07:36:15 <pfps> Ivan: We need more test cases
Ivan Herman: We need more test cases ←
07:36:34 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:36:42 <pfps> IanH: Mike Smith wants to participate
Ian Horrocks: Mike Smith wants to participate ←
07:37:00 <pfps> Bijan: When I wanted to submit test cases the structure wasn't redy
Bijan Parsia: When I wanted to submit test cases the structure wasn't redy ←
07:37:12 <pfps> Ivan: What is the experience of the OWL 1 test cases
Ivan Herman: What is the experience of the OWL 1 test cases ←
07:37:47 <pfps> Bijan: They are great, much better than before, they help a lot in checking initial part of implementation
Bijan Parsia: They are great, much better than before, they help a lot in checking initial part of implementation ←
07:38:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:38:16 <pfps> Markus: Most OWL 1 test cases have been copied over
Markus Krötzsch: Most OWL 1 test cases have been copied over ←
07:38:35 <pfps> Ivan: We might only need tests for the new features
Ivan Herman: We might only need tests for the new features ←
07:38:49 <pfps> Bijan: We could do more, but getting to the OWL 1 level is adequate
Bijan Parsia: We could do more, but getting to the OWL 1 level is adequate ←
07:39:17 <pfps> IanH: There was also fitting into Lite, DL, Full, so the tests need to be remarked
Ian Horrocks: There was also fitting into Lite, DL, Full, so the tests need to be remarked ←
07:39:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:39:44 <pfps> IanH: We also probably need test cases to check the boundaries of the profiles
Ian Horrocks: We also probably need test cases to check the boundaries of the profiles ←
07:39:46 <MarkusK_> Test cases http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test_cases
Markus Krötzsch: Test cases http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test_cases ←
07:40:08 <MarkusK_> This page contains links to lists showing all test cases, by various criteria
Markus Krötzsch: This page contains links to lists showing all test cases, by various criteria ←
07:40:59 <pfps> Pfps: What about the status of T&C itself
Peter Patel-Schneider: What about the status of T&C itself ←
07:41:09 <pfps> Bijan: We will ask for tests at OWLED
Bijan Parsia: We will ask for tests at OWLED ←
07:41:22 <pfps> Ivan: We need test cases ready for CR
Ivan Herman: We need test cases ready for CR ←
07:41:41 <pfps> Bijan: Not so - test cases could come out of CR - we need a reasonable set going in
Bijan Parsia: Not so - test cases could come out of CR - we need a reasonable set going in ←
07:41:45 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:42:23 <pfps> Jeremy: OWL 1 test cases lagged going into LC by two months
Jeremy Carroll: OWL 1 test cases lagged going into LC by two months ←
07:42:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:42:55 <pfps> Sandro: At some time there has to be a set of approved test cases
Sandro Hawke: At some time there has to be a set of approved test cases ←
07:43:10 <pfps> IanH: Mike Smith wants a process for approving new test cases
Ian Horrocks: Mike Smith wants a process for approving new test cases ←
07:43:27 <pfps> Sandro: Initially by hand, then we can use implementations to help approval process
Sandro Hawke: Initially by hand, then we can use implementations to help approval process ←
07:43:51 <pfps> Jeremy: OWL 1 document included the process for approving test cases
Jeremy Carroll: OWL 1 document included the process for approving test cases ←
07:44:20 <pfps> IanH: Conformance part has been approved - and has no outstanding issues
Ian Horrocks: Conformance part has been approved - and has no outstanding issues ←
07:44:32 <pfps> Subtopic: RDF Mapping
07:44:39 <pfps> IanH: What about RDF Mapping?
Ian Horrocks: What about RDF Mapping? ←
07:45:10 <pfps> Boris: Same status as Syntax and Semantics - up to date - some outstanding issues
Boris Motik: Same status as Syntax and Semantics - up to date - some outstanding issues ←
07:45:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:46:13 <pfps> Ivan: Looking at the QRG there appear to be some mismatches between functional and RDF syntaxes
Ivan Herman: Looking at the QRG there appear to be some mismatches between functional and RDF syntaxes ←
07:47:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:47:27 <pfps> Boris: There are reasons for some of the mismatches
Boris Motik: There are reasons for some of the mismatches ←
07:47:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:47:44 <pfps> ACTION: pfps to check differences between functional and RDF syntaxes
ACTION: pfps to check differences between functional and RDF syntaxes ←
07:47:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-232 - Check differences between functional and RDF syntaxes [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-10-30].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-232 - Check differences between functional and RDF syntaxes [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-10-30]. ←
07:48:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:48:19 <pfps> Ivan: also XML syntax
Ivan Herman: also XML syntax ←
07:48:54 <pfps> Bijan: XML syntax mirrors functional syntax
Bijan Parsia: XML syntax mirrors functional syntax ←
07:49:04 <pfps> Subtopic: XML serialization
07:50:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:50:27 <pfps> Bijan: Document is up to date - potential outstanding issues
Bijan Parsia: Document is up to date - potential outstanding issues ←
07:50:49 <pfps> Bijan: Would be nice to have a non-normative RelaxNG syntax
Bijan Parsia: Would be nice to have a non-normative RelaxNG syntax ←
07:51:10 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:51:26 <pfps> Bijan: This would an editorial addition - non critical - could even be after last call
Bijan Parsia: This would an editorial addition - non critical - could even be after last call ←
07:51:49 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:52:20 <pfps> Bijan: Issues with aspects of design - too verbose - need to check with Matt Horridge
Bijan Parsia: Issues with aspects of design - too verbose - need to check with Matt Horridge ←
07:52:42 <pfps> IanH: There was a query from Alan related to the MOF metamodel - can we generate the syntax from the MOF?
Ian Horrocks: There was a query from Alan related to the MOF metamodel - can we generate the syntax from the MOF? ←
07:53:25 <Elisa> What would be generated from the MOF metamodel is XMI, which is an OMG specification for XML schema interchange
Elisa Kendall: What would be generated from the MOF metamodel is XMI, which is an OMG specification for XML schema interchange ←
07:53:32 <pfps> Bijan: Not a good idea - no evidence that it would work - know that conversion to RelaxNG works
Bijan Parsia: Not a good idea - no evidence that it would work - know that conversion to RelaxNG works ←
07:53:46 <pfps> Bijan: MOF conversion to XML might result in an unreadable schema
Bijan Parsia: MOF conversion to XML might result in an unreadable schema ←
07:53:58 <pfps> Boris: Could end up very close
Boris Motik: Could end up very close ←
07:54:06 <Elisa> This could be mapped to various other surface syntaxes in an automated way
Elisa Kendall: This could be mapped to various other surface syntaxes in an automated way ←
07:54:28 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:54:41 <pfps> Bijan: I want to see the output before I determine whether it is a good idea
Bijan Parsia: I want to see the output before I determine whether it is a good idea ←
07:55:02 <sandro> Sandro: We can just wait until someone comes forward wanting this, and see if they're offering to do it.
Sandro Hawke: We can just wait until someone comes forward wanting this, and see if they're offering to do it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
07:55:24 <pfps> Elisa: Lots of tools generate XML Schema from a metamodel - could be verbose
Elisa Kendall: Lots of tools generate XML Schema from a metamodel - could be verbose ←
07:55:32 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
07:55:36 <sandro> elisa: The XMI -- the automatic XML schema -- will be generated automatically by any decent UML tool -- but the XMI has extra cruft, which you'd have to map out of it.
Elisa Kendall: The XMI -- the automatic XML schema -- will be generated automatically by any decent UML tool -- but the XMI has extra cruft, which you'd have to map out of it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
07:55:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
07:55:56 <pfps> Elisa: What does the WG want to do with the result?
Elisa Kendall: What does the WG want to do with the result? ←
07:56:08 <bijan> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
07:56:35 <pfps> Boris: Why do we want XMI? We then get an automatically-generated syntax
Boris Motik: Why do we want XMI? We then get an automatically-generated syntax ←
07:56:47 <pfps> Boris: Depends on result of metamodel issue
Boris Motik: Depends on result of metamodel issue ←
07:57:17 <sandro> Bijan: The question is whether this would result in a better schema. More accurate, ...?
Bijan Parsia: The question is whether this would result in a better schema. More accurate, ...? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
07:57:21 <pfps> Bijan: I can see point related to above claim. However, is the result a better schema?
Bijan Parsia: I can see point related to above claim. However, is the result a better schema? ←
07:57:52 <pfps> Bijan: I would prefer RelaxNG but I'm not proposing to change at this point.
Bijan Parsia: I would prefer RelaxNG but I'm not proposing to change at this point. ←
07:57:59 <pfps> Bijan: We need to be sure of the benefit.
Bijan Parsia: We need to be sure of the benefit. ←
07:58:24 <pfps> Boris: Peter Hasse sent me an automatically generated schema - it wasn't pretty.
Boris Motik: Peter Hasse sent me an automatically generated schema - it wasn't pretty. ←
07:58:52 <pfps> Boris: Peter Hasse said that the generation can be controlled, so maybe a good schema could result
Boris Motik: Peter Hasse said that the generation can be controlled, so maybe a good schema could result ←
07:59:15 <pfps> Boris: In any case this depends on the metamodel issue and then a benefits analysis
Boris Motik: In any case this depends on the metamodel issue and then a benefits analysis ←
07:59:21 <pfps> Bijan: Agree
Bijan Parsia: Agree ←
07:59:35 <pfps> IanH: Agree and also worry about timeline
Ian Horrocks: Agree and also worry about timeline ←
07:59:45 <pfps> Bijan: Can we test whether our schema matches the metamodel
Bijan Parsia: Can we test whether our schema matches the metamodel ←
08:00:09 <pfps> Elisa: Yes, but I'm not up on the tools - I do know someone who knows how to do this
Elisa Kendall: Yes, but I'm not up on the tools - I do know someone who knows how to do this ←
08:00:26 <pfps> Bijan: Testing our Schema would be a good idea
Bijan Parsia: Testing our Schema would be a good idea ←
08:00:47 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:01:16 <pfps> Elisa: This can also be a debugging tool
Elisa Kendall: This can also be a debugging tool ←
08:01:52 <pfps> Elisa: ECLIPSE has tools that help working on ontologies
Elisa Kendall: ECLIPSE has tools that help working on ontologies ←
08:03:19 <pfps> Evan: The tools check XMI not Schema
Evan Wallace: The tools check XMI not Schema ←
08:04:06 <pfps> Bijan: But tools turn metamodels into XML Schema - what about doing the reverse?
Bijan Parsia: But tools turn metamodels into XML Schema - what about doing the reverse? ←
08:04:31 <pfps> Evan: The tools result in ugly schema
Evan Wallace: The tools result in ugly schema ←
08:04:41 <pfps> Bijan: So there are no recognizers?
Bijan Parsia: So there are no recognizers? ←
08:04:55 <sandro> wikipedia says "exchanging files between UML modeling tools using XMI is rarely possible."
Sandro Hawke: wikipedia says "exchanging files between UML modeling tools using XMI is rarely possible." ←
08:05:18 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:05:40 <pfps> Boris: If we can automatically generate a nice Schema from the metamodel then we get automatic correspondence
Boris Motik: If we can automatically generate a nice Schema from the metamodel then we get automatic correspondence ←
08:05:53 <Rinke> (sandro, that's my personal experience as well)
Rinke Hoekstra: (sandro, that's my personal experience as well) ←
08:06:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:06:36 <pfps> Bijan: Correctness (consistence) is the only benefit, I believe the schema over the metamodel
Bijan Parsia: Correctness (consistence) is the only benefit, I believe the schema over the metamodel ←
08:07:17 <pfps> Sandro: If what Boris is saying works, then we get some increment to confidence
Sandro Hawke: If what Boris is saying works, then we get some increment to confidence ←
08:07:25 <pfps> IanH: Not critical path
Ian Horrocks: Not critical path ←
08:08:03 <pfps> Rinke: There are tools that generate metamodel from XML Schema
Rinke Hoekstra: There are tools that generate metamodel from XML Schema ←
08:08:07 <sandro> Sandro: If we can generate a schema from the metamodel, then run it against all the test cases, that would be a nice validation of the metamodel.
Sandro Hawke: If we can generate a schema from the metamodel, then run it against all the test cases, that would be a nice validation of the metamodel. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
08:08:16 <pfps> IanH: Also a good idea, but not on our critical path
Ian Horrocks: Also a good idea, but not on our critical path ←
08:08:27 <pfps> Evan: What is the canonical form of an OWL 2 ontology
Evan Wallace: What is the canonical form of an OWL 2 ontology ←
08:08:51 <pfps> Boris: The metamodel (but this is not completely formally defined)
Boris Motik: The metamodel (but this is not completely formally defined) ←
08:09:33 <pfps> Subtopic: Profiles
08:09:33 <sandro> Boris: the metamodel -- in natural language, UML, functional syntax etc -- spread through all these bits -- that's the metamodel, and it's the canonical form.
Boris Motik: the metamodel -- in natural language, UML, functional syntax etc -- spread through all these bits -- that's the metamodel, and it's the canonical form. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
08:09:47 <pfps> Boris: Up to date - some outstanding issues
Boris Motik: Up to date - some outstanding issues ←
08:09:57 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:10:11 <pfps> Bijan: What about descriptive stuff on the various profiles?
Bijan Parsia: What about descriptive stuff on the various profiles? ←
08:10:25 <pfps> IanH: I added some of this stuff - it is controversial
Ian Horrocks: I added some of this stuff - it is controversial ←
08:10:54 <pfps> Ivan: Want full grammars for each profile
Ivan Herman: Want full grammars for each profile ←
08:10:57 <bijan> Editor's Note: This appendix will contain the full grammars of each of the profiles. The grammar will be completed when the technical work on each of the profiles has been finished.
Bijan Parsia: Editor's Note: This appendix will contain the full grammars of each of the profiles. The grammar will be completed when the technical work on each of the profiles has been finished. ←
08:11:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:11:10 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profiles#Appendix:_Complete_Grammars_for_Profiles
Bijan Parsia: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profiles#Appendix:_Complete_Grammars_for_Profiles ←
08:11:17 <pfps> Boris: Editorial note - will be done before Last Call - don't want to do before final changes
Boris Motik: Editorial note - will be done before Last Call - don't want to do before final changes ←
08:11:23 <pfps> Ivan: What about Theorem 1
Ivan Herman: What about Theorem 1 ←
08:11:41 <pfps> IanH: Up for discussion later
Ian Horrocks: Up for discussion later ←
08:11:50 <pfps> IanH: Some issues related to RL
Ian Horrocks: Some issues related to RL ←
08:12:00 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:12:04 <pfps> Subtopic: Primer
08:12:23 <pfps> Bijan: I'm waiting for the other documents to stabilize
Bijan Parsia: I'm waiting for the other documents to stabilize ←
08:12:41 <pfps> Bijan: I might want to change the example - traditional families might be controversial
Bijan Parsia: I might want to change the example - traditional families might be controversial ←
08:13:17 <pfps> Ivan: For me the example works - I propose not to change unless there are major objections
Ivan Herman: For me the example works - I propose not to change unless there are major objections ←
08:13:52 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:14:27 <pfps> Sandro: Stay biological - social is controversial
Sandro Hawke: Stay biological - social is controversial ←
08:15:09 <pfps> Ivan: Turtle examples are not nice - I will work on them
Ivan Herman: Turtle examples are not nice - I will work on them ←
08:15:50 <pfps> Bijan: I can't commit to Primer before end of year
Bijan Parsia: I can't commit to Primer before end of year ←
08:16:33 <pfps> Ivan: What is the status of the primer - rec track vs note - undetermined so far
Ivan Herman: What is the status of the primer - rec track vs note - undetermined so far ←
08:16:49 <pfps> Ivan: What about profiles in primer?
Ivan Herman: What about profiles in primer? ←
08:16:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:17:13 <pfps> Bijan: As little as possible - bulks up the primer too much
Bijan Parsia: As little as possible - bulks up the primer too much ←
08:17:22 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:17:35 <pfps> Ivan: How about using the same example for all profiles?
Ivan Herman: How about using the same example for all profiles? ←
08:17:43 <pfps> Bijan: Could be a good idea
Bijan Parsia: Could be a good idea ←
08:17:54 <pfps> Ivan: Appendices?
Ivan Herman: Appendices? ←
08:18:12 <pfps> Bijan: Profiles in text - non-starter - overwhelming
Bijan Parsia: Profiles in text - non-starter - overwhelming ←
08:18:24 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:18:26 <pfps> Bijan: Profiles in appendices - better
Bijan Parsia: Profiles in appendices - better ←
08:18:30 <pfps> Ivan: More useful
Ivan Herman: More useful ←
08:18:41 <pfps> Bijan: Let's try one of them
Bijan Parsia: Let's try one of them ←
08:18:45 <pfps> Ivan: I'll try RL
Ivan Herman: I'll try RL ←
08:19:35 <Zhe> Ivan I can help you if you need anything
Zhe Wu: Ivan I can help you if you need anything ←
08:19:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:20:40 <pfps> Christine: Primer is similar to Ontology Development 101, which was useful
Christine Golbreich: Primer is similar to Ontology Development 101, which was useful ←
08:23:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:23:22 <pfps> Christine: I don't like the Manchester Syntax - it is frame-like and uses "fact" - may lead to misunderstanding
Christine Golbreich: I don't like the Manchester Syntax - it is frame-like and uses "fact" - may lead to misunderstanding ←
08:24:29 <pfps> Bijan: The Primer just uses the majorly-used syntaxes - We used Manchester syntax initially so it comes first
Bijan Parsia: The Primer just uses the majorly-used syntaxes - We used Manchester syntax initially so it comes first ←
08:24:32 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:25:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:26:25 <pfps> IanH: We will discuss status and schedule later in the F2F.
Ian Horrocks: We will discuss status and schedule later in the F2F. ←
08:27:26 <pfps> Bijan: There is some perspective-specific stuff in the primer (that can be removed from the presentation)
Bijan Parsia: There is some perspective-specific stuff in the primer (that can be removed from the presentation) ←
08:27:32 <Elisa> Latest version of the QRG (wiki) is at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Quick_Reference_Guide
Elisa Kendall: Latest version of the QRG (wiki) is at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Quick_Reference_Guide ←
08:27:37 <pfps> Subtopic: Quick Reference Guide:
08:28:16 <pfps> pfps: Agenda has pointer to most recent version
Peter Patel-Schneider: Agenda has pointer to most recent version ←
08:28:21 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:28:26 <pfps> Ivan: QRG has changed tremendously
Ivan Herman: QRG has changed tremendously ←
08:28:42 <pfps> Elisa: Yes it did change a lot, and it changed again just recently
Elisa Kendall: Yes it did change a lot, and it changed again just recently ←
08:28:50 <pfps> Ivan: QRG looks good
Ivan Herman: QRG looks good ←
08:29:08 <pfps> Elisa: We took a recommendation from pfps to reorganize
Elisa Kendall: We took a recommendation from pfps to reorganize ←
08:29:18 <pfps> Elisa: Not everything is hyperlinked
Elisa Kendall: Not everything is hyperlinked ←
08:29:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:29:58 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
08:30:01 <pfps> Elisa: Intent is to hyperlink everything (functional syntax, RDF syntax, etc.)
Elisa Kendall: Intent is to hyperlink everything (functional syntax, RDF syntax, etc.) ←
08:30:17 <pfps> Elisa: Might also link to Primer
Elisa Kendall: Might also link to Primer ←
08:30:29 <pfps> Elisa: Might require anchors in other documents
Elisa Kendall: Might require anchors in other documents ←
08:30:43 <pfps> Elisa: Still want a two-page print version from this structure
Elisa Kendall: Still want a two-page print version from this structure ←
08:30:59 <pfps> Elisa: Also want a page for the profiles
Elisa Kendall: Also want a page for the profiles ←
08:31:18 <bijan> I like this a lot!
Bijan Parsia: I like this a lot! ←
08:31:36 <pfps> Elisa: Examples - we might not keep them but instead link to Primer
Elisa Kendall: Examples - we might not keep them but instead link to Primer ←
08:31:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:31:39 <bijan> Or link to the syntax, which has examples for every feature
Bijan Parsia: Or link to the syntax, which has examples for every feature ←
08:32:32 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:32:56 <pfps> Elisa: We want feedback on structure, later sections need more review
Elisa Kendall: We want feedback on structure, later sections need more review ←
08:33:22 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:33:22 <bijan> Note: Old documents had a similar multi-docuoment index: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#appA
Scribe problem: the name 'Note' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Bernardo Cuenca Grau Sandro Hawke Markus Krötzsch Michael Schneider Achille Fokoue Bijan Parsia Evan Wallace Christine Golbreich Rinke Hoekstra Ivan Herman Elisa Kendall Zhe Wu Henson Graves Jeremy Carroll Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown Note: Old documents had a similar multi-docuoment index: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#appA [ Scribe Assist by Bijan Parsia ] ←
08:33:26 <bijan> But this is much nicer
Bijan Parsia: But this is much nicer ←
08:33:35 <pfps> Ivan: I like it
Ivan Herman: I like it ←
08:33:52 <bijan> And is much better than: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#appC
Bijan Parsia: And is much better than: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#appC ←
08:33:56 <pfps> Ivan: What should the third column link to?
Ivan Herman: What should the third column link to? ←
08:34:17 <pfps> Elisa: We are not sure - I think semantics
Elisa Kendall: We are not sure - I think semantics ←
08:34:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:34:44 <pfps> Ivan: Mapping document is just a table - so not good to link to it - semantics is better
Ivan Herman: Mapping document is just a table - so not good to link to it - semantics is better ←
08:35:44 <pfps> Michael: One problem is that RDF semantics doesn't have the "syntax"
Michael Schneider: One problem is that RDF semantics doesn't have the "syntax" ←
08:35:54 <pfps> IanH: Semantic isn't great to link to
Ian Horrocks: Semantic isn't great to link to ←
08:36:18 <pfps> Elisa: Might link to Primer instead - we may try some things
Elisa Kendall: Might link to Primer instead - we may try some things ←
08:36:50 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:36:53 <pfps> Bijan: Neither RDF mapping nor RDF semantics is useful to link to
Bijan Parsia: Neither RDF mapping nor RDF semantics is useful to link to ←
08:36:57 <IanH> ack ivan
Ian Horrocks: ack ivan ←
08:37:08 <pfps> Ivan: perhaps linking to primer is best
Ivan Herman: perhaps linking to primer is best ←
08:37:30 <pfps> Bijan: Primer is not comprehensive but could serve, perhaps with minor changes
Bijan Parsia: Primer is not comprehensive but could serve, perhaps with minor changes ←
08:38:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:39:00 <pfps> Christine: QRG is most useful as initial point of contact
Christine Golbreich: QRG is most useful as initial point of contact ←
08:39:31 <pfps> Christine: QRG is too terse
Christine Golbreich: QRG is too terse ←
08:40:17 <pfps> Christine: LInk to requirements document instead?
Christine Golbreich: LInk to requirements document instead? ←
08:40:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:41:09 <pfps> Evan: What about linking from Recommendations to Notes
Evan Wallace: What about linking from Recommendations to Notes ←
08:41:21 <pfps> Ivan: Not a good idea
Ivan Herman: Not a good idea ←
08:41:28 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:41:29 <pfps> Bijan: I don't see a problem - just need to be careful
Bijan Parsia: I don't see a problem - just need to be careful ←
08:41:48 <pfps> Ivan: Need to refer to stable documents
Ivan Herman: Need to refer to stable documents ←
08:41:55 <pfps> Bijan: I like the document
Bijan Parsia: I like the document ←
08:42:18 <pfps> IanH: QRG is getting close to being done, still needs work
Ian Horrocks: QRG is getting close to being done, still needs work ←
08:42:44 <pfps> Bijan: Publish as working draft at last call, even if not done
Bijan Parsia: Publish as working draft at last call, even if not done ←
08:43:10 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←
08:43:16 <pfps> Subtopic: Requirements
08:43:49 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:44:17 <pfps> Christine: I think that requirements is close to done - I would make changes - may need changes based on F2F discussion
Christine Golbreich: I think that requirements is close to done - I would make changes - may need changes based on F2F discussion ←
08:44:37 <pfps> Christine: There have been several reviews - Bijan, Jie, Elisa
Christine Golbreich: There have been several reviews - Bijan, Jie, Elisa ←
08:44:48 <pfps> Christine: Only Bijan had major comments
Christine Golbreich: Only Bijan had major comments ←
08:44:57 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
08:45:45 <pfps> Christine: Addressing Bijan's comments needs input from WG
Christine Golbreich: Addressing Bijan's comments needs input from WG ←
08:46:21 <pfps> Christine: There are some conflicting reviews
Christine Golbreich: There are some conflicting reviews ←
08:46:48 <pfps> Christine: Almost all done - changes needed in response to outstanding comments
Christine Golbreich: Almost all done - changes needed in response to outstanding comments ←
08:47:15 <pfps> Christine: Major decision is whether to cut chunks out
Christine Golbreich: Major decision is whether to cut chunks out ←
08:47:25 <pfps> Ivan: I like Section 5
Ivan Herman: I like Section 5 ←
08:47:59 <pfps> Ivan: What does the button do?
Ivan Herman: What does the button do? ←
08:48:23 <pfps> Ivan: Oh, I see -
Ivan Herman: Oh, I see - ←
08:48:47 <pfps> Evan: Need feedback on what do to with the document
Evan Wallace: Need feedback on what do to with the document ←
08:49:02 <pfps> Evan: One possibility is to split into two
Evan Wallace: One possibility is to split into two ←
08:49:04 <Zhe> +1 to Evan
08:50:20 <pfps> Rinke: Large fraction of HCLS use cases - how about recategorizing them?
Rinke Hoekstra: Large fraction of HCLS use cases - how about recategorizing them? ←
08:51:26 <pfps> IanH: Need to discuss this document later
Ian Horrocks: Need to discuss this document later ←
08:51:50 <pfps> Christine: Suggest to move features to Quick Reference Guide
Christine Golbreich: Suggest to move features to Quick Reference Guide ←
<sandro> Meeting in progress. New content inserted above this line.
Sandro Hawke: Meeting in progress. New content inserted above this line. ←
This revision (#1) generated 2008-10-23 08:54:45 UTC by 'unknown', comments: 'First sessions done'