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<sandro> Present: rees, wallace, msmith, m_schnei, haase, jie, zhe, sandro, ruttenberg, ian, boris, pfps, Miroslav, Achille, Vipul
<sandro> Remote: bijan, uli, carsten, dlm, elisa, christine
12:01:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-owl-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-owl-irc ←
12:01:57 <IanH> zakim, this will be owl
Ian Horrocks: zakim, this will be owl ←
12:01:57 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start now ←
12:02:32 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda#Day_2
Ian Horrocks: IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda#Day_2 ←
12:02:49 <IanH> Zakim, this will be owlwg
Ian Horrocks: Zakim, this will be owlwg ←
12:02:49 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago ←
12:03:02 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public
Ian Horrocks: RRSAgent, make records public ←
12:34:46 <Carsten> good morning. :)
(No events recorded for 31 minutes)
Carsten Lutz: good morning. :) ←
12:59:58 <Zakim> SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 25 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started ←
13:00:04 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
13:00:13 <uli> zakim, ??P2 is me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
13:00:13 <Zakim> +uli; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it ←
13:00:24 <uli> and good morning to you!
Uli Sattler: and good morning to you! ←
13:02:11 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:02:11 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:02:26 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:02:26 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:03:55 <uli> Hey, I should use this opportunity for advertisement!
Uli Sattler: Hey, I should use this opportunity for advertisement! ←
13:04:53 <uli> Please remember to submit to OWLED 2008 -- deadline for abstracts is next week, more details can be found at http://www.webont.org/owled/2008/
Uli Sattler: Please remember to submit to OWLED 2008 -- deadline for abstracts is next week, more details can be found at http://www.webont.org/owled/2008/ ←
13:05:26 <uli> we are looking forward to receiving your submissions.
Uli Sattler: we are looking forward to receiving your submissions. ←
13:06:03 <uli> Also, around ISWC and OWLED, there will be interesting tutorials -- please have a look at http://iswc2008.semanticweb.org/program/tutorials/
Uli Sattler: Also, around ISWC and OWLED, there will be interesting tutorials -- please have a look at http://iswc2008.semanticweb.org/program/tutorials/ ←
13:06:15 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:06:15 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:06:37 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room ←
13:06:41 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:06:41 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
13:10:03 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
13:10:16 <bparsia> zakim, ??p1 is me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??p1 is me ←
13:10:16 <Zakim> +bparsia; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bparsia; got it ←
13:10:19 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:10:19 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:11:31 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
13:11:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted) ←
13:11:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see msmith, Zhe, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, jar, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see msmith, Zhe, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, jar, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
13:11:42 <uli> hiho
Uli Sattler: hiho ←
13:11:48 <bparsia> hullo
Bijan Parsia: hullo ←
13:12:18 <Achille> sandro could you please make me the scribe? I forgot the magic command
Achille Fokoue: sandro could you please make me the scribe? I forgot the magic command ←
13:13:10 <uli> scribenick Achille
Uli Sattler: scribenick Achille ←
13:13:15 <Zakim> + +00493514633aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +00493514633aaaa ←
13:13:24 <Carsten> zakim, aaaa is me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, aaaa is me ←
13:13:24 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Carsten; got it ←
13:13:33 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:13:33 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:13:47 <Achille> topic: datatype roundup
13:15:02 <msmith> working from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html
Michael Smith: working from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html ←
13:15:07 <Achille> subtopic: Issue 126 : list of normative datatype
13:15:38 <Achille> ianh: as per the previous email, we decided to have xsd:float discret as in XML Schema
Ian Horrocks: as per the previous email, we decided to have xsd:float discret as in XML Schema [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:16:17 <Achille> ianh: we need to decide about rational
Ian Horrocks: we need to decide about rational [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:16:32 <uli> q+
Uli Sattler: q+ ←
13:16:38 <uli> q-
Uli Sattler: q- ←
13:16:43 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:16:48 <Achille> mike: we decide to postpone a decision on rational for the time of discussing N-ary datatype
Michael Smith: we decide to postpone a decision on rational for the time of discussing N-ary datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:17:11 <Achille> mike = msmith
Achille Fokoue: mike = msmith ←
13:17:32 <Achille> ianh: owl:numberPlus contains -0 what happen to facet?
Ian Horrocks: owl:numberPlus contains -0 what happen to facet? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:17:41 <Achille> s/ianh/boris
Achille Fokoue: s/ianh/boris ←
13:17:58 <Achille> alanr: XSD should answer this question
Alan Ruttenberg: XSD should answer this question [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:18:09 <Achille> msmith : XSD says that 0=-0
Achille Fokoue: msmith : XSD says that 0=-0 ←
13:18:44 <msmith> for +/-0 see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#float
Michael Smith: for +/-0 see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#float ←
13:19:10 <Achille> alanr: my worry is that float and double aren't not the same
Alan Ruttenberg: my worry is that float and double aren't not the same [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:19:23 <Achille> s/aren't not/ aren't
Achille Fokoue: s/aren't not/ aren't ←
13:20:51 <Achille> msmith: xsd NaN when used for range defined an empty range
Michael Smith: xsd NaN when used for range defined an empty range [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:21:14 <bparsia> It's definitely not maxfloat
Bijan Parsia: It's definitely not maxfloat ←
13:22:03 <Achille> alanr: adding 1 to maxfloat gets you to infinity
Alan Ruttenberg: adding 1 to maxfloat gets you to infinity [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:22:20 <Achille> alanr: same thing for double
Alan Ruttenberg: same thing for double [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:16 <Achille> boris: any range that contains 0, also contains -0?
Boris Motik: any range that contains 0, also contains -0? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:28 <Achille> boris: XSD does different thing than us
Boris Motik: XSD does different thing than us [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:52 <Achille> boris: the pb is that we also have true number (integer decimal, etc)
Boris Motik: the pb is that we also have true number (integer decimal, etc) [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:24:00 <Achille> alanr: what is the consequence?
Alan Ruttenberg: what is the consequence? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:24:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:24:55 <Achille> m_schnei: -0 also denotes 0
Michael Schneider: -0 also denotes 0 [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:25:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:25:20 <Achille> boris: it should be fine since integer does not contain -0
Boris Motik: it should be fine since integer does not contain -0 [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:26 <bparsia> I like owl:real
Bijan Parsia: I like owl:real ←
13:26:29 <Achille> ianh: owl:number is renamed owl:real
Ian Horrocks: owl:number is renamed owl:real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:26:46 <Achille> ianh: owl:rational depends on the N-ary discussion
Ian Horrocks: owl:rational depends on the N-ary discussion [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:49 <m_schnei> m_schnei: if you ask for "{-0} subset [-1,+1]", then the reasoner should say yes, because the float *literal* "-0" denotes the *value* ZERO
Michael Schneider: if you ask for "{-0} subset [-1,+1]", then the reasoner should say yes, because the float *literal* "-0" denotes the *value* ZERO [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
13:26:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:26:55 <Achille> ... nothing about integer?
Achille Fokoue: ... nothing about integer? ←
13:27:14 <Achille> alanr: we should add a min conformance of 64 bit integer
Alan Ruttenberg: we should add a min conformance of 64 bit integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:27:46 <m_schnei> ian: what about "owl:number" vs. "owl:real"?
Ian Horrocks: what about "owl:number" vs. "owl:real"? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
13:27:59 <Achille> alanr: what happen when there is a constant above the 64 bit restriction?
Alan Ruttenberg: what happen when there is a constant above the 64 bit restriction? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:07 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:28:10 <Achille> ianh: we should discuss that later
Ian Horrocks: we should discuss that later [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:28:47 <m_schnei> several people: "owl:real" is better
Michael Schneider: several people: "owl:real" is better ←
13:28:48 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:28:48 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:28:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:28:56 <Achille> alanr: a datatype range greater that the max integer is still statisfiable
Alan Ruttenberg: a datatype range greater that the max integer is still statisfiable [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:57 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
13:29:20 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:29:20 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:29:47 <Achille> alanr: let make the datatype document easily searchable for the key word conformance
Alan Ruttenberg: let make the datatype document easily searchable for the key word conformance [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:30:19 <Achille> ianh: xsd:float and xsd:double value space are now discrete
Ian Horrocks: xsd:float and xsd:double value space are now discrete [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:30:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:30:55 <Achille> alanr: how do we decide between XSD & IEEE?
Alan Ruttenberg: how do we decide between XSD & IEEE? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:31:07 <Achille> ... for float and double
Achille Fokoue: ... for float and double ←
13:31:33 <bparsia> I prefer IEEE in general
Bijan Parsia: I prefer IEEE in general ←
13:32:01 <Achille> m_schnei: NaN is not comparable to anything else
Michael Schneider: NaN is not comparable to anything else [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:32:10 <bparsia> There are a lot of NaN. And for any NaN and any other float/double NaN != that number, including itself
Bijan Parsia: There are a lot of NaN. And for any NaN and any other float/double NaN != that number, including itself ←
13:32:47 <Achille> msmith: xsd:float has a single lexical representation
Michael Smith: xsd:float has a single lexical representation [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:09 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:33:14 <Achille> m_schnei: NaN is not comparable with itself!
Michael Schneider: NaN is not comparable with itself! [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:39 <Achille> alanr: you should also consider the need for counting float elements
Alan Ruttenberg: you should also consider the need for counting float elements [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:55 <Achille> msmith: can reasoning introduce NaN?
Michael Smith: can reasoning introduce NaN? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:34:32 <Achille> boris: let's go with XSD
Boris Motik: let's go with XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:34:58 <Achille> ianh: everybody seems to agree with going with XSD
Ian Horrocks: everybody seems to agree with going with XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:10 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:35:26 <Achille> alanr: is it useful to have xsd:decimal as a type?
Alan Ruttenberg: is it useful to have xsd:decimal as a type? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:46 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
13:35:46 <Achille> msmith: it gives you arbitrary precision decimal number
Michael Smith: it gives you arbitrary precision decimal number [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:55 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
13:36:07 <bparsia> 1/10 is a decimal but not a binary number (e.g., float)
Bijan Parsia: 1/10 is a decimal but not a binary number (e.g., float) ←
13:36:10 <Achille> alanr: how do i test that something is a decimal number
Alan Ruttenberg: how do i test that something is a decimal number [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:36:19 <bparsia> I can't understand alan rut
Bijan Parsia: I can't understand alan rut ←
13:36:31 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
13:36:39 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#decimal
Michael Smith: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#decimal ←
13:36:40 <Achille> pfps: XSD has a well answer to that question. please read the spec?
Peter Patel-Schneider: XSD has a well answer to that question. please read the spec? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:36:46 <bparsia> I can't udnerstand alan at all
Bijan Parsia: I can't udnerstand alan at all ←
13:36:48 <Achille> s/?/
Achille Fokoue: s/?/ ←
13:36:52 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:36:53 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:36:54 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:36:59 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:36:59 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:37:33 <Achille> alanr: i'll read xsd spec to get the answer to my question
Alan Ruttenberg: i'll read xsd spec to get the answer to my question [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:37:59 <Achille> alanr: my pb is bt real and decimal
Alan Ruttenberg: my pb is bt real and decimal [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:38:41 <Achille> pfps: decimal= integer * 10^integer
Peter Patel-Schneider: decimal= integer * 10^integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:39:02 <bparsia> I still didn't catch that from alan
Bijan Parsia: I still didn't catch that from alan ←
13:39:17 <bparsia> It would help if he slowed down, becuase thphone seems to cut out on soft bits
Bijan Parsia: It would help if he slowed down, becuase thphone seems to cut out on soft bits ←
13:39:19 <sandro> Alan: Is it required that every datatype for serialization is also a datatype for range restrictions? I don't think so.
Alan Ruttenberg: Is it required that every datatype for serialization is also a datatype for range restrictions? I don't think so. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:39:58 <Achille> m_schnei: I can approximate as precisely as wish sqrt(2) using decimal but not with float or double
Michael Schneider: I can approximate as precisely as wish sqrt(2) using decimal but not with float or double [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:40:20 <bparsia> But the way, I wasn't intending those searchs as determinative
Bijan Parsia: But the way, I wasn't intending those searchs as determinative ←
13:40:29 <bparsia> I was just gathering some evidence
Bijan Parsia: I was just gathering some evidence ←
13:40:31 <Achille> boris: we should allow it as a legacy datatype
Boris Motik: we should allow it as a legacy datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:41 <bparsia> +1 to boris
Bijan Parsia: +1 to boris ←
13:40:49 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:40:53 <Achille> alanr: that's agood argument. thanks!
Alan Ruttenberg: that's agood argument. thanks! [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:57 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:40:59 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
13:41:00 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
13:41:06 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
13:42:23 <Achille> bijan I did not get your point, could you type it?
Achille Fokoue: bijan I did not get your point, could you type it? ←
13:43:09 <Achille> alanr: there is not oneon one mapping between decimal and real
Alan Ruttenberg: there is not oneon one mapping between decimal and real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:43:33 <bparsia> I'm worried about things like (not sure that is a correct case) 0.1^^xsd:float != 0.1^^xsd:decimal
Bijan Parsia: I'm worried about things like (not sure that is a correct case) 0.1^^xsd:float != 0.1^^xsd:decimal ←
13:43:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:44:04 <Achille> alanr: decimal as a datatype is a synonym for real
Alan Ruttenberg: decimal as a datatype is a synonym for real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:44:29 <bparsia> -1 to decimal as a synonym for real
Bijan Parsia: -1 to decimal as a synonym for real ←
13:44:39 <Achille> zhe: do we need to specify a minimal conformance for decimal
Zhe Wu: do we need to specify a minimal conformance for decimal [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:44:47 <bparsia> decimal isn't even a synonym for rational :)
Bijan Parsia: decimal isn't even a synonym for rational :) ←
13:44:48 <Achille> boris: there is such restriction in XSD
Boris Motik: there is such restriction in XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:45:25 <bparsia> Integer, rational, decimal etc.
Bijan Parsia: Integer, rational, decimal etc. ←
13:45:33 <bparsia> Algebraic reals are denumeral
Bijan Parsia: Algebraic reals are denumeral ←
13:45:37 <bparsia> Only the transcendental
Bijan Parsia: Only the transcendental ←
13:45:47 <bparsia> +1 evan
Bijan Parsia: +1 evan ←
13:45:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:45:55 <uli> Alan Rector was really glad about decimal
Uli Sattler: Alan Rector was really glad about decimal ←
13:45:57 <Achille> ekw: decimal is the most useful datetype in XSD
Evan Wallace: decimal is the most useful datetype in XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:46:34 <Achille> alanr: I'm ok with keeping deciimal in the spec
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm ok with keeping deciimal in the spec [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:46:44 <msmith> zhe and others interested in conformance, new page itemizing what needs to be addressed at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ConformanceIssues
Michael Smith: zhe and others interested in conformance, new page itemizing what needs to be addressed at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ConformanceIssues ←
13:47:19 <Achille> m_schnei: I do not understand why xsd:decimal is owl:real
Michael Schneider: I do not understand why xsd:decimal is owl:real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:47:33 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:47:33 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:47:36 <Achille> ianh: we have discussed it and decided to leave them separate
Ian Horrocks: we have discussed it and decided to leave them separate [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:48:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:49:04 <Achille> alanr: for base64Binary, should will allow length, minLength, maxLength?
Alan Ruttenberg: for base64Binary, should will allow length, minLength, maxLength? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:40 <Achille> m_schnei: why these datatypes (base64Bin, hexBin)?
Michael Schneider: why these datatypes (base64Bin, hexBin)? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:44 <Achille> boris: why not?
Boris Motik: why not? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:54 <Carsten> Wouldn't it make sense to make a lot of this exotic stuff optional?
Carsten Lutz: Wouldn't it make sense to make a lot of this exotic stuff optional? ←
13:49:58 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:49:59 <Achille> m_schnei: why not everything from xsd?
Michael Schneider: why not everything from xsd? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:50:21 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:50:28 <Achille> alanr: we are trying to get an well agreed list of acceptable datatype
Alan Ruttenberg: we are trying to get an well agreed list of acceptable datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:50:28 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:50:28 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:50:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:50:30 <Carsten> Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin
Carsten Lutz: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin ←
13:50:44 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:50:49 <sandro> ack bparsia
Sandro Hawke: ack bparsia ←
13:51:09 <Achille> bijan: the most important thing is to make sure that we say something meaningful about each datatype
Bijan Parsia: the most important thing is to make sure that we say something meaningful about each datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:51:21 <Achille> ... about its usage
Achille Fokoue: ... about its usage ←
13:51:42 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:51:42 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:51:50 <Achille> ... in swoogle I found a couple of these datatypes, but I need to investigate further
Achille Fokoue: ... in swoogle I found a couple of these datatypes, but I need to investigate further ←
13:52:08 <m_schnei> +1 to Carsten (I think...)
Michael Schneider: +1 to Carsten (I think...) ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData16">
Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData16"> ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/> ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;hexBinary"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;hexBinary"/> ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> </owl:DatatypeProperty>
Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty> ←
13:52:34 <Achille> boris: i think it is not difficult to implement these types. All you need is to find the number of element in a given range
Boris Motik: i think it is not difficult to implement these types. All you need is to find the number of element in a given range [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData64">
Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData64"> ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/> ←
13:52:36 <bparsia> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;base64Binary"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;base64Binary"/> ←
13:52:38 <bparsia> </owl:DatatypeProperty>
Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty> ←
13:52:43 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:52:49 <Achille> boris: it is almost identical to string
Boris Motik: it is almost identical to string [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:52:58 <uli> ...this finiteness could still cause performance problems, but i guess having a warning about this could suffice?
Uli Sattler: ...this finiteness could still cause performance problems, but i guess having a warning about this could suffice? ←
13:52:59 <bparsia> I'm ok in forcing implementmation if it's relatively trivial
Bijan Parsia: I'm ok in forcing implementmation if it's relatively trivial ←
13:53:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:53:32 <Achille> alanr: what concern from Carsten, but everybody else seems to agree to support them
Alan Ruttenberg: what concern from Carsten, but everybody else seems to agree to support them [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:53:48 <Achille> Carsten: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin
Carsten Lutz: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:53:49 <bparsia> +1 to boris
Bijan Parsia: +1 to boris ←
13:54:00 <Carsten> My proposal was to make the exotic stuff optional
Carsten Lutz: My proposal was to make the exotic stuff optional ←
13:54:25 <Achille> boris: the implementation overhead is almost identical for string. So if we have string, we can also have binary datatype
Boris Motik: the implementation overhead is almost identical for string. So if we have string, we can also have binary datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:54:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:54:31 <alanr> optional = incompatible
Alan Ruttenberg: optional = incompatible ←
13:55:02 <Carsten> q+
Carsten Lutz: q+ ←
13:55:10 <Carsten> zakim, unmute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, unmute me ←
13:55:10 <Zakim> Carsten should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should no longer be muted ←
13:55:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:55:14 <Achille> ianh: we have decided to avoid optional datatype
Ian Horrocks: we have decided to avoid optional datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:55:14 <alanr> carsten, this is easy stuff
Alan Ruttenberg: carsten, this is easy stuff ←
13:55:34 <Achille> carsten: I do not care so much about whether this is optional
Carsten Lutz: I do not care so much about whether this is optional [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:55:49 <Achille> ... it seems to me that these types are of limited use
Achille Fokoue: ... it seems to me that these types are of limited use ←
13:56:20 <Achille> ... i am not sure that the only important point is the ability to count elements in a range
Achille Fokoue: ... i am not sure that the only important point is the ability to count elements in a range ←
13:56:42 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:56:42 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:56:46 <m_schnei> Carsten, I think this is a moot discussion
Michael Schneider: Carsten, I think this is a moot discussion ←
13:56:55 <Achille> ... for completeness we may have to also check that a range does not contain a given element
Achille Fokoue: ... for completeness we may have to also check that a range does not contain a given element ←
13:57:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:57:20 <Carsten> q-
Carsten Lutz: q- ←
13:57:20 <Achille> boris: you can easily map all the float to integer
Boris Motik: you can easily map all the float to integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:57:21 <IanH> ack Carsten
Ian Horrocks: ack Carsten ←
13:57:27 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:57:27 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:57:49 <Carsten> ok, thanks for the explanation, I have to admit that it is not easy to follow the discussion remotely
Carsten Lutz: ok, thanks for the explanation, I have to admit that it is not easy to follow the discussion remotely ←
13:57:53 <Achille> boris: the complexity is not worse than for integer
Boris Motik: the complexity is not worse than for integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:57:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:58:00 <Carsten> an email summing up would be nice, indeed
Carsten Lutz: an email summing up would be nice, indeed ←
13:58:13 <Achille> ... i can send u code to get the next float and the number of float in a range
Achille Fokoue: ... i can send u code to get the next float and the number of float in a range ←
13:58:14 <bparsia> See: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm
Scribe problem: the name 'See' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Miroslav Vacura Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Carsten Lutz Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown See: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm [ Scribe Assist by Bijan Parsia ] ←
13:58:26 <Achille> ... I have redrew my objection
Achille Fokoue: ... I have redrew my objection ←
13:58:34 <bparsia> In particular: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/Comparing%20floating%20point%20numbers.htm#_Toc135149455
Bijan Parsia: In particular: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/Comparing%20floating%20point%20numbers.htm#_Toc135149455 ←
13:58:37 <Achille> ianh: we are don't with numeric
Ian Horrocks: we are don't with numeric [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:59:54 <bparsia> There's a standard one for iSO
Bijan Parsia: There's a standard one for iSO ←
14:00:00 <Achille> ianh: yesterday , we agree to support xsd:dateTime with timezone
Ian Horrocks: yesterday , we agree to support xsd:dateTime with timezone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:00:17 <bparsia> As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris
Bijan Parsia: As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris ←
14:00:31 <Achille> pfps: datetime is dense so all the problem wih counting
Peter Patel-Schneider: datetime is dense so all the problem wih counting [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:02:13 <m_schnei> evan: do we support leap seconds?
Evan Wallace: do we support leap seconds? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:02:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:02:37 <m_schnei> pfps: if we don't do arithmetics, it doesn't matter, since the ordering isn't hurt by leaps
Peter Patel-Schneider: if we don't do arithmetics, it doesn't matter, since the ordering isn't hurt by leaps [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:03:35 <Achille> ianh: xsd:dateTime facet: length, minLength,maxLength
Ian Horrocks: xsd:dateTime facet: length, minLength,maxLength [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:04:31 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:05:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:05:36 <Achille> alanr: why not just create a new datatype owl:dateTime?
Alan Ruttenberg: why not just create a new datatype owl:dateTime? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:05:46 <Achille> ... which will require timezone
Achille Fokoue: ... which will require timezone ←
14:06:21 <bparsia> +1 to xsd:datetime
Bijan Parsia: +1 to xsd:datetime ←
14:06:37 <uli> +178 to xsd:datetime
Uli Sattler: +178 to xsd:datetime ←
14:06:46 <bparsia> I would call it a conformance thing
Bijan Parsia: I would call it a conformance thing ←
14:07:38 <uli> ...I very much like Ian's suggestion about the 'may repair al gusto'!
Uli Sattler: ...I very much like Ian's suggestion about the 'may repair al gusto'! ←
14:07:48 <Achille> ianh: we have already decided to let application do they own repair
Ian Horrocks: we have already decided to let application do they own repair [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:07:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:08:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:09:03 <Achille> boris: xsd makes an error here by saying that it is isomorphic to the timeline
Boris Motik: xsd makes an error here by saying that it is isomorphic to the timeline [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:09:08 <bparsia> -1000 to tuple model
Bijan Parsia: -1000 to tuple model ←
14:09:32 <Achille> ianh: let's not reconsider our decision made yesterday about mandating timezone
Ian Horrocks: let's not reconsider our decision made yesterday about mandating timezone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:09:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:09:57 <bparsia> Btw, both generating and consuming tools can offer corrections and repairs
Bijan Parsia: Btw, both generating and consuming tools can offer corrections and repairs ←
14:10:16 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:10:24 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:10:39 <Achille> m_schnei: in practice, it is not a pb because any application that accept non-timezone has to come up with some strategy to deal with them
Michael Schneider: in practice, it is not a pb because any application that accept non-timezone has to come up with some strategy to deal with them [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:10:45 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:11:16 <Achille> ianh: that is precisely the point we cannot mandate any behavior to all apps
Ian Horrocks: that is precisely the point we cannot mandate any behavior to all apps [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:11:37 <m_schnei> sandro: we should talk to the XSD 1.1 WG what we think is wrong with non-timezoned dateTimeS
Sandro Hawke: we should talk to the XSD 1.1 WG what we think is wrong with non-timezoned dateTimeS [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:11:42 <Achille> sandro: we should make a formal comment to XSD 1.1 working group
Sandro Hawke: we should make a formal comment to XSD 1.1 working group [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:12:07 <Achille> pfps: I'll send them a forml comment
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll send them a forml comment [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:12:14 <sandro> ACTION: pfps to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: pfps to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:14 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps ←
14:12:27 <sandro> ACTION: peter to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: peter to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:27 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter ←
14:12:27 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase) ←
14:12:39 <sandro> ACTION: ppatelsc to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: ppatelsc to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-176 - Draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-176 - Draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05]. ←
14:12:41 <Achille> ianh: internally we require timezone, but let applications do the right repair
Ian Horrocks: internally we require timezone, but let applications do the right repair [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:13:42 <bparsia> I would also suggest that we document different repairs. Whether on the owl wg wiki or the owled one
Bijan Parsia: I would also suggest that we document different repairs. Whether on the owl wg wiki or the owled one ←
14:13:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:14:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:15:48 <ekw> straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime, or our own dateTime datatype
Evan Wallace: straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime, or our own dateTime datatype ←
14:16:27 <uli> ...too general/complex isn't bad?
Uli Sattler: ...too general/complex isn't bad? ←
14:16:49 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:17:02 <Achille> pfps: the comparison bt datetime with and w/o timezone is not feasable in our specification
Peter Patel-Schneider: the comparison bt datetime with and w/o timezone is not feasable in our specification [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:17:03 <ekw> straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime with a requirement for timezone component in text of spec
Evan Wallace: straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime with a requirement for timezone component in text of spec ←
14:17:06 <bmotik> STRAWPOLL: Should we use owl:dateTime instead of xsd:dateTime (+1 = owl:dateTime, -1 = xsd:dateTime)
STRAWPOLL: Should we use owl:dateTime instead of xsd:dateTime (+1 = owl:dateTime, -1 = xsd:dateTime) ←
14:17:19 <Achille> +1
Achille Fokoue: +1 ←
14:17:23 <baojie> +1
14:17:26 <msmith> -1
Michael Smith: -1 ←
14:17:27 <bmotik> 0
Boris Motik: 0 ←
14:17:34 <Zhe> 0
14:17:37 <bparsia> -1 to xsd:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: -1 to xsd:dateTime ←
14:17:40 <bparsia> er
Bijan Parsia: er ←
14:17:44 <bparsia> -1 to owl:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: -1 to owl:dateTime ←
14:17:47 <pha> +1
Peter Haase: +1 ←
14:17:52 <sandro> Alan: to be clear, we'll still accept xsd:dateTime on input
Alan Ruttenberg: to be clear, we'll still accept xsd:dateTime on input [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:17:57 <ekw> using boris' poll
Evan Wallace: using boris' poll ←
14:17:59 <ekw> -1
Evan Wallace: -1 ←
14:18:03 <sandro> -0
Sandro Hawke: -0 ←
14:18:33 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:18:33 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
14:18:37 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
14:18:38 <pfps> 0 (+/- 1)
Peter Patel-Schneider: 0 (+/- 1) ←
14:18:44 <Achille> bijan:yes I want xsd:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: yes I want xsd:dateTime [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:19:06 <Achille> ianh: we almost have a split decision
Ian Horrocks: we almost have a split decision [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:20:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:20:24 <bparsia> Not just doable, but acceptible
Bijan Parsia: Not just doable, but acceptible ←
14:20:28 <Achille> alanr: we have agreed on xsd:dateTime with required timeZone
Alan Ruttenberg: we have agreed on xsd:dateTime with required timeZone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:20:35 <bparsia> I don't find, e.g., an interval to be a user-sensible default
Bijan Parsia: I don't find, e.g., an interval to be a user-sensible default ←
14:20:53 <m_schnei> -1
Michael Schneider: -1 ←
14:21:32 <Achille> alanr: in other case we tried to keep xsd semantics
Alan Ruttenberg: in other case we tried to keep xsd semantics [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:21:43 <Achille> s/other case/ other cases/
Achille Fokoue: s/other case/ other cases/ ←
14:21:47 <baojie> will owl:dateTime require a timezone?
Jie Bao: will owl:dateTime require a timezone? ←
14:21:55 <Achille> yes
Achille Fokoue: yes ←
14:22:26 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:22:57 <Achille> ekw: I am not comfortable by XSD 1.1 new semantics on dateTime
Evan Wallace: I am not comfortable by XSD 1.1 new semantics on dateTime [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:23:33 <bparsia> I would prefer that we calledit xsd:dateTime and said that we add additional restrictions (the way implemetnation might only support 64 bit integers)
Bijan Parsia: I would prefer that we calledit xsd:dateTime and said that we add additional restrictions (the way implemetnation might only support 64 bit integers) ←
14:23:36 <Achille> ianh: we defeer the issue of xsd:dateTime vs owl:dateTime for the next meeting
Ian Horrocks: we defeer the issue of xsd:dateTime vs owl:dateTime for the next meeting [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:25:23 <Achille> all the details on the decision made w.r.t datatype are posted at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html
Achille Fokoue: all the details on the decision made w.r.t datatype are posted at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html ←
14:25:40 <Achille> s/decision/decisions
Achille Fokoue: s/decision/decisions ←
14:25:50 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126.
PROPOSED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126. ←
14:25:57 <bmotik> +1 Oxford
Boris Motik: +1 Oxford ←
14:26:02 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:26:04 <alanr> +1 Science Commons
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 Science Commons ←
14:26:10 <sandro> +1 W3C
Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C ←
14:26:12 <Achille> +1 IBM
Achille Fokoue: +1 IBM ←
14:26:13 <pha> +1 (FZI)
Peter Haase: +1 (FZI) ←
14:26:15 <baojie> +1 RPI
14:26:17 <msmith> +1 C&P
Michael Smith: +1 C&P ←
14:26:18 <ekw> +1 NIST
Evan Wallace: +1 NIST ←
14:26:29 <Zhe> +1 ORACLE
14:26:32 <uli> +1 manchester
Uli Sattler: +1 manchester ←
14:26:43 <sandro> RESOLVED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126.
RESOLVED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126. ←
12:01:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-owl-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-owl-irc ←
12:01:57 <IanH> zakim, this will be owl
Ian Horrocks: zakim, this will be owl ←
12:01:57 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start now ←
12:02:32 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda#Day_2
Ian Horrocks: IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda#Day_2 ←
12:02:49 <IanH> Zakim, this will be owlwg
Ian Horrocks: Zakim, this will be owlwg ←
12:02:49 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago ←
12:03:02 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public
Ian Horrocks: RRSAgent, make records public ←
12:34:46 <Carsten> good morning. :)
(No events recorded for 31 minutes)
Carsten Lutz: good morning. :) ←
12:59:58 <Zakim> SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 25 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started ←
13:00:04 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
13:00:13 <uli> zakim, ??P2 is me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
13:00:13 <Zakim> +uli; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it ←
13:00:24 <uli> and good morning to you!
Uli Sattler: and good morning to you! ←
13:02:11 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:02:11 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:02:26 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:02:26 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:03:55 <uli> Hey, I should use this opportunity for advertisement!
Uli Sattler: Hey, I should use this opportunity for advertisement! ←
13:04:53 <uli> Please remember to submit to OWLED 2008 -- deadline for abstracts is next week, more details can be found at http://www.webont.org/owled/2008/
Uli Sattler: Please remember to submit to OWLED 2008 -- deadline for abstracts is next week, more details can be found at http://www.webont.org/owled/2008/ ←
13:05:26 <uli> we are looking forward to receiving your submissions.
Uli Sattler: we are looking forward to receiving your submissions. ←
13:06:03 <uli> Also, around ISWC and OWLED, there will be interesting tutorials -- please have a look at http://iswc2008.semanticweb.org/program/tutorials/
Uli Sattler: Also, around ISWC and OWLED, there will be interesting tutorials -- please have a look at http://iswc2008.semanticweb.org/program/tutorials/ ←
13:06:15 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:06:15 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:06:37 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room ←
13:06:41 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:06:41 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
13:10:03 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
13:10:16 <bparsia> zakim, ??p1 is me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??p1 is me ←
13:10:16 <Zakim> +bparsia; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bparsia; got it ←
13:10:19 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:10:19 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:11:31 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
13:11:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted) ←
13:11:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see msmith, Zhe, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, jar, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see msmith, Zhe, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, jar, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
13:11:42 <uli> hiho
Uli Sattler: hiho ←
13:11:48 <bparsia> hullo
Bijan Parsia: hullo ←
13:12:18 <Achille> sandro could you please make me the scribe? I forgot the magic command
Achille Fokoue: sandro could you please make me the scribe? I forgot the magic command ←
13:13:10 <uli> scribenick Achille
Uli Sattler: scribenick Achille ←
13:13:15 <Zakim> + +00493514633aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +00493514633aaaa ←
13:13:24 <Carsten> zakim, aaaa is me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, aaaa is me ←
13:13:24 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Carsten; got it ←
13:13:33 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:13:33 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:13:47 <Achille> topic: datatype roundup
13:15:02 <msmith> working from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html
Michael Smith: working from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html ←
13:15:07 <Achille> subtopic: Issue 126 : list of normative datatype
13:15:38 <Achille> ianh: as per the previous email, we decided to have xsd:float discret as in XML Schema
Ian Horrocks: as per the previous email, we decided to have xsd:float discret as in XML Schema [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:16:17 <Achille> ianh: we need to decide about rational
Ian Horrocks: we need to decide about rational [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:16:32 <uli> q+
Uli Sattler: q+ ←
13:16:38 <uli> q-
Uli Sattler: q- ←
13:16:43 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:16:48 <Achille> mike: we decide to postpone a decision on rational for the time of discussing N-ary datatype
Michael Smith: we decide to postpone a decision on rational for the time of discussing N-ary datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:17:11 <Achille> mike = msmith
Achille Fokoue: mike = msmith ←
13:17:32 <Achille> ianh: owl:numberPlus contains -0 what happen to facet?
Ian Horrocks: owl:numberPlus contains -0 what happen to facet? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:17:41 <Achille> s/ianh/boris
Achille Fokoue: s/ianh/boris ←
13:17:58 <Achille> alanr: XSD should answer this question
Alan Ruttenberg: XSD should answer this question [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:18:09 <Achille> msmith : XSD says that 0=-0
Achille Fokoue: msmith : XSD says that 0=-0 ←
13:18:44 <msmith> for +/-0 see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#float
Michael Smith: for +/-0 see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#float ←
13:19:10 <Achille> alanr: my worry is that float and double aren't not the same
Alan Ruttenberg: my worry is that float and double aren't not the same [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:19:23 <Achille> s/aren't not/ aren't
Achille Fokoue: s/aren't not/ aren't ←
13:20:51 <Achille> msmith: xsd NaN when used for range defined an empty range
Michael Smith: xsd NaN when used for range defined an empty range [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:21:14 <bparsia> It's definitely not maxfloat
Bijan Parsia: It's definitely not maxfloat ←
13:22:03 <Achille> alanr: adding 1 to maxfloat gets you to infinity
Alan Ruttenberg: adding 1 to maxfloat gets you to infinity [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:22:20 <Achille> alanr: same thing for double
Alan Ruttenberg: same thing for double [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:16 <Achille> boris: any range that contains 0, also contains -0?
Boris Motik: any range that contains 0, also contains -0? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:28 <Achille> boris: XSD does different thing than us
Boris Motik: XSD does different thing than us [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:52 <Achille> boris: the pb is that we also have true number (integer decimal, etc)
Boris Motik: the pb is that we also have true number (integer decimal, etc) [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:24:00 <Achille> alanr: what is the consequence?
Alan Ruttenberg: what is the consequence? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:24:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:24:55 <Achille> m_schnei: -0 also denotes 0
Michael Schneider: -0 also denotes 0 [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:25:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:25:20 <Achille> boris: it should be fine since integer does not contain -0
Boris Motik: it should be fine since integer does not contain -0 [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:26 <bparsia> I like owl:real
Bijan Parsia: I like owl:real ←
13:26:29 <Achille> ianh: owl:number is renamed owl:real
Ian Horrocks: owl:number is renamed owl:real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:26:46 <Achille> ianh: owl:rational depends on the N-ary discussion
Ian Horrocks: owl:rational depends on the N-ary discussion [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:49 <m_schnei> m_schnei: if you ask for "{-0} subset [-1,+1]", then the reasoner should say yes, because the float *literal* "-0" denotes the *value* ZERO
Michael Schneider: if you ask for "{-0} subset [-1,+1]", then the reasoner should say yes, because the float *literal* "-0" denotes the *value* ZERO [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
13:26:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:26:55 <Achille> ... nothing about integer?
Achille Fokoue: ... nothing about integer? ←
13:27:14 <Achille> alanr: we should add a min conformance of 64 bit integer
Alan Ruttenberg: we should add a min conformance of 64 bit integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:27:46 <m_schnei> ian: what about "owl:number" vs. "owl:real"?
Ian Horrocks: what about "owl:number" vs. "owl:real"? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
13:27:59 <Achille> alanr: what happen when there is a constant above the 64 bit restriction?
Alan Ruttenberg: what happen when there is a constant above the 64 bit restriction? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:07 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:28:10 <Achille> ianh: we should discuss that later
Ian Horrocks: we should discuss that later [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:28:47 <m_schnei> several people: "owl:real" is better
Michael Schneider: several people: "owl:real" is better ←
13:28:48 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:28:48 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:28:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:28:56 <Achille> alanr: a datatype range greater that the max integer is still statisfiable
Alan Ruttenberg: a datatype range greater that the max integer is still statisfiable [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:57 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
13:29:20 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:29:20 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:29:47 <Achille> alanr: let make the datatype document easily searchable for the key word conformance
Alan Ruttenberg: let make the datatype document easily searchable for the key word conformance [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:30:19 <Achille> ianh: xsd:float and xsd:double value space are now discrete
Ian Horrocks: xsd:float and xsd:double value space are now discrete [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:30:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:30:55 <Achille> alanr: how do we decide between XSD & IEEE?
Alan Ruttenberg: how do we decide between XSD & IEEE? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:31:07 <Achille> ... for float and double
Achille Fokoue: ... for float and double ←
13:31:33 <bparsia> I prefer IEEE in general
Bijan Parsia: I prefer IEEE in general ←
13:32:01 <Achille> m_schnei: NaN is not comparable to anything else
Michael Schneider: NaN is not comparable to anything else [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:32:10 <bparsia> There are a lot of NaN. And for any NaN and any other float/double NaN != that number, including itself
Bijan Parsia: There are a lot of NaN. And for any NaN and any other float/double NaN != that number, including itself ←
13:32:47 <Achille> msmith: xsd:float has a single lexical representation
Michael Smith: xsd:float has a single lexical representation [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:09 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:33:14 <Achille> m_schnei: NaN is not comparable with itself!
Michael Schneider: NaN is not comparable with itself! [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:39 <Achille> alanr: you should also consider the need for counting float elements
Alan Ruttenberg: you should also consider the need for counting float elements [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:55 <Achille> msmith: can reasoning introduce NaN?
Michael Smith: can reasoning introduce NaN? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:34:32 <Achille> boris: let's go with XSD
Boris Motik: let's go with XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:34:58 <Achille> ianh: everybody seems to agree with going with XSD
Ian Horrocks: everybody seems to agree with going with XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:10 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:35:26 <Achille> alanr: is it useful to have xsd:decimal as a type?
Alan Ruttenberg: is it useful to have xsd:decimal as a type? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:46 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
13:35:46 <Achille> msmith: it gives you arbitrary precision decimal number
Michael Smith: it gives you arbitrary precision decimal number [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:55 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
13:36:07 <bparsia> 1/10 is a decimal but not a binary number (e.g., float)
Bijan Parsia: 1/10 is a decimal but not a binary number (e.g., float) ←
13:36:10 <Achille> alanr: how do i test that something is a decimal number
Alan Ruttenberg: how do i test that something is a decimal number [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:36:19 <bparsia> I can't understand alan rut
Bijan Parsia: I can't understand alan rut ←
13:36:31 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
13:36:39 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#decimal
Michael Smith: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#decimal ←
13:36:40 <Achille> pfps: XSD has a well answer to that question. please read the spec?
Peter Patel-Schneider: XSD has a well answer to that question. please read the spec? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:36:46 <bparsia> I can't udnerstand alan at all
Bijan Parsia: I can't udnerstand alan at all ←
13:36:48 <Achille> s/?/
Achille Fokoue: s/?/ ←
13:36:52 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:36:53 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:36:54 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:36:59 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:36:59 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:37:33 <Achille> alanr: i'll read xsd spec to get the answer to my question
Alan Ruttenberg: i'll read xsd spec to get the answer to my question [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:37:59 <Achille> alanr: my pb is bt real and decimal
Alan Ruttenberg: my pb is bt real and decimal [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:38:41 <Achille> pfps: decimal= integer * 10^integer
Peter Patel-Schneider: decimal= integer * 10^integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:39:02 <bparsia> I still didn't catch that from alan
Bijan Parsia: I still didn't catch that from alan ←
13:39:17 <bparsia> It would help if he slowed down, becuase thphone seems to cut out on soft bits
Bijan Parsia: It would help if he slowed down, becuase thphone seems to cut out on soft bits ←
13:39:19 <sandro> Alan: Is it required that every datatype for serialization is also a datatype for range restrictions? I don't think so.
Alan Ruttenberg: Is it required that every datatype for serialization is also a datatype for range restrictions? I don't think so. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:39:58 <Achille> m_schnei: I can approximate as precisely as wish sqrt(2) using decimal but not with float or double
Michael Schneider: I can approximate as precisely as wish sqrt(2) using decimal but not with float or double [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:40:20 <bparsia> But the way, I wasn't intending those searchs as determinative
Bijan Parsia: But the way, I wasn't intending those searchs as determinative ←
13:40:29 <bparsia> I was just gathering some evidence
Bijan Parsia: I was just gathering some evidence ←
13:40:31 <Achille> boris: we should allow it as a legacy datatype
Boris Motik: we should allow it as a legacy datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:41 <bparsia> +1 to boris
Bijan Parsia: +1 to boris ←
13:40:49 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:40:53 <Achille> alanr: that's agood argument. thanks!
Alan Ruttenberg: that's agood argument. thanks! [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:57 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:40:59 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
13:41:00 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
13:41:06 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
13:42:23 <Achille> bijan I did not get your point, could you type it?
Achille Fokoue: bijan I did not get your point, could you type it? ←
13:43:09 <Achille> alanr: there is not oneon one mapping between decimal and real
Alan Ruttenberg: there is not oneon one mapping between decimal and real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:43:33 <bparsia> I'm worried about things like (not sure that is a correct case) 0.1^^xsd:float != 0.1^^xsd:decimal
Bijan Parsia: I'm worried about things like (not sure that is a correct case) 0.1^^xsd:float != 0.1^^xsd:decimal ←
13:43:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:44:04 <Achille> alanr: decimal as a datatype is a synonym for real
Alan Ruttenberg: decimal as a datatype is a synonym for real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:44:29 <bparsia> -1 to decimal as a synonym for real
Bijan Parsia: -1 to decimal as a synonym for real ←
13:44:39 <Achille> zhe: do we need to specify a minimal conformance for decimal
Zhe Wu: do we need to specify a minimal conformance for decimal [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:44:47 <bparsia> decimal isn't even a synonym for rational :)
Bijan Parsia: decimal isn't even a synonym for rational :) ←
13:44:48 <Achille> boris: there is such restriction in XSD
Boris Motik: there is such restriction in XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:45:25 <bparsia> Integer, rational, decimal etc.
Bijan Parsia: Integer, rational, decimal etc. ←
13:45:33 <bparsia> Algebraic reals are denumeral
Bijan Parsia: Algebraic reals are denumeral ←
13:45:37 <bparsia> Only the transcendental
Bijan Parsia: Only the transcendental ←
13:45:47 <bparsia> +1 evan
Bijan Parsia: +1 evan ←
13:45:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:45:55 <uli> Alan Rector was really glad about decimal
Uli Sattler: Alan Rector was really glad about decimal ←
13:45:57 <Achille> ekw: decimal is the most useful datetype in XSD
Evan Wallace: decimal is the most useful datetype in XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:46:34 <Achille> alanr: I'm ok with keeping deciimal in the spec
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm ok with keeping deciimal in the spec [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:46:44 <msmith> zhe and others interested in conformance, new page itemizing what needs to be addressed at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ConformanceIssues
Michael Smith: zhe and others interested in conformance, new page itemizing what needs to be addressed at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ConformanceIssues ←
13:47:19 <Achille> m_schnei: I do not understand why xsd:decimal is owl:real
Michael Schneider: I do not understand why xsd:decimal is owl:real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:47:33 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:47:33 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:47:36 <Achille> ianh: we have discussed it and decided to leave them separate
Ian Horrocks: we have discussed it and decided to leave them separate [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:48:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:49:04 <Achille> alanr: for base64Binary, should will allow length, minLength, maxLength?
Alan Ruttenberg: for base64Binary, should will allow length, minLength, maxLength? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:40 <Achille> m_schnei: why these datatypes (base64Bin, hexBin)?
Michael Schneider: why these datatypes (base64Bin, hexBin)? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:44 <Achille> boris: why not?
Boris Motik: why not? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:54 <Carsten> Wouldn't it make sense to make a lot of this exotic stuff optional?
Carsten Lutz: Wouldn't it make sense to make a lot of this exotic stuff optional? ←
13:49:58 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:49:59 <Achille> m_schnei: why not everything from xsd?
Michael Schneider: why not everything from xsd? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:50:21 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:50:28 <Achille> alanr: we are trying to get an well agreed list of acceptable datatype
Alan Ruttenberg: we are trying to get an well agreed list of acceptable datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:50:28 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:50:28 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:50:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:50:30 <Carsten> Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin
Carsten Lutz: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin ←
13:50:44 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:50:49 <sandro> ack bparsia
Sandro Hawke: ack bparsia ←
13:51:09 <Achille> bijan: the most important thing is to make sure that we say something meaningful about each datatype
Bijan Parsia: the most important thing is to make sure that we say something meaningful about each datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:51:21 <Achille> ... about its usage
Achille Fokoue: ... about its usage ←
13:51:42 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:51:42 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:51:50 <Achille> ... in swoogle I found a couple of these datatypes, but I need to investigate further
Achille Fokoue: ... in swoogle I found a couple of these datatypes, but I need to investigate further ←
13:52:08 <m_schnei> +1 to Carsten (I think...)
Michael Schneider: +1 to Carsten (I think...) ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData16">
Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData16"> ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/> ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;hexBinary"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;hexBinary"/> ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> </owl:DatatypeProperty>
Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty> ←
13:52:34 <Achille> boris: i think it is not difficult to implement these types. All you need is to find the number of element in a given range
Boris Motik: i think it is not difficult to implement these types. All you need is to find the number of element in a given range [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData64">
Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData64"> ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/> ←
13:52:36 <bparsia> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;base64Binary"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;base64Binary"/> ←
13:52:38 <bparsia> </owl:DatatypeProperty>
Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty> ←
13:52:43 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:52:49 <Achille> boris: it is almost identical to string
Boris Motik: it is almost identical to string [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:52:58 <uli> ...this finiteness could still cause performance problems, but i guess having a warning about this could suffice?
Uli Sattler: ...this finiteness could still cause performance problems, but i guess having a warning about this could suffice? ←
13:52:59 <bparsia> I'm ok in forcing implementmation if it's relatively trivial
Bijan Parsia: I'm ok in forcing implementmation if it's relatively trivial ←
13:53:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:53:32 <Achille> alanr: what concern from Carsten, but everybody else seems to agree to support them
Alan Ruttenberg: what concern from Carsten, but everybody else seems to agree to support them [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:53:48 <Achille> Carsten: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin
Carsten Lutz: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:53:49 <bparsia> +1 to boris
Bijan Parsia: +1 to boris ←
13:54:00 <Carsten> My proposal was to make the exotic stuff optional
Carsten Lutz: My proposal was to make the exotic stuff optional ←
13:54:25 <Achille> boris: the implementation overhead is almost identical for string. So if we have string, we can also have binary datatype
Boris Motik: the implementation overhead is almost identical for string. So if we have string, we can also have binary datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:54:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:54:31 <alanr> optional = incompatible
Alan Ruttenberg: optional = incompatible ←
13:55:02 <Carsten> q+
Carsten Lutz: q+ ←
13:55:10 <Carsten> zakim, unmute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, unmute me ←
13:55:10 <Zakim> Carsten should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should no longer be muted ←
13:55:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:55:14 <Achille> ianh: we have decided to avoid optional datatype
Ian Horrocks: we have decided to avoid optional datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:55:14 <alanr> carsten, this is easy stuff
Alan Ruttenberg: carsten, this is easy stuff ←
13:55:34 <Achille> carsten: I do not care so much about whether this is optional
Carsten Lutz: I do not care so much about whether this is optional [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:55:49 <Achille> ... it seems to me that these types are of limited use
Achille Fokoue: ... it seems to me that these types are of limited use ←
13:56:20 <Achille> ... i am not sure that the only important point is the ability to count elements in a range
Achille Fokoue: ... i am not sure that the only important point is the ability to count elements in a range ←
13:56:42 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:56:42 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:56:46 <m_schnei> Carsten, I think this is a moot discussion
Michael Schneider: Carsten, I think this is a moot discussion ←
13:56:55 <Achille> ... for completeness we may have to also check that a range does not contain a given element
Achille Fokoue: ... for completeness we may have to also check that a range does not contain a given element ←
13:57:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:57:20 <Carsten> q-
Carsten Lutz: q- ←
13:57:20 <Achille> boris: you can easily map all the float to integer
Boris Motik: you can easily map all the float to integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:57:21 <IanH> ack Carsten
Ian Horrocks: ack Carsten ←
13:57:27 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:57:27 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:57:49 <Carsten> ok, thanks for the explanation, I have to admit that it is not easy to follow the discussion remotely
Carsten Lutz: ok, thanks for the explanation, I have to admit that it is not easy to follow the discussion remotely ←
13:57:53 <Achille> boris: the complexity is not worse than for integer
Boris Motik: the complexity is not worse than for integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:57:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:58:00 <Carsten> an email summing up would be nice, indeed
Carsten Lutz: an email summing up would be nice, indeed ←
13:58:13 <Achille> ... i can send u code to get the next float and the number of float in a range
Achille Fokoue: ... i can send u code to get the next float and the number of float in a range ←
13:58:14 <bparsia> See: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm
Scribe problem: the name 'See' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Miroslav Vacura Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Carsten Lutz Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown See: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm [ Scribe Assist by Bijan Parsia ] ←
13:58:26 <Achille> ... I have redrew my objection
Achille Fokoue: ... I have redrew my objection ←
13:58:34 <bparsia> In particular: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/Comparing%20floating%20point%20numbers.htm#_Toc135149455
Bijan Parsia: In particular: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/Comparing%20floating%20point%20numbers.htm#_Toc135149455 ←
13:58:37 <Achille> ianh: we are don't with numeric
Ian Horrocks: we are don't with numeric [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:59:54 <bparsia> There's a standard one for iSO
Bijan Parsia: There's a standard one for iSO ←
14:00:00 <Achille> ianh: yesterday , we agree to support xsd:dateTime with timezone
Ian Horrocks: yesterday , we agree to support xsd:dateTime with timezone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:00:17 <bparsia> As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris
Bijan Parsia: As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris ←
14:00:31 <Achille> pfps: datetime is dense so all the problem wih counting
Peter Patel-Schneider: datetime is dense so all the problem wih counting [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:02:13 <m_schnei> evan: do we support leap seconds?
Evan Wallace: do we support leap seconds? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:02:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:02:37 <m_schnei> pfps: if we don't do arithmetics, it doesn't matter, since the ordering isn't hurt by leaps
Peter Patel-Schneider: if we don't do arithmetics, it doesn't matter, since the ordering isn't hurt by leaps [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:03:35 <Achille> ianh: xsd:dateTime facet: length, minLength,maxLength
Ian Horrocks: xsd:dateTime facet: length, minLength,maxLength [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:04:31 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:05:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:05:36 <Achille> alanr: why not just create a new datatype owl:dateTime?
Alan Ruttenberg: why not just create a new datatype owl:dateTime? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:05:46 <Achille> ... which will require timezone
Achille Fokoue: ... which will require timezone ←
14:06:21 <bparsia> +1 to xsd:datetime
Bijan Parsia: +1 to xsd:datetime ←
14:06:37 <uli> +178 to xsd:datetime
Uli Sattler: +178 to xsd:datetime ←
14:06:46 <bparsia> I would call it a conformance thing
Bijan Parsia: I would call it a conformance thing ←
14:07:38 <uli> ...I very much like Ian's suggestion about the 'may repair al gusto'!
Uli Sattler: ...I very much like Ian's suggestion about the 'may repair al gusto'! ←
14:07:48 <Achille> ianh: we have already decided to let application do they own repair
Ian Horrocks: we have already decided to let application do they own repair [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:07:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:08:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:09:03 <Achille> boris: xsd makes an error here by saying that it is isomorphic to the timeline
Boris Motik: xsd makes an error here by saying that it is isomorphic to the timeline [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:09:08 <bparsia> -1000 to tuple model
Bijan Parsia: -1000 to tuple model ←
14:09:32 <Achille> ianh: let's not reconsider our decision made yesterday about mandating timezone
Ian Horrocks: let's not reconsider our decision made yesterday about mandating timezone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:09:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:09:57 <bparsia> Btw, both generating and consuming tools can offer corrections and repairs
Bijan Parsia: Btw, both generating and consuming tools can offer corrections and repairs ←
14:10:16 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:10:24 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:10:39 <Achille> m_schnei: in practice, it is not a pb because any application that accept non-timezone has to come up with some strategy to deal with them
Michael Schneider: in practice, it is not a pb because any application that accept non-timezone has to come up with some strategy to deal with them [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:10:45 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:11:16 <Achille> ianh: that is precisely the point we cannot mandate any behavior to all apps
Ian Horrocks: that is precisely the point we cannot mandate any behavior to all apps [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:11:37 <m_schnei> sandro: we should talk to the XSD 1.1 WG what we think is wrong with non-timezoned dateTimeS
Sandro Hawke: we should talk to the XSD 1.1 WG what we think is wrong with non-timezoned dateTimeS [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:11:42 <Achille> sandro: we should make a formal comment to XSD 1.1 working group
Sandro Hawke: we should make a formal comment to XSD 1.1 working group [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:12:07 <Achille> pfps: I'll send them a forml comment
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll send them a forml comment [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:12:14 <sandro> ACTION: pfps to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: pfps to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:14 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps ←
14:12:27 <sandro> ACTION: peter to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: peter to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:27 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter ←
14:12:27 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase) ←
14:12:39 <sandro> ACTION: ppatelsc to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: ppatelsc to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-176 - Draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-176 - Draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05]. ←
14:12:41 <Achille> ianh: internally we require timezone, but let applications do the right repair
Ian Horrocks: internally we require timezone, but let applications do the right repair [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:13:42 <bparsia> I would also suggest that we document different repairs. Whether on the owl wg wiki or the owled one
Bijan Parsia: I would also suggest that we document different repairs. Whether on the owl wg wiki or the owled one ←
14:13:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:14:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:15:48 <ekw> straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime, or our own dateTime datatype
Evan Wallace: straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime, or our own dateTime datatype ←
14:16:27 <uli> ...too general/complex isn't bad?
Uli Sattler: ...too general/complex isn't bad? ←
14:16:49 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:17:02 <Achille> pfps: the comparison bt datetime with and w/o timezone is not feasable in our specification
Peter Patel-Schneider: the comparison bt datetime with and w/o timezone is not feasable in our specification [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:17:03 <ekw> straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime with a requirement for timezone component in text of spec
Evan Wallace: straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime with a requirement for timezone component in text of spec ←
14:17:06 <bmotik> STRAWPOLL: Should we use owl:dateTime instead of xsd:dateTime (+1 = owl:dateTime, -1 = xsd:dateTime)
STRAWPOLL: Should we use owl:dateTime instead of xsd:dateTime (+1 = owl:dateTime, -1 = xsd:dateTime) ←
14:17:19 <Achille> +1
Achille Fokoue: +1 ←
14:17:23 <baojie> +1
14:17:26 <msmith> -1
Michael Smith: -1 ←
14:17:27 <bmotik> 0
Boris Motik: 0 ←
14:17:34 <Zhe> 0
14:17:37 <bparsia> -1 to xsd:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: -1 to xsd:dateTime ←
14:17:40 <bparsia> er
Bijan Parsia: er ←
14:17:44 <bparsia> -1 to owl:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: -1 to owl:dateTime ←
14:17:47 <pha> +1
Peter Haase: +1 ←
14:17:52 <sandro> Alan: to be clear, we'll still accept xsd:dateTime on input
Alan Ruttenberg: to be clear, we'll still accept xsd:dateTime on input [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:17:57 <ekw> using boris' poll
Evan Wallace: using boris' poll ←
14:17:59 <ekw> -1
Evan Wallace: -1 ←
14:18:03 <sandro> -0
Sandro Hawke: -0 ←
14:18:33 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:18:33 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
14:18:37 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
14:18:38 <pfps> 0 (+/- 1)
Peter Patel-Schneider: 0 (+/- 1) ←
14:18:44 <Achille> bijan:yes I want xsd:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: yes I want xsd:dateTime [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:19:06 <Achille> ianh: we almost have a split decision
Ian Horrocks: we almost have a split decision [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:20:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:20:24 <bparsia> Not just doable, but acceptible
Bijan Parsia: Not just doable, but acceptible ←
14:20:28 <Achille> alanr: we have agreed on xsd:dateTime with required timeZone
Alan Ruttenberg: we have agreed on xsd:dateTime with required timeZone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:20:35 <bparsia> I don't find, e.g., an interval to be a user-sensible default
Bijan Parsia: I don't find, e.g., an interval to be a user-sensible default ←
14:20:53 <m_schnei> -1
Michael Schneider: -1 ←
14:21:32 <Achille> alanr: in other case we tried to keep xsd semantics
Alan Ruttenberg: in other case we tried to keep xsd semantics [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:21:43 <Achille> s/other case/ other cases/
Achille Fokoue: s/other case/ other cases/ ←
14:21:47 <baojie> will owl:dateTime require a timezone?
Jie Bao: will owl:dateTime require a timezone? ←
14:21:55 <Achille> yes
Achille Fokoue: yes ←
14:22:26 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:22:57 <Achille> ekw: I am not comfortable by XSD 1.1 new semantics on dateTime
Evan Wallace: I am not comfortable by XSD 1.1 new semantics on dateTime [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:23:33 <bparsia> I would prefer that we calledit xsd:dateTime and said that we add additional restrictions (the way implemetnation might only support 64 bit integers)
Bijan Parsia: I would prefer that we calledit xsd:dateTime and said that we add additional restrictions (the way implemetnation might only support 64 bit integers) ←
14:23:36 <Achille> ianh: we defeer the issue of xsd:dateTime vs owl:dateTime for the next meeting
Ian Horrocks: we defeer the issue of xsd:dateTime vs owl:dateTime for the next meeting [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:25:23 <Achille> all the details on the decision made w.r.t datatype are posted at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html
Achille Fokoue: all the details on the decision made w.r.t datatype are posted at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html ←
14:25:40 <Achille> s/decision/decisions
Achille Fokoue: s/decision/decisions ←
14:25:50 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126.
PROPOSED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126. ←
14:25:57 <bmotik> +1 Oxford
Boris Motik: +1 Oxford ←
14:26:02 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:26:04 <alanr> +1 Science Commons
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 Science Commons ←
14:26:10 <sandro> +1 W3C
Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C ←
14:26:12 <Achille> +1 IBM
Achille Fokoue: +1 IBM ←
14:26:13 <pha> +1 (FZI)
Peter Haase: +1 (FZI) ←
14:26:15 <baojie> +1 RPI
14:26:17 <msmith> +1 C&P
Michael Smith: +1 C&P ←
14:26:18 <ekw> +1 NIST
Evan Wallace: +1 NIST ←
14:26:29 <Zhe> +1 ORACLE
14:26:32 <uli> +1 manchester
Uli Sattler: +1 manchester ←
14:26:43 <sandro> RESOLVED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126.
RESOLVED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126. ←
14:27:48 <Achille> ianh: we agreed yesterday to make issue 132 an editorial issue
Ian Horrocks: we agreed yesterday to make ISSUE-132 an editorial issue [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:27:59 <Achille> s/ianh/boris
Achille Fokoue: s/ianh/boris ←
14:28:17 <Achille> topic: N-ary datatype
14:28:30 <Achille> ianh: a proposal is on the wiki
Ian Horrocks: a proposal is on the wiki [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:28:55 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:29:00 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:29:03 <Achille> ianh: there is compromise to make it optional,
Ian Horrocks: there is compromise to make it optional, [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:29:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:29:27 <Achille> ... if you decide to support it we specify exactly how it should be implemented
Achille Fokoue: ... if you decide to support it we specify exactly how it should be implemented ←
14:29:37 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:29:55 <Achille> alanr: there are interop issues here
Alan Ruttenberg: there are interop issues here [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:30:07 <bparsia> ?
Bijan Parsia: ? ←
14:30:33 <bparsia> Hey!
Bijan Parsia: Hey! ←
14:30:37 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:30:37 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
14:30:55 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:30:58 <Achille> alanr: when you use that aspect of the spec it is unlikely that you will be portable
Alan Ruttenberg: when you use that aspect of the spec it is unlikely that you will be portable [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:31:00 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
14:31:03 <alanr> maybe
Alan Ruttenberg: maybe ←
14:31:08 <alanr> not clear
Alan Ruttenberg: not clear ←
14:31:48 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:32:08 <msmith> +1 to bijan. There can be OWL DL conformance and OWL Nary datatype conformance as separate things
Michael Smith: +1 to bijan. There can be OWL DL conformance and OWL Nary datatype conformance as separate things ←
14:32:08 <alanr> I never use racer because of nominals
Alan Ruttenberg: I never use racer because of nominals ←
14:32:15 <Achille> bijan: i don't see why this is a pb. it is hard to me to imagine that someone using an equation would not be aware that he is doing something hard for implementation
Bijan Parsia: i don't see why this is a pb. it is hard to me to imagine that someone using an equation would not be aware that he is doing something hard for implementation [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:32:23 <alanr> consider it not to support OWL
Alan Ruttenberg: consider it not to support OWL ←
14:32:29 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:32:29 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
14:32:41 <Achille> ... this is just one of many things that tools will not support
Achille Fokoue: ... this is just one of many things that tools will not support ←
14:32:53 <bparsia> That'll be ture
Bijan Parsia: That'll be ture ←
14:33:06 <bparsia> And it won't include linear
Bijan Parsia: And it won't include linear ←
14:33:07 <Achille> alanr: I'm still concern about interoperability
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm still concern about interoperability [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:33:13 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:33:25 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:33:25 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
14:33:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:33:55 <Achille> msmith: this goes to the conformance discussion
Michael Smith: this goes to the conformance discussion [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:34:10 <m_schnei> m_schnei: thinks that typical name for this is "a standard extension"
Michael Schneider: thinks that typical name for this is "a standard extension" [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:34:12 <Achille> ... we will have similar conformance isssue with profile.
Achille Fokoue: ... we will have similar conformance isssue with profile. ←
14:34:13 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
14:34:23 <bparsia> that was a separate q!
Bijan Parsia: that was a separate q! ←
14:34:25 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:34:29 <Achille> ... it is just another facet of this problem of conformance
Achille Fokoue: ... it is just another facet of this problem of conformance ←
14:34:37 <IanH> ack bparisa
Ian Horrocks: ack bparisa ←
14:34:41 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:34:46 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
14:35:01 <Achille> bijan: i really don't understand why putting it in a different document that solve the problem
Bijan Parsia: i really don't understand why putting it in a different document that solve the problem [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:35:48 <Achille> bijan: species validation will help you understand whether you stand w.r.t. portability
Bijan Parsia: species validation will help you understand whether you stand w.r.t. portability [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:36:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:36:01 <bparsia> expressive checking in general
Bijan Parsia: expressive checking in general ←
14:36:13 <bparsia> If you have nominals, you can't use KAON2
Bijan Parsia: If you have nominals, you can't use KAON2 ←
14:36:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:36:53 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
14:37:15 <Achille> ianh: will there be a specific proposal about N-ary ?
Ian Horrocks: will there be a specific proposal about N-ary ? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:37:36 <uli> yes, I do
Uli Sattler: yes, I do ←
14:37:49 <Achille> bijan: it will be an extensibility point
Bijan Parsia: it will be an extensibility point [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:38:05 <Achille> ... we will have a specific proposal
Achille Fokoue: ... we will have a specific proposal ←
14:38:15 <Achille> ... in a separate spec
Achille Fokoue: ... in a separate spec ←
14:38:33 <bparsia> We expect at least 2 interoperable implementations
Bijan Parsia: We expect at least 2 interoperable implementations ←
14:38:35 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:38:40 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:38:45 <Achille> alanr: I'm concern with predictability
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm concern with predictability [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:38:48 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:39:13 <bparsia> I would be happy to have linear inequations in the main spec
Bijan Parsia: I would be happy to have linear inequations in the main spec ←
14:39:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:39:25 <uli> me to
Uli Sattler: me to ←
14:39:44 <uli> me too (to linear unequations)
Uli Sattler: me too (to linear unequations) ←
14:39:49 <Achille> ianh: what is missing is whether the proposal will be acceptable and what is the boundary bt the main spec and the separate proposal?
Ian Horrocks: what is missing is whether the proposal will be acceptable and what is the boundary bt the main spec and the separate proposal? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:40:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:40:16 <Achille> boris: I do not want any N-ary in the core spec
Boris Motik: I do not want any N-ary in the core spec [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:40:38 <Carsten> inequalities give you integer programming?? How??
Carsten Lutz: inequalities give you integer programming?? How?? ←
14:41:06 <Achille> ianh: boris thinks that boundary should be as the spec stands now w/o N-ary
Ian Horrocks: boris thinks that boundary should be as the spec stands now w/o N-ary [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:41:17 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:41:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia, Carsten (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia, Carsten (muted) ←
14:41:29 <Achille> m_schnei: i have no clue about what will be possible for implementator to do
Michael Schneider: i have no clue about what will be possible for implementator to do [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:41:30 <bmotik> Perhaps not the full programming. My main problem is that I haven't seen an *exact* pointer to the literature what it is that I need to do to implement it.
Boris Motik: Perhaps not the full programming. My main problem is that I haven't seen an *exact* pointer to the literature what it is that I need to do to implement it. ←
14:41:54 <Achille> ... how hard is N-ary ?
Achille Fokoue: ... how hard is N-ary ? ←
14:41:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:42:01 <bmotik> Some people promissed it, but I haven't seen any actual pointers to literature.
Boris Motik: Some people promissed it, but I haven't seen any actual pointers to literature. ←
14:42:11 <bmotik> s/promissed/promised
Boris Motik: s/promissed/promised ←
14:42:19 <bparsia> No one is advocating for crap specing
Bijan Parsia: No one is advocating for crap specing ←
14:42:21 <Achille> alanr: I'd like each extension to be as good and precise as in the current spec
Alan Ruttenberg: I'd like each extension to be as good and precise as in the current spec [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:42:26 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:42:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:43:13 <Achille> bparsia: yes of course, it will be as precise as the current spec
Bijan Parsia: yes of course, it will be as precise as the current spec [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:43:16 <uli> ...and otherwise we won't accept it - this is easy!
Uli Sattler: ...and otherwise we won't accept it - this is easy! ←
14:43:22 <alanr> good
Alan Ruttenberg: good ←
14:43:41 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:43:41 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
14:43:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:43:43 <Achille> bparsia: I want to force a CR period and force implementations
Bijan Parsia: I want to force a CR period and force implementations [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:43:46 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:44:15 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:44:19 <Achille> m_schnei: where should be the boundary?
Michael Schneider: where should be the boundary? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:44:31 <Achille> s/m_schnei/ianh
Achille Fokoue: s/m_schnei/ianh ←
14:44:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:45:04 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:45:05 <Achille> boris: I am still waiting for a pointer to concrete implementation
Boris Motik: I am still waiting for a pointer to concrete implementation [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:45:10 <bparsia> ack me
Bijan Parsia: ack me ←
14:45:14 <Achille> ... of N-ary
Achille Fokoue: ... of N-ary ←
14:45:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:45:22 <Achille> bparsia: this is reasonable
Bijan Parsia: this is reasonable [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:45:57 <Achille> ... a lot of users pushed for linear equation , we should decide about the boundary later
Achille Fokoue: ... a lot of users pushed for linear equation , we should decide about the boundary later ←
14:45:59 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:45:59 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
14:46:50 <Achille> ianh: do we agree about the separe N-ary document outside the main spec doc? we will have to decide later where the boundaryt
Ian Horrocks: do we agree about the separe N-ary document outside the main spec doc? we will have to decide later where the boundaryt [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:47:06 <Achille> s/separe/ separate/
Achille Fokoue: s/separe/ separate/ ←
14:47:12 <bparsia> +1
Bijan Parsia: +1 ←
14:47:13 <msmith> +1
Michael Smith: +1 ←
14:47:14 <uli> +1
Uli Sattler: +1 ←
14:47:18 <baojie> +1
14:47:29 <Achille> STROLLPOLL: do we agree about the separe N-ary document outside the main spec doc?
Scribe problem: the name 'STROLLPOLL' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Miroslav Vacura Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Carsten Lutz Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown STROLLPOLL: do we agree about the separe N-ary document outside the main spec doc? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:47:35 <pha> +1
Peter Haase: +1 ←
14:47:37 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
14:47:38 <bparsia> +1
Bijan Parsia: +1 ←
14:47:40 <pfps> +1
14:47:41 <Achille> +1
Achille Fokoue: +1 ←
14:47:42 <ekw> +1
Evan Wallace: +1 ←
14:47:42 <Zhe> +1
14:47:43 <Carsten> 0
Carsten Lutz: 0 ←
14:47:44 <m_schnei> +1 (like the idea of n-aries *in principle*)
Michael Schneider: +1 (like the idea of n-aries *in principle*) ←
14:47:45 <alanr> 0
Alan Ruttenberg: 0 ←
14:47:52 <uli> +1
Uli Sattler: +1 ←
14:48:31 <bparsia> Is there a preferred wiki location?
Bijan Parsia: Is there a preferred wiki location? ←
14:48:35 <Achille> s/STROLLPOLL/STRAWPOLL
Achille Fokoue: s/STROLLPOLL/STRAWPOLL ←
14:48:37 <ekw> breaking now
Evan Wallace: breaking now ←
14:48:44 <alanr> can you call it "functions" instead of n-ary?
Alan Ruttenberg: can you call it "functions" instead of n-ary? ←
14:48:50 <alanr> people understand former
Alan Ruttenberg: people understand former ←
14:48:51 <Zakim> -Carsten
Zakim IRC Bot: -Carsten ←
14:48:54 <bparsia> They aren't funcitons
Bijan Parsia: They aren't funcitons ←
14:48:57 <bparsia> Data predicates?
Bijan Parsia: Data predicates? ←
14:48:57 <Zakim> -uli
Zakim IRC Bot: -uli ←
14:49:12 <alanr> maybe - let's brainstorm. n-ary is definitely confusing
Alan Ruttenberg: maybe - let's brainstorm. n-ary is definitely confusing ←
14:49:21 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:49:21 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
14:49:23 <Achille> s/separe/separate/
Achille Fokoue: s/separe/separate/ ←
14:49:32 <jar> quantitative constraints?
Jonathan Rees: quantitative constraints? ←
14:50:09 <jar> data constraints?
Jonathan Rees: data constraints? ←
14:51:01 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:51:01 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
15:16:12 <uli> +1 to 'data predicates' (instead of n-ary -- though it might take a while to get used to)
(No events recorded for 25 minutes)
Uli Sattler: +1 to 'data predicates' (instead of n-ary -- though it might take a while to get used to) ←
15:16:16 <msmith> scribenick: msmith
(Scribe set to Michael Smith)
15:16:46 <Zakim> +??P68
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P68 ←
15:16:51 <msmith> ianh: on nary, I understand that a second doc describing nary data types will be produce to same quality as main spec
Ian Horrocks: on nary, I understand that a second doc describing nary data types will be produce to same quality as main spec ←
15:17:04 <msmith> ... on completion wel will consider moving some into main spec
... on completion wel will consider moving some into main spec ←
15:17:29 <msmith> ... based on use cases, implementation support, and specification of "how" to implement (boris' concern)
... based on use cases, implementation support, and specification of "how" to implement (boris' concern) ←
15:17:30 <Zakim> +??P69
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P69 ←
15:17:43 <uli> zakim, ??P69 is me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P69 is me ←
15:17:43 <Zakim> +uli; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it ←
15:17:45 <msmith> ekw: "how" is not in spec, correct?
Evan Wallace: "how" is not in spec, correct? ←
15:17:49 <msmith> ianh: correct
Ian Horrocks: correct ←
15:17:58 <bparsia> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Linear_%28In%29Equations_in_OWL
Bijan Parsia: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Linear_%28In%29Equations_in_OWL ←
15:18:08 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:18:16 <msmith> ianh: everyone agrees.
Ian Horrocks: everyone agrees. ←
15:18:19 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
15:18:19 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
15:19:03 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
15:19:03 <Zakim> bparsia was already muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was already muted, bparsia ←
15:19:07 <msmith> topic: owl full
15:19:16 <msmith> ianh: revisit "axiomatic triples" from yesterday
Ian Horrocks: revisit "axiomatic triples" from yesterday ←
15:20:06 <msmith> ... there is a proposal to resolve ISSUE-116, by saying OWL-R should includes rules for axiomatic triples
... there is a proposal to resolve ISSUE-116, by saying OWL-R should includes rules for axiomatic triples ←
15:20:32 <msmith> m_schnei: we must separate triples from RDFS and those from OWLR
Michael Schneider: we must separate triples from RDFS and those from OWLR ←
15:20:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:20:59 <msmith> ... I think the whole issue was about the "additional" stuff (not the RDFS axiomatic triples)
... I think the whole issue was about the "additional" stuff (not the RDFS axiomatic triples) ←
15:21:26 <Zakim> +dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: +dlm ←
15:21:49 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:22:26 <msmith> alanr: we intend to try to accommodate such axiomatic triples, if you produce them
Alan Ruttenberg: we intend to try to accommodate such axiomatic triples, if you produce them ←
15:22:51 <msmith> ianh: axiomatic triples are the RDFS guys, I suggest making a new issue that says m_schnei wants to extend the ruleset
Ian Horrocks: axiomatic triples are the RDFS guys, I suggest making a new issue that says m_schnei wants to extend the ruleset ←
15:23:09 <msmith> m_schnei: fine with me. I will talk with Ivan, I believe this was his intention
Michael Schneider: fine with me. I will talk with Ivan, I believe this was his intention ←
15:23:24 <msmith> ... this other set of axiomatic triples must be in anyway
... this other set of axiomatic triples must be in anyway ←
15:24:13 <msmith> alanr: there is a proposal that OWL-R is an extension of RDFS, but in order to be true, it must match where?
Alan Ruttenberg: there is a proposal that OWL-R is an extension of RDFS, but in order to be true, it must match where? ←
15:24:32 <msmith> ianh: proposal that we extend ruleset with axiomatic triples with RDFS
Ian Horrocks: proposal that we extend ruleset with axiomatic triples with RDFS ←
15:24:55 <msmith> ... that is what I understand from this issue
... that is what I understand from this issue ←
15:25:26 <msmith> ... lets resolve this ISSUE-116 based on this understanding, then open another issue with more clear difference in interpretation
... lets resolve this ISSUE-116 based on this understanding, then open another issue with more clear difference in interpretation ←
15:25:38 <msmith> m_schnei: example from issue tracker
Michael Schneider: example from issue tracker ←
15:26:37 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:26:52 <msmith> pfps: is triple from example true or false in OWL-R
Peter Patel-Schneider: is triple from example true or false in OWL-R ←
15:27:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:27:44 <msmith> m_schnei: no, because rdf:Property isn't in OWL-R DL
Michael Schneider: no, because rdf:Property isn't in OWL-R DL ←
15:28:26 <msmith> pfps: you're saying its true in OWL 1.0 full semantics?
Peter Patel-Schneider: you're saying its true in OWL 1.0 full semantics? ←
15:28:30 <msmith> m_schnei: yes
Michael Schneider: yes ←
15:28:40 <msmith> pfps: in OWL 1.0 DL?
Peter Patel-Schneider: in OWL 1.0 DL? ←
15:28:49 <msmith> m_schnei: no, rdf:Property isn't there
Michael Schneider: no, rdf:Property isn't there ←
15:28:59 <msmith> pfps: if you do the reverse mapping?
Peter Patel-Schneider: if you do the reverse mapping? ←
15:29:03 <msmith> ... I believe so
... I believe so ←
15:29:15 <IanH> ?
Ian Horrocks: ? ←
15:29:18 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:29:21 <msmith> pfps: therefore it is in OWL-R, therefore we don't need another change
Peter Patel-Schneider: therefore it is in OWL-R, therefore we don't need another change ←
15:29:42 <msmith> alanr: then is the rule implementation sufficient?
Alan Ruttenberg: then is the rule implementation sufficient? ←
15:29:49 <msmith> ... that sounds like the question?
... that sounds like the question? ←
15:31:02 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:31:14 <msmith> m_schnei: if we make OWL-R rules "catch-up" with the semantics of the DL part....(sidetracked)
Michael Schneider: if we make OWL-R rules "catch-up" with the semantics of the DL part....(sidetracked) ←
15:32:03 <msmith> action schnei to clarify what ISSUE-116 is about, considering splitting to clarify
action schnei to clarify what ISSUE-116 is about, considering splitting to clarify ←
15:32:03 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - schnei
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - schnei ←
15:32:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:32:52 <bmotik> ACTION: bmotik2 to Enact the resolution of ISSUE-126 (datatype system) in the spec
ACTION: bmotik2 to Enact the resolution of ISSUE-126 (datatype system) in the spec ←
15:32:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-177 - Enact the resolution of ISSUE-126 (datatype system) in the spec [on Boris Motik - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-177 - Enact the resolution of ISSUE-126 (datatype system) in the spec [on Boris Motik - due 2008-08-05]. ←
15:32:52 <msmith> action schneider to clarify what ISSUE-116 is about, considering splitting to clarify
action schneider to clarify what ISSUE-116 is about, considering splitting to clarify ←
15:32:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-178 - Clarify what ISSUE-116 is about, considering splitting to clarify [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-178 - Clarify what ISSUE-116 is about, considering splitting to clarify [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-08-05]. ←
15:33:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:33:44 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
15:33:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted), ??P68, uli (muted), dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted), ??P68, uli (muted), dlm ←
15:33:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see dlm, vipul, baojie, cgi-irc, Zhe, jar, Achille, m_schnei, bmotik, ekw, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, Carsten, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see dlm, vipul, baojie, cgi-irc, Zhe, jar, Achille, m_schnei, bmotik, ekw, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, ←
15:33:48 <Zakim> ... trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot ←
15:34:02 <msmith> scribe note previous topic was OWL-R issue
scribe note previous topic was OWL-R issue ←
15:34:09 <msmith> topic: OWL Full
15:34:48 <uli> zakim, ??P69 is christine
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P69 is christine ←
15:34:48 <Zakim> I already had ??P69 as uli, uli
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P69 as uli, uli ←
15:34:56 <uli> zakim, ??P68 is christine
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P68 is christine ←
15:34:56 <Zakim> +christine; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +christine; got it ←
15:35:15 <msmith> m_schnei: current state - the semantics are within a wiki page
Michael Schneider: current state - the semantics are within a wiki page ←
15:35:25 <msmith> .... I have started building an editor's draft
.... I have started building an editor's draft ←
15:35:46 <msmith> ... design principle to be close to existing OWL Full draft with minor changes
... design principle to be close to existing OWL Full draft with minor changes ←
15:36:15 <IanH> Looking at: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF_Semantics
Ian Horrocks: Looking at: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF_Semantics ←
15:36:20 <msmith> ... mostly many tables that say "if you have something on left, you get thing on right"
... mostly many tables that say "if you have something on left, you get thing on right" ←
15:36:41 <msmith> ... current state is not all tables are complete
... current state is not all tables are complete ←
15:36:48 <msmith> ... but this is a matter of transfer
... but this is a matter of transfer ←
15:36:55 <sandro> m_schnei seems to be projecting http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/FullDraft
Sandro Hawke: m_schnei seems to be projecting http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/FullDraft ←
15:37:09 <msmith> ... 2 issues
... 2 issues ←
15:37:17 <msmith> ... 1: imports in OWL Full
... 1: imports in OWL Full ←
15:37:28 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←
15:37:29 <msmith> ianh: what's the issue with imports?
Ian Horrocks: what's the issue with imports? ←
15:37:51 <msmith> ... I thought it was logically clear
... I thought it was logically clear ←
15:38:04 <msmith> m_schnei: there are a few things from OWL 1 Full that are not good
Michael Schneider: there are a few things from OWL 1 Full that are not good ←
15:38:18 <msmith> ... e.g., reference to RDF/XML document directly
... e.g., reference to RDF/XML document directly ←
15:38:34 <msmith> ... I'd prefer something closer to model theoretic semantics
... I'd prefer something closer to model theoretic semantics ←
15:39:13 <msmith> ... 2: if URI in owl:import some ontology ... produces a bnode
... 2: if URI in owl:import some ontology ... produces a bnode ←
15:39:43 <msmith> ianh: can't we just do same as previous imports discussion
Ian Horrocks: can't we just do same as previous imports discussion ←
15:40:00 <msmith> m_schnei: no, because triple are triples in OWL Full
Michael Schneider: no, because triple are triples in OWL Full ←
15:40:09 <msmith> pfps: I don't see any issue to fix
Peter Patel-Schneider: I don't see any issue to fix ←
15:40:35 <msmith> pfps: gathering is not part of imports
Peter Patel-Schneider: gathering is not part of imports ←
15:40:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:40:44 <msmith> m_schnei: yes, that's what I'd like
Michael Schneider: yes, that's what I'd like ←
15:41:05 <msmith> ... original definition had way too much about processing, etc.
... original definition had way too much about processing, etc. ←
15:41:17 <msmith> ianh: so you want something cleaner than OWL 1 spec
Ian Horrocks: so you want something cleaner than OWL 1 spec ←
15:41:21 <msmith> ... excellent!
... excellent! ←
15:41:35 <msmith> alanr: we all agree, yes. so recorded
Alan Ruttenberg: we all agree, yes. so recorded ←
15:42:02 <msmith> scribe note, previous 2: was 1a:
scribe note, previous 2: was 1a: ←
15:42:32 <msmith> schnei: 2: there will be some deviation from OWL 1 full regarding relationship between Full and DL
Michael Schneider: 2: there will be some deviation from OWL 1 full regarding relationship between Full and DL ←
15:42:47 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:42:47 <msmith> ... this is yet to be written
... this is yet to be written ←
15:43:19 <msmith> alanr: this will not block first public working draft
Alan Ruttenberg: this will not block first public working draft ←
15:43:31 <msmith> m_schnei: it will be done in 3 weeks
Michael Schneider: it will be done in 3 weeks ←
15:43:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:43:39 <msmith> alanr: would we prefer to freeze it now
Alan Ruttenberg: would we prefer to freeze it now ←
15:43:50 <msmith> ... for review time
... for review time ←
15:44:01 <bparsia> Why do we need a review?
Bijan Parsia: Why do we need a review? ←
15:44:04 <msmith> ianh: who are the reviewers? pfps you are volunteered
Ian Horrocks: who are the reviewers? pfps you are volunteered ←
15:45:08 <msmith> pfps: if i get by aug 20, i can comment by end of that week
Peter Patel-Schneider: if i get by aug 20, i can comment by end of that week ←
15:45:20 <msmith> alanr: to be clear, pfps will be hurdle to publish
Alan Ruttenberg: to be clear, pfps will be hurdle to publish ←
15:45:28 <sandro> trackbot, reload
Sandro Hawke: trackbot, reload ←
15:45:49 <msmith> pfps: if by aug 19th, will be done by aug 22
Peter Patel-Schneider: if by aug 19th, will be done by aug 22 ←
15:45:59 <bparsia> review notes!
Bijan Parsia: review notes! ←
15:46:03 <msmith> alanr: target will be editor notes or issues?
Alan Ruttenberg: target will be editor notes or issues? ←
15:46:08 <bparsia> Not editors notes
Bijan Parsia: Not editors notes ←
15:46:30 <msmith> pfps: I will just fix some things
Peter Patel-Schneider: I will just fix some things ←
15:46:42 <msmith> ... reviewer notes for other things
... reviewer notes for other things ←
15:47:00 <bparsia> {{Review|~~~~ }}
Bijan Parsia: {{Review|~~~~ }} ←
15:47:30 <msmith> m_schnei: I'd like a non-OWL familiar reviewer
Michael Schneider: I'd like a non-OWL familiar reviewer ←
15:47:54 <msmith> s/non-OWL/non-OWL Full details/
s/non-OWL/non-OWL Full details/ ←
15:48:04 <msmith> zhe: I will review on same timespan as pfps
Zhe Wu: I will review on same timespan as pfps ←
15:48:26 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:48:45 <msmith> m_schnei: just look, no particular focus areas
Michael Schneider: just look, no particular focus areas ←
15:50:00 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:50:08 <msmith> alanr: is this a vote to publish under some conditions
Alan Ruttenberg: is this a vote to publish under some conditions ←
15:50:15 <msmith> ianh: defer that a sec
Ian Horrocks: defer that a sec ←
15:50:16 <msmith> ianh: several outstanding owl full issues
Ian Horrocks: several outstanding owl full issues ←
15:50:26 <msmith> ... e.g., ISSUE-119
15:50:33 <msmith> ... is that still a problem
... is that still a problem ←
15:51:02 <msmith> m_schnei: this is closed if we're ok with previously stated deviation from OWL 1
Michael Schneider: this is closed if we're ok with previously stated deviation from OWL 1 ←
15:51:23 <msmith> ianh: part of review is to check that ISSUE-119 is resolved
Ian Horrocks: part of review is to check that ISSUE-119 is resolved ←
15:51:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:51:51 <msmith> alanr: it has been suggested that new semantics are provably coherent. are they?
Alan Ruttenberg: it has been suggested that new semantics are provably coherent. are they? ←
15:52:11 <msmith> m_schnei: there's a good chance. not aiming to do that in time of this wg
Michael Schneider: there's a good chance. not aiming to do that in time of this wg ←
15:52:43 <msmith> ianh: vote to delegate publish decision to reviewers?
Ian Horrocks: vote to delegate publish decision to reviewers? ←
15:52:57 <msmith> alanr: name should be OWL Full Semantics
Alan Ruttenberg: name should be OWL Full Semantics ←
15:54:45 <msmith> alanr: I like "semantics of owl full" and "semantics of owl dl"
Alan Ruttenberg: I like "semantics of owl full" and "semantics of owl dl" ←
15:55:04 <msmith> ianh: we just need some tag for reference
Ian Horrocks: we just need some tag for reference ←
15:55:12 <jar> "owl rdf"?
Jonathan Rees: "owl rdf"? ←
15:55:27 <m_schnei> I have changed the name of the Editior's Draft from "RDF Semantics" to "Full Semantics"
Michael Schneider: I have changed the name of the Editior's Draft from "RDF Semantics" to "Full Semantics" ←
15:55:39 <msmith> ... I prefer some variant of Michael's initial name, something including RDF
... I prefer some variant of Michael's initial name, something including RDF ←
15:55:43 <m_schnei> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Full_Semantics
Michael Schneider: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Full_Semantics ←
15:55:50 <msmith> ianh: RDF compatible semantics
Ian Horrocks: RDF compatible semantics ←
15:56:02 <uli> -1 (to rdf since it would imply that the other is incompatible)
Uli Sattler: -1 (to rdf since it would imply that the other is incompatible) ←
15:56:21 <uli> ..as in incompatible in a strong sense
Uli Sattler: ..as in incompatible in a strong sense ←
15:56:34 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:56:36 <msmith> sandro: +1 to uli
Sandro Hawke: +1 to uli ←
15:56:39 <alanr> ok
Alan Ruttenberg: ok ←
15:56:47 <uli> 'rdf-based semantics'
Uli Sattler: 'rdf-based semantics' ←
15:57:01 <msmith> ianh: +1 to uli
Ian Horrocks: +1 to uli ←
15:57:02 <sandro> +1 RDF-Based Semantics
Sandro Hawke: +1 RDF-Based Semantics ←
15:57:19 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
15:57:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:57:48 <ekw> we wanted short names
Evan Wallace: we wanted short names ←
15:58:32 <msmith> m_schnei: what's new is the new features of OWL
Michael Schneider: what's new is the new features of OWL ←
15:58:54 <msmith> msmith: I don't think what's new should be repeated across docs
Michael Smith: I don't think what's new should be repeated across docs ←
15:59:16 <msmith> ianh: we mean what's new with OWL Full semantics, e.g., this thing about comprehension principles
Ian Horrocks: we mean what's new with OWL Full semantics, e.g., this thing about comprehension principles ←
15:59:58 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF-Based_Semantics as a First Public Working Draft around Sept 1, after some more editorial changes, pending review and approval from PFPS and Zhe.
PROPOSED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF-Based_Semantics as a First Public Working Draft around Sept 1, after some more editorial changes, pending review and approval from PFPS and Zhe. ←
15:59:59 <msmith> ... the previous "sledge-hammer" approach made it problematic to establish consistency
... the previous "sledge-hammer" approach made it problematic to establish consistency ←
16:00:15 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:00:21 <bmotik> +1 Oxford
Boris Motik: +1 Oxford ←
16:00:25 <pfps> +1 Bell Labs
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 Bell Labs ←
16:00:29 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
16:00:35 <Zhe> +1ORACLE
16:00:35 <baojie> 0
16:00:38 <sandro> +1 W3C
Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C ←
16:00:45 <m_schnei> +1 (FZI)
Michael Schneider: +1 (FZI) ←
16:00:47 <msmith> +1
+1 ←
16:00:54 <Achille> +1 IBM
Achille Fokoue: +1 IBM ←
16:01:40 <sandro> ACTION: Jie to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22.
ACTION: Jie to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. ←
16:01:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-179 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Jie Bao - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-179 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Jie Bao - due 2008-08-05]. ←
16:01:50 <uli> +1 manchester
Uli Sattler: +1 manchester ←
16:02:02 <sandro> ACTION: pfps to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22.
ACTION: pfps to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. ←
16:02:02 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps ←
16:02:03 <ekw> +1 NIST
Evan Wallace: +1 NIST ←
16:02:09 <sandro> ACTION: peter to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22.
ACTION: peter to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. ←
16:02:10 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter ←
16:02:10 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase) ←
16:02:18 <Elisa> +1 Sandpiper
Elisa Kendall: +1 Sandpiper ←
16:02:20 <sandro> ACTION: ppatelsc to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22.
ACTION: ppatelsc to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. ←
16:02:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-180 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-180 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05]. ←
16:02:25 <sandro> ACTION: zhe to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22.
ACTION: zhe to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. ←
16:02:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-181 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Zhe Wu - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-181 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Zhe Wu - due 2008-08-05]. ←
16:02:37 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF-Based_Semantics as a First Public Working Draft around Sept 1, after some more editorial changes, pending review and approval from PFPS and Zhe.
RESOLVED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF-Based_Semantics as a First Public Working Draft around Sept 1, after some more editorial changes, pending review and approval from PFPS and Zhe. ←
16:02:54 <msmith> ianh: topic done, thank you m_schnei
Ian Horrocks: topic done, thank you m_schnei ←
16:03:58 <msmith> topic: MOF
16:04:24 <msmith> pha: (presenting slides)
Peter Haase: (presenting slides) ←
16:05:19 <msmith> slides will go to list or wiki soon
slides will go to list or wiki soon ←
16:05:29 <uli> I didn't crumble!
Uli Sattler: I didn't crumble! ←
16:05:47 <uli> thanks, Mike
Uli Sattler: thanks, Mike ←
16:05:48 <IanH> Boris will emial slides to the list
Ian Horrocks: Boris will emial slides to the list ←
16:06:28 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:06:46 <IanH> s/emial/email/
Ian Horrocks: s/emial/email/ ←
16:07:00 <msmith> vipul: as visual syntax UML is useful, but it comes with its own semantics. can you provide guidance
Vipul Kashyap: as visual syntax UML is useful, but it comes with its own semantics. can you provide guidance ←
16:07:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:07:45 <msmith> pha: uml is used on different levels. I'm saying only as visual syntax. having diagram in UML doesn't specify semantics, impact OWL semantics
Peter Haase: uml is used on different levels. I'm saying only as visual syntax. having diagram in UML doesn't specify semantics, impact OWL semantics ←
16:08:08 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:09:43 <msmith> bmotik: example of confusion in OWL 1 - lack of rqmt that about disjoint entities
Boris Motik: example of confusion in OWL 1 - lack of rqmt that about disjoint entities ←
16:09:50 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:09:58 <msmith> ... example, what it means to declare an entity
... example, what it means to declare an entity ←
16:10:25 <msmith> ekw: so structural syntax is what clarifies, not the metamodel
Evan Wallace: so structural syntax is what clarifies, not the metamodel ←
16:10:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:10:39 <msmith> bmotik: this bumps up the precision to the next level
Boris Motik: this bumps up the precision to the next level ←
16:11:07 <bparsia> Matthew Horridge (OWL API author) really valued the current diagrams.
Bijan Parsia: Matthew Horridge (OWL API author) really valued the current diagrams. ←
16:11:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:12:03 <msmith> vipul: this is using metaclass from UML?
Vipul Kashyap: this is using metaclass from UML? ←
16:12:08 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:12:18 <msmith> pha: we're using MOF, a constrained form of UML
Peter Haase: we're using MOF, a constrained form of UML ←
16:12:23 <msmith> ekw: +1 to pha
Evan Wallace: +1 to pha ←
16:13:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:13:36 <msmith> ianh: proposal is to claim consistency and provide MOF
Ian Horrocks: proposal is to claim consistency and provide MOF ←
16:13:45 <bparsia> q+ to ask about incorporating the MOF into the structural spec
Bijan Parsia: q+ to ask about incorporating the MOF into the structural spec ←
16:14:13 <msmith> bmotik: I would switch to same tool as pha to be certain consistency is maintained
Boris Motik: I would switch to same tool as pha to be certain consistency is maintained ←
16:14:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:14:34 <IanH> I do see you Bijan
Ian Horrocks: I do see you Bijan ←
16:14:57 <bparsia> I want to wait until he's done anyway
Bijan Parsia: I want to wait until he's done anyway ←
16:14:59 <bparsia> No worries
Bijan Parsia: No worries ←
16:15:10 <bparsia> ack me
Bijan Parsia: ack me ←
16:15:11 <Zakim> bparsia, you wanted to ask about incorporating the MOF into the structural spec
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia, you wanted to ask about incorporating the MOF into the structural spec ←
16:15:22 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:15:48 <msmith> bijan: I like a lot of what I hear. particularly machine processable definition of non-structural restrictions
Bijan Parsia: I like a lot of what I hear. particularly machine processable definition of non-structural restrictions ←
16:16:02 <msmith> ... do I understand that the machine readable for would be in the structural spec
... do I understand that the machine readable for would be in the structural spec ←
16:16:02 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
16:16:02 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
16:16:07 <msmith> bmotik: yes
Boris Motik: yes ←
16:16:10 <bparsia> ?
Bijan Parsia: ? ←
16:16:21 <msmith> ianh: only change to structual spec would be diagrams
Ian Horrocks: only change to structual spec would be diagrams ←
16:16:24 <bparsia> +1 to appendix
Bijan Parsia: +1 to appendix ←
16:16:28 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:16:47 <msmith> ... where machine readable model goes is another issue
... where machine readable model goes is another issue ←
16:16:58 <msmith> alanr: this is a single ontology or imports closure?
Alan Ruttenberg: this is a single ontology or imports closure? ←
16:17:12 <msmith> bmotik: neither, this is a description of the structural of all ontologies
Boris Motik: neither, this is a description of the structural of all ontologies ←
16:17:17 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:17:23 <bparsia> This could help with teh accessibility of the diagrams
Bijan Parsia: This could help with teh accessibility of the diagrams ←
16:17:37 <msmith> alanr: you mentioned something about integrity constraints on declarations, this is only in imports closure
Alan Ruttenberg: you mentioned something about integrity constraints on declarations, this is only in imports closure ←
16:17:54 <msmith> bmotik: so far this hasn't been specified, we'd have to see if it was possible with OCL
Boris Motik: so far this hasn't been specified, we'd have to see if it was possible with OCL ←
16:18:10 <msmith> ... same with non-structural constraints
... same with non-structural constraints ←
16:18:15 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:18:22 <msmith> ... simpler things would be captured
... simpler things would be captured ←
16:18:26 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:18:47 <msmith> ekw: its a model of OWL, the language
Evan Wallace: its a model of OWL, the language ←
16:18:56 <msmith> alanr: of the syntax of the language?
Alan Ruttenberg: of the syntax of the language? ←
16:19:00 <msmith> bmotik: yes
Boris Motik: yes ←
16:19:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:19:29 <msmith> ianh: not really different than current diagrams, just with an XML representation
Ian Horrocks: not really different than current diagrams, just with an XML representation ←
16:19:46 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:19:47 <msmith> ekw: not quite, its all of those diagrams in a package, modeled, with additional constraints
Evan Wallace: not quite, its all of those diagrams in a package, modeled, with additional constraints ←
16:20:01 <msmith> alanr: it would be great to have a machine readable normative version of OWL language
Alan Ruttenberg: it would be great to have a machine readable normative version of OWL language ←
16:20:24 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:20:25 <msmith> ... I'm concerned we'll have several things like this. structural syntax, rdf doc, xml doc, etc.
... I'm concerned we'll have several things like this. structural syntax, rdf doc, xml doc, etc. ←
16:20:38 <Elisa> There are also additional tools we can use to validate the abstract syntax, and some rules we can apply for naming of things in an abstract syntax, etc. that hopefully would have a positive impact on the language itself
Elisa Kendall: There are also additional tools we can use to validate the abstract syntax, and some rules we can apply for naming of things in an abstract syntax, etc. that hopefully would have a positive impact on the language itself ←
16:20:49 <msmith> ... I'd like something to leverage this to check the consistency of all these bits
... I'd like something to leverage this to check the consistency of all these bits ←
16:21:10 <msmith> ... absent that, I worry that this additional work that uses limited resources
... absent that, I worry that this additional work that uses limited resources ←
16:21:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:21:55 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:21:58 <msmith> vipul: i think its a good idea.
Vipul Kashyap: i think its a good idea. ←
16:22:06 <msmith> bmotik: i don't think it requires a lot of resources
Boris Motik: i don't think it requires a lot of resources ←
16:22:18 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:22:24 <msmith> ... because pha already did it and the diagrams match
... because pha already did it and the diagrams match ←
16:22:38 <msmith> ... one could generate an XML syntax from it
... one could generate an XML syntax from it ←
16:22:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:22:59 <msmith> ... its a possibility
... its a possibility ←
16:23:15 <msmith> pfps: can you produce relaxng instead?
Peter Patel-Schneider: can you produce relaxng instead? ←
16:23:21 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:23:25 <msmith> pha: I'll look
Peter Haase: I'll look ←
16:24:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:24:22 <msmith> bmotik: if you have MOF metamodel of one language and another, you write transformation between the two
Boris Motik: if you have MOF metamodel of one language and another, you write transformation between the two ←
16:24:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:24:42 <msmith> alanr: relaxng might not have a MOF metamodel
Alan Ruttenberg: relaxng might not have a MOF metamodel ←
16:24:46 <bparsia> I wrote a script to go from fucntioanl script to relax-ng
Bijan Parsia: I wrote a script to go from fucntioanl script to relax-ng ←
16:24:51 <ekw> The transformation language that Boris mentioned is called MOF Queries, Views and Transformation (QVT)
Evan Wallace: The transformation language that Boris mentioned is called MOF Queries, Views and Transformation (QVT) ←
16:25:00 <Elisa> this is one of the primary reasons why we developed the ODM metamodels for OWL 1 in the first place, fyi
Elisa Kendall: this is one of the primary reasons why we developed the ODM metamodels for OWL 1 in the first place, fyi ←
16:25:36 <msmith> ianh: I think alan likes MOF as normative, all others as non-normative
Ian Horrocks: I think alan likes MOF as normative, all others as non-normative ←
16:25:43 <msmith> ... any reason to be non-normative
... any reason to be non-normative ←
16:25:51 <msmith> bmotik: can you post xml schema to wiki
Boris Motik: can you post xml schema to wiki ←
16:25:57 <msmith> pha: yes
Peter Haase: yes ←
16:25:59 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:26:46 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:27:08 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
16:27:12 <msmith> msmith: this would make the burden for review higher
Michael Smith: this would make the burden for review higher ←
16:27:24 <Elisa> IBM RSA does have a publication capability so that you can publish an html version that can be "walked", with all of the model elements being alive
Elisa Kendall: IBM RSA does have a publication capability so that you can publish an html version that can be "walked", with all of the model elements being alive ←
16:27:25 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
16:27:25 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
16:27:26 <msmith> bmotik: you would have to install IBM rational architect
Boris Motik: you would have to install IBM rational architect ←
16:27:30 <msmith> pha: or other free tools
Peter Haase: or other free tools ←
16:27:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:27:36 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
16:27:44 <Zakim> -christine
Zakim IRC Bot: -christine ←
16:28:00 <Elisa> There is no need, in other words, for everyone to have IBM RSA in order to examine the MOF implementation
Elisa Kendall: There is no need, in other words, for everyone to have IBM RSA in order to examine the MOF implementation ←
16:28:13 <alanr> http://www.tucs.fi/publications/attachment.php?fname=TR606.pdf
Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.tucs.fi/publications/attachment.php?fname=TR606.pdf ←
16:28:24 <alanr> In this paper, we study the relation between
Alan Ruttenberg: In this paper, we study the relation between ←
16:28:25 <alanr> context-free (Backus-Naur Form) grammars and Meta Object Facility metamodels
Alan Ruttenberg: context-free (Backus-Naur Form) grammars and Meta Object Facility metamodels ←
16:28:25 <alanr> and identify when and how we can convert a grammar to a metamodel and a meta-
Alan Ruttenberg: and identify when and how we can convert a grammar to a metamodel and a meta- ←
16:28:25 <alanr> model to a grammar. An example of this mapping for a subset of Java is shown
Alan Ruttenberg: model to a grammar. An example of this mapping for a subset of Java is shown ←
16:28:38 <msmith> bparsia: even if we have other constraints in MOF, not all constraints will be there.
Bijan Parsia: even if we have other constraints in MOF, not all constraints will be there. ←
16:28:46 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:28:53 <msmith> ... and down-translation to other syntaxes will probably lose some restrictions
... and down-translation to other syntaxes will probably lose some restrictions ←
16:29:00 <ekw> It constraints are expressed as OCL in the MOF model then there would be some extra review burden
Evan Wallace: It constraints are expressed as OCL in the MOF model then there would be some extra review burden ←
16:29:07 <msmith> bmotik: some things are easier written in english
Boris Motik: some things are easier written in english ←
16:29:09 <ekw> s/It/If/
Evan Wallace: s/It/If/ ←
16:29:17 <msmith> alanr: but comparison is work
Alan Ruttenberg: but comparison is work ←
16:30:05 <msmith> bmotik: review would be only slightly more than now
Boris Motik: review would be only slightly more than now ←
16:30:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:30:19 <msmith> alanr: diagrams are noise, I look at documents and frammar
Alan Ruttenberg: diagrams are noise, I look at documents and frammar ←
16:30:24 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:30:35 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
16:30:35 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
16:31:05 <bparsia> I don't mind a normative appendix which is: the MOF + a list of addtional constraints in english
Bijan Parsia: I don't mind a normative appendix which is: the MOF + a list of addtional constraints in english ←
16:31:17 <msmith> msmith: what is normative, the MOF or the structural spec document?
Michael Smith: what is normative, the MOF or the structural spec document? ←
16:31:27 <bparsia> As I understand it, the diagrams are normative
Bijan Parsia: As I understand it, the diagrams are normative ←
16:31:40 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:31:42 <msmith> ekw: this doesn't change things because the diagrams are in the normative structural spec
Evan Wallace: this doesn't change things because the diagrams are in the normative structural spec ←
16:32:01 <msmith> alanr: we must say if/when there is an error which document is normative
Alan Ruttenberg: we must say if/when there is an error which document is normative ←
16:32:19 <msmith> ... I assume the winner will be the text
... I assume the winner will be the text ←
16:32:27 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:32:48 <msmith> ... this is separate from MOF metamodel to the extent that it competes for limited resources
... this is separate from MOF metamodel to the extent that it competes for limited resources ←
16:33:03 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:33:19 <msmith> bmotik: diagrams are in spec now (as normative)
Boris Motik: diagrams are in spec now (as normative) ←
16:33:47 <msmith> ... diagrams specify normative structure
... diagrams specify normative structure ←
16:33:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:34:06 <msmith> ... functional style spec is different because we wanted it to be
... functional style spec is different because we wanted it to be ←
16:34:27 <msmith> pfps: any document has duplication, why try to remove this type of duplication
Peter Patel-Schneider: any document has duplication, why try to remove this type of duplication ←
16:34:35 <Elisa> what we did for common logic, to assist in addressing this, was to include the ebnf on every diagram in the ODM
Elisa Kendall: what we did for common logic, to assist in addressing this, was to include the ebnf on every diagram in the ODM ←
16:34:45 <msmith> alanr: that the diagrams and the syntax are different is of concern
Alan Ruttenberg: that the diagrams and the syntax are different is of concern ←
16:34:56 <Elisa> we were able to show a 1-1 correspondence between the ebnf and the MOF metamodel
Elisa Kendall: we were able to show a 1-1 correspondence between the ebnf and the MOF metamodel ←
16:35:10 <msmith> m_schnei: diagrams and bnf are complementary
Michael Schneider: diagrams and bnf are complementary ←
16:36:02 <msmith> ... a 1:1 between a MOF and bnf is a surprise to me
... a 1:1 between a MOF and bnf is a surprise to me ←
16:36:04 <msmith> ianh: me too
Ian Horrocks: me too ←
16:36:16 <ekw> elisa - do you mean the different representations in the CL spec were isomorphic?
Evan Wallace: elisa - do you mean the different representations in the CL spec were isomorphic? ←
16:36:23 <sandro> (This must be a constrained form of BNF, eg where Order Never Matters.)
Sandro Hawke: (This must be a constrained form of BNF, eg where Order Never Matters.) ←
16:36:24 <msmith> bmotik: you want MOF precisely so you can avoid ordering issues
Boris Motik: you want MOF precisely so you can avoid ordering issues ←
16:36:36 <bparsia> Abstract syntax
Bijan Parsia: Abstract syntax ←
16:36:38 <bparsia> Not concrete syntax
Bijan Parsia: Not concrete syntax ←
16:36:45 <msmith> alanr: but syntax is about order
Alan Ruttenberg: but syntax is about order ←
16:37:01 <Elisa> yes, but also we were able to be very precise because the language was simple, and order was less important aside from parameters for certain expressions
Elisa Kendall: yes, but also we were able to be very precise because the language was simple, and order was less important aside from parameters for certain expressions ←
16:37:06 <msmith> sandro: RIF went down the unified mgmt path, but abandoned it as too much work
Sandro Hawke: RIF went down the unified mgmt path, but abandoned it as too much work ←
16:37:36 <uli> q+
Uli Sattler: q+ ←
16:37:42 <msmith> ... this is a parallelizable problem, someone can be responsible for making the MOF track
... this is a parallelizable problem, someone can be responsible for making the MOF track ←
16:37:54 <msmith> ianh: we already have the MOF model, informally and as diagrams
Ian Horrocks: we already have the MOF model, informally and as diagrams ←
16:38:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:38:31 <bparsia> That's my understanding
Bijan Parsia: That's my understanding ←
16:38:40 <uli> zakim, ack me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ack me ←
16:38:40 <Zakim> unmuting uli
Zakim IRC Bot: unmuting uli ←
16:38:42 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
Zakim IRC Bot: I see no one on the speaker queue ←
16:38:48 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:38:51 <bparsia> Not "automatically", but Matthew has much praised the diagrams
Bijan Parsia: Not "automatically", but Matthew has much praised the diagrams ←
16:38:59 <alanr> I am so on your side!
Alan Ruttenberg: I am so on your side! ←
16:39:02 <msmith> ... the only change is a serialization that can be used directly, not just as diagrams
... the only change is a serialization that can be used directly, not just as diagrams ←
16:39:03 <alanr> I want them to be normative
Alan Ruttenberg: I want them to be normative ←
16:39:05 <Elisa> one can actually generate the api automatically from the MOF model, in fact
Elisa Kendall: one can actually generate the api automatically from the MOF model, in fact ←
16:39:15 <ekw> So there is a benefit to goal with the burden
Evan Wallace: So there is a benefit to goal with the burden ←
16:39:26 <msmith> uli: many people have found MOF to be very useful
Uli Sattler: many people have found MOF to be very useful ←
16:39:37 <msmith> alanr: I agree with Uli
Alan Ruttenberg: I agree with Uli ←
16:39:44 <msmith> ianh: what about normativity?
Ian Horrocks: what about normativity? ←
16:39:46 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:39:55 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
16:39:55 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
16:40:16 <Elisa> in order to standardize the mof metamodel, there is actually more work that would need to be done to document the contents properly, validate it, etc., fyi
Elisa Kendall: in order to standardize the mof metamodel, there is actually more work that would need to be done to document the contents properly, validate it, etc., fyi ←
16:40:28 <msmith> bmotik: I would like spec to say something like structure is described in these diagrams, which matches this MOF, plus some additional constraints
Boris Motik: I would like spec to say something like structure is described in these diagrams, which matches this MOF, plus some additional constraints ←
16:40:34 <msmith> ... that's the normative part
... that's the normative part ←
16:40:56 <msmith> ... the structural syntax would have a translation from the MOF
... the structural syntax would have a translation from the MOF ←
16:40:59 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:41:15 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
16:41:18 <msmith> ... and if necessary, the structural syntax would be subordinate
... and if necessary, the structural syntax would be subordinate ←
16:41:27 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:41:33 <bparsia> ack me
Bijan Parsia: ack me ←
16:41:51 <msmith> alanr: I would say document is normative
Alan Ruttenberg: I would say document is normative ←
16:42:07 <Elisa> there are conventions at OMG for documenting these things, including the model files as part of the normative specification, and so forth, which you would want to provide if you were to go this route...
Elisa Kendall: there are conventions at OMG for documenting these things, including the model files as part of the normative specification, and so forth, which you would want to provide if you were to go this route... ←
16:42:41 <msmith> alanr: the normative description would be XML description of MOF metamodel plus additional restrictions that can't be expressed in that model, then provide a syntax for providing text from the model
Alan Ruttenberg: the normative description would be XML description of MOF metamodel plus additional restrictions that can't be expressed in that model, then provide a syntax for providing text from the model ←
16:42:44 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:42:57 <Elisa> we could entertain working together with the OMG ontology PSIG, since Evan and I co-chair that group, to support this, but I'm not sure we can support the publication timeline
Elisa Kendall: we could entertain working together with the OMG ontology PSIG, since Evan and I co-chair that group, to support this, but I'm not sure we can support the publication timeline ←
16:43:05 <msmith> bmotik: you can make diagrams normative, because MOF has a standard visual syntax
Boris Motik: you can make diagrams normative, because MOF has a standard visual syntax ←
16:43:21 <alanr> diagrams *could* be normative. I just don't want them to be.
Alan Ruttenberg: diagrams *could* be normative. I just don't want them to be. ←
16:43:40 <msmith> ... regarding generation, I don't think you can generate the functional syntax because it is slightly different (e.g., not fully typed)
... regarding generation, I don't think you can generate the functional syntax because it is slightly different (e.g., not fully typed) ←
16:43:50 <bparsia> How about replacing the functional syntax with xml syntax?
Bijan Parsia: How about replacing the functional syntax with xml syntax? ←
16:43:55 <msmith> ... normative part is translation
... normative part is translation ←
16:44:04 <bparsia> One fewer syntax, closer alignment, more W3Cy
Bijan Parsia: One fewer syntax, closer alignment, more W3Cy ←
16:44:17 <Elisa> the XMI may be more verbose than you would want ...
Elisa Kendall: the XMI may be more verbose than you would want ... ←
16:44:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:44:35 <msmith> ... say something like and ontology can be serialized in functional syntax and back to structural form without and structural changes
... say something like and ontology can be serialized in functional syntax and back to structural form without and structural changes ←
16:45:04 <msmith> alanr: we agree on utility, we need to think about presentation to users
Alan Ruttenberg: we agree on utility, we need to think about presentation to users ←
16:45:24 <alanr> is there a way to annotate these models?
Alan Ruttenberg: is there a way to annotate these models? ←
16:45:46 <msmith> elisa: there is more documentation that goes with metamodel and needs to be very precise
Elisa Kendall: there is more documentation that goes with metamodel and needs to be very precise ←
16:45:46 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:45:55 <msmith> ... text has very specific form and is normative
... text has very specific form and is normative ←
16:45:55 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
16:45:55 <Zakim> uli was already muted, uli
Zakim IRC Bot: uli was already muted, uli ←
16:46:07 <msmith> ... in addition to XMI, etc.
... in addition to XMI, etc. ←
16:46:20 <alanr> would seem that the MOF specification + MOF Metamodel would be sufficient for us
Alan Ruttenberg: would seem that the MOF specification + MOF Metamodel would be sufficient for us ←
16:46:52 <msmith> ... what Elisa, Evan have suggested to pha is that much of this additional work happen at OMG, so that it doesn't need to fit in W3 timeline
... what Elisa, Evan have suggested to pha is that much of this additional work happen at OMG, so that it doesn't need to fit in W3 timeline ←
16:47:09 <alanr> but there should be a clear advantage to having the work be part of our WG
Alan Ruttenberg: but there should be a clear advantage to having the work be part of our WG ←
16:47:14 <alanr> versus OMG work
Alan Ruttenberg: versus OMG work ←
16:47:40 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:48:07 <msmith> ... synchronization not an issue. I caution that there is much additional work that needs to be done to make it as useful as you'd like
... synchronization not an issue. I caution that there is much additional work that needs to be done to make it as useful as you'd like ←
16:48:14 <msmith> s/you'd/we'd/
s/you'd/we'd/ ←
16:48:18 <msmith> pfps: what work
Peter Patel-Schneider: what work ←
16:48:31 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:48:47 <msmith> elisa: documentation, naming, validity, etc.
Elisa Kendall: documentation, naming, validity, etc. ←
16:49:07 <msmith> pfps: that's not work for us, that's work for OMG
Peter Patel-Schneider: that's not work for us, that's work for OMG ←
16:49:24 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:49:36 <msmith> ... if you want to add a bunch of additional information we don't need, that's something different
... if you want to add a bunch of additional information we don't need, that's something different ←
16:50:09 <msmith> alanr: everyone sleep on this issue
Alan Ruttenberg: everyone sleep on this issue ←
16:50:16 <msmith> ... we will revisit it
... we will revisit it ←
16:50:41 <msmith> topic: structural consistency of literal
16:50:47 <msmith> s/literal/literals/
s/literal/literals/ ←
16:51:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:51:44 <msmith> bmotik: suggestion is to keep it as with rest of language. structurally equivalent if parts are equivalent. in this case parts are lexical form and datatype
Boris Motik: suggestion is to keep it as with rest of language. structurally equivalent if parts are equivalent. in this case parts are lexical form and datatype ←
16:52:19 <msmith> ... e.g., if you 2.0^^xsd:float you shouldn't change it to 2^^xsd:integer
... e.g., if you 2.0^^xsd:float you shouldn't change it to 2^^xsd:integer ←
16:52:29 <msmith> alanr: I don't want anything to change what I give it
Alan Ruttenberg: I don't want anything to change what I give it ←
16:52:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:53:04 <ekw> Process check: what is the new agenda?
Evan Wallace: Process check: what is the new agenda? ←
16:53:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:53:52 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:54:08 <msmith> bmotik: a tool may choose to replace a constant with an alternative constant for the same interpretation
Boris Motik: a tool may choose to replace a constant with an alternative constant for the same interpretation ←
16:54:15 <msmith> ianh: this surprises me
Ian Horrocks: this surprises me ←
16:54:21 <bparsia> RDF doesn't require this
Bijan Parsia: RDF doesn't require this ←
16:54:54 <msmith> msmith: example of structural changes allowed by current spec
Michael Smith: example of structural changes allowed by current spec ←
16:54:55 <bparsia> Indeed, having some normalization permitted is generally cited as desirable
Bijan Parsia: Indeed, having some normalization permitted is generally cited as desirable ←
16:55:47 <msmith> bmotik: this is to address whether it is a rqmt that tools don't change e.g., 2.3100 to 2.31
Boris Motik: this is to address whether it is a rqmt that tools don't change e.g., 2.3100 to 2.31 ←
16:55:54 <msmith> alanr: That should be a rqmt
Alan Ruttenberg: That should be a rqmt ←
16:56:00 <bparsia> I oppose this requriement
Bijan Parsia: I oppose this requriement ←
16:56:25 <msmith> bmotik: structural equivalence should be based on text and datatype
Boris Motik: structural equivalence should be based on text and datatype ←
16:56:28 <alanr> then say what structure equivalent is and handle all the cases.
Alan Ruttenberg: then say what structure equivalent is and handle all the cases. ←
16:56:36 <msmith> .... e.g., 2.0 is different from 2
.... e.g., 2.0 is different from 2 ←
16:57:00 <bparsia> The requirement to preserve lexical forms is very tool, audience, and circumstance dependant
Bijan Parsia: The requirement to preserve lexical forms is very tool, audience, and circumstance dependant ←
16:57:17 <bparsia> (I often like it, but it's really not universal.)
Bijan Parsia: (I often like it, but it's really not universal.) ←
16:57:31 <msmith> alanr: we define structural equivalence and that is all. we have no change. so recorded
Alan Ruttenberg: we define structural equivalence and that is all. we have no change. so recorded ←
16:57:34 <dlm> \so on logistics, what time should we call back in?
Deborah McGuinness: \so on logistics, what time should we call back in? ←
16:57:34 <uli> ...and I wouldn't be able to draw a line between 'structural equivalence' and 'semantics equivalence'
Uli Sattler: ...and I wouldn't be able to draw a line between 'structural equivalence' and 'semantics equivalence' ←
16:57:43 <msmith> break for lunch now
break for lunch now ←
16:57:52 <sandro> Topic: Lunch
16:58:00 <uli> bye for now
Uli Sattler: bye for now ←
16:58:10 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
16:58:10 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
16:58:11 <Zakim> -uli
Zakim IRC Bot: -uli ←
16:59:21 <ekw> we will re-convene in an hour, 1st topic will be Quickstart
Evan Wallace: we will re-convene in an hour, 1st topic will be Quickstart ←
16:59:43 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←
17:01:26 <Zakim> -dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: -dlm ←
17:09:53 <Zakim> -bparsia
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -bparsia ←
17:47:55 <bparsia> 13:00 - 14:00 Lunch
Scribe problem: the name '13' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Ian Horrocks Michael Smith Peter Haase Carsten Lutz Trackbot IRC Bot Zhe Wu Deborah McGuinness Achille Fokoue Uli Sattler RRSAgent IRC Bot Jie Bao Zakim IRC Bot Sandro Hawke Miroslav Vacura Boris Motik Bijan Parsia Alan Ruttenberg Vipul Kashyap Peter Patel-Schneider Michael Schneider Jonathan Rees Elisa Kendall Evan Wallace Christine Golbreich . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.
(No events recorded for 38 minutes)
Unknown 13: 00 - 14:00 Lunch [ Scribe Assist by Bijan Parsia ] ←
17:47:56 <bparsia> 14:50 - 15:45
Scribe problem: the name '14' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Ian Horrocks Michael Smith Peter Haase Carsten Lutz Trackbot IRC Bot Zhe Wu Deborah McGuinness Achille Fokoue Uli Sattler RRSAgent IRC Bot Jie Bao Zakim IRC Bot Sandro Hawke Miroslav Vacura Boris Motik Bijan Parsia Alan Ruttenberg Vipul Kashyap Peter Patel-Schneider Michael Schneider Jonathan Rees Elisa Kendall Evan Wallace Christine Golbreich . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.
Unknown 14: 50 - 15:45 [ Scribe Assist by Bijan Parsia ] ←
17:57:58 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
(No events recorded for 10 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←
17:58:54 <Zakim> +dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: +dlm ←
18:00:10 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
18:00:18 <bparsia> zakim, ??p3 is me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??p3 is me ←
18:00:18 <Zakim> +bparsia; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bparsia; got it ←
18:01:27 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:01:27 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
18:03:54 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
18:03:54 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:03:54 <alanr> bijan?
Alan Ruttenberg: bijan? ←
18:03:57 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
18:04:24 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:04:24 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
18:04:32 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:04:32 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
18:04:36 <IanH> scribenik: pha
Scribe problem: the name 'scribenik' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Miroslav Vacura Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Carsten Lutz Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown scribenik: pha [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ] ←
18:04:59 <pha> topic: quick reference
18:05:19 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:05:19 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
18:05:24 <IanH> ScribeNick: pha
(Scribe set to Peter Haase)
18:05:50 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
18:05:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, Elisa_Kendall, dlm, bparsia (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, Elisa_Kendall, dlm, bparsia (muted) ←
18:05:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see ekw, m_schnei, jar, Zhe, bmotik, Elisa, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ekw, m_schnei, jar, Zhe, bmotik, Elisa, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, ←
18:05:54 <Zakim> ... trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot ←
18:06:19 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Quick_Reference_Guide
Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Quick_Reference_Guide ←
18:07:03 <pha> elisa: snapshot to show where are headed
Elisa Kendall: snapshot to show where are headed ←
18:07:48 <bparsia> Syntax is the right place to link
Bijan Parsia: Syntax is the right place to link ←
18:07:48 <pha> ... section 3: 4 column approach, additional column with example
... section 3: 4 column approach, additional column with example ←
18:08:08 <pha> ... trying to get a sense whether this is the right approach
... trying to get a sense whether this is the right approach ←
18:08:51 <dlm> the plan is also to have a printable version somewhat along the lines of http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/_file_directory_/resources/94.pdf
Deborah McGuinness: the plan is also to have a printable version somewhat along the lines of http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/_file_directory_/resources/94.pdf ←
18:09:29 <pha> ... will need to point/link to the other documents, need tags in those
... will need to point/link to the other documents, need tags in those ←
18:09:53 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:10:33 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:11:05 <dlm> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-owl-features-20040210/#s2
Deborah McGuinness: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-owl-features-20040210/#s2 ←
18:11:32 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:11:32 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
18:11:36 <alanr> ack bparsia
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bparsia ←
18:11:55 <pha> bijan: fewer headers, more compact
Bijan Parsia: fewer headers, more compact ←
18:12:35 <pha> ... link to structural specification for examples
... link to structural specification for examples ←
18:12:45 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:12:45 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
18:13:04 <pha> pfps: seems to be very extensive, not compact
Peter Patel-Schneider: seems to be very extensive, not compact ←
18:13:17 <bparsia> My understanding is that it *is* something like this: http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/_file_directory_/resources/94.pdf
Bijan Parsia: My understanding is that it *is* something like this: http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/_file_directory_/resources/94.pdf ←
18:13:34 <bparsia> +1 to peter and alan
Bijan Parsia: +1 to peter and alan ←
18:13:38 <pha> alan: ultimate format is reference card, pay attention to that
Alan Ruttenberg: ultimate format is reference card, pay attention to that ←
18:13:38 <bparsia> CSS could do it
Bijan Parsia: CSS could do it ←
18:14:14 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:14:21 <pha> elisa: a lot of work, this approach is easier to start
Elisa Kendall: a lot of work, this approach is easier to start ←
18:14:28 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:14:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:15:06 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:15:06 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
18:15:11 <alanr> ack bparsia
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bparsia ←
18:15:45 <pha> bijan: there is not a lot of room on quick reference card, should not be lighter version of struct. spec
Bijan Parsia: there is not a lot of room on quick reference card, should not be lighter version of struct. spec ←
18:15:46 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:15:52 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:16:20 <pha> elisa: some of it due to lack of wiki knowledge
Elisa Kendall: some of it due to lack of wiki knowledge ←
18:16:41 <pha> ... thought should be similar to overview document
... thought should be similar to overview document ←
18:17:07 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:17:07 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
18:17:49 <pha> pfps: if it is not a reference card, you failed
Peter Patel-Schneider: if it is not a reference card, you failed ←
18:19:02 <pha> alan: stay away from wiki, use whatever and write it there, with the ultimate format in mind
Alan Ruttenberg: stay away from wiki, use whatever and write it there, with the ultimate format in mind ←
18:20:22 <pha> alan: when could you have pdf file?
Alan Ruttenberg: when could you have pdf file? ←
18:20:22 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
18:21:10 <pha> ... do we need all three syntaxes?
... do we need all three syntaxes? ←
18:21:41 <pha> elisa: does not work for me, can try to find somebody
Elisa Kendall: does not work for me, can try to find somebody ←
18:21:58 <pha> ... end of august more realistic
... end of august more realistic ←
18:22:55 <pha> elisa: september 3rd earliest to produce pdf
Elisa Kendall: september 3rd earliest to produce pdf ←
18:23:05 <pha> dlm: ok, realistic
Deborah McGuinness: ok, realistic ←
18:23:55 <pha> alan: get it out in first week of september, then review, working draft second week of september
Alan Ruttenberg: get it out in first week of september, then review, working draft second week of september ←
18:24:32 <bparsia> We can move it to owled
Bijan Parsia: We can move it to owled ←
18:24:37 <bparsia> or otherwise capture it
Bijan Parsia: or otherwise capture it ←
18:25:03 <pha> evan: make it not rec track?
Evan Wallace: make it not rec track? ←
18:25:18 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:25:22 <pha> alan: has not been decided yet
Alan Ruttenberg: has not been decided yet ←
18:25:22 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:25:22 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
18:26:13 <pha> ian: probably not in the set of documents for last call at next F2F
Ian Horrocks: probably not in the set of documents for last call at next F2F ←
18:26:38 <dlm> potential cut - annotation properties (suggestion from alan)
Deborah McGuinness: potential cut - annotation properties (suggestion from alan) ←
18:26:42 <dlm> +q
Deborah McGuinness: +q ←
18:26:43 <pfps> I've been viewing the document and one problem that I see is that the formatting is very bad - it changes significantly as the width of the display changes.
Peter Patel-Schneider: I've been viewing the document and one problem that I see is that the formatting is very bad - it changes significantly as the width of the display changes. ←
18:27:06 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
18:27:25 <pha> alan: if all the content would be in pdf in beginning of september, reviews positive, then it might fit
Alan Ruttenberg: if all the content would be in pdf in beginning of september, reviews positive, then it might fit ←
18:27:38 <alanr> ack dlm
Alan Ruttenberg: ack dlm ←
18:28:20 <pha> dlm: if we cut the content, then time is less an issue
Deborah McGuinness: if we cut the content, then time is less an issue ←
18:28:27 <pha> ... might be realistic
... might be realistic ←
18:28:51 <pha> alan: will try to get it into working draft quickly
Alan Ruttenberg: will try to get it into working draft quickly ←
18:29:30 <sandro> Alan: We're expecting a reasonably complete PDF in the first week of September.
Alan Ruttenberg: We're expecting a reasonably complete PDF in the first week of September. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:30:06 <pha> action: elisa to produce pdf document first week of september
ACTION: elisa to produce pdf document first week of september ←
18:30:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-182 - to produce pdf document first week of september [on Elisa Kendall - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-182 - to produce pdf document first week of september [on Elisa Kendall - due 2008-08-05]. ←
18:30:13 <pha> action: dlm to produce pdf document first week of september
ACTION: dlm to produce pdf document first week of september ←
18:30:13 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - dlm
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - dlm ←
18:30:14 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
18:30:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, Elisa_Kendall, dlm, bparsia, ??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, Elisa_Kendall, dlm, bparsia, ??P4 ←
18:30:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, Elisa, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, Elisa, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, ←
18:30:18 <Zakim> ... trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot ←
18:30:35 <IanH> zakim, ??P4 is cgolbrei
Ian Horrocks: zakim, ??P4 is cgolbrei ←
18:30:35 <Zakim> +cgolbrei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgolbrei; got it ←
18:30:46 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←
18:31:08 <pha> action: deborah to produce pdf document first week of september
ACTION: deborah to produce pdf document first week of september ←
18:31:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-183 - Produce pdf document first week of september [on Deborah McGuinness - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-183 - Produce pdf document first week of september [on Deborah McGuinness - due 2008-08-05]. ←
18:31:18 <Zakim> -cgolbrei
Zakim IRC Bot: -cgolbrei ←
18:31:41 <ekw> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/
Evan Wallace: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/ ←
18:31:55 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
18:32:01 <pha> Topic: requirements
18:32:23 <IanH> zakim, ??P1 is cgolbrei
Ian Horrocks: zakim, ??P1 is cgolbrei ←
18:32:23 <Zakim> +cgolbrei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgolbrei; got it ←
18:33:51 <pha> alan: there are two versions, frozen and subsequent
Alan Ruttenberg: there are two versions, frozen and subsequent ←
18:34:35 <pha> evan: this is an evolved version
Evan Wallace: this is an evolved version ←
18:35:27 <pha> ... which way to organize requirements? use case? language feature?
... which way to organize requirements? use case? language feature? ←
18:35:37 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:36:18 <pha> vipul: there does not need to be a choice
Vipul Kashyap: there does not need to be a choice ←
18:36:18 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:36:22 <Zakim> -dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: -dlm ←
18:36:50 <pha> ... goal is to provide a motivation
... goal is to provide a motivation ←
18:37:06 <Zakim> + +1.518.608.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.608.aabb ←
18:37:12 <baojie> q+
18:37:22 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:37:26 <pha> ... What applications is OWL useful for?
... What applications is OWL useful for? ←
18:37:43 <dlm> +1518608aabb is dlm
Deborah McGuinness: +1518608aabb is dlm ←
18:37:47 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
18:37:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia, cgolbrei, +1.518.608.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia, cgolbrei, +1.518.608.aabb ←
18:37:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
18:38:00 <pha> evan: new section 2 would be domain, applications, stake holders
Evan Wallace: new section 2 would be domain, applications, stake holders ←
18:38:07 <IanH> Who is calling in from 518.608?
Ian Horrocks: Who is calling in from 518.608? ←
18:38:19 <pha> ... then use cases, requirements, features
... then use cases, requirements, features ←
18:38:22 <bparsia> ack me
Bijan Parsia: ack me ←
18:38:24 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:38:56 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
18:38:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia, cgolbrei, +1.518.608.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia, cgolbrei, +1.518.608.aabb ←
18:38:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
18:39:08 <pha> bijan: getting large and complicated, hoping for something closer to OWL 1 overview
Bijan Parsia: getting large and complicated, hoping for something closer to OWL 1 overview ←
18:39:11 <IanH> zakim, aabb is dlm
Ian Horrocks: zakim, aabb is dlm ←
18:39:11 <Zakim> +dlm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dlm; got it ←
18:39:14 <cgolbrei> +q
Christine Golbreich: +q ←
18:39:30 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
18:39:41 <pha> ... not sure how helpful it is to have all these details
... not sure how helpful it is to have all these details ←
18:39:43 <vipul> q+
Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←
18:39:46 <alanr> ack baojie
Alan Ruttenberg: ack baojie ←
18:40:03 <bparsia> It's 33 pages by my printer :(
Bijan Parsia: It's 33 pages by my printer :( ←
18:40:18 <pha> jie: is there usecase for scalability?
Jie Bao: is there usecase for scalability? ←
18:40:19 <cgolbrei> version 2 shorter
Christine Golbreich: version 2 shorter ←
18:40:45 <bparsia> What?
Bijan Parsia: What? ←
18:40:52 <pha> evan: hoping to get input for usecases
Evan Wallace: hoping to get input for usecases ←
18:40:57 <bparsia> Usecase for all the profiles?
Bijan Parsia: Usecase for all the profiles? ←
18:41:09 <pha> ... in particular for OWL R, DL Lite
... in particular for OWL R, DL Lite ←
18:41:21 <bparsia> -1 to the web applications point
Bijan Parsia: -1 to the web applications point ←
18:41:32 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:41:33 <vipul> Agree with shortening Version 2 by moving use cases to Section 3
Vipul Kashyap: Agree with shortening Version 2 by moving use cases to Section 3 ←
18:41:35 <pha> alan: jie should be on requirements WG
Alan Ruttenberg: jie should be on requirements WG ←
18:41:41 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
18:41:43 <cgolbrei> +q
Christine Golbreich: +q ←
18:41:59 <pha> alan: charter talks about requirements
Alan Ruttenberg: charter talks about requirements ←
18:42:09 <bparsia> q+ to dig in his heels against the blow up of scope of this document
Bijan Parsia: q+ to dig in his heels against the blow up of scope of this document ←
18:42:12 <pha> evan: no, requirements and use cases
Evan Wallace: no, requirements and use cases ←
18:42:24 <bparsia> Link for version 2?
Bijan Parsia: Link for version 2? ←
18:42:59 <alanr> Requirements:
Scribe problem: the name 'Requirements' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Miroslav Vacura Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Carsten Lutz Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown Requirements: [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←
18:42:59 <alanr> A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1.
Alan Ruttenberg: A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1. ←
18:43:00 <bparsia> Charter:
Scribe problem: the name 'Charter' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Miroslav Vacura Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Carsten Lutz Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown Charter: [ Scribe Assist by Bijan Parsia ] ←
18:43:01 <bparsia> Requirements:
Scribe problem: the name 'Requirements' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Miroslav Vacura Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Carsten Lutz Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown Requirements: [ Scribe Assist by Bijan Parsia ] ←
18:43:01 <bparsia> A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1.
Bijan Parsia: A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1. ←
18:43:03 <vipul> I meant Section 2
Vipul Kashyap: I meant Section 2 ←
18:43:07 <alanr> jinx
Alan Ruttenberg: jinx ←
18:43:09 <alanr> :)
Alan Ruttenberg: :) ←
18:43:27 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:43:37 <sandro> ack cgolbrei
Sandro Hawke: ack cgolbrei ←
18:43:40 <sandro> ack alanr
Sandro Hawke: ack alanr ←
18:44:15 <pha> alan: more historical perspective: why did we introduce new features
Alan Ruttenberg: more historical perspective: why did we introduce new features ←
18:45:26 <cgolbrei> history not very helpful for user
Christine Golbreich: history not very helpful for user ←
18:45:26 <baojie> Summarize my question, more use cases for 1) web applications 2) scalability
Jie Bao: Summarize my question, more use cases for 1) web applications 2) scalability ←
18:45:51 <alanr> christine, but our charter says what we wanted to accomplish
Alan Ruttenberg: christine, but our charter says what we wanted to accomplish ←
18:45:58 <pha> vipul: secton 2 can be shortened, use case moved to section 3
Vipul Kashyap: secton 2 can be shortened, use case moved to section 3 ←
18:46:04 <alanr> it should do at least that
Alan Ruttenberg: it should do at least that ←
18:46:11 <pha> ... need to talk about applications, stake holders
... need to talk about applications, stake holders ←
18:46:37 <cgolbrei> better understand motivations + UCs = kind of example/guidelines for use
Christine Golbreich: better understand motivations + UCs = kind of example/guidelines for use ←
18:46:53 <pha> ... missing things like semantic email
... missing things like semantic email ←
18:47:22 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:47:28 <alanr> ack vipul
Alan Ruttenberg: ack vipul ←
18:47:29 <pha> ... applications that already use OWL 2 should be in scope
... applications that already use OWL 2 should be in scope ←
18:47:52 <alanr> back bparsia
Alan Ruttenberg: back bparsia ←
18:47:52 <bparsia> ack me
Bijan Parsia: ack me ←
18:47:52 <Zakim> bparsia, you wanted to dig in his heels against the blow up of scope of this document
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia, you wanted to dig in his heels against the blow up of scope of this document ←
18:48:10 <pha> bijan: should be at most 5 pages
Bijan Parsia: should be at most 5 pages ←
18:48:38 <vipul> q+
Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←
18:48:44 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:49:10 <alanr> not sure I see overlap
Alan Ruttenberg: not sure I see overlap ←
18:49:16 <alanr> mostly because primer is tight
Alan Ruttenberg: mostly because primer is tight ←
18:49:16 <cgolbrei> +q
Christine Golbreich: +q ←
18:49:19 <pha> ... overlap in documents (e.g. primer) should be minimized
... overlap in documents (e.g. primer) should be minimized ←
18:50:06 <Zhe> ...
18:50:08 <pha> alan: if we increase scope, it should be done deliberately
Alan Ruttenberg: if we increase scope, it should be done deliberately ←
18:50:08 <cgolbrei> primer is general not OWL2 specific features
Christine Golbreich: primer is general not OWL2 specific features ←
18:50:22 <IanH> From charter: A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1.
Ian Horrocks: From charter: A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1. ←
18:50:53 <pha> evan: do not have a shared vision
Evan Wallace: do not have a shared vision ←
18:51:19 <bparsia> What document are we discussing?
Bijan Parsia: What document are we discussing? ←
18:52:05 <bparsia> Where was evan reading from?
Bijan Parsia: Where was evan reading from? ←
18:52:14 <pha> ian: current overview sounds right
Ian Horrocks: current overview sounds right ←
18:52:16 <pha> alan: agree
Alan Ruttenberg: agree ←
18:52:25 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/
Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/ ←
18:52:27 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/#Overview
Michael Smith: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/#Overview ←
18:53:18 <bparsia> So 5 pages is doable?
Bijan Parsia: So 5 pages is doable? ←
18:53:20 <bparsia> Seems like
Bijan Parsia: Seems like ←
18:53:33 <pha> alan: rationales only for new features
Alan Ruttenberg: rationales only for new features ←
18:53:57 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:54:03 <cgolbrei> UCs + rationlae + new fetures will become more !
Christine Golbreich: UCs + rationlae + new fetures will become more ! ←
18:54:23 <alanr> ack vipul
Alan Ruttenberg: ack vipul ←
18:54:25 <bparsia> I'm not worried about repetition but, e.g., section 2
Bijan Parsia: I'm not worried about repetition but, e.g., section 2 ←
18:54:35 <alanr> ack cgolbrei
Alan Ruttenberg: ack cgolbrei ←
18:54:54 <vipul> q+
Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←
18:54:58 <pha> cgoldbrei: cannot make it 5 pager
Scribe problem: the name 'cgoldbrei' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Miroslav Vacura Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Carsten Lutz Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown cgoldbrei: cannot make it 5 pager ←
18:55:37 <bparsia> Section 5 would be ok
Bijan Parsia: Section 5 would be ok ←
18:55:41 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:56:12 <pha> ian: do we need all the use cases for the features?
Ian Horrocks: do we need all the use cases for the features? ←
18:56:29 <pha> ... can we skim down to most important ones?
... can we skim down to most important ones? ←
18:57:15 <cgolbrei> yes
Christine Golbreich: yes ←
18:57:27 <pha> alan: some use cases not specific enough
Alan Ruttenberg: some use cases not specific enough ←
18:57:36 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:57:39 <alanr> ack vipul
Alan Ruttenberg: ack vipul ←
18:58:09 <pha> vipul: useful to have use cases across domains
Vipul Kashyap: useful to have use cases across domains ←
18:58:15 <cgolbrei> +q
Christine Golbreich: +q ←
18:59:04 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:59:04 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
18:59:19 <pha> ... have to identify use cases and stakeholders
... have to identify use cases and stakeholders ←
18:59:50 <alanr> ack bparsia
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bparsia ←
19:00:02 <vipul> q+
Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←
19:00:26 <pha> bijan: give some understanding of the kind of motivations for features, not so specific to domains
Bijan Parsia: give some understanding of the kind of motivations for features, not so specific to domains ←
19:00:35 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:00:41 <alanr> ack cgolbrei
Alan Ruttenberg: ack cgolbrei ←
19:00:42 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
19:00:43 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
19:02:49 <alanr> annotations!
Alan Ruttenberg: annotations! ←
19:02:53 <alanr> :(
Alan Ruttenberg: :( ←
19:02:54 <pha> evan: understand the feedback that we need to make document smaller, have an idea of where to do that
Evan Wallace: understand the feedback that we need to make document smaller, have an idea of where to do that ←
19:02:57 <bparsia> Sorry I can't
Bijan Parsia: Sorry I can't ←
19:02:59 <alanr> k
Alan Ruttenberg: k ←
19:03:00 <alanr> bye
Alan Ruttenberg: bye ←
19:03:02 <bparsia> I'm already a bit late (
Bijan Parsia: I'm already a bit late ( ←
19:03:07 <Zakim> -bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: -bparsia ←
19:03:35 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
19:03:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, cgolbrei, dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, cgolbrei, dlm ←
19:03:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see baojie, cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see baojie, cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
19:03:58 <pha> vipul: still disagreement - are use cases in scope or not?
Vipul Kashyap: still disagreement - are use cases in scope or not? ←
19:04:22 <cgolbrei> UCR doc usually does have at least some
Christine Golbreich: UCR doc usually does have at least some ←
19:05:14 <bparsia> Not quite gone but strongly against use cases....our charter don't require them and I don't think they are all that helpful for our requriemetns document except as illustrations
Bijan Parsia: Not quite gone but strongly against use cases....our charter don't require them and I don't think they are all that helpful for our requriemetns document except as illustrations ←
19:05:38 <pha> ian: use cases are in scope
Ian Horrocks: use cases are in scope ←
19:07:13 <pha> alan: you need to know who the users are, but not necessarily to document that
Alan Ruttenberg: you need to know who the users are, but not necessarily to document that ←
19:08:57 <cgolbrei> cannot listen
Christine Golbreich: cannot listen ←
19:10:06 <pha> alan: vipul, evan, christine and jie to update requirements document considering the discussed scope (shorter, tighter) within four weeks
Alan Ruttenberg: vipul, evan, christine and jie to update requirements document considering the discussed scope (shorter, tighter) within four weeks ←
19:11:01 <pha> alan: put placeholders for language profiles that do not yet have a name
Alan Ruttenberg: put placeholders for language profiles that do not yet have a name ←
19:12:06 <pha> Topic: Annotations
19:12:35 <Zakim> -cgolbrei
Zakim IRC Bot: -cgolbrei ←
19:13:31 <pha> boris: annotations right now do not have semantics, but you do want to reason over them
Boris Motik: annotations right now do not have semantics, but you do want to reason over them ←
19:13:41 <pha> ... proposal is similar to that of alan
... proposal is similar to that of alan ←
19:14:26 <pha> ... have a transformation of the original ontology to a new ontology in which annotations become logical information
... have a transformation of the original ontology to a new ontology in which annotations become logical information ←
19:15:18 <pha> ... semantics of annotations described in separate ontology
... semantics of annotations described in separate ontology ←
19:22:11 <pha> ... conceptually the same as proposal in AAAI'08 paper on metalevel information
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
... conceptually the same as proposal in AAAI'08 paper on metalevel information ←
19:23:42 <Zakim> -dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: -dlm ←
19:23:48 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:24:08 <IanH> ack vipul
Ian Horrocks: ack vipul ←
19:25:46 <pha> alan: how can one relate axioms in the two ontologies?
Alan Ruttenberg: how can one relate axioms in the two ontologies? ←
19:26:13 <pha> boris: leave it up to tools
Boris Motik: leave it up to tools ←
19:28:19 <dlm> \me sorry i am going to have to drop off but if i can leave the request for whatever proposal we go with to consider that at least applications need to annotate annotations - some of my science applications have observer logs that we need to encode and annotate
Deborah McGuinness: \me sorry i am going to have to drop off but if i can leave the request for whatever proposal we go with to consider that at least applications need to annotate annotations - some of my science applications have observer logs that we need to encode and annotate ←
19:29:03 <afokoue> Zakim, Achille is afokoue
Achille Fokoue: Zakim, Achille is afokoue ←
19:29:03 <Zakim> sorry, afokoue, I do not recognize a party named 'Achille'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, afokoue, I do not recognize a party named 'Achille' ←
19:29:26 <pha> zhe: like it better than two file approach
Zhe Wu: like it better than two file approach ←
19:29:32 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:31:22 <pha> zhe: transformation is additional burden on implementors
Zhe Wu: transformation is additional burden on implementors ←
19:31:48 <pha> zhe: prefer to not spec it at all
Zhe Wu: prefer to not spec it at all ←
19:32:21 <pha> ... ok if it does not affect conformance
... ok if it does not affect conformance ←
19:33:02 <afokoue> Zakim, rename Achille to afokoue
Achille Fokoue: Zakim, rename Achille to afokoue ←
19:33:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'rename Achille to afokoue', afokoue
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'rename Achille to afokoue', afokoue ←
19:38:20 <pha> michael: how expressive is it?
Scribe problem: the name 'michael' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Michael Smith Michael Schneider . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Unknown michael: how expressive is it? ←
<sandro> Meeting in progress. New content inserted above this line.
Sandro Hawke: Meeting in progress. New content inserted above this line. ←
This revision (#4) generated 2008-07-29 19:44:44 UTC by 'unknown', comments: 'until 3:45 pm'