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<sandro> Present: rees, wallace, msmith, m_schnei, haase, jie, zhe, sandro, ruttenberg, ian, boris, pfps, Miroslav, Achille
<sandro> Remote: bijan, uli, carsten
12:01:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-owl-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-owl-irc ←
12:01:57 <IanH> zakim, this will be owl
Ian Horrocks: zakim, this will be owl ←
12:01:57 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start now ←
12:02:32 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda#Day_2
Ian Horrocks: IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda#Day_2 ←
12:02:49 <IanH> Zakim, this will be owlwg
Ian Horrocks: Zakim, this will be owlwg ←
12:02:49 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago ←
12:03:02 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public
Ian Horrocks: RRSAgent, make records public ←
12:34:46 <Carsten> good morning. :)
(No events recorded for 31 minutes)
Carsten Lutz: good morning. :) ←
12:59:58 <Zakim> SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 25 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started ←
13:00:04 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
13:00:13 <uli> zakim, ??P2 is me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
13:00:13 <Zakim> +uli; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it ←
13:00:24 <uli> and good morning to you!
Uli Sattler: and good morning to you! ←
13:02:11 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:02:11 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:02:26 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:02:26 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:03:55 <uli> Hey, I should use this opportunity for advertisement!
Uli Sattler: Hey, I should use this opportunity for advertisement! ←
13:04:53 <uli> Please remember to submit to OWLED 2008 -- deadline for abstracts is next week, more details can be found at http://www.webont.org/owled/2008/
Uli Sattler: Please remember to submit to OWLED 2008 -- deadline for abstracts is next week, more details can be found at http://www.webont.org/owled/2008/ ←
13:05:26 <uli> we are looking forward to receiving your submissions.
Uli Sattler: we are looking forward to receiving your submissions. ←
13:06:03 <uli> Also, around ISWC and OWLED, there will be interesting tutorials -- please have a look at http://iswc2008.semanticweb.org/program/tutorials/
Uli Sattler: Also, around ISWC and OWLED, there will be interesting tutorials -- please have a look at http://iswc2008.semanticweb.org/program/tutorials/ ←
13:06:15 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:06:15 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:06:37 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room ←
13:06:41 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:06:41 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
13:10:03 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
13:10:16 <bparsia> zakim, ??p1 is me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??p1 is me ←
13:10:16 <Zakim> +bparsia; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bparsia; got it ←
13:10:19 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:10:19 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:11:31 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
13:11:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted) ←
13:11:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see msmith, Zhe, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, jar, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see msmith, Zhe, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, jar, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
13:11:42 <uli> hiho
Uli Sattler: hiho ←
13:11:48 <bparsia> hullo
Bijan Parsia: hullo ←
13:12:18 <Achille> sandro could you please make me the scribe? I forgot the magic command
Achille Fokoue: sandro could you please make me the scribe? I forgot the magic command ←
13:13:10 <uli> scribenick Achille
Uli Sattler: scribenick Achille ←
13:13:15 <Zakim> + +00493514633aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +00493514633aaaa ←
13:13:24 <Carsten> zakim, aaaa is me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, aaaa is me ←
13:13:24 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Carsten; got it ←
13:13:33 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:13:33 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:13:47 <Achille> topic: datatype roundup
13:15:02 <msmith> working from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html
Michael Smith: working from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html ←
13:15:07 <Achille> subtopic: Issue 126 : list of normative datatype
13:15:38 <Achille> ianh: as per the previous email, we decided to have xsd:float discret as in XML Schema
Ian Horrocks: as per the previous email, we decided to have xsd:float discret as in XML Schema [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:16:17 <Achille> ianh: we need to decide about rational
Ian Horrocks: we need to decide about rational [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:16:32 <uli> q+
Uli Sattler: q+ ←
13:16:38 <uli> q-
Uli Sattler: q- ←
13:16:43 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:16:48 <Achille> mike: we decide to postpone a decision on rational for the time of discussing N-ary datatype
Michael Smith: we decide to postpone a decision on rational for the time of discussing N-ary datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:17:11 <Achille> mike = msmith
Achille Fokoue: mike = msmith ←
13:17:32 <Achille> ianh: owl:numberPlus contains -0 what happen to facet?
Ian Horrocks: owl:numberPlus contains -0 what happen to facet? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:17:41 <Achille> s/ianh/boris
Achille Fokoue: s/ianh/boris ←
13:17:58 <Achille> alanr: XSD should answer this question
Alan Ruttenberg: XSD should answer this question [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:18:09 <Achille> msmith : XSD says that 0=-0
Achille Fokoue: msmith : XSD says that 0=-0 ←
13:18:44 <msmith> for +/-0 see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#float
Michael Smith: for +/-0 see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#float ←
13:19:10 <Achille> alanr: my worry is that float and double aren't not the same
Alan Ruttenberg: my worry is that float and double aren't not the same [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:19:23 <Achille> s/aren't not/ aren't
Achille Fokoue: s/aren't not/ aren't ←
13:20:51 <Achille> msmith: xsd NaN when used for range defined an empty range
Michael Smith: xsd NaN when used for range defined an empty range [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:21:14 <bparsia> It's definitely not maxfloat
Bijan Parsia: It's definitely not maxfloat ←
13:22:03 <Achille> alanr: adding 1 to maxfloat gets you to infinity
Alan Ruttenberg: adding 1 to maxfloat gets you to infinity [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:22:20 <Achille> alanr: same thing for double
Alan Ruttenberg: same thing for double [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:16 <Achille> boris: any range that contains 0, also contains -0?
Boris Motik: any range that contains 0, also contains -0? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:28 <Achille> boris: XSD does different thing than us
Boris Motik: XSD does different thing than us [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:52 <Achille> boris: the pb is that we also have true number (integer decimal, etc)
Boris Motik: the pb is that we also have true number (integer decimal, etc) [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:24:00 <Achille> alanr: what is the consequence?
Alan Ruttenberg: what is the consequence? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:24:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:24:55 <Achille> m_schnei: -0 also denotes 0
Michael Schneider: -0 also denotes 0 [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:25:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:25:20 <Achille> boris: it should be fine since integer does not contain -0
Boris Motik: it should be fine since integer does not contain -0 [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:26 <bparsia> I like owl:real
Bijan Parsia: I like owl:real ←
13:26:29 <Achille> ianh: owl:number is renamed owl:real
Ian Horrocks: owl:number is renamed owl:real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:26:46 <Achille> ianh: owl:rational depends on the N-ary discussion
Ian Horrocks: owl:rational depends on the N-ary discussion [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:49 <m_schnei> m_schnei: if you ask for "{-0} subset [-1,+1]", then the reasoner should say yes, because the float *literal* "-0" denotes the *value* ZERO
Michael Schneider: if you ask for "{-0} subset [-1,+1]", then the reasoner should say yes, because the float *literal* "-0" denotes the *value* ZERO [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
13:26:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:26:55 <Achille> ... nothing about integer?
Achille Fokoue: ... nothing about integer? ←
13:27:14 <Achille> alanr: we should add a min conformance of 64 bit integer
Alan Ruttenberg: we should add a min conformance of 64 bit integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:27:46 <m_schnei> ian: what about "owl:number" vs. "owl:real"?
Ian Horrocks: what about "owl:number" vs. "owl:real"? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
13:27:59 <Achille> alanr: what happen when there is a constant above the 64 bit restriction?
Alan Ruttenberg: what happen when there is a constant above the 64 bit restriction? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:07 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:28:10 <Achille> ianh: we should discuss that later
Ian Horrocks: we should discuss that later [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:28:47 <m_schnei> several people: "owl:real" is better
Michael Schneider: several people: "owl:real" is better ←
13:28:48 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:28:48 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:28:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:28:56 <Achille> alanr: a datatype range greater that the max integer is still statisfiable
Alan Ruttenberg: a datatype range greater that the max integer is still statisfiable [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:57 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
13:29:20 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:29:20 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:29:47 <Achille> alanr: let make the datatype document easily searchable for the key word conformance
Alan Ruttenberg: let make the datatype document easily searchable for the key word conformance [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:30:19 <Achille> ianh: xsd:float and xsd:double value space are now discrete
Ian Horrocks: xsd:float and xsd:double value space are now discrete [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:30:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:30:55 <Achille> alanr: how do we decide between XSD & IEEE?
Alan Ruttenberg: how do we decide between XSD & IEEE? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:31:07 <Achille> ... for float and double
Achille Fokoue: ... for float and double ←
13:31:33 <bparsia> I prefer IEEE in general
Bijan Parsia: I prefer IEEE in general ←
13:32:01 <Achille> m_schnei: NaN is not comparable to anything else
Michael Schneider: NaN is not comparable to anything else [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:32:10 <bparsia> There are a lot of NaN. And for any NaN and any other float/double NaN != that number, including itself
Bijan Parsia: There are a lot of NaN. And for any NaN and any other float/double NaN != that number, including itself ←
13:32:47 <Achille> msmith: xsd:float has a single lexical representation
Michael Smith: xsd:float has a single lexical representation [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:09 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:33:14 <Achille> m_schnei: NaN is not comparable with itself!
Michael Schneider: NaN is not comparable with itself! [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:39 <Achille> alanr: you should also consider the need for counting float elements
Alan Ruttenberg: you should also consider the need for counting float elements [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:55 <Achille> msmith: can reasoning introduce NaN?
Michael Smith: can reasoning introduce NaN? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:34:32 <Achille> boris: let's go with XSD
Boris Motik: let's go with XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:34:58 <Achille> ianh: everybody seems to agree with going with XSD
Ian Horrocks: everybody seems to agree with going with XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:10 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:35:26 <Achille> alanr: is it useful to have xsd:decimal as a type?
Alan Ruttenberg: is it useful to have xsd:decimal as a type? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:46 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
13:35:46 <Achille> msmith: it gives you arbitrary precision decimal number
Michael Smith: it gives you arbitrary precision decimal number [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:55 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
13:36:07 <bparsia> 1/10 is a decimal but not a binary number (e.g., float)
Bijan Parsia: 1/10 is a decimal but not a binary number (e.g., float) ←
13:36:10 <Achille> alanr: how do i test that something is a decimal number
Alan Ruttenberg: how do i test that something is a decimal number [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:36:19 <bparsia> I can't understand alan rut
Bijan Parsia: I can't understand alan rut ←
13:36:31 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
13:36:39 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#decimal
Michael Smith: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#decimal ←
13:36:40 <Achille> pfps: XSD has a well answer to that question. please read the spec?
Peter Patel-Schneider: XSD has a well answer to that question. please read the spec? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:36:46 <bparsia> I can't udnerstand alan at all
Bijan Parsia: I can't udnerstand alan at all ←
13:36:48 <Achille> s/?/
Achille Fokoue: s/?/ ←
13:36:52 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:36:53 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:36:54 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:36:59 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:36:59 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:37:33 <Achille> alanr: i'll read xsd spec to get the answer to my question
Alan Ruttenberg: i'll read xsd spec to get the answer to my question [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:37:59 <Achille> alanr: my pb is bt real and decimal
Alan Ruttenberg: my pb is bt real and decimal [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:38:41 <Achille> pfps: decimal= integer * 10^integer
Peter Patel-Schneider: decimal= integer * 10^integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:39:02 <bparsia> I still didn't catch that from alan
Bijan Parsia: I still didn't catch that from alan ←
13:39:17 <bparsia> It would help if he slowed down, becuase thphone seems to cut out on soft bits
Bijan Parsia: It would help if he slowed down, becuase thphone seems to cut out on soft bits ←
13:39:19 <sandro> Alan: Is it required that every datatype for serialization is also a datatype for range restrictions? I don't think so.
Alan Ruttenberg: Is it required that every datatype for serialization is also a datatype for range restrictions? I don't think so. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:39:58 <Achille> m_schnei: I can approximate as precisely as wish sqrt(2) using decimal but not with float or double
Michael Schneider: I can approximate as precisely as wish sqrt(2) using decimal but not with float or double [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:40:20 <bparsia> But the way, I wasn't intending those searchs as determinative
Bijan Parsia: But the way, I wasn't intending those searchs as determinative ←
13:40:29 <bparsia> I was just gathering some evidence
Bijan Parsia: I was just gathering some evidence ←
13:40:31 <Achille> boris: we should allow it as a legacy datatype
Boris Motik: we should allow it as a legacy datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:41 <bparsia> +1 to boris
Bijan Parsia: +1 to boris ←
13:40:49 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:40:53 <Achille> alanr: that's agood argument. thanks!
Alan Ruttenberg: that's agood argument. thanks! [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:57 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:40:59 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
13:41:00 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
13:41:06 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
13:42:23 <Achille> bijan I did not get your point, could you type it?
Achille Fokoue: bijan I did not get your point, could you type it? ←
13:43:09 <Achille> alanr: there is not oneon one mapping between decimal and real
Alan Ruttenberg: there is not oneon one mapping between decimal and real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:43:33 <bparsia> I'm worried about things like (not sure that is a correct case) 0.1^^xsd:float != 0.1^^xsd:decimal
Bijan Parsia: I'm worried about things like (not sure that is a correct case) 0.1^^xsd:float != 0.1^^xsd:decimal ←
13:43:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:44:04 <Achille> alanr: decimal as a datatype is a synonym for real
Alan Ruttenberg: decimal as a datatype is a synonym for real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:44:29 <bparsia> -1 to decimal as a synonym for real
Bijan Parsia: -1 to decimal as a synonym for real ←
13:44:39 <Achille> zhe: do we need to specify a minimal conformance for decimal
Zhe Wu: do we need to specify a minimal conformance for decimal [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:44:47 <bparsia> decimal isn't even a synonym for rational :)
Bijan Parsia: decimal isn't even a synonym for rational :) ←
13:44:48 <Achille> boris: there is such restriction in XSD
Boris Motik: there is such restriction in XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:45:25 <bparsia> Integer, rational, decimal etc.
Bijan Parsia: Integer, rational, decimal etc. ←
13:45:33 <bparsia> Algebraic reals are denumeral
Bijan Parsia: Algebraic reals are denumeral ←
13:45:37 <bparsia> Only the transcendental
Bijan Parsia: Only the transcendental ←
13:45:47 <bparsia> +1 evan
Bijan Parsia: +1 evan ←
13:45:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:45:55 <uli> Alan Rector was really glad about decimal
Uli Sattler: Alan Rector was really glad about decimal ←
13:45:57 <Achille> ekw: decimal is the most useful datetype in XSD
Evan Wallace: decimal is the most useful datetype in XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:46:34 <Achille> alanr: I'm ok with keeping deciimal in the spec
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm ok with keeping deciimal in the spec [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:46:44 <msmith> zhe and others interested in conformance, new page itemizing what needs to be addressed at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ConformanceIssues
Michael Smith: zhe and others interested in conformance, new page itemizing what needs to be addressed at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ConformanceIssues ←
13:47:19 <Achille> m_schnei: I do not understand why xsd:decimal is owl:real
Michael Schneider: I do not understand why xsd:decimal is owl:real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:47:33 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:47:33 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:47:36 <Achille> ianh: we have discussed it and decided to leave them separate
Ian Horrocks: we have discussed it and decided to leave them separate [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:48:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:49:04 <Achille> alanr: for base64Binary, should will allow length, minLength, maxLength?
Alan Ruttenberg: for base64Binary, should will allow length, minLength, maxLength? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:40 <Achille> m_schnei: why these datatypes (base64Bin, hexBin)?
Michael Schneider: why these datatypes (base64Bin, hexBin)? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:44 <Achille> boris: why not?
Boris Motik: why not? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:54 <Carsten> Wouldn't it make sense to make a lot of this exotic stuff optional?
Carsten Lutz: Wouldn't it make sense to make a lot of this exotic stuff optional? ←
13:49:58 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:49:59 <Achille> m_schnei: why not everything from xsd?
Michael Schneider: why not everything from xsd? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:50:21 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:50:28 <Achille> alanr: we are trying to get an well agreed list of acceptable datatype
Alan Ruttenberg: we are trying to get an well agreed list of acceptable datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:50:28 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:50:28 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:50:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:50:30 <Carsten> Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin
Carsten Lutz: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin ←
13:50:44 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:50:49 <sandro> ack bparsia
Sandro Hawke: ack bparsia ←
13:51:09 <Achille> bijan: the most important thing is to make sure that we say something meaningful about each datatype
Bijan Parsia: the most important thing is to make sure that we say something meaningful about each datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:51:21 <Achille> ... about its usage
Achille Fokoue: ... about its usage ←
13:51:42 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:51:42 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:51:50 <Achille> ... in swoogle I found a couple of these datatypes, but I need to investigate further
Achille Fokoue: ... in swoogle I found a couple of these datatypes, but I need to investigate further ←
13:52:08 <m_schnei> +1 to Carsten (I think...)
Michael Schneider: +1 to Carsten (I think...) ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData16">
Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData16"> ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/> ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;hexBinary"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;hexBinary"/> ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> </owl:DatatypeProperty>
Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty> ←
13:52:34 <Achille> boris: i think it is not difficult to implement these types. All you need is to find the number of element in a given range
Boris Motik: i think it is not difficult to implement these types. All you need is to find the number of element in a given range [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData64">
Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData64"> ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/> ←
13:52:36 <bparsia> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;base64Binary"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;base64Binary"/> ←
13:52:38 <bparsia> </owl:DatatypeProperty>
Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty> ←
13:52:43 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:52:49 <Achille> boris: it is almost identical to string
Boris Motik: it is almost identical to string [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:52:58 <uli> ...this finiteness could still cause performance problems, but i guess having a warning about this could suffice?
Uli Sattler: ...this finiteness could still cause performance problems, but i guess having a warning about this could suffice? ←
13:52:59 <bparsia> I'm ok in forcing implementmation if it's relatively trivial
Bijan Parsia: I'm ok in forcing implementmation if it's relatively trivial ←
13:53:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:53:32 <Achille> alanr: what concern from Carsten, but everybody else seems to agree to support them
Alan Ruttenberg: what concern from Carsten, but everybody else seems to agree to support them [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:53:48 <Achille> Carsten: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin
Carsten Lutz: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:53:49 <bparsia> +1 to boris
Bijan Parsia: +1 to boris ←
13:54:00 <Carsten> My proposal was to make the exotic stuff optional
Carsten Lutz: My proposal was to make the exotic stuff optional ←
13:54:25 <Achille> boris: the implementation overhead is almost identical for string. So if we have string, we can also have binary datatype
Boris Motik: the implementation overhead is almost identical for string. So if we have string, we can also have binary datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:54:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:54:31 <alanr> optional = incompatible
Alan Ruttenberg: optional = incompatible ←
13:55:02 <Carsten> q+
Carsten Lutz: q+ ←
13:55:10 <Carsten> zakim, unmute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, unmute me ←
13:55:10 <Zakim> Carsten should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should no longer be muted ←
13:55:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:55:14 <Achille> ianh: we have decided to avoid optional datatype
Ian Horrocks: we have decided to avoid optional datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:55:14 <alanr> carsten, this is easy stuff
Alan Ruttenberg: carsten, this is easy stuff ←
13:55:34 <Achille> carsten: I do not care so much about whether this is optional
Carsten Lutz: I do not care so much about whether this is optional [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:55:49 <Achille> ... it seems to me that these types are of limited use
Achille Fokoue: ... it seems to me that these types are of limited use ←
13:56:20 <Achille> ... i am not sure that the only important point is the ability to count elements in a range
Achille Fokoue: ... i am not sure that the only important point is the ability to count elements in a range ←
13:56:42 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:56:42 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:56:46 <m_schnei> Carsten, I think this is a moot discussion
Michael Schneider: Carsten, I think this is a moot discussion ←
13:56:55 <Achille> ... for completeness we may have to also check that a range does not contain a given element
Achille Fokoue: ... for completeness we may have to also check that a range does not contain a given element ←
13:57:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:57:20 <Carsten> q-
Carsten Lutz: q- ←
13:57:20 <Achille> boris: you can easily map all the float to integer
Boris Motik: you can easily map all the float to integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:57:21 <IanH> ack Carsten
Ian Horrocks: ack Carsten ←
13:57:27 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:57:27 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:57:49 <Carsten> ok, thanks for the explanation, I have to admit that it is not easy to follow the discussion remotely
Carsten Lutz: ok, thanks for the explanation, I have to admit that it is not easy to follow the discussion remotely ←
13:57:53 <Achille> boris: the complexity is not worse than for integer
Boris Motik: the complexity is not worse than for integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:57:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:58:00 <Carsten> an email summing up would be nice, indeed
Carsten Lutz: an email summing up would be nice, indeed ←
13:58:13 <Achille> ... i can send u code to get the next float and the number of float in a range
Achille Fokoue: ... i can send u code to get the next float and the number of float in a range ←
13:58:14 <bparsia> See: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm
Scribe problem: the name 'See' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Miroslav Vacura Achille Fokoue Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Carsten Lutz Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown See: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm [ Scribe Assist by Bijan Parsia ] ←
13:58:26 <Achille> ... I have redrew my objection
Achille Fokoue: ... I have redrew my objection ←
13:58:34 <bparsia> In particular: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/Comparing%20floating%20point%20numbers.htm#_Toc135149455
Bijan Parsia: In particular: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/Comparing%20floating%20point%20numbers.htm#_Toc135149455 ←
13:58:37 <Achille> ianh: we are don't with numeric
Ian Horrocks: we are don't with numeric [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:59:54 <bparsia> There's a standard one for iSO
Bijan Parsia: There's a standard one for iSO ←
14:00:00 <Achille> ianh: yesterday , we agree to support xsd:dateTime with timezone
Ian Horrocks: yesterday , we agree to support xsd:dateTime with timezone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:00:17 <bparsia> As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris
Bijan Parsia: As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris ←
14:00:31 <Achille> pfps: datetime is dense so all the problem wih counting
Peter Patel-Schneider: datetime is dense so all the problem wih counting [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:02:13 <m_schnei> evan: do we support leap seconds?
Evan Wallace: do we support leap seconds? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:02:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:02:37 <m_schnei> pfps: if we don't do arithmetics, it doesn't matter, since the ordering isn't hurt by leaps
Peter Patel-Schneider: if we don't do arithmetics, it doesn't matter, since the ordering isn't hurt by leaps [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:03:35 <Achille> ianh: xsd:dateTime facet: length, minLength,maxLength
Ian Horrocks: xsd:dateTime facet: length, minLength,maxLength [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:04:31 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:05:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:05:36 <Achille> alanr: why not just create a new datatype owl:dateTime?
Alan Ruttenberg: why not just create a new datatype owl:dateTime? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:05:46 <Achille> ... which will require timezone
Achille Fokoue: ... which will require timezone ←
14:06:21 <bparsia> +1 to xsd:datetime
Bijan Parsia: +1 to xsd:datetime ←
14:06:37 <uli> +178 to xsd:datetime
Uli Sattler: +178 to xsd:datetime ←
14:06:46 <bparsia> I would call it a conformance thing
Bijan Parsia: I would call it a conformance thing ←
14:07:38 <uli> ...I very much like Ian's suggestion about the 'may repair al gusto'!
Uli Sattler: ...I very much like Ian's suggestion about the 'may repair al gusto'! ←
14:07:48 <Achille> ianh: we have already decided to let application do they own repair
Ian Horrocks: we have already decided to let application do they own repair [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:07:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:08:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:09:03 <Achille> boris: xsd makes an error here by saying that it is isomorphic to the timeline
Boris Motik: xsd makes an error here by saying that it is isomorphic to the timeline [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:09:08 <bparsia> -1000 to tuple model
Bijan Parsia: -1000 to tuple model ←
14:09:32 <Achille> ianh: let's not reconsider our decision made yesterday about mandating timezone
Ian Horrocks: let's not reconsider our decision made yesterday about mandating timezone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:09:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:09:57 <bparsia> Btw, both generating and consuming tools can offer corrections and repairs
Bijan Parsia: Btw, both generating and consuming tools can offer corrections and repairs ←
14:10:16 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:10:24 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:10:39 <Achille> m_schnei: in practice, it is not a pb because any application that accept non-timezone has to come up with some strategy to deal with them
Michael Schneider: in practice, it is not a pb because any application that accept non-timezone has to come up with some strategy to deal with them [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:10:45 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:11:16 <Achille> ianh: that is precisely the point we cannot mandate any behavior to all apps
Ian Horrocks: that is precisely the point we cannot mandate any behavior to all apps [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:11:37 <m_schnei> sandro: we should talk to the XSD 1.1 WG what we think is wrong with non-timezoned dateTimeS
Sandro Hawke: we should talk to the XSD 1.1 WG what we think is wrong with non-timezoned dateTimeS [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:11:42 <Achille> sandro: we should make a formal comment to XSD 1.1 working group
Sandro Hawke: we should make a formal comment to XSD 1.1 working group [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:12:07 <Achille> pfps: I'll send them a forml comment
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll send them a forml comment [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:12:14 <sandro> ACTION: pfps to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: pfps to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:14 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps ←
14:12:27 <sandro> ACTION: peter to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: peter to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:27 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter ←
14:12:27 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase) ←
14:12:39 <sandro> ACTION: ppatelsc to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: ppatelsc to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-176 - Draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-176 - Draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05]. ←
14:12:41 <Achille> ianh: internally we require timezone, but let applications do the right repair
Ian Horrocks: internally we require timezone, but let applications do the right repair [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:13:42 <bparsia> I would also suggest that we document different repairs. Whether on the owl wg wiki or the owled one
Bijan Parsia: I would also suggest that we document different repairs. Whether on the owl wg wiki or the owled one ←
14:13:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:14:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:15:48 <ekw> straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime, or our own dateTime datatype
Evan Wallace: straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime, or our own dateTime datatype ←
14:16:27 <uli> ...too general/complex isn't bad?
Uli Sattler: ...too general/complex isn't bad? ←
14:16:49 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:17:02 <Achille> pfps: the comparison bt datetime with and w/o timezone is not feasable in our specification
Peter Patel-Schneider: the comparison bt datetime with and w/o timezone is not feasable in our specification [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:17:03 <ekw> straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime with a requirement for timezone component in text of spec
Evan Wallace: straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime with a requirement for timezone component in text of spec ←
14:17:06 <bmotik> STRAWPOLL: Should we use owl:dateTime instead of xsd:dateTime (+1 = owl:dateTime, -1 = xsd:dateTime)
STRAWPOLL: Should we use owl:dateTime instead of xsd:dateTime (+1 = owl:dateTime, -1 = xsd:dateTime) ←
14:17:19 <Achille> +1
Achille Fokoue: +1 ←
14:17:23 <baojie> +1
14:17:26 <msmith> -1
Michael Smith: -1 ←
14:17:27 <bmotik> 0
Boris Motik: 0 ←
14:17:34 <Zhe> 0
14:17:37 <bparsia> -1 to xsd:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: -1 to xsd:dateTime ←
14:17:40 <bparsia> er
Bijan Parsia: er ←
14:17:44 <bparsia> -1 to owl:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: -1 to owl:dateTime ←
14:17:47 <pha> +1
Peter Haase: +1 ←
14:17:52 <sandro> Alan: to be clear, we'll still accept xsd:dateTime on input
Alan Ruttenberg: to be clear, we'll still accept xsd:dateTime on input [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:17:57 <ekw> using boris' poll
Evan Wallace: using boris' poll ←
14:17:59 <ekw> -1
Evan Wallace: -1 ←
14:18:03 <sandro> -0
Sandro Hawke: -0 ←
14:18:33 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:18:33 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
14:18:37 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
14:18:38 <pfps> 0 (+/- 1)
Peter Patel-Schneider: 0 (+/- 1) ←
14:18:44 <Achille> bijan:yes I want xsd:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: yes I want xsd:dateTime [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:19:06 <Achille> ianh: we almost have a split decision
Ian Horrocks: we almost have a split decision [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:20:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:20:24 <bparsia> Not just doable, but acceptible
Bijan Parsia: Not just doable, but acceptible ←
14:20:28 <Achille> alanr: we have agreed on xsd:dateTime with required timeZone
Alan Ruttenberg: we have agreed on xsd:dateTime with required timeZone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:20:35 <bparsia> I don't find, e.g., an interval to be a user-sensible default
Bijan Parsia: I don't find, e.g., an interval to be a user-sensible default ←
14:20:53 <m_schnei> -1
Michael Schneider: -1 ←
14:21:32 <Achille> alanr: in other case we tried to keep xsd semantics
Alan Ruttenberg: in other case we tried to keep xsd semantics [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:21:43 <Achille> s/other case/ other cases/
Achille Fokoue: s/other case/ other cases/ ←
14:21:47 <baojie> will owl:dateTime require a timezone?
Jie Bao: will owl:dateTime require a timezone? ←
14:21:55 <Achille> yes
Achille Fokoue: yes ←
14:22:26 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:22:57 <Achille> ekw: I am not comfortable by XSD 1.1 new semantics on dateTime
Evan Wallace: I am not comfortable by XSD 1.1 new semantics on dateTime [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:23:33 <bparsia> I would prefer that we calledit xsd:dateTime and said that we add additional restrictions (the way implemetnation might only support 64 bit integers)
Bijan Parsia: I would prefer that we calledit xsd:dateTime and said that we add additional restrictions (the way implemetnation might only support 64 bit integers) ←
14:23:36 <Achille> ianh: we defeer the issue of xsd:dateTime vs owl:dateTime for the next meeting
Ian Horrocks: we defeer the issue of xsd:dateTime vs owl:dateTime for the next meeting [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:25:23 <Achille> all the details on the decision made w.r.t datatype are posted at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html
Achille Fokoue: all the details on the decision made w.r.t datatype are posted at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html ←
14:25:40 <Achille> s/decision/decisions
Achille Fokoue: s/decision/decisions ←
14:25:50 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126.
PROPOSED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126. ←
14:25:57 <bmotik> +1 Oxford
Boris Motik: +1 Oxford ←
14:26:02 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:26:04 <alanr> +1 Science Commons
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 Science Commons ←
14:26:10 <sandro> +1 W3C
Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C ←
14:26:12 <Achille> +1 IBM
Achille Fokoue: +1 IBM ←
14:26:13 <pha> +1 (FZI)
Peter Haase: +1 (FZI) ←
14:26:15 <baojie> +1 RPI
14:26:17 <msmith> +1 C&P
Michael Smith: +1 C&P ←
14:26:18 <ekw> +1 NIST
Evan Wallace: +1 NIST ←
14:26:29 <Zhe> +1 ORACLE
14:26:32 <uli> +1 manchester
Uli Sattler: +1 manchester ←
14:26:43 <sandro> RESOLVED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126.
RESOLVED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126. ←
12:01:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-owl-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-owl-irc ←
12:01:57 <IanH> zakim, this will be owl
Ian Horrocks: zakim, this will be owl ←
12:01:57 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start now ←
12:02:32 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda#Day_2
Ian Horrocks: IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda#Day_2 ←
12:02:49 <IanH> Zakim, this will be owlwg
Ian Horrocks: Zakim, this will be owlwg ←
12:02:49 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago ←
12:03:02 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public
Ian Horrocks: RRSAgent, make records public ←
12:34:46 <Carsten> good morning. :)
(No events recorded for 31 minutes)
Carsten Lutz: good morning. :) ←
12:59:58 <Zakim> SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 25 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started ←
13:00:04 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
13:00:13 <uli> zakim, ??P2 is me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
13:00:13 <Zakim> +uli; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it ←
13:00:24 <uli> and good morning to you!
Uli Sattler: and good morning to you! ←
13:02:11 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:02:11 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:02:26 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:02:26 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:03:55 <uli> Hey, I should use this opportunity for advertisement!
Uli Sattler: Hey, I should use this opportunity for advertisement! ←
13:04:53 <uli> Please remember to submit to OWLED 2008 -- deadline for abstracts is next week, more details can be found at http://www.webont.org/owled/2008/
Uli Sattler: Please remember to submit to OWLED 2008 -- deadline for abstracts is next week, more details can be found at http://www.webont.org/owled/2008/ ←
13:05:26 <uli> we are looking forward to receiving your submissions.
Uli Sattler: we are looking forward to receiving your submissions. ←
13:06:03 <uli> Also, around ISWC and OWLED, there will be interesting tutorials -- please have a look at http://iswc2008.semanticweb.org/program/tutorials/
Uli Sattler: Also, around ISWC and OWLED, there will be interesting tutorials -- please have a look at http://iswc2008.semanticweb.org/program/tutorials/ ←
13:06:15 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:06:15 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:06:37 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room ←
13:06:41 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:06:41 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
13:10:03 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
13:10:16 <bparsia> zakim, ??p1 is me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??p1 is me ←
13:10:16 <Zakim> +bparsia; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bparsia; got it ←
13:10:19 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:10:19 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:11:31 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
13:11:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted) ←
13:11:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see msmith, Zhe, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, jar, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see msmith, Zhe, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, jar, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
13:11:42 <uli> hiho
Uli Sattler: hiho ←
13:11:48 <bparsia> hullo
Bijan Parsia: hullo ←
13:12:18 <Achille> sandro could you please make me the scribe? I forgot the magic command
Achille Fokoue: sandro could you please make me the scribe? I forgot the magic command ←
13:13:10 <uli> scribenick Achille
Uli Sattler: scribenick Achille ←
13:13:15 <Zakim> + +00493514633aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +00493514633aaaa ←
13:13:24 <Carsten> zakim, aaaa is me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, aaaa is me ←
13:13:24 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Carsten; got it ←
13:13:33 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:13:33 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:13:47 <Achille> topic: datatype roundup
13:15:02 <msmith> working from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html
Michael Smith: working from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html ←
13:15:07 <Achille> subtopic: Issue 126 : list of normative datatype
13:15:38 <Achille> ianh: as per the previous email, we decided to have xsd:float discret as in XML Schema
Ian Horrocks: as per the previous email, we decided to have xsd:float discret as in XML Schema [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:16:17 <Achille> ianh: we need to decide about rational
Ian Horrocks: we need to decide about rational [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:16:32 <uli> q+
Uli Sattler: q+ ←
13:16:38 <uli> q-
Uli Sattler: q- ←
13:16:43 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:16:48 <Achille> mike: we decide to postpone a decision on rational for the time of discussing N-ary datatype
Michael Smith: we decide to postpone a decision on rational for the time of discussing N-ary datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:17:11 <Achille> mike = msmith
Achille Fokoue: mike = msmith ←
13:17:32 <Achille> ianh: owl:numberPlus contains -0 what happen to facet?
Ian Horrocks: owl:numberPlus contains -0 what happen to facet? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:17:41 <Achille> s/ianh/boris
Achille Fokoue: s/ianh/boris ←
13:17:58 <Achille> alanr: XSD should answer this question
Alan Ruttenberg: XSD should answer this question [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:18:09 <Achille> msmith : XSD says that 0=-0
Achille Fokoue: msmith : XSD says that 0=-0 ←
13:18:44 <msmith> for +/-0 see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#float
Michael Smith: for +/-0 see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#float ←
13:19:10 <Achille> alanr: my worry is that float and double aren't not the same
Alan Ruttenberg: my worry is that float and double aren't not the same [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:19:23 <Achille> s/aren't not/ aren't
Achille Fokoue: s/aren't not/ aren't ←
13:20:51 <Achille> msmith: xsd NaN when used for range defined an empty range
Michael Smith: xsd NaN when used for range defined an empty range [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:21:14 <bparsia> It's definitely not maxfloat
Bijan Parsia: It's definitely not maxfloat ←
13:22:03 <Achille> alanr: adding 1 to maxfloat gets you to infinity
Alan Ruttenberg: adding 1 to maxfloat gets you to infinity [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:22:20 <Achille> alanr: same thing for double
Alan Ruttenberg: same thing for double [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:16 <Achille> boris: any range that contains 0, also contains -0?
Boris Motik: any range that contains 0, also contains -0? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:28 <Achille> boris: XSD does different thing than us
Boris Motik: XSD does different thing than us [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:23:52 <Achille> boris: the pb is that we also have true number (integer decimal, etc)
Boris Motik: the pb is that we also have true number (integer decimal, etc) [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:24:00 <Achille> alanr: what is the consequence?
Alan Ruttenberg: what is the consequence? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:24:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:24:55 <Achille> m_schnei: -0 also denotes 0
Michael Schneider: -0 also denotes 0 [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:25:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:25:20 <Achille> boris: it should be fine since integer does not contain -0
Boris Motik: it should be fine since integer does not contain -0 [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:26 <bparsia> I like owl:real
Bijan Parsia: I like owl:real ←
13:26:29 <Achille> ianh: owl:number is renamed owl:real
Ian Horrocks: owl:number is renamed owl:real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:26:46 <Achille> ianh: owl:rational depends on the N-ary discussion
Ian Horrocks: owl:rational depends on the N-ary discussion [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:26:49 <m_schnei> m_schnei: if you ask for "{-0} subset [-1,+1]", then the reasoner should say yes, because the float *literal* "-0" denotes the *value* ZERO
Michael Schneider: if you ask for "{-0} subset [-1,+1]", then the reasoner should say yes, because the float *literal* "-0" denotes the *value* ZERO [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
13:26:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:26:55 <Achille> ... nothing about integer?
Achille Fokoue: ... nothing about integer? ←
13:27:14 <Achille> alanr: we should add a min conformance of 64 bit integer
Alan Ruttenberg: we should add a min conformance of 64 bit integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:27:46 <m_schnei> ian: what about "owl:number" vs. "owl:real"?
Ian Horrocks: what about "owl:number" vs. "owl:real"? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
13:27:59 <Achille> alanr: what happen when there is a constant above the 64 bit restriction?
Alan Ruttenberg: what happen when there is a constant above the 64 bit restriction? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:07 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:28:10 <Achille> ianh: we should discuss that later
Ian Horrocks: we should discuss that later [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:28:47 <m_schnei> several people: "owl:real" is better
Michael Schneider: several people: "owl:real" is better ←
13:28:48 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:28:48 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:28:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:28:56 <Achille> alanr: a datatype range greater that the max integer is still statisfiable
Alan Ruttenberg: a datatype range greater that the max integer is still statisfiable [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:28:57 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
13:29:20 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:29:20 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:29:47 <Achille> alanr: let make the datatype document easily searchable for the key word conformance
Alan Ruttenberg: let make the datatype document easily searchable for the key word conformance [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:30:19 <Achille> ianh: xsd:float and xsd:double value space are now discrete
Ian Horrocks: xsd:float and xsd:double value space are now discrete [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:30:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:30:55 <Achille> alanr: how do we decide between XSD & IEEE?
Alan Ruttenberg: how do we decide between XSD & IEEE? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:31:07 <Achille> ... for float and double
Achille Fokoue: ... for float and double ←
13:31:33 <bparsia> I prefer IEEE in general
Bijan Parsia: I prefer IEEE in general ←
13:32:01 <Achille> m_schnei: NaN is not comparable to anything else
Michael Schneider: NaN is not comparable to anything else [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:32:10 <bparsia> There are a lot of NaN. And for any NaN and any other float/double NaN != that number, including itself
Bijan Parsia: There are a lot of NaN. And for any NaN and any other float/double NaN != that number, including itself ←
13:32:47 <Achille> msmith: xsd:float has a single lexical representation
Michael Smith: xsd:float has a single lexical representation [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:09 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:33:14 <Achille> m_schnei: NaN is not comparable with itself!
Michael Schneider: NaN is not comparable with itself! [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:39 <Achille> alanr: you should also consider the need for counting float elements
Alan Ruttenberg: you should also consider the need for counting float elements [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:33:55 <Achille> msmith: can reasoning introduce NaN?
Michael Smith: can reasoning introduce NaN? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:34:32 <Achille> boris: let's go with XSD
Boris Motik: let's go with XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:34:58 <Achille> ianh: everybody seems to agree with going with XSD
Ian Horrocks: everybody seems to agree with going with XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:10 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:35:26 <Achille> alanr: is it useful to have xsd:decimal as a type?
Alan Ruttenberg: is it useful to have xsd:decimal as a type? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:46 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
13:35:46 <Achille> msmith: it gives you arbitrary precision decimal number
Michael Smith: it gives you arbitrary precision decimal number [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:35:55 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
13:36:07 <bparsia> 1/10 is a decimal but not a binary number (e.g., float)
Bijan Parsia: 1/10 is a decimal but not a binary number (e.g., float) ←
13:36:10 <Achille> alanr: how do i test that something is a decimal number
Alan Ruttenberg: how do i test that something is a decimal number [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:36:19 <bparsia> I can't understand alan rut
Bijan Parsia: I can't understand alan rut ←
13:36:31 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
13:36:39 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#decimal
Michael Smith: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#decimal ←
13:36:40 <Achille> pfps: XSD has a well answer to that question. please read the spec?
Peter Patel-Schneider: XSD has a well answer to that question. please read the spec? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:36:46 <bparsia> I can't udnerstand alan at all
Bijan Parsia: I can't udnerstand alan at all ←
13:36:48 <Achille> s/?/
Achille Fokoue: s/?/ ←
13:36:52 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:36:53 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:36:54 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:36:59 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:36:59 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:37:33 <Achille> alanr: i'll read xsd spec to get the answer to my question
Alan Ruttenberg: i'll read xsd spec to get the answer to my question [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:37:59 <Achille> alanr: my pb is bt real and decimal
Alan Ruttenberg: my pb is bt real and decimal [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:38:41 <Achille> pfps: decimal= integer * 10^integer
Peter Patel-Schneider: decimal= integer * 10^integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:39:02 <bparsia> I still didn't catch that from alan
Bijan Parsia: I still didn't catch that from alan ←
13:39:17 <bparsia> It would help if he slowed down, becuase thphone seems to cut out on soft bits
Bijan Parsia: It would help if he slowed down, becuase thphone seems to cut out on soft bits ←
13:39:19 <sandro> Alan: Is it required that every datatype for serialization is also a datatype for range restrictions? I don't think so.
Alan Ruttenberg: Is it required that every datatype for serialization is also a datatype for range restrictions? I don't think so. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:39:58 <Achille> m_schnei: I can approximate as precisely as wish sqrt(2) using decimal but not with float or double
Michael Schneider: I can approximate as precisely as wish sqrt(2) using decimal but not with float or double [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:40:20 <bparsia> But the way, I wasn't intending those searchs as determinative
Bijan Parsia: But the way, I wasn't intending those searchs as determinative ←
13:40:29 <bparsia> I was just gathering some evidence
Bijan Parsia: I was just gathering some evidence ←
13:40:31 <Achille> boris: we should allow it as a legacy datatype
Boris Motik: we should allow it as a legacy datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:41 <bparsia> +1 to boris
Bijan Parsia: +1 to boris ←
13:40:49 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:40:53 <Achille> alanr: that's agood argument. thanks!
Alan Ruttenberg: that's agood argument. thanks! [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:40:57 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:40:59 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
13:41:00 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
13:41:06 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
13:42:23 <Achille> bijan I did not get your point, could you type it?
Achille Fokoue: bijan I did not get your point, could you type it? ←
13:43:09 <Achille> alanr: there is not oneon one mapping between decimal and real
Alan Ruttenberg: there is not oneon one mapping between decimal and real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:43:33 <bparsia> I'm worried about things like (not sure that is a correct case) 0.1^^xsd:float != 0.1^^xsd:decimal
Bijan Parsia: I'm worried about things like (not sure that is a correct case) 0.1^^xsd:float != 0.1^^xsd:decimal ←
13:43:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:44:04 <Achille> alanr: decimal as a datatype is a synonym for real
Alan Ruttenberg: decimal as a datatype is a synonym for real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:44:29 <bparsia> -1 to decimal as a synonym for real
Bijan Parsia: -1 to decimal as a synonym for real ←
13:44:39 <Achille> zhe: do we need to specify a minimal conformance for decimal
Zhe Wu: do we need to specify a minimal conformance for decimal [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:44:47 <bparsia> decimal isn't even a synonym for rational :)
Bijan Parsia: decimal isn't even a synonym for rational :) ←
13:44:48 <Achille> boris: there is such restriction in XSD
Boris Motik: there is such restriction in XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:45:25 <bparsia> Integer, rational, decimal etc.
Bijan Parsia: Integer, rational, decimal etc. ←
13:45:33 <bparsia> Algebraic reals are denumeral
Bijan Parsia: Algebraic reals are denumeral ←
13:45:37 <bparsia> Only the transcendental
Bijan Parsia: Only the transcendental ←
13:45:47 <bparsia> +1 evan
Bijan Parsia: +1 evan ←
13:45:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:45:55 <uli> Alan Rector was really glad about decimal
Uli Sattler: Alan Rector was really glad about decimal ←
13:45:57 <Achille> ekw: decimal is the most useful datetype in XSD
Evan Wallace: decimal is the most useful datetype in XSD [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:46:34 <Achille> alanr: I'm ok with keeping deciimal in the spec
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm ok with keeping deciimal in the spec [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:46:44 <msmith> zhe and others interested in conformance, new page itemizing what needs to be addressed at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ConformanceIssues
Michael Smith: zhe and others interested in conformance, new page itemizing what needs to be addressed at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ConformanceIssues ←
13:47:19 <Achille> m_schnei: I do not understand why xsd:decimal is owl:real
Michael Schneider: I do not understand why xsd:decimal is owl:real [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:47:33 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:47:33 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:47:36 <Achille> ianh: we have discussed it and decided to leave them separate
Ian Horrocks: we have discussed it and decided to leave them separate [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:48:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:49:04 <Achille> alanr: for base64Binary, should will allow length, minLength, maxLength?
Alan Ruttenberg: for base64Binary, should will allow length, minLength, maxLength? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:40 <Achille> m_schnei: why these datatypes (base64Bin, hexBin)?
Michael Schneider: why these datatypes (base64Bin, hexBin)? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:44 <Achille> boris: why not?
Boris Motik: why not? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:49:54 <Carsten> Wouldn't it make sense to make a lot of this exotic stuff optional?
Carsten Lutz: Wouldn't it make sense to make a lot of this exotic stuff optional? ←
13:49:58 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:49:59 <Achille> m_schnei: why not everything from xsd?
Michael Schneider: why not everything from xsd? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:50:21 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:50:28 <Achille> alanr: we are trying to get an well agreed list of acceptable datatype
Alan Ruttenberg: we are trying to get an well agreed list of acceptable datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:50:28 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:50:28 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:50:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:50:30 <Carsten> Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin
Carsten Lutz: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin ←
13:50:44 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:50:49 <sandro> ack bparsia
Sandro Hawke: ack bparsia ←
13:51:09 <Achille> bijan: the most important thing is to make sure that we say something meaningful about each datatype
Bijan Parsia: the most important thing is to make sure that we say something meaningful about each datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:51:21 <Achille> ... about its usage
Achille Fokoue: ... about its usage ←
13:51:42 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:51:42 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:51:50 <Achille> ... in swoogle I found a couple of these datatypes, but I need to investigate further
Achille Fokoue: ... in swoogle I found a couple of these datatypes, but I need to investigate further ←
13:52:08 <m_schnei> +1 to Carsten (I think...)
Michael Schneider: +1 to Carsten (I think...) ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData16">
Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData16"> ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/> ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;hexBinary"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;hexBinary"/> ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> </owl:DatatypeProperty>
Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty> ←
13:52:34 <Achille> boris: i think it is not difficult to implement these types. All you need is to find the number of element in a given range
Boris Motik: i think it is not difficult to implement these types. All you need is to find the number of element in a given range [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData64">
Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData64"> ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/> ←
13:52:36 <bparsia> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;base64Binary"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;base64Binary"/> ←
13:52:38 <bparsia> </owl:DatatypeProperty>
Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty> ←
13:52:43 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:52:49 <Achille> boris: it is almost identical to string
Boris Motik: it is almost identical to string [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:52:58 <uli> ...this finiteness could still cause performance problems, but i guess having a warning about this could suffice?
Uli Sattler: ...this finiteness could still cause performance problems, but i guess having a warning about this could suffice? ←
13:52:59 <bparsia> I'm ok in forcing implementmation if it's relatively trivial
Bijan Parsia: I'm ok in forcing implementmation if it's relatively trivial ←
13:53:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:53:32 <Achille> alanr: what concern from Carsten, but everybody else seems to agree to support them
Alan Ruttenberg: what concern from Carsten, but everybody else seems to agree to support them [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:53:48 <Achille> Carsten: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin
Carsten Lutz: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:53:49 <bparsia> +1 to boris
Bijan Parsia: +1 to boris ←
13:54:00 <Carsten> My proposal was to make the exotic stuff optional
Carsten Lutz: My proposal was to make the exotic stuff optional ←
13:54:25 <Achille> boris: the implementation overhead is almost identical for string. So if we have string, we can also have binary datatype
Boris Motik: the implementation overhead is almost identical for string. So if we have string, we can also have binary datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:54:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:54:31 <alanr> optional = incompatible
Alan Ruttenberg: optional = incompatible ←
13:55:02 <Carsten> q+
Carsten Lutz: q+ ←
13:55:10 <Carsten> zakim, unmute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, unmute me ←
13:55:10 <Zakim> Carsten should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should no longer be muted ←
13:55:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:55:14 <Achille> ianh: we have decided to avoid optional datatype
Ian Horrocks: we have decided to avoid optional datatype [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:55:14 <alanr> carsten, this is easy stuff
Alan Ruttenberg: carsten, this is easy stuff ←
13:55:34 <Achille> carsten: I do not care so much about whether this is optional
Carsten Lutz: I do not care so much about whether this is optional [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:55:49 <Achille> ... it seems to me that these types are of limited use
Achille Fokoue: ... it seems to me that these types are of limited use ←
13:56:20 <Achille> ... i am not sure that the only important point is the ability to count elements in a range
Achille Fokoue: ... i am not sure that the only important point is the ability to count elements in a range ←
13:56:42 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:56:42 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:56:46 <m_schnei> Carsten, I think this is a moot discussion
Michael Schneider: Carsten, I think this is a moot discussion ←
13:56:55 <Achille> ... for completeness we may have to also check that a range does not contain a given element
Achille Fokoue: ... for completeness we may have to also check that a range does not contain a given element ←
13:57:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:57:20 <Carsten> q-
Carsten Lutz: q- ←
13:57:20 <Achille> boris: you can easily map all the float to integer
Boris Motik: you can easily map all the float to integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:57:21 <IanH> ack Carsten
Ian Horrocks: ack Carsten ←
13:57:27 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me ←
13:57:27 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:57:49 <Carsten> ok, thanks for the explanation, I have to admit that it is not easy to follow the discussion remotely
Carsten Lutz: ok, thanks for the explanation, I have to admit that it is not easy to follow the discussion remotely ←
13:57:53 <Achille> boris: the complexity is not worse than for integer
Boris Motik: the complexity is not worse than for integer [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:57:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:58:00 <Carsten> an email summing up would be nice, indeed
Carsten Lutz: an email summing up would be nice, indeed ←
13:58:13 <Achille> ... i can send u code to get the next float and the number of float in a range
Achille Fokoue: ... i can send u code to get the next float and the number of float in a range ←
13:58:14 <bparsia> See: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm
Scribe problem: the name 'See' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Miroslav Vacura Achille Fokoue Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Carsten Lutz Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown See: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm [ Scribe Assist by Bijan Parsia ] ←
13:58:26 <Achille> ... I have redrew my objection
Achille Fokoue: ... I have redrew my objection ←
13:58:34 <bparsia> In particular: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/Comparing%20floating%20point%20numbers.htm#_Toc135149455
Bijan Parsia: In particular: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/Comparing%20floating%20point%20numbers.htm#_Toc135149455 ←
13:58:37 <Achille> ianh: we are don't with numeric
Ian Horrocks: we are don't with numeric [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
13:59:54 <bparsia> There's a standard one for iSO
Bijan Parsia: There's a standard one for iSO ←
14:00:00 <Achille> ianh: yesterday , we agree to support xsd:dateTime with timezone
Ian Horrocks: yesterday , we agree to support xsd:dateTime with timezone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:00:17 <bparsia> As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris
Bijan Parsia: As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris ←
14:00:31 <Achille> pfps: datetime is dense so all the problem wih counting
Peter Patel-Schneider: datetime is dense so all the problem wih counting [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:02:13 <m_schnei> evan: do we support leap seconds?
Evan Wallace: do we support leap seconds? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:02:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:02:37 <m_schnei> pfps: if we don't do arithmetics, it doesn't matter, since the ordering isn't hurt by leaps
Peter Patel-Schneider: if we don't do arithmetics, it doesn't matter, since the ordering isn't hurt by leaps [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:03:35 <Achille> ianh: xsd:dateTime facet: length, minLength,maxLength
Ian Horrocks: xsd:dateTime facet: length, minLength,maxLength [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:04:31 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:05:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:05:36 <Achille> alanr: why not just create a new datatype owl:dateTime?
Alan Ruttenberg: why not just create a new datatype owl:dateTime? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:05:46 <Achille> ... which will require timezone
Achille Fokoue: ... which will require timezone ←
14:06:21 <bparsia> +1 to xsd:datetime
Bijan Parsia: +1 to xsd:datetime ←
14:06:37 <uli> +178 to xsd:datetime
Uli Sattler: +178 to xsd:datetime ←
14:06:46 <bparsia> I would call it a conformance thing
Bijan Parsia: I would call it a conformance thing ←
14:07:38 <uli> ...I very much like Ian's suggestion about the 'may repair al gusto'!
Uli Sattler: ...I very much like Ian's suggestion about the 'may repair al gusto'! ←
14:07:48 <Achille> ianh: we have already decided to let application do they own repair
Ian Horrocks: we have already decided to let application do they own repair [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:07:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:08:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:09:03 <Achille> boris: xsd makes an error here by saying that it is isomorphic to the timeline
Boris Motik: xsd makes an error here by saying that it is isomorphic to the timeline [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:09:08 <bparsia> -1000 to tuple model
Bijan Parsia: -1000 to tuple model ←
14:09:32 <Achille> ianh: let's not reconsider our decision made yesterday about mandating timezone
Ian Horrocks: let's not reconsider our decision made yesterday about mandating timezone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:09:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:09:57 <bparsia> Btw, both generating and consuming tools can offer corrections and repairs
Bijan Parsia: Btw, both generating and consuming tools can offer corrections and repairs ←
14:10:16 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:10:24 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:10:39 <Achille> m_schnei: in practice, it is not a pb because any application that accept non-timezone has to come up with some strategy to deal with them
Michael Schneider: in practice, it is not a pb because any application that accept non-timezone has to come up with some strategy to deal with them [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:10:45 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:11:16 <Achille> ianh: that is precisely the point we cannot mandate any behavior to all apps
Ian Horrocks: that is precisely the point we cannot mandate any behavior to all apps [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:11:37 <m_schnei> sandro: we should talk to the XSD 1.1 WG what we think is wrong with non-timezoned dateTimeS
Sandro Hawke: we should talk to the XSD 1.1 WG what we think is wrong with non-timezoned dateTimeS [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:11:42 <Achille> sandro: we should make a formal comment to XSD 1.1 working group
Sandro Hawke: we should make a formal comment to XSD 1.1 working group [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:12:07 <Achille> pfps: I'll send them a forml comment
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll send them a forml comment [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:12:14 <sandro> ACTION: pfps to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: pfps to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:14 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps ←
14:12:27 <sandro> ACTION: peter to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: peter to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:27 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter ←
14:12:27 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase) ←
14:12:39 <sandro> ACTION: ppatelsc to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: ppatelsc to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-176 - Draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-176 - Draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05]. ←
14:12:41 <Achille> ianh: internally we require timezone, but let applications do the right repair
Ian Horrocks: internally we require timezone, but let applications do the right repair [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:13:42 <bparsia> I would also suggest that we document different repairs. Whether on the owl wg wiki or the owled one
Bijan Parsia: I would also suggest that we document different repairs. Whether on the owl wg wiki or the owled one ←
14:13:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:14:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:15:48 <ekw> straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime, or our own dateTime datatype
Evan Wallace: straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime, or our own dateTime datatype ←
14:16:27 <uli> ...too general/complex isn't bad?
Uli Sattler: ...too general/complex isn't bad? ←
14:16:49 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:17:02 <Achille> pfps: the comparison bt datetime with and w/o timezone is not feasable in our specification
Peter Patel-Schneider: the comparison bt datetime with and w/o timezone is not feasable in our specification [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:17:03 <ekw> straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime with a requirement for timezone component in text of spec
Evan Wallace: straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime with a requirement for timezone component in text of spec ←
14:17:06 <bmotik> STRAWPOLL: Should we use owl:dateTime instead of xsd:dateTime (+1 = owl:dateTime, -1 = xsd:dateTime)
STRAWPOLL: Should we use owl:dateTime instead of xsd:dateTime (+1 = owl:dateTime, -1 = xsd:dateTime) ←
14:17:19 <Achille> +1
Achille Fokoue: +1 ←
14:17:23 <baojie> +1
14:17:26 <msmith> -1
Michael Smith: -1 ←
14:17:27 <bmotik> 0
Boris Motik: 0 ←
14:17:34 <Zhe> 0
14:17:37 <bparsia> -1 to xsd:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: -1 to xsd:dateTime ←
14:17:40 <bparsia> er
Bijan Parsia: er ←
14:17:44 <bparsia> -1 to owl:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: -1 to owl:dateTime ←
14:17:47 <pha> +1
Peter Haase: +1 ←
14:17:52 <sandro> Alan: to be clear, we'll still accept xsd:dateTime on input
Alan Ruttenberg: to be clear, we'll still accept xsd:dateTime on input [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:17:57 <ekw> using boris' poll
Evan Wallace: using boris' poll ←
14:17:59 <ekw> -1
Evan Wallace: -1 ←
14:18:03 <sandro> -0
Sandro Hawke: -0 ←
14:18:33 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:18:33 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
14:18:37 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
14:18:38 <pfps> 0 (+/- 1)
Peter Patel-Schneider: 0 (+/- 1) ←
14:18:44 <Achille> bijan:yes I want xsd:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: yes I want xsd:dateTime [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:19:06 <Achille> ianh: we almost have a split decision
Ian Horrocks: we almost have a split decision [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:20:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:20:24 <bparsia> Not just doable, but acceptible
Bijan Parsia: Not just doable, but acceptible ←
14:20:28 <Achille> alanr: we have agreed on xsd:dateTime with required timeZone
Alan Ruttenberg: we have agreed on xsd:dateTime with required timeZone [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:20:35 <bparsia> I don't find, e.g., an interval to be a user-sensible default
Bijan Parsia: I don't find, e.g., an interval to be a user-sensible default ←
14:20:53 <m_schnei> -1
Michael Schneider: -1 ←
14:21:32 <Achille> alanr: in other case we tried to keep xsd semantics
Alan Ruttenberg: in other case we tried to keep xsd semantics [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:21:43 <Achille> s/other case/ other cases/
Achille Fokoue: s/other case/ other cases/ ←
14:21:47 <baojie> will owl:dateTime require a timezone?
Jie Bao: will owl:dateTime require a timezone? ←
14:21:55 <Achille> yes
Achille Fokoue: yes ←
14:22:26 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:22:57 <Achille> ekw: I am not comfortable by XSD 1.1 new semantics on dateTime
Evan Wallace: I am not comfortable by XSD 1.1 new semantics on dateTime [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:23:33 <bparsia> I would prefer that we calledit xsd:dateTime and said that we add additional restrictions (the way implemetnation might only support 64 bit integers)
Bijan Parsia: I would prefer that we calledit xsd:dateTime and said that we add additional restrictions (the way implemetnation might only support 64 bit integers) ←
14:23:36 <Achille> ianh: we defeer the issue of xsd:dateTime vs owl:dateTime for the next meeting
Ian Horrocks: we defeer the issue of xsd:dateTime vs owl:dateTime for the next meeting [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:25:23 <Achille> all the details on the decision made w.r.t datatype are posted at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html
Achille Fokoue: all the details on the decision made w.r.t datatype are posted at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html ←
14:25:40 <Achille> s/decision/decisions
Achille Fokoue: s/decision/decisions ←
14:25:50 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126.
PROPOSED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126. ←
14:25:57 <bmotik> +1 Oxford
Boris Motik: +1 Oxford ←
14:26:02 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:26:04 <alanr> +1 Science Commons
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 Science Commons ←
14:26:10 <sandro> +1 W3C
Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C ←
14:26:12 <Achille> +1 IBM
Achille Fokoue: +1 IBM ←
14:26:13 <pha> +1 (FZI)
Peter Haase: +1 (FZI) ←
14:26:15 <baojie> +1 RPI
14:26:17 <msmith> +1 C&P
Michael Smith: +1 C&P ←
14:26:18 <ekw> +1 NIST
Evan Wallace: +1 NIST ←
14:26:29 <Zhe> +1 ORACLE
14:26:32 <uli> +1 manchester
Uli Sattler: +1 manchester ←
14:26:43 <sandro> RESOLVED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126.
RESOLVED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126. ←
14:27:48 <Achille> ianh: we agreed yesterday to make issue 132 an editorial issue
Ian Horrocks: we agreed yesterday to make ISSUE-132 an editorial issue [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:27:59 <Achille> s/ianh/boris
Achille Fokoue: s/ianh/boris ←
14:28:17 <Achille> topic: N-ary datatype
14:28:30 <Achille> ianh: a proposal is on the wiki
Ian Horrocks: a proposal is on the wiki [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:28:55 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:29:00 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:29:03 <Achille> ianh: there is compromise to make it optional,
Ian Horrocks: there is compromise to make it optional, [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:29:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:29:27 <Achille> ... if you decide to support it we specify exactly how it should be implemented
Achille Fokoue: ... if you decide to support it we specify exactly how it should be implemented ←
14:29:37 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:29:55 <Achille> alanr: there are interop issues here
Alan Ruttenberg: there are interop issues here [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:30:07 <bparsia> ?
Bijan Parsia: ? ←
14:30:33 <bparsia> Hey!
Bijan Parsia: Hey! ←
14:30:37 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:30:37 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
14:30:55 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:30:58 <Achille> alanr: when you use that aspect of the spec it is unlikely that you will be portable
Alan Ruttenberg: when you use that aspect of the spec it is unlikely that you will be portable [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:31:00 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
14:31:03 <alanr> maybe
Alan Ruttenberg: maybe ←
14:31:08 <alanr> not clear
Alan Ruttenberg: not clear ←
14:31:48 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:32:08 <msmith> +1 to bijan. There can be OWL DL conformance and OWL Nary datatype conformance as separate things
Michael Smith: +1 to bijan. There can be OWL DL conformance and OWL Nary datatype conformance as separate things ←
14:32:08 <alanr> I never use racer because of nominals
Alan Ruttenberg: I never use racer because of nominals ←
14:32:15 <Achille> bijan: i don't see why this is a pb. it is hard to me to imagine that someone using an equation would not be aware that he is doing something hard for implementation
Bijan Parsia: i don't see why this is a pb. it is hard to me to imagine that someone using an equation would not be aware that he is doing something hard for implementation [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:32:23 <alanr> consider it not to support OWL
Alan Ruttenberg: consider it not to support OWL ←
14:32:29 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:32:29 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
14:32:41 <Achille> ... this is just one of many things that tools will not support
Achille Fokoue: ... this is just one of many things that tools will not support ←
14:32:53 <bparsia> That'll be ture
Bijan Parsia: That'll be ture ←
14:33:06 <bparsia> And it won't include linear
Bijan Parsia: And it won't include linear ←
14:33:07 <Achille> alanr: I'm still concern about interoperability
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm still concern about interoperability [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:33:13 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:33:25 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:33:25 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
14:33:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:33:55 <Achille> msmith: this goes to the conformance discussion
Michael Smith: this goes to the conformance discussion [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:34:10 <m_schnei> m_schnei: thinks that typical name for this is "a standard extension"
Michael Schneider: thinks that typical name for this is "a standard extension" [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:34:12 <Achille> ... we will have similar conformance isssue with profile.
Achille Fokoue: ... we will have similar conformance isssue with profile. ←
14:34:13 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
14:34:23 <bparsia> that was a separate q!
Bijan Parsia: that was a separate q! ←
14:34:25 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:34:29 <Achille> ... it is just another facet of this problem of conformance
Achille Fokoue: ... it is just another facet of this problem of conformance ←
14:34:37 <IanH> ack bparisa
Ian Horrocks: ack bparisa ←
14:34:41 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:34:46 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
14:35:01 <Achille> bijan: i really don't understand why putting it in a different document that solve the problem
Bijan Parsia: i really don't understand why putting it in a different document that solve the problem [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:35:48 <Achille> bijan: species validation will help you understand whether you stand w.r.t. portability
Bijan Parsia: species validation will help you understand whether you stand w.r.t. portability [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:36:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:36:01 <bparsia> expressive checking in general
Bijan Parsia: expressive checking in general ←
14:36:13 <bparsia> If you have nominals, you can't use KAON2
Bijan Parsia: If you have nominals, you can't use KAON2 ←
14:36:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:36:53 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
14:37:15 <Achille> ianh: will there be a specific proposal about N-ary ?
Ian Horrocks: will there be a specific proposal about N-ary ? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:37:36 <uli> yes, I do
Uli Sattler: yes, I do ←
14:37:49 <Achille> bijan: it will be an extensibility point
Bijan Parsia: it will be an extensibility point [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:38:05 <Achille> ... we will have a specific proposal
Achille Fokoue: ... we will have a specific proposal ←
14:38:15 <Achille> ... in a separate spec
Achille Fokoue: ... in a separate spec ←
14:38:33 <bparsia> We expect at least 2 interoperable implementations
Bijan Parsia: We expect at least 2 interoperable implementations ←
14:38:35 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:38:40 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:38:45 <Achille> alanr: I'm concern with predictability
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm concern with predictability [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:38:48 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:39:13 <bparsia> I would be happy to have linear inequations in the main spec
Bijan Parsia: I would be happy to have linear inequations in the main spec ←
14:39:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:39:25 <uli> me to
Uli Sattler: me to ←
14:39:44 <uli> me too (to linear unequations)
Uli Sattler: me too (to linear unequations) ←
14:39:49 <Achille> ianh: what is missing is whether the proposal will be acceptable and what is the boundary bt the main spec and the separate proposal?
Ian Horrocks: what is missing is whether the proposal will be acceptable and what is the boundary bt the main spec and the separate proposal? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:40:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:40:16 <Achille> boris: I do not want any N-ary in the core spec
Boris Motik: I do not want any N-ary in the core spec [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:40:38 <Carsten> inequalities give you integer programming?? How??
Carsten Lutz: inequalities give you integer programming?? How?? ←
14:41:06 <Achille> ianh: boris thinks that boundary should be as the spec stands now w/o N-ary
Ian Horrocks: boris thinks that boundary should be as the spec stands now w/o N-ary [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:41:17 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:41:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia, Carsten (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia, Carsten (muted) ←
14:41:29 <Achille> m_schnei: i have no clue about what will be possible for implementator to do
Michael Schneider: i have no clue about what will be possible for implementator to do [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:41:30 <bmotik> Perhaps not the full programming. My main problem is that I haven't seen an *exact* pointer to the literature what it is that I need to do to implement it.
Boris Motik: Perhaps not the full programming. My main problem is that I haven't seen an *exact* pointer to the literature what it is that I need to do to implement it. ←
14:41:54 <Achille> ... how hard is N-ary ?
Achille Fokoue: ... how hard is N-ary ? ←
14:41:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:42:01 <bmotik> Some people promissed it, but I haven't seen any actual pointers to literature.
Boris Motik: Some people promissed it, but I haven't seen any actual pointers to literature. ←
14:42:11 <bmotik> s/promissed/promised
Boris Motik: s/promissed/promised ←
14:42:19 <bparsia> No one is advocating for crap specing
Bijan Parsia: No one is advocating for crap specing ←
14:42:21 <Achille> alanr: I'd like each extension to be as good and precise as in the current spec
Alan Ruttenberg: I'd like each extension to be as good and precise as in the current spec [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:42:26 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:42:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:43:13 <Achille> bparsia: yes of course, it will be as precise as the current spec
Bijan Parsia: yes of course, it will be as precise as the current spec [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:43:16 <uli> ...and otherwise we won't accept it - this is easy!
Uli Sattler: ...and otherwise we won't accept it - this is easy! ←
14:43:22 <alanr> good
Alan Ruttenberg: good ←
14:43:41 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:43:41 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
14:43:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:43:43 <Achille> bparsia: I want to force a CR period and force implementations
Bijan Parsia: I want to force a CR period and force implementations [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:43:46 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:44:15 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:44:19 <Achille> m_schnei: where should be the boundary?
Michael Schneider: where should be the boundary? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:44:31 <Achille> s/m_schnei/ianh
Achille Fokoue: s/m_schnei/ianh ←
14:44:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:45:04 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:45:05 <Achille> boris: I am still waiting for a pointer to concrete implementation
Boris Motik: I am still waiting for a pointer to concrete implementation [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:45:10 <bparsia> ack me
Bijan Parsia: ack me ←
14:45:14 <Achille> ... of N-ary
Achille Fokoue: ... of N-ary ←
14:45:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:45:22 <Achille> bparsia: this is reasonable
Bijan Parsia: this is reasonable [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:45:57 <Achille> ... a lot of users pushed for linear equation , we should decide about the boundary later
Achille Fokoue: ... a lot of users pushed for linear equation , we should decide about the boundary later ←
14:45:59 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:45:59 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
14:46:50 <Achille> ianh: do we agree about the separe N-ary document outside the main spec doc? we will have to decide later where the boundaryt
Ian Horrocks: do we agree about the separe N-ary document outside the main spec doc? we will have to decide later where the boundaryt [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:47:06 <Achille> s/separe/ separate/
Achille Fokoue: s/separe/ separate/ ←
14:47:12 <bparsia> +1
Bijan Parsia: +1 ←
14:47:13 <msmith> +1
Michael Smith: +1 ←
14:47:14 <uli> +1
Uli Sattler: +1 ←
14:47:18 <baojie> +1
14:47:29 <Achille> STROLLPOLL: do we agree about the separe N-ary document outside the main spec doc?
Scribe problem: the name 'STROLLPOLL' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Miroslav Vacura Achille Fokoue Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Carsten Lutz Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown STROLLPOLL: do we agree about the separe N-ary document outside the main spec doc? [ Scribe Assist by Achille Fokoue ] ←
14:47:35 <pha> +1
Peter Haase: +1 ←
14:47:37 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
14:47:38 <bparsia> +1
Bijan Parsia: +1 ←
14:47:40 <pfps> +1
14:47:41 <Achille> +1
Achille Fokoue: +1 ←
14:47:42 <ekw> +1
Evan Wallace: +1 ←
14:47:42 <Zhe> +1
14:47:43 <Carsten> 0
Carsten Lutz: 0 ←
14:47:44 <m_schnei> +1 (like the idea of n-aries *in principle*)
Michael Schneider: +1 (like the idea of n-aries *in principle*) ←
14:47:45 <alanr> 0
Alan Ruttenberg: 0 ←
14:47:52 <uli> +1
Uli Sattler: +1 ←
14:48:31 <bparsia> Is there a preferred wiki location?
Bijan Parsia: Is there a preferred wiki location? ←
14:48:35 <Achille> s/STROLLPOLL/STRAWPOLL
Achille Fokoue: s/STROLLPOLL/STRAWPOLL ←
14:48:37 <ekw> breaking now
Evan Wallace: breaking now ←
14:48:44 <alanr> can you call it "functions" instead of n-ary?
Alan Ruttenberg: can you call it "functions" instead of n-ary? ←
14:48:50 <alanr> people understand former
Alan Ruttenberg: people understand former ←
14:48:51 <Zakim> -Carsten
Zakim IRC Bot: -Carsten ←
14:48:54 <bparsia> They aren't funcitons
Bijan Parsia: They aren't funcitons ←
14:48:57 <bparsia> Data predicates?
Bijan Parsia: Data predicates? ←
14:48:57 <Zakim> -uli
Zakim IRC Bot: -uli ←
14:49:12 <alanr> maybe - let's brainstorm. n-ary is definitely confusing
Alan Ruttenberg: maybe - let's brainstorm. n-ary is definitely confusing ←
14:49:21 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:49:21 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
14:49:23 <Achille> s/separe/separate/
Achille Fokoue: s/separe/separate/ ←
14:49:32 <jar> quantitative constraints?
Jonathan Rees: quantitative constraints? ←
14:50:09 <jar> data constraints?
Jonathan Rees: data constraints? ←
14:51:01 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:51:01 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
<sandro> Meeting in progress. New content inserted above this line.
Sandro Hawke: Meeting in progress. New content inserted above this line. ←
This revision (#2) generated 2008-07-29 15:29:26 UTC by 'unknown', comments: 'just regenerated. meeting still in progress.'