OWL Working Group

Draft Minutes of 23 July 2008

Present
Bijan Parsia Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman Uli Sattler Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Michael Smith Rob Shearer Boris Motik Carsten Lutz Rinke Hoekstra Evan Wallace Jie Bao Elisa Kendall Peter Patel-Schneider
Regrets
Michael Schneider Markus Krötzsch
Chair
Alan Ruttenberg
Scribe
Achille Fokoue
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. resolve issue with no change to serialisation but document this and other "interesting" equivalences in user facing documents link
Topics
00:00:00 <Achille> PRESENT: bparsia (muted), IanH (muted), Ivan (muted), uli (muted), Achille, Alan Ruttenberg, Zhe (muted), Sandro, msmith, rob, bmotik, Carsten, Rinke, ewallace, baojie, Elisa, pfps
00:00:00 <scribenick> REGRETS: Michael Schneider, Markus Krötzsch
00:00:00 <scribenick> CHAIR: alanr
17:18:48 <ivan> scribenick: Achille

(Scribe set to Achille Fokoue)

17:18:55 <ivan> scribe: Achille
17:04:35 <rob> Zakim, +??P40 is probably me.

Rob Shearer: Zakim, +??P40 is probably me.

17:04:41 <Zakim> sorry, rob, I do not understand your question

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, rob, I do not understand your question

17:04:55 <rob> zakim, +??P40 might be me

Rob Shearer: zakim, +??P40 might be me

17:05:08 <Zakim> I don't understand '+??P40 might be me', rob

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '+??P40 might be me', rob

17:05:13 <ivan> zakim, ??P40 is rob

Ivan Herman: zakim, ??P40 is rob

17:05:18 <Zakim> +rob; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +rob; got it

17:05:45 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

17:05:45 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

17:05:59 <Achille> alanr: no agenda amendments

Alan Ruttenberg: no agenda amendments

17:05:45 <Achille> alanr: PROPOSED: Accept previous minutes (July 16)

Alan Ruttenberg: PROPOSED: Accept previous minutes (July 16)

17:05:46 <IanH> They looked OK to me.

Ian Horrocks: They looked OK to me.

17:06:12 <IanH> They looked OK to me too

Ian Horrocks: They looked OK to me too

17:06:07 <msmith> the regrets are missing

Michael Smith: the regrets are missing

17:06:42 <Achille> alanr: let's wait for peter to decide to accept or reject the minutes

Alan Ruttenberg: let's wait for peter to decide to accept or reject the minutes

17:07:03 <ivan> zakim, bmotik_ is bmotik

Ivan Herman: zakim, bmotik_ is bmotik

17:07:03 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'bmotik_'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'bmotik_'

17:07:04 <Achille> alanr: An agenda for the F2F3 is at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda

Alan Ruttenberg: An agenda for the F2F3 is at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda

17:07:24 <Achille> alanr: Anything missing from the agenda for the F2F3?

Alan Ruttenberg: Anything missing from the agenda for the F2F3?

17:07:27 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace

Zakim IRC Bot: +Evan_Wallace

17:07:37 <Achille> topic: action items

1. action items

17:08:05 <Achille> alanr: action 156 has been completed by Ian

Alan Ruttenberg: ACTION-156 has been completed by Ian

17:08:28 <Zakim> +Carsten

Zakim IRC Bot: +Carsten

17:08:36 <Carsten> zakim, mute me

Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me

17:08:36 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted

17:08:49 <baojie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0375.html

Jie Bao: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0375.html

17:08:50 <Achille> ewallace: action 167 done

Evan Wallace: ACTION-167 done

17:09:20 <rob> zakim, who is here

Rob Shearer: zakim, who is here

17:09:20 <Zakim> rob, you need to end that query with '?'

Zakim IRC Bot: rob, you need to end that query with '?'

17:09:26 <Achille> jie: i just sent an email summarizing the action at the last meeting  of RIF WG

Jie Bao: i just sent an email summarizing the action at the last meeting of RIF WG

17:09:27 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

17:09:30 <rob> zakim, who is here?

Rob Shearer: zakim, who is here?

17:09:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see bparsia (muted), IanH (muted), Ivan (muted), uli (muted), Achille, alanr, Zhe (muted), Sandro, msmith, rob (muted), baojie, Evan_Wallace, Carsten (muted), ??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bparsia (muted), IanH (muted), Ivan (muted), uli (muted), Achille, alanr, Zhe (muted), Sandro, msmith, rob (muted), baojie, Evan_Wallace, Carsten (muted), ??P3

17:09:32 <Rinke> zakim, ??P3 is me

Rinke Hoekstra: zakim, ??P3 is me

17:09:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Rinke, ewallace, bmotik, baojie, rob, sandro, alanr, Achille, Zhe, msmith, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, uli, bparsia, Carsten, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Rinke, ewallace, bmotik, baojie, rob, sandro, alanr, Achille, Zhe, msmith, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, uli, bparsia, Carsten, trackbot

17:09:35 <Rinke> zakim, mute me

Rinke Hoekstra: zakim, mute me

17:09:36 <Zakim> +Rinke; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Rinke; got it

17:09:36 <Zakim> Rinke should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Rinke should now be muted

17:10:09 <Achille> alanr: What is your sense of the status for the RIF WG

Alan Ruttenberg: What is your sense of the status for the RIF WG

17:10:34 <Achille> jie: As far as this action is concerned, it is well on track

Jie Bao: As far as this action is concerned, it is well on track

17:11:15 <Achille> alanr: Micheal is not here for action 152

Alan Ruttenberg: Micheal is not here for ACTION-152

17:11:27 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_People

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_People

17:11:33 <bmotik> Zakim, bmotik is with Achille

Boris Motik: Zakim, bmotik is with Achille

17:11:33 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bmotik; got it

17:11:36 <Achille> sandro: Add food restrictions on the F2F3 page at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_People

Sandro Hawke: Add food restrictions on the F2F3 page at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_People

17:11:55 <Achille> topic: Proposal to resolve issues

2. Proposal to resolve issues

17:12:28 <IanH> doing it

Ian Horrocks: doing it

17:12:56 <Achille> alanr:  issue 125 should be left for the primer  not for the technical documents

Alan Ruttenberg: ISSUE-125 should be left for the primer not for the technical documents

17:13:07 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

17:13:07 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted

17:13:10 <alanr> ack bparsia

Alan Ruttenberg: ack bparsia

17:14:20 <Achille> bparsia: I think issue 125 should  just be an editorial issue

Bijan Parsia: I think ISSUE-125 should just be an editorial issue

17:14:30 <IanH> PROPOSED: resolve issue with no change to serialisation but document this and other "interesting" equivalences in user facing documents

PROPOSED: resolve issue with no change to serialisation but document this and other "interesting" equivalences in user facing documents

17:14:49 <Achille> bparsia: I don't like the micro-management of this issue

Bijan Parsia: I don't like the micro-management of this issue

17:14:54 <IanH> zakim, unmute me

Ian Horrocks: zakim, unmute me

17:14:54 <Zakim> IanH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: IanH should no longer be muted

17:15:27 <ewallace> No!

Evan Wallace: No!

17:15:45 <Achille> ianh: I made the proposal as an easy way to fix the issue. Bijan would you prefer changing the serializarion

Ian Horrocks: I made the proposal as an easy way to fix the issue. Bijan would you prefer changing the serializarion

17:15:55 <Achille> bijan: no

Bijan Parsia: no

17:15:49 <bmotik> +1 to close

Boris Motik: +1 to close

17:15:58 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

17:15:58 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

17:16:14 <Achille> alanr: any opinion on this issue?

Alan Ruttenberg: any opinion on this issue?

17:16:41 <Achille> boris: in the syntax document, I have already mentioned some equivalences

Boris Motik: in the syntax document, I have already mentioned some equivalences

17:16:53 <Achille> boris: this could be just one additional line

Boris Motik: this could be just one additional line

17:17:05 <Achille> boris: I would like to close it

Boris Motik: I would like to close it

17:17:16 <Achille> boris: by adding it in the syntax document

Boris Motik: by adding it in the syntax document

17:17:02 <bparsia> I'm not saying I wouldn't put it in, but I think we should just close it

Bijan Parsia: I'm not saying I wouldn't put it in, but I think we should just close it

17:17:06 <bparsia> I don't care

Bijan Parsia: I don't care

17:17:08 <bparsia> Close it

Bijan Parsia: Close it

17:17:09 <bparsia> however

Bijan Parsia: however

17:17:19 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

17:17:19 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted

17:17:40 <bparsia> zakim,  mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

17:17:40 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

17:17:53 <Achille> parsia: I'm not going to argue further. I will not vote against it

Bijan Parsia: I'm not going to argue further. I will not vote against it

17:18:02 <alanr> Proposed: resolve issue with no change to serialisation but document this and other "interesting" equivalences in user facing documents

PROPOSED: resolve issue with no change to serialisation but document this and other "interesting" equivalences in user facing documents

17:18:08 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1

17:18:10 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

17:18:11 <IanH> +1

Ian Horrocks: +1

17:18:15 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1

17:18:15 <Rinke> +1

Rinke Hoekstra: +1

17:18:17 <Achille> achille: +1

Achille Fokoue: +1

17:18:17 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

17:18:17 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

17:18:23 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1

17:18:26 <Carsten> +1

Carsten Lutz: +1

17:18:29 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1

17:18:47 <ewallace> +1

Evan Wallace: +1

17:19:20 <alanr> Resolved: resolve issue with no change to serialisation but document this and other "interesting" equivalences in user facing documents

RESOLVED: resolve issue with no change to serialisation but document this and other "interesting" equivalences in user facing documents

17:19:31 <Achille> topic: issue discussion

3. issue discussion

17:19:51 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

17:19:51 <Zakim> bparsia was already muted, bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was already muted, bparsia

17:20:03 <Achille> alanr: discussion on bijan's email on various options to N-ary datatypes

Alan Ruttenberg: discussion on bijan's email on various options to N-ary datatypes

17:20:21 <Achille> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0047.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0047.html

17:20:46 <Achille> alanr: what should be our direction for N-ary datatype support ?

Alan Ruttenberg: what should be our direction for N-ary datatype support ?

17:21:08 <Achille> alanr: I 'd like to add an option : "not to include N-ary datatype at all"

Alan Ruttenberg: I 'd like to add an option : "not to include N-ary datatype at all"

17:20:48 <bparsia> That was not included

Bijan Parsia: That was not included

17:21:26 <bparsia> I suspect manchester would object if we do not included the base hook

Bijan Parsia: I suspect manchester would object if we do not included the base hook

17:21:42 <Achille> alanr: what do implements think of N-ary datatypes?

Alan Ruttenberg: what do implements think of N-ary datatypes?

17:22:14 <bmotik> Achille: I don't think we have a good story whether we are going to implement this feature

Achille Fokoue: I don't think we have a good story whether we are going to implement this feature [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

17:22:24 <bmotik> Achille: The implementation is done by our colleagues in China

Achille Fokoue: The implementation is done by our colleagues in China [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

17:22:35 <bmotik> Achille: This doesn't seem as something that they'll implement soon

Achille Fokoue: This doesn't seem as something that they'll implement soon [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

17:22:48 <bmotik> Achille: It is quite complex and we do not have a clear path towards the implementation

Achille Fokoue: It is quite complex and we do not have a clear path towards the implementation [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

17:22:50 <rob> zakim, unmute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, unmute me

17:22:50 <Zakim> rob should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should no longer be muted

17:22:51 <alanr> ack rob

Alan Ruttenberg: ack rob

17:23:16 <Achille> rob: the use cases are not convincing

Rob Shearer: the use cases are not convincing

17:23:25 <Achille> rob: it is a low priority

Rob Shearer: it is a low priority

17:23:36 <Achille> rob: I do not particularly care about N-ary datatypes

Rob Shearer: I do not particularly care about N-ary datatypes

17:23:38 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall

17:23:41 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

17:23:42 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

17:23:42 <bparsia> More details on the use cases are coming; I've had meetings with various people and some examples

Bijan Parsia: More details on the use cases are coming; I've had meetings with various people and some examples

17:24:03 <Achille> msmith: from customers, we hear that it is interesting

Michael Smith: from customers, we hear that it is interesting

17:24:17 <Achille> msmith: it is a gap that i would like to close

Michael Smith: it is a gap that i would like to close

17:24:34 <Achille> boris: I have the feeling that this will be hard to implement

Boris Motik: I have the feeling that this will be hard to implement

17:24:46 <Achille> boris: I'm not convince of the usefulness of N-ary datatypes

Boris Motik: I'm not convince of the usefulness of N-ary datatypes

17:24:52 <uli> zakim, unmute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, unmute me

17:24:52 <Zakim> uli was not muted, uli

Zakim IRC Bot: uli was not muted, uli

17:25:00 <Achille> uli: two things

Uli Sattler: two things

17:25:16 <Achille> uli: various kinds of N-ary

Uli Sattler: various kinds of N-ary

17:25:35 <Achille> uli: linear inequations vs. simple comparison operators only

Uli Sattler: linear inequations vs. simple comparison operators only

17:25:47 <Achille> uli: I am now going to report from racer implementation

Uli Sattler: I am now going to report from racer implementation

17:26:00 <Achille> uli: they did it because of customer's requirements

Uli Sattler: they did it because of customer's requirements

17:26:20 <Zakim> uli should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted

17:26:21 <rob> zakim, unmute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, unmute me

17:26:21 <Achille> uli: they found it usefull and not very hard in practice

Uli Sattler: they found it usefull and not very hard in practice

17:26:23 <Zakim> rob was not muted, rob

Zakim IRC Bot: rob was not muted, rob

17:26:41 <Achille> rob: where are the success stories?

Rob Shearer: where are the success stories?

17:26:48 <uli> zakim, unmute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, unmute me

17:26:48 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should no longer be muted

17:26:58 <Carsten> YES

Carsten Lutz: YES

17:27:14 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

17:27:14 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

17:27:15 <Achille> uli: I'll go back to racer folks to gather more info

Uli Sattler: I'll go back to racer folks to gather more info

17:27:16 <Carsten> zakim, unmute me

Carsten Lutz: zakim, unmute me

17:27:16 <Zakim> Carsten should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should no longer be muted

17:27:29 <rob> zakim, unmute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, unmute me

17:27:29 <Zakim> rob should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should no longer be muted

17:27:39 <Achille> carsten: they consider it very important

Carsten Lutz: they consider it very important

17:28:03 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

17:28:03 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

17:28:04 <ewallace> use cases from Product Modeling XG as well

Evan Wallace: use cases from Product Modeling XG as well

17:28:10 <uli> zakim, mute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me

17:28:10 <Zakim> uli should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted

17:28:12 <Carsten> zakim, mute me

Carsten Lutz: zakim, mute me

17:28:12 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted

17:28:15 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

17:28:15 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted

17:28:15 <Achille> carsten: I disagree on the lack of success stories

Carsten Lutz: I disagree on the lack of success stories

17:28:24 <bparsia> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/N-ary_Data_predicate_use_case

Bijan Parsia: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/N-ary_Data_predicate_use_case

17:28:57 <Achille> bparsia: I spent some time with Robert Stevens and Alan Rector to push for more examples

Bijan Parsia: I spent some time with Robert Stevens and Alan Rector to push for more examples

17:29:50 <Achille> bparsia: even with the simple examples (which could be handled by DL safe rules) , they want N-ary datatype

Bijan Parsia: even with the simple examples (which could be handled by DL safe rules) , they want N-ary datatype

17:30:25 <rob> but what do you expect to infer?

Rob Shearer: but what do you expect to infer?

17:30:25 <Achille> bparsia : this is particularly important for development time

bparsia : this is particularly important for development time

17:30:45 <Carsten> Sure this simple. There are tons of other features in OWL without *sophisticated* use cases

Carsten Lutz: Sure this simple. There are tons of other features in OWL without *sophisticated* use cases

17:30:52 <Achille> bparsia: the way it is done now is true precomputation

Bijan Parsia: the way it is done now is true precomputation

17:31:11 <Achille> bparsia: it does not work very well

Bijan Parsia: it does not work very well

17:31:53 <Achille> bparsia: the owl model becomes too complex in order to get his requirements in

Bijan Parsia: the owl model becomes too complex in order to get his requirements in

17:32:18 <Achille> bparsia: I'll send around his ontology soon

Bijan Parsia: I'll send around his ontology soon

17:32:25 <alanr> q+ to ask whether conversations prioritize level?

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to ask whether conversations prioritize level?

17:32:38 <Achille> bparsia: I was convinced by his use case

Bijan Parsia: I was convinced by his use case

17:32:44 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

17:32:44 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

17:33:08 <Achille> boris: we are not making progress by discussing what is the right use case

Boris Motik: we are not making progress by discussing what is the right use case

17:33:46 <Achille> boris: if we provide a hook to allow implementation to plug their own datatype implementation

Boris Motik: if we provide a hook to allow implementation to plug their own datatype implementation

17:34:09 <Achille> boris: it solves the problem and gives flexibility to implementors

Boris Motik: it solves the problem and gives flexibility to implementors

17:34:30 <Achille> boris: I understand that there are some issues related to interoperability

Boris Motik: I understand that there are some issues related to interoperability

17:35:17 <Achille> alanr: my sense is that, in OWL 1.0, there was no benefit with hook in the spec for datatype implementation

Alan Ruttenberg: my sense is that, in OWL 1.0, there was no benefit with hook in the spec for datatype implementation

17:36:02 <Achille> alanr: so I advocate to leave N-ary datatypes out of the spec, but they can be extensions

Alan Ruttenberg: so I advocate to leave N-ary datatypes out of the spec, but they can be extensions

17:36:06 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

17:36:06 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted

17:36:25 <Achille> alanr: Bijan could you live without inequations,i.e. with only comparisons?

Alan Ruttenberg: Bijan could you live without inequations,i.e. with only comparisons?

17:36:33 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to ask whether conversations prioritize level?

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to ask whether conversations prioritize level?

17:36:39 <Achille> bijan: comparisons would be better than nothing

Bijan Parsia: comparisons would be better than nothing

17:37:13 <Achille> bparsia: there is already an implementation of linear inequations

Bijan Parsia: there is already an implementation of linear inequations

17:37:30 <Achille> bparsia: pellet intends to have something in the space

Bijan Parsia: pellet intends to have something in the space

17:37:50 <Achille> bparsia: so about 3 implementations will be available, and we can test interoperability

Bijan Parsia: so about 3 implementations will be available, and we can test interoperability

17:38:17 <Achille> bparsia: implementation should be encouraged - let's not raise the bar for implementation

Bijan Parsia: implementation should be encouraged - let's not raise the bar for implementation

17:38:30 <alanr> achille - record the 3 implementations?

Alan Ruttenberg: achille - record the 3 implementations?

17:38:52 <Achille>  achille: pellet, racer , fact++

achille: pellet, racer , fact++

17:39:14 <sandro> so ... Bijan is talking about an optional component of some sort ...      something "standard" but not required in any profile.       Interesting.

Sandro Hawke: so ... Bijan is talking about an optional component of some sort ... something "standard" but not required in any profile. Interesting.

17:39:16 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Rees

Zakim IRC Bot: +Jonathan_Rees

17:39:27 <alanr> zakim, Jonathan_Rees is alanr

Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, Jonathan_Rees is alanr

17:39:27 <Zakim> +alanr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +alanr; got it

17:39:51 <Achille> bparsia: we should not worry too much about it before last call

Bijan Parsia: we should not worry too much about it before last call

17:39:54 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

17:39:54 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

17:41:12 <rob> I didn't see use cases where you get anything terribly useful as a result of implementing it.

Rob Shearer: I didn't see use cases where you get anything terribly useful as a result of implementing it.

17:41:24 <msmith> rob, which "it"

Michael Smith: rob, which "it"

17:41:24 <Zakim> -alanr

Zakim IRC Bot: -alanr

17:41:33 <Achille> msmith: it seems to me that some people are not implementing N-ary because the trade off between ease of implementation/usefulness is not in favor of ease of implementation.

Michael Smith: it seems to me that some people are not implementing N-ary because the trade off between ease of implementation/usefulness is not in favor of ease of implementation.

17:41:35 <rob> n-ary datatypes of any kind.

Rob Shearer: n-ary datatypes of any kind.

17:41:42 <bparsia> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/N-ary_Data_predicate_use_case

Bijan Parsia: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/N-ary_Data_predicate_use_case

17:41:45 <msmith> rob, thanks

Michael Smith: rob, thanks

17:42:24 <Achille> topic: Issue 133: DL-Lite Profile modified to include UNA

4. ISSUE-133: DL-Lite Profile modified to include UNA

17:42:24 <Achille> alanr: let's postpone issue 133 for when diego is around

Alan Ruttenberg: let's postpone ISSUE-133 for when diego is around

17:42:52 <Achille> topic: Issue 87: rational datatype

5. ISSUE-87: rational datatype

17:43:30 <bmotik> Achille: I haven't paid much attention to this proposal.

Achille Fokoue: I haven't paid much attention to this proposal. [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

17:43:46 <bmotik> Achille: We haven't seen a use case.

Achille Fokoue: We haven't seen a use case. [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

17:43:50 <rob> zakim, unmute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, unmute me

17:43:52 <Zakim> rob was not muted, rob

Zakim IRC Bot: rob was not muted, rob

17:44:23 <msmith> q+ to clarify what we're talking about

Michael Smith: q+ to clarify what we're talking about

17:44:46 <Achille> rob: allowing constant as rational would not change the semantics at all

Rob Shearer: allowing constant as rational would not change the semantics at all

17:45:03 <Achille> rob: if it is not in the XML schema, so maybe it is not important

Rob Shearer: if it is not in the XML schema, so maybe it is not important

17:45:25 <Achille> rob: defining rational as a value space seems insane

Rob Shearer: defining rational as a value space seems insane

17:45:49 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

17:45:49 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

17:46:00 <bmotik> Achille: We care a lot about XML Schema.

Achille Fokoue: We care a lot about XML Schema. [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

17:46:31 <Zakim> msmith, you wanted to clarify what we're talking about

Zakim IRC Bot: msmith, you wanted to clarify what we're talking about

17:46:37 <bmotik> Achille: We are not entusiastic about rational numbers because they depart from XML Schema.

Achille Fokoue: We are not entusiastic about rational numbers because they depart from XML Schema. [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

17:47:25 <uli> zakim, unmute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, unmute me

17:47:25 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should no longer be muted

17:47:43 <bparsia> http://www.xml.com/lpt/a/1006

Bijan Parsia: http://www.xml.com/lpt/a/1006

17:47:51 <Achille> uli: I agree with mike that nobody even suggested a rational value space

Uli Sattler: I agree with mike that nobody even suggested a rational value space

17:47:53 <bparsia> (for a critique of thelack of rationals in xml schema)

Bijan Parsia: (for a critique of thelack of rationals in xml schema)

17:48:18 <Achille> uli: having rational constants could be very useful if we have comparisons

Uli Sattler: having rational constants could be very useful if we have comparisons

17:48:49 <rob> if you have that stuff then you have an implicit encoding for them, anyway

Rob Shearer: if you have that stuff then you have an implicit encoding for them, anyway

17:48:56 <Achille> uli: it could be useful in the context of comparisons

Uli Sattler: it could be useful in the context of comparisons

17:49:08 <uli> zakim, mute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me

17:49:08 <Zakim> uli should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted

17:49:19 <Achille> bparsia: I do not want to solve equation in rational, but in reals

Bijan Parsia: I do not want to solve equation in rational, but in reals

17:49:29 <bparsia> zakim, muteme

Bijan Parsia: zakim, muteme

17:49:29 <Zakim> I don't understand 'muteme', bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'muteme', bparsia

17:49:34 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

17:49:34 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

17:50:01 <bparsia> Rational constants are much less serious than having a real value space, for sure

Bijan Parsia: Rational constants are much less serious than having a real value space, for sure

17:50:07 <Achille> topic: General Discussion

6. General Discussion

17:50:55 <Achille> alanr: I addressed the error caught by Peter on the annotation's proposal

Alan Ruttenberg: I addressed the error caught by Peter on the annotation's proposal

17:51:16 <bparsia> q+ to explain bundles

Bijan Parsia: q+ to explain bundles

17:51:22 <bparsia> zakim, umute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, umute me

17:51:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'umute me', bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'umute me', bparsia

17:51:28 <Zakim> bparsia, you wanted to explain bundles

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia, you wanted to explain bundles

17:51:33 <Achille> alanr: we could start by some evaluation about if the proposal works and what to do if it does not

Alan Ruttenberg: we could start by some evaluation about if the proposal works and what to do if it does not

17:51:46 <Zakim> -rob

Zakim IRC Bot: -rob

17:52:15 <Achille> alanr: I thought that you had a name for an axiom

Alan Ruttenberg: I thought that you had a name for an axiom

17:52:34 <Achille> alanr: which means that you can have as many statements about the axiom as you want

Alan Ruttenberg: which means that you can have as many statements about the axiom as you want

17:52:53 <Achille> bijan: we do not want people to coin names for all axioms

Bijan Parsia: we do not want people to coin names for all axioms

17:53:06 <Achille> bijan: it has to be done by the implementation

Bijan Parsia: it has to be done by the implementation

17:53:22 <Achille> alanr: I believe my proposal achieve this same goal

Alan Ruttenberg: I believe my proposal achieve this same goal

17:53:33 <Achille> bijan: that's orthorgonal to space

Bijan Parsia: that's orthorgonal to space

17:53:43 <Achille> alanr: this proposal does not have spaces

Alan Ruttenberg: this proposal does not have spaces

17:54:03 <Achille> alanr: if there is a strong desire for spaces we can add it later

Alan Ruttenberg: if there is a strong desire for spaces we can add it later

17:54:19 <Achille> msmith: only one level of annotation?

Michael Smith: only one level of annotation?

17:54:33 <Achille> alanr: yes, for now only one level of annotations

Alan Ruttenberg: yes, for now only one level of annotations

17:54:57 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

17:54:57 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia

17:55:07 <Achille> alanr: Bijan, what is your sense about the effectiveness of this approach?

Alan Ruttenberg: Bijan, what is your sense about the effectiveness of this approach?

17:55:18 <Achille> bparsia: I do not know yet

Bijan Parsia: I do not know yet

17:55:54 <Achille> alanr: Peter has a strong concern about the idea of having two files

Alan Ruttenberg: Peter has a strong concern about the idea of having two files

17:56:07 <Achille> bijan: I agree with Peter

Bijan Parsia: I agree with Peter

17:56:42 <IanH> zakim, unmute me

Ian Horrocks: zakim, unmute me

17:56:42 <Zakim> IanH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: IanH should no longer be muted

17:56:46 <Achille> bparsia: People are in general opposed to multiple file solutions. It is a non-starter

Bijan Parsia: People are in general opposed to multiple file solutions. It is a non-starter

17:57:12 <Achille> alanr: the main reason to having them in separate files is to facilitate SPARQL queries

Alan Ruttenberg: the main reason to having them in separate files is to facilitate SPARQL queries

17:58:01 <Achille> bparsia: it is not substantially easier with a multiple file solution

Bijan Parsia: it is not substantially easier with a multiple file solution

17:58:30 <Achille> ianh: I agree with bijan. I remember similar issues raising in the context of DAML/OIL

Ian Horrocks: I agree with bijan. I remember similar issues raising in the context of DAML/OIL

17:59:01 <bmotik> Achille: I'm on the same page as Bijan.

Achille Fokoue: I'm on the same page as Bijan. [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

17:59:27 <Achille> Boris: I have not been able to see the proposal

Boris Motik: I have not been able to see the proposal

17:59:41 <Achille> Boris: I would prefer a single file in general

Boris Motik: I would prefer a single file in general

18:00:35 <Achille> alanr: we need bijan and boris to have a close look at the proposal

Alan Ruttenberg: we need bijan and boris to have a close look at the proposal

18:00:55 <Achille> bparsia: you should also contact Deborah

Bijan Parsia: you should also contact Deborah

18:01:05 <alanr> action: bparsia to analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2

ACTION: bparsia to analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2

18:01:05 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - bparsia

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - bparsia

18:01:15 <Achille> bparsia: she was interested in the issue

Bijan Parsia: she was interested in the issue

18:01:24 <alanr> action: bmotik to analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2

ACTION: bmotik to analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2

18:01:24 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - bmotik

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - bmotik

18:01:45 <alanr> action: alanr to ask Deb about nesting level of annotations on annotations.

ACTION: alanr to ask Deb about nesting level of annotations on annotations.

18:01:45 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr

18:02:30 <Achille> topic: issue 16

7. ISSUE-16

18:02:53 <Achille> alanr: we should not discuss this issue since it is subsumed by rich annotation

Alan Ruttenberg: we should not discuss this issue since it is subsumed by rich annotation

18:03:12 <Achille> topic: issues of time and date related datatypes
18:03:16 <Rinke> action: alan to ask Deb about nesting level of annotations on annotations

ACTION: alan to ask Deb about nesting level of annotations on annotations

18:03:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-169 - Ask Deb about nesting level of annotations on annotations [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-07-30].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-169 - Ask Deb about nesting level of annotations on annotations [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-07-30].

18:03:29 <Rinke> action: bijan to analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2

ACTION: bijan to analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2

18:03:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-170 - Analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2 [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-07-30].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-170 - Analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2 [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-07-30].

18:03:42 <Rinke> action: boris to analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2

ACTION: boris to analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2

18:03:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-171 - Analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2 [on Boris Motik - due 2008-07-30].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-171 - Analyze and comment on Annotation_System_2 [on Boris Motik - due 2008-07-30].

18:03:58 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

18:03:58 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia

18:04:00 <alanr> ack bparsia

Alan Ruttenberg: ack bparsia

18:04:00 <Achille> alanr: most problems have to do with time zone and non-time zone datatypes

Alan Ruttenberg: most problems have to do with time zone and non-time zone datatypes

18:04:08 <ewallace> calendar elements are the problem mentioned in Boris' email

Evan Wallace: calendar elements are the problem mentioned in Boris' email

18:04:17 <Achille> bparsia: they are nonstarters

Bijan Parsia: they are nonstarters

18:05:01 <Achille> bparsia: there are so many ways to integrate the notion of time in owl. It is not clear that our solution will not be too constraining

Bijan Parsia: there are so many ways to integrate the notion of time in owl. It is not clear that our solution will not be too constraining

18:05:03 <alanr> q+ to make suggestion

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to make suggestion

18:05:05 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

18:05:05 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

18:05:53 <Achille> alanr: two levels of supports: 1) actual time point or interval 2) the second level are intervals

Alan Ruttenberg: two levels of supports: 1) actual time point or interval 2) the second level are intervals

18:06:27 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to make suggestion

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to make suggestion

18:06:27 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

18:06:30 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted

18:07:03 <Achille> bparsia: any implementers interested in supporting it?

Bijan Parsia: any implementers interested in supporting it?

18:07:24 <Achille> bparsia: it is not clear how to design a solution that fit XML schema

Bijan Parsia: it is not clear how to design a solution that fit XML schema

18:08:04 <Achille> alanr: we can do something close to owl real (a departure from XML schema)

Alan Ruttenberg: we can do something close to owl real (a departure from XML schema)

18:08:20 <Achille> boris: supporting xsd:dateTime is not trival

Boris Motik: supporting xsd:dateTime is not trival

18:08:41 <Achille> boris: supporting recurring intervals is even more complex

Boris Motik: supporting recurring intervals is even more complex

18:08:52 <bparsia> What about the simpler version: No support

Bijan Parsia: What about the simpler version: No support

18:09:10 <bparsia> THen the next simplest: treat them as strings (roughly) with colors

Bijan Parsia: THen the next simplest: treat them as strings (roughly) with colors

18:09:10 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider

18:09:18 <Achille> alanr: it will be useful to support some simple manipulation with time instants

Alan Ruttenberg: it will be useful to support some simple manipulation with time instants

18:09:30 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

18:09:30 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia

18:09:32 <alanr> ack bparsia

Alan Ruttenberg: ack bparsia

18:09:47 <Achille> bparsia: there are simpler options:

Bijan Parsia: there are simpler options:

18:09:54 <Achille> bparsia: 1) do nothing

Bijan Parsia: 1) do nothing

18:10:21 <Achille> bparsia: 2) support them but in a very minimal way

Bijan Parsia: 2) support them but in a very minimal way

18:10:37 <Achille> bparsia: maybe just treat them as string

Bijan Parsia: maybe just treat them as string

18:10:54 <Achille> bparsia: i.e. no commitment to any temporal model

Bijan Parsia: i.e. no commitment to any temporal model

18:11:51 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#dateTime

Michael Smith: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#dateTime

18:12:00 <alanr> q+ to comment on tz

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to comment on tz

18:12:10 <Achille> boris: for instant, it could be doable . I am not sure xsd:dateTime is the right type (I do not really understand its value space)

Boris Motik: for instant, it could be doable . I am not sure xsd:dateTime is the right type (I do not really understand its value space)

18:12:30 <Achille> boris: with a fixed time zone, it could be easy to support

Boris Motik: with a fixed time zone, it could be easy to support

18:12:57 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to comment on tz

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to comment on tz

18:13:13 <bmotik> Achille: I would like us to keep in sync as much as we can with XML Schema

Achille Fokoue: I would like us to keep in sync as much as we can with XML Schema [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

18:13:26 <bmotik> Achille: There are many existing implementations of XML Schema

Achille Fokoue: There are many existing implementations of XML Schema [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

18:13:31 <ewallace> TimeLine = Time Axis or Time Scale?

Evan Wallace: TimeLine = Time Axis or Time Scale?

18:13:33 <Achille> boris: I think we would have to go away from XML Schema

Boris Motik: I think we would have to go away from XML Schema

18:14:37 <alanr> xml schema: dateTime values are ordered by their ·timeOnTimeline· value.

Alan Ruttenberg: xml schema: dateTime values are ordered by their ·timeOnTimeline· value.

18:14:53 <Achille> bparsia: number case is a much easy case. I think we are less force in the case of time to depart from XML Schema

Bijan Parsia: number case is a much easy case. I think we are less force in the case of time to depart from XML Schema

18:15:28 <Achille> bparsia: i'm unclear what the constraints are and where we are going

Bijan Parsia: i'm unclear what the constraints are and where we are going

18:15:29 <uli> zakim, unmute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, unmute me

18:15:30 <Zakim> uli was not muted, uli

Zakim IRC Bot: uli was not muted, uli

18:16:25 <alanr> this is the sense that I intended - very easy way

Alan Ruttenberg: this is the sense that I intended - very easy way

18:16:30 <Achille> uli: Just remember some discussions we had, there are some simple usecases which can be supported if we had some datetime constants

Uli Sattler: Just remember some discussions we had, there are some simple usecases which can be supported if we had some datetime constants

18:16:44 <uli> zakim, mute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me

18:16:44 <Zakim> uli should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted

18:16:53 <Rinke> I agree with uli

Rinke Hoekstra: I agree with uli

18:17:04 <Achille> alanr: there are serious questions about date time datatype

Alan Ruttenberg: there are serious questions about date time datatype

18:17:28 <Achille> alanr: do we think it is worth thinking about this issue further?

Alan Ruttenberg: do we think it is worth thinking about this issue further?

18:17:39 <msmith> +1 to think about this further

Michael Smith: +1 to think about this further

18:17:44 <Achille> alanr: or just a sentiment poll?

Alan Ruttenberg: or just a sentiment poll?

18:17:54 <Rinke> +1 to think further

Rinke Hoekstra: +1 to think further

18:18:07 <sandro> +1 more work for free is great!   :-)

Sandro Hawke: +1 more work for free is great! :-)

18:18:08 <ewallace> +1 to generation of a proposal for simple time rep

Evan Wallace: +1 to generation of a proposal for simple time rep

18:18:13 <Zhe> +1 need more time

Zhe Wu: +1 need more time

18:18:16 <Achille> achille: 0

Achille Fokoue: 0

18:18:19 <bmotik> 0

Boris Motik: 0

18:18:20 <baojie> 0

Jie Bao: 0

18:18:21 <ivan> 0

Ivan Herman: 0

18:18:23 <alanr> +1

Alan Ruttenberg: +1

18:18:26 <Elisa> +1 for the simple case

Elisa Kendall: +1 for the simple case

18:18:32 <bparsia> -1 to requesting more work of overloaded people...

Bijan Parsia: -1 to requesting more work of overloaded people...

18:18:33 <uli> +1 for a bit more thought

Uli Sattler: +1 for a bit more thought

18:18:51 <IanH> 0 not *too* much more thought

Ian Horrocks: 0 not *too* much more thought

18:18:58 <Achille> alanr: objection from bijan

Alan Ruttenberg: objection from bijan

18:19:23 <Achille> alanr: I'll leave it to uli and boris about how to proceed further

Alan Ruttenberg: I'll leave it to uli and boris about how to proceed further

18:19:53 <Achille> alanr: going back to the datatype issue: how and whether to support the float

Alan Ruttenberg: going back to the datatype issue: how and whether to support the float

18:21:10 <Achille> ewallace: I'm not prepare to talk about this issue today

Evan Wallace: I'm not prepare to talk about this issue today

18:21:23 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

18:21:23 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia

18:21:48 <msmith> q+

Michael Smith: q+

18:21:53 <Achille> bparsia: the proposal is just fine

Bijan Parsia: the proposal is just fine

18:22:02 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/mid/005b01c8e764$56a68a80$7212a8c0@wolf

Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/mid/005b01c8e764$56a68a80$7212a8c0@wolf

18:22:36 <Achille> bparsia: we are supporting the more commun case and the more likely to be effective case

Bijan Parsia: we are supporting the more commun case and the more likely to be effective case

18:22:38 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

18:22:38 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

18:23:05 <alanr> q+ to express uncertainty about whether range constraints are useful

Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to express uncertainty about whether range constraints are useful

18:23:06 <Achille> msmith: I need a clarification from boris. would float acceptable in datatype restriction?

Michael Smith: I need a clarification from boris. would float acceptable in datatype restriction?

18:23:37 <Achille> boris: i do not see a problem in using it in description as long as it is not discrete

Boris Motik: i do not see a problem in using it in description as long as it is not discrete

18:23:57 <Achille> boris: can be supported for a few facets

Boris Motik: can be supported for a few facets

18:24:15 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to express uncertainty about whether range constraints are useful

Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to express uncertainty about whether range constraints are useful

18:25:27 <Achille> achille: alanr could you type your previous point. i did not get it

Achille Fokoue: alanr could you type your previous point. i did not get it

18:25:53 <Achille> achille: thanks!

Achille Fokoue: thanks!

18:27:23 <alanr> I am uncertain whether it makes sense to have a float datatype which is effectively faceted range on possible reals. Certainly think that lexical support support and checking is useful.

Alan Ruttenberg: I am uncertain whether it makes sense to have a float datatype which is effectively faceted range on possible reals. Certainly think that lexical support support and checking is useful.

18:26:22 <Achille> alanr: any question about the next f2f?

Alan Ruttenberg: any question about the next f2f?

18:26:33 <Zakim> -uli

Zakim IRC Bot: -uli

18:26:34 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace

Zakim IRC Bot: -Evan_Wallace

18:26:34 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider

18:26:36 <Zakim> -msmith

Zakim IRC Bot: -msmith

18:26:37 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall

Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall

18:26:39 <Zakim> -bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: -bparsia

18:26:41 <Zakim> -alanr.a

Zakim IRC Bot: -alanr.a

18:26:43 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

18:26:44 <Zakim> -Zhe

Zakim IRC Bot: -Zhe

18:26:44 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

18:26:45 <Zakim> -Carsten

Zakim IRC Bot: -Carsten

18:26:47 <Zakim> -IanH

Zakim IRC Bot: -IanH

18:26:55 <Zakim> -Rinke

Zakim IRC Bot: -Rinke

18:27:19 <Achille> rrsagent, make log public

rrsagent, make log public


This revision (#1) generated 2008-07-26 23:45:04 UTC by 'afokoue', comments: None