17:52:02 RRSAgent has joined #owl 17:52:02 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/12/19-owl-irc 17:54:30 zakim, this is owl 17:54:30 ok, bijan; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM 17:54:31 +??P2 17:54:42 zakim, ??P2 is me 17:54:42 +bijan; got it 17:54:48 zakim, mute me 17:54:48 sorry, bijan, muting is not permitted when only one person is present 17:54:57 IanH has joined #owl 17:55:05 bmotik has joined #owl 17:55:39 + +1.312.052.aaaa 17:55:51 zakim, 1.312.052.aaaa is me 17:55:51 sorry, Rinke, I do not recognize a party named '1.312.052.aaaa' 17:56:02 +??P4 17:56:12 zakim, aaaa is me 17:56:12 +Rinke; got it 17:56:12 Zakim, ??P4 is me 17:56:13 +bmotik; got it 17:56:19 Zakim, mute me 17:56:19 bmotik should now be muted 17:56:22 zakim, mute me 17:56:22 bijan should now be muted 17:56:22 zakim, mute me 17:56:24 Rinke should now be muted 17:56:52 It is eerily silent on the line 17:57:22 alanr has joined #owl 17:57:52 Bijan, how did you type your last comment into the IRC? 17:58:07 ivan has joined #owl 17:58:09 I see that it is diffrent, but I don't understand what the difference is 17:58:15 +IanH 17:58:49 And this is then not in the log, or? 17:58:55 + +1.617.253.aabb 17:58:59 ewallace has joined #owl 17:59:01 Elisa has joined #owl 17:59:03 zakim, aabb is me 17:59:03 +alanr; got it 17:59:06 zakim, dial ivan-voip 17:59:06 ok, ivan; the call is being made 17:59:08 +Ivan 17:59:12 jeremy has joined #owl 17:59:33 +??P11 17:59:42 zakim, ??p11 is me 17:59:42 +pfps; got it 17:59:44 +Elisa_Kendall 17:59:47 zakim, mute me 17:59:47 pfps should now be muted 18:00:04 Zhe has joined #owl 18:00:12 evrensirin has joined #owl 18:00:24 +Sandro 18:00:31 +Evan_Wallace 18:00:34 +Zhe 18:00:35 bcuencag has joined #owl 18:00:49 bernardo, can you scribe? 18:01:29 +msmith 18:01:39 Zakim, unmute me 18:01:39 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:01:46 +??P17 18:02:14 MarkusK has joined #owl 18:02:19 zakim, msmith is temporarily evrensirin 18:02:19 +evrensirin; got it 18:02:32 +??P18 18:02:36 sandro has joined #owl 18:02:44 zakim,??P17 is me 18:02:44 +bcuencag; got it 18:03:07 +??P19 18:03:12 zakim, msmith is evrensirin 18:03:12 sorry, bijan, I do not recognize a party named 'msmith' 18:03:31 zakim, who is here? 18:03:31 On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke (muted), bmotik, IanH, alanr, Ivan, pfps (muted), Elisa_Kendall, Sandro, Evan_Wallace, Zhe, evrensirin, bcuencag, jeremy, MarkusK 18:03:32 evren is scribe? 18:03:35 On IRC I see sandro, MarkusK, bcuencag, evrensirin, Zhe, jeremy, Elisa, ewallace, ivan, alanr, bmotik, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, Rinke, bijan, trackbot-ng 18:03:46 Zakim, mute me 18:03:46 bmotik should now be muted 18:04:08 Carsten has joined #owl 18:04:20 Evrin: Can you scribe? 18:04:46 scribenick: evrensirin 18:04:53 zakim, who is here? 18:04:53 On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke (muted), bmotik (muted), IanH (muted), alanr, Ivan, pfps (muted), Elisa_Kendall, Sandro, Evan_Wallace, Zhe, evrensirin, bcuencag, jeremy 18:04:57 ... (muted), MarkusK (muted) 18:04:58 On IRC I see Carsten, sandro, MarkusK, bcuencag, evrensirin, Zhe, jeremy, Elisa, ewallace, ivan, alanr, bmotik, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, Rinke, bijan, trackbot-ng 18:04:59 Zakim, unmute me 18:04:59 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:05:16 evrensirin, the main thing is to record more-or-less what people say as nickname: what they say 18:05:33 +??P20 18:05:35 Zakim, mute me 18:05:35 bmotik should now be muted 18:05:44 sandro, ok 18:05:46 zakim, p20 is carsten 18:05:46 sorry, Carsten, I do not recognize a party named 'p20' 18:05:53 PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes 18:05:56 zakim, P20 is Carsten 18:05:56 sorry, Carsten, I do not recognize a party named 'P20' 18:05:58 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.12.12/Minutes 18:05:59 zakim, ??P20 is carsten 18:05:59 +carsten; got it 18:06:05 thanks, ivan 18:06:10 zakim, mute me 18:06:10 carsten should now be muted 18:06:24 zakim, mute me 18:06:24 bcuencag should now be muted 18:06:25 Resolved: Accept Previous Minutes 18:06:34 They did 18:06:44 Ian added them 18:06:46 JeffP has joined #owl 18:07:46 +??P22 18:07:53 zakim, P22 is me 18:07:53 sorry, JeffP, I do not recognize a party named 'P22' 18:08:02 zakim, mute me 18:08:02 pfps was already muted, pfps 18:08:06 zakim, ?P22 is me 18:08:06 sorry, JeffP, I do not recognize a party named '?P22' 18:08:20 zakim, +??P22 is me 18:08:20 sorry, JeffP, I do not recognize a party named '+??P22' 18:08:31 yes, I'm waiting for Sandro to push the button 18:08:36 zakim, ??P22 is JeffP 18:08:36 +JeffP; got it 18:08:49 bijan, thx 18:08:57 pfps has joined #owl 18:09:21 So this means no publication until after Jan 2 (/me notes) 18:09:49 No I mean that the publication moratoriam; it ends on Jan 2 18:11:14 alanr: action 4, are we using redirects? 18:11:33 sandro: we can cancel the action 18:11:53 there are *still* people who haven't signed on to the wiki 18:11:57 zakim, unmute me 18:11:57 bijan should no longer be muted 18:12:32 zakim, mute me 18:12:32 bijan should now be muted 18:12:44 ian: there are still people without wiki accounts 18:12:59 scribenick: evrensirin 18:13:01 just a comment 18:13:10 How do people scribe if they don't have accounts? 18:13:27 So that's a forcing function 18:13:58 A simple captcha can prevent spam. There are simple solutions to that. 18:14:26 (note steve battle is HP's alternate, and so far has not done anything, other than attend F2F because of HP's internal decisions about representation etc.) 18:14:36 (note steve does not have an account) 18:14:48 MarkusK, captcha's don't prevent spam -- we get spam from real humans. 18:15:10 alanr: update the deadline for action 23 18:15:10 OK, human spam is of course different. 18:15:35 alanr: mid-january for action 23 18:16:10 Is it just me or is Alan a very long way away? 18:16:12 I don't remember anything related to that issue at the F2F. 18:16:15 Huh? 18:16:18 q+ 18:16:26 zakim, unmute me 18:16:26 bijan should no longer be muted 18:16:28 q+ 18:16:34 ack bijan 18:16:38 zakim, unmute me 18:16:38 pfps should no longer be muted 18:16:47 I Bthink this action should continue 18:17:06 alanr: do we want punning on object and datatype properties? 18:17:10 bijan: does it matter? 18:17:25 Zakim, unmute me 18:17:25 jeremy should no longer be muted 18:17:26 q? 18:17:30 zakim, mute me 18:17:30 bijan should now be muted 18:17:33 q- 18:17:34 jeremy received this action at the FTF 18:17:36 alanr: describe the problem in detail 18:18:40 Zakim, mute me 18:18:40 jeremy should now be muted 18:18:42 There is no call next week! 18:19:04 Yes 18:19:05 zakim, mute me 18:19:05 pfps should now be muted 18:19:09 alanr: update the deadline for action 48 18:19:43 I recall asking for a grammar 18:19:52 ian: zhe will write OWLPrime spec in a similar format to others 18:20:32 zhe: trying to figure out if RDFS 3.0 vocabulary can be mapped to DL-Lite or EL++ 18:21:09 zhe: summary could be in wiki in January 18:21:34 zhe: update deadline for action 54 18:21:50 I don't want a meeting in any case 18:22:12 Uli is out sick 18:22:44 alanr: continue Uli's actions 55 and 56 18:22:49 bcuencagrau has joined #owl 18:23:01 ian: there were pending review items 18:23:28 zakim, mute me 18:23:28 sorry, bcuencagrau, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 18:23:40 ian: pending means people want confirmation that it is finished 18:23:51 zakim, ??P17 is me 18:23:51 I already had ??P17 as bcuencag, bcuencagrau 18:24:34 zakim, unmute me 18:24:34 pfps should no longer be muted 18:24:40 I was confused by that as there were extant imports proposals (e.g., from my email from before the f2f) 18:25:07 alanr: accept action 36, 40, 41 as closed 18:26:02 Zakim, unmute me 18:26:02 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:26:42 OWL 1.1 uses constants to describe atomic values, such as strings or integers. These are encoded as in the Turtle specification[TURTLE]. 18:26:43 constant := the same as the literal production in the Turtle specification [TURTLE] 18:26:52 (from http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax ) 18:27:27 This maybe: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/index.php?title=Syntax&diff=2108&oldid=2107 18:27:28 alanr: can you put the revision of wiki page regarding action 57 18:28:18 alanr: there should be a note in the tracker about the action 18:28:42 This might be a better one: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/index.php?title=Syntax&diff=2107&oldid=2103 18:28:52 For clairfication: this was about actions not issues? 18:28:59 alanr: goal is for someone to understand what the action is and how it was resolved 18:29:04 alanr: people can review easily 18:29:31 alanr: pending review actions completed 18:29:46 zakim, unmute me 18:29:46 pfps was not muted, pfps 18:29:51 Zakim, mute me 18:29:51 bmotik should now be muted 18:30:04 pfps: put a link to wiki 18:30:20 pfps: location is Gaithersburg, MD 18:30:30 zwu2 has joined #owl 18:30:48 alanr: personally encourage people to attend OWLED 18:30:54 bcuencag has joined #owl 18:30:55 zakim, mute me 18:30:55 pfps should now be muted 18:31:03 Zhe has joined #owl 18:31:19 zakim, mute me 18:31:19 bcuencag was already muted, bcuencag 18:31:28 alanr: establish RDF mapping task force 18:31:30 plus Jeremy 18:32:53 Jeremy, Peter, Johnathan, Ian, Alan, Boris 18:33:18 task force will create a wiki page 18:33:28 address open issues regarding RDF mapping 18:33:33 ensure backward compatibility 18:33:33 q+ to ask about Jonathan 18:33:40 Zakim, unmute me 18:33:40 jeremy should no longer be muted 18:33:42 q? 18:33:47 ack jeremy 18:33:47 jeremy, you wanted to ask about Jonathan 18:34:12 Zakim, mute me 18:34:12 jeremy should now be muted 18:34:15 q? 18:34:32 alanr: let's discuss imports 18:34:34 jeremy: is Jonathan a WG participant 18:34:34 Zakim, unmute me 18:34:34 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:34:40 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports 18:34:43 alanr: he is in process of joining 18:35:08 The email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Dec/0183.html 18:35:26 boris: imports are by ontology URI but physical URI may be different 18:35:29 BTW, I don't understand the comment "Bijan, I believe you were supposed to put this somewhere on the Web page, right?" 18:36:07 boris: propose to have oracles to map ontology URIs to physical URIs 18:36:31 boris: a file based oracle plus hints in the imports 18:36:35 q+ 18:36:36 q+ to ask about interoperability benefits? 18:36:36 q+ 18:36:42 zakim, ack 18:36:42 I don't understand 'ack', bijan 18:36:43 ack bijan 18:36:43 ack bijan 18:36:48 boris: if all else fails try ontology URI 18:36:55 zakim, unmute me 18:36:55 pfps should no longer be muted 18:37:18 q+ 18:37:26 bijan: XML catalog has similar mechanism 18:37:35 ack jeremy 18:37:36 jeremy, you wanted to ask about interoperability benefits? 18:37:36 zakim, mute me 18:37:36 ack jeremy 18:37:38 bijan should now be muted 18:37:43 bijan: Protege and TBC has similar mechanisms 18:37:58 +1 for specification 18:38:02 Can I answer this please? 18:38:07 jeremy: do we need to specify the mechanism for interoperability? 18:38:08 q+ to explain versioning use case 18:38:29 q- 18:38:30 Topbraid uses the xml:base instead of an ontology uri to resolve imports to local files 18:38:34 Zakim, mute me 18:38:34 jeremy should now be muted 18:38:49 yes 18:38:55 q? 18:38:59 I concur with Jeremy 18:38:59 ack sandro 18:39:00 q+ 18:39:04 jeremy: why does boris's proprosal benefit interoperability? 18:39:19 jeremy: all the tools have this sort of caching mechanism, of course. 18:39:45 jeremy: but for interop we should specify the Web as where your documents are stored 18:39:47 +1 to sandro - web uber alle 18:39:57 s/alle/alles/ 18:40:00 q+ 18:40:23 jeremy: and it is a tool matter how caching, temporary copies etc. etc. 18:40:25 s/uber/Ã¼ber/ 18:40:29 -1 to sandro 18:40:36 q+ 18:40:43 sandro: I'd be much more comfortable with this mechanism if it were sold as "here's a manual override" if you really need it. 18:40:47 sandro: we should first try ontology URI then manual override 18:40:48 q+ to argue against sandro for first web then fallback 18:40:57 Does this include file:// uris? 18:41:06 boris: in practice, you don't retrieve ontologies from the web 18:41:09 Does this mean you need to synch ontology name and location? 18:41:11 I was NOT saying "web first then fallback". Manual override comes first. 18:41:19 boris: most of the time they are local 18:41:28 yes, understood that, apologies for misphrasing 18:41:45 -1 on most of the time ontologies are local 18:42:01 boris: trying web first is fine but it is important to say there is another mechanism 18:42:03 q? 18:42:06 ack alanr 18:42:06 alanr, you wanted to explain versioning use case 18:42:10 XML uses the xml:base to state where an xml file is supposedly located 18:42:35 q- 18:43:07 alanr: chair hat off, a use case for imports regarding versioning 18:43:10 q? 18:43:16 alanr: multiple versions of the same ontology 18:43:35 jeremy (on irc): * jeremy is happy with Sandro's clarification [since /me things are not recorded] 18:43:41 This seems like http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Imports#Imports_is_by_Location_.28with_Version_extension.29 18:43:56 alanr: ontology is same but location for different versions change 18:44:13 q? 18:44:21 alanr: a differetn use case then caching 18:44:24 I think that different versions are *different* ontologies 18:44:30 +1 18:44:41 zakim, unmute me 18:44:41 pfps was not muted, pfps 18:44:56 alanr: local file does not work well with Web 18:45:13 alanr: have the mapping in a Web file 18:45:30 q? 18:45:31 q? 18:45:31 ok, I'll chew on this for a bit 18:45:45 ack bmotik 18:45:46 I tend to treat different versions, esp during development, as "the same" ontology 18:45:54 alan: treating different versions as different ontologies doesn't work for the users I've worked with on this. 18:46:18 boris: true, but using different-location to solve the versioning problem isn't a great solution either. 18:46:24 boris: if we want to solve versioning problem we need to look at it independent of imports 18:46:39 name == location is only true of OWL DL; owl full doesn't require that 18:46:57 q? 18:47:37 pfps: solution to versioning is same as W3C versioning 18:47:41 q+ to respond to Boris re: versioning/import 18:47:51 pfps: as I proposed in the F2F 18:48:30 zakim, unmute me 18:48:30 bijan should no longer be muted 18:48:30 ack pfps 18:48:39 ack bijan 18:48:40 zakim, mute me 18:48:40 pfps should now be muted 18:49:03 what is an ontology name good for? 18:49:44 see the imports page 18:49:58 peter, could you q up to describe your proposal quickly 18:50:09 bijan: I work with command line tools and local files 18:50:11 q+ 18:50:17 zakim, unmute me 18:50:17 pfps should no longer be muted 18:50:30 bijan: putting a mapping on the Web does not work for those cases 18:50:41 zakim, mute me 18:50:41 bijan should now be muted 18:50:43 ack alanr 18:50:43 alanr, you wanted to respond to Boris re: versioning/import 18:51:20 q+ to ask bijan why his use case requires the spec to address it? 18:51:27 alanr: I'm reluctant on imports solution without considering versioning 18:51:31 q+ 18:51:47 Addendum to Bijan's remark: confusion is even worse because there's nothing that relates the RDF representation of an ontology with the classes/axioms in that ontology other than that they are both 'in' the same file 18:51:59 +1 to Rinke 18:52:00 alanr: putting a map might not work always but there should be a possiblity to do so 18:52:34 q? 18:52:51 alanr: even if the contents might change ontology identity name remains same 18:52:52 Addendum to me: having a tool fail an import because the ontology URI is distinct from the location really frustrated me (Protege 4 had this for a while) 18:53:21 q? 18:53:25 q- 18:53:30 +1 18:53:32 ian +1 18:53:32 zakim, mute me 18:53:32 pfps should now be muted 18:53:36 ian: since alanr is discussing I'll chair this discussion 18:53:37 ack jeremy 18:53:38 jeremy, you wanted to ask bijan why his use case requires the spec to address it? 18:53:38 Zakim, unmute me 18:53:41 jeremy was not muted, jeremy 18:54:30 It's relevant in that right now the discussion in the spec is confusing and tools vary a lot 18:54:46 So anything we do to help the tools converge helps a lot 18:54:53 Zakim, mute me 18:54:53 jeremy should now be muted 18:54:54 q? 18:54:57 the problem is that people use multiple tools, jeremy 18:55:01 ack bmotik 18:55:01 q+ to reply to jeremy 18:55:03 zakim, list attendees 18:55:03 As of this point the attendees have been bijan, +1.312.052.aaaa, Rinke, bmotik, IanH, +1.617.253.aabb, alanr, Ivan, pfps, Elisa_Kendall, Sandro, Evan_Wallace, Zhe, evrensirin, 18:55:06 ... bcuencag, MarkusK, jeremy, carsten, JeffP 18:55:11 q? 18:55:22 zakim, who is on the call 18:55:22 I don't understand 'who is on the call', sandro 18:55:23 +1 to at least clear up the confusion and *then* decide on what we want to standardise or leave to the tools 18:55:24 zakim, who is on the call? 18:55:24 On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke (muted), bmotik, IanH, alanr, Ivan, pfps (muted), Elisa_Kendall, Sandro, Evan_Wallace, Zhe, evrensirin, bcuencag (muted), jeremy (muted), 18:55:27 ... MarkusK (muted), carsten (muted), JeffP 18:55:30 q? 18:56:00 boris: spec should be precise with regards to how imports work 18:56:09 Present: bijan, Rinke, bmotik, IanH, alanr, Ivan, pfps, Elisa_Kendall, Sandro, Evan_Wallace, Zhe, evrensirin, bcuencag, jeremy, MarkusK, carsten, JeffP 18:56:11 +1 to boris 18:56:20 zakim, unmute me 18:56:20 bijan should no longer be muted 18:56:26 ack bijan 18:56:26 bijan, you wanted to reply to jeremy 18:56:28 boris: otherwise developers come up with different solutions 18:56:38 q? 18:56:42 bijan: I agree with boris, this is a spec issue 18:56:43 +1 to clarification 18:57:05 zakim, mute me 18:57:05 bijan should now be muted 18:58:18 alanr: we are not that far away from a solution 18:58:34 alanr: get interested people discuss the issue 18:58:49 alanr: after we have consensus that this is a spec issue 18:58:52 -Elisa_Kendall 18:59:02 alanr: maybe do a straw poll 18:59:13 +1 to speccing imports 18:59:17