15:57:00 RRSAgent has joined #swd 15:57:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc 15:57:03 rrsagent, bookmark 15:57:03 See http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T15-57-03 15:57:09 zakim, this will be swd 15:57:09 ok, TomB, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started 15:57:13 Meeting: SWD WG 15:57:16 Chair: Tom 15:57:31 Clay has joined #swd 15:57:32 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Dec/0097.html 15:57:39 Regrerts: Guus, Vit, Simone 15:58:21 Regrets: Guus, Vit, Simone 15:58:28 +??P5 15:58:29 rrsagent, please make record public 15:58:34 -??P1 15:58:36 +??P1 15:58:38 seanb has joined #swd 15:58:46 +[LC] 15:58:49 zakim, ??P1 is Quentin 15:58:49 +Quentin; got it 15:58:58 zakim, LC is Clay 15:58:58 +Clay; got it 15:59:29 zakim, ??P5 is TomB 15:59:29 +TomB; got it 16:00:30 ed has joined #swd 16:00:55 + +012355aaaa 16:01:09 zakim, aaaa is aliman 16:01:11 +aliman; got it 16:01:22 +[LC] 16:01:26 zakim, LC is edsu 16:01:26 +edsu; got it 16:01:44 Ralph has joined #swd 16:02:45 +Ralph 16:03:06 berrueta has joined #swd 16:03:23 -> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html previous 2007-12-11 16:03:36 +??P44 16:03:36 marghe has joined #swd 16:03:47 +[LC] 16:03:49 zakim, ??P44 is seanb 16:03:49 +seanb; got it 16:04:04 zakim, LC is Justin 16:04:04 +Justin; got it 16:04:30 +Margherita 16:06:22 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose seanb 16:06:24 +??P57 16:06:33 zakim, ??P57 is Daniel 16:06:35 dlrubin has joined #swd 16:06:38 +Daniel; got it 16:06:57 scribenick: seanb 16:07:31 JonP has joined #swd 16:07:53 Topic: ADMIN 16:08:09 Proposed to accept minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html 16:08:20 +Rodrigo 16:08:27 zakim, Rodrigo is me 16:08:28 +Jon_Phipps 16:08:29 +berrueta; got it 16:08:30 -aliman 16:08:30 Resolved 16:08:54 Next telecon: 8th January 2008 16:08:58 Topic: SKOS 16:09:17 zakim, Jon_Phipps is me 16:09:18 +JonP; got it 16:09:37 -berrueta 16:09:42 aliman: aye 16:10:04 /me almost there 16:10:11 +??P66 16:10:19 Sean: Alistair responded to Vit saying he'd hoped to have a version of SKOS Reference Editor's Draft by the end of this week 16:10:22 zakim, ??P66 is aliman 16:10:22 +aliman; got it 16:10:44 Alistair: Hoping to have version for review by end of the week 16:11:03 ...first draft of sections on Conceptual Resoruces, Concept Schemes 16:11:15 ...Lexical Lables, Documentation properties, semantic relationsips 16:11:22 +berrueta 16:11:22 ...still to do a couple of sections. 16:11:37 ...ideally first draft by end of the week. Need to hook up with Sean over 16:11:45 ...content and rules of thumb. 16:12:12 ACTION: Quentin to review Editor's draft of SKOS Reference [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-swd-minutes.html#action02] 16:12:15 --continues 16:12:22 ACTION: Vit to review Editor's draft of SKOS Reference [recorded in ]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-swd-minutes.html#action03] 16:12:25 --continues 16:12:34 SKOS Primer 16:12:43 ACTION: Alistair and Guus write draft section in primer on relationship between SKOS concepts and OWL classes for OWL DL users [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-minutes.html#action05] 16:12:45 --continues 16:13:04 Alistair: Antoine has volunteered to write something for the primer. Alistair has 16:13:17 ...said yes please, go ahead and we can decide where it goes later. 16:13:45 Ed: Haven't had a lot of time to dedicate to it. Antoine has been making 16:13:58 ...progress. Posting links on wiki as the document unfolds. 16:13:59 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/DraftPrimer 16:14:09 Tom: Fine to use the wiki for drafting docs. 16:14:39 Tom: Projected goal for draft? 16:14:59 Ed: Goal was to have a fair amount for today. Realistically required stable Reference 16:15:05 ...Antoint and Ed 16:15:15 ...will hopefully knock out simple stuff this week. 16:15:43 Alistair: Reference as it is (in w3 space) is not an editors draft yet, so could 16:15:55 ...potentially change. Please look as early as possible at the content. 16:16:12 ...Shout asap if anything doesn't make sense or looks wrong or needs addresssing. 16:16:41 Ed: Thinking about updating core guide to reflect latest stuff rather than recreating new text. 16:16:49 ...just change what needs to be changed 16:16:58 Tom: Draft is in w3 space? 16:17:13 Alistair: Drafting reference as HTML document within SWD CVS space. 16:17:15 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/master.html -> reference master 16:17:43 ...this is file that's being edited live. Will create copy with datestamped URI 16:18:00 ...once the draft is ready. Treat this URI as volatile. 16:18:19 s/Antoint/Antoine/ 16:18:24 Tom: Can we update deliverables page with links? 16:18:39 Alistair: Not sure about that -- this is pre editors draft stage. 16:18:45 Ralph: What are your concerns? 16:18:59 Alistair: None specific, but general unease 16:19:11 Ralph: If the status is accurate, then it's fine. 16:19:20 Alistair: Ok, says it has no status 16:19:38 Ed: Got the feeling that Antoine would like to do the same with Primer 16:19:59 Tom: Suggest that we keep editing the wiki page called deliverables. Add link to the 16:20:12 Regrets+ Elisa 16:20:19 ...latest one. Then WG participants can pick up the latest versions. 16:20:20 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables SWD Deliverables Wiki 16:20:30 ISSUE 39 16:20:36 ACTION: Antoine to send a msg proposing a resolution for next week telecon on ISSUE-39 considering Alistair's 3 subtopics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action07] 16:20:38 --done 16:21:01 Tom: To decide on this call. 16:21:42 Ralph: Link in minutes refers to specific version (5). Is this right> 16:21:48 Tom: yes. 16:21:58 Tom: Any comments? 16:22:27 ...three sub issues. 16:22:40 ...A: propose postpone 16:23:13 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Dec/0083.html A revised proposal for ISSUE-39 ConceptualMappingLinks [CORRECTION] [Antoine 16-Dec] 16:24:54 Alistair: Bit behind. Would be happy accepting the resolution. 16:25:10 ...will only get to grips when writing Reference. 16:25:15 aliman++ 16:25:32 Tom: Happy to move forward if we feel this reflects our understanding of the problem. 16:25:55 ...accept this as a resolution to ISSUE-39 and come back if necessary. 16:26:26 Alistair: whether or not we take this as a resolution I will take the content as is and try and work 16:26:47 ...it into the Reference. If we formally resolve, would be happy to revisit. 16:27:01 Tom: Propose that we resolve not to formally accept this as a solution, but 16:27:22 ...resolve that Alistair will write this up in SKOS Reference and we will revisit this after that. 16:27:50 Alistair: Would it be helpful to us to accept the resolution. Issue as it stands is broad "we want conceptual mapping links". 16:28:11 ...Later issues will be more specific. May help to resolve the broader issue. 16:28:33 Tom: Like this. Pushed grouping into context and takes a stand on related/overlapping. 16:28:46 ...Stake in the ground. 16:29:04 ...Would be happy to accept a resolution closing this. But want more 16:29:13 ...support for this from the WG! 16:29:21 Ed: I like the sound of that. 16:29:33 ...that == closing the issue. 16:30:18 Ralph: No strong opinion either way. Unclear on sub issues. 16:30:49 ...Is the expectation that we open a new issue on grouping? 16:31:24 Tom: Good question. To what extent do issues #40 and #45 discuss the grouping constructs 16:31:49 Alistair: If we have a mechanism for "co-ordinating" concepts, that would satisfy some requirements. 16:32:17 ...There is some overlap between #40 and grouping constructs. Could use a co-ordination instead of AND. 16:32:39 ...Not sure about #45 . Not sure how to model it. Not entirely at the conceptual level. 16:33:00 ..It's related, but not sure how overlapping it is. May need to raise another issue. Bit vague.... 16:33:38 Ralph: Happy with closing #39 if it's internal and we'll re-raise grouping if appropriate. 16:34:09 Alistair: Original SKOS mapping vocab had AND/OR/NOT. Starting point for recent discussions. Came from 16:34:35 ...some practice. There is precedent for doing AND/OR like combinations when mapping. 16:34:56 Tom: In the old mapping vocab. Issue was is mapping sufficient. Could it be simplified. 16:35:06 ...do we have a requirement for this? 16:35:33 Marghe: Sent an email to the list to show how grouping relationship has been used. 16:36:02 ...realised they used them more that inexact match. But if we use the grouping, then the mapping is only one way 16:36:21 ...which limits the mapping to be one way. Bidirectional mapping much more useful. 16:36:38 ...Discarding them gives less precision, but provides much more useful mappings. 16:37:04 Tom: Propose that we resolve to accept this but take action to clarify whether the grouping constructs 16:37:27 ...issues are being addressed adequately. Would make sense to close this and open more specific. 16:37:48 Alistair: Difficult piece of work. What do you mean when you create mappings? 16:38:17 ...How do you process those mappings when doing IR across different indexes. Could translate query 16:38:46 ...or translate metadata. Depends on your operational theory of what the query means. 16:38:57 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Dec/0056.html "RE: SKOS ISSUE-39: clarification?" [Margherita, 11-Dec] 16:39:04 ...Directionality becomes important 16:39:04 ^the message I believe Margherita was citing 16:39:32 Tom: Should close #39 and do some triage 16:39:48 ...decide whether it makes sense for these constructs to be in scope. 16:40:12 ...Could distract us and make work more compicated. 16:40:27 ...Can someone take an action and decide whether it's in scope. 16:42:21 Tom: Alistair, Tom, Ed in favour 16:42:53 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Dec/0083.html Antoine's proposal 16:43:06 q+ to point to mail on grouping for mappin 16:44:17 RESOLVED: Accept Antoine's proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Dec/0083.html as a resolution to ISSUE-39. 16:45:40 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Dec/0025.html -> alistair's mail on grouping constructs 16:45:51 Alistair: Wrote mail about grouping constructs 16:46:27 ...started out in SKOS mapping with AND, OR and NOT. Only way to give an operational meaning is 16:46:51 ...to treat them as query expressions. Then not mapping between concepts but query expressions. 16:47:12 ...So first need a notion of a query. Query is out of scope for SKOS. So position I took was to 16:47:22 ...see AND, OR and NOT as being out of scope. 16:47:47 ...happy to take an action to state problem at higher level. Would also like Margherita to continue 16:47:51 ..her work in this area. 16:48:09 q+ to ask alistair about inferencing + and/or/not 16:48:12 Tom: Position makes sense. Question is whether the primer needs to address the issue. Legacy vocab 16:48:34 ...with these constructs. If they're not in the CR, do we need a comment or footnote in the Primer? Good to 16:48:45 ...have a position on what to do about the issue. 16:48:55 ...Drop without comment, or say something? 16:49:05 -aliman 16:49:19 Ralph: Alistair's mail addresses these issues well. 16:49:31 Tom: But do we need to address this in documents. 16:49:54 Ralph: Would be appropriate to go through all the differences between legacy and LC docs. 16:50:23 Tom: Good to capture the analysis that Alistair's done. 16:51:33 Ralph: What is the extent of things that will be different? 16:52:05 ...advantage of mail archive is that emails can be cited. 16:52:21 ...Recast question: how do we remember this email message? 16:53:27 ACTION: Ralph to add pointer to Alistair's mail on grouping constructs as a note to resolution of ISSUE-39. 16:53:41 ACTION: Alistair to propose an approach to clarify which aspects of the extension module should be in scope for the candidate recommendation package. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action06] 16:53:43 --continues 16:54:34 Tom: Running out of time. Propose we declare Antoine's action as done, and put ISSUE-36 on the call for Jan 8th. 16:54:39 ACTION: Antoine to send a mail to the list so as to have a discussion on ISSUE-36 and isDefinedBy for next week's telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action09] 16:54:41 --done 16:55:05 RESOLVED: ISSUE-36 on the call for Jan 8th 16:55:12 marghe has left #swd 16:55:13 ACTION: Alistair and Guus to prepare material for next week on Concept Schemes vs OWL Ontologies [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action04] 16:55:16 --continues 16:55:37 ACTION: Ralph to reconstruct proposal for semantics of isDefinedBy [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action02] 16:56:09 --dropped 16:56:24 -Margherita 16:56:31 ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of 16:56:32 rdfs:isDefinedBy fits the reasoning that was made in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.html 16:56:50 ACTION: Guus to write up the issue [of Label Resource] and add to the issue list. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action01] 16:56:53 --continues 16:57:01 Topic: RDFa 16:57:46 Ed: Haven't seen an updated version 16:57:57 Ralph: No, there's not. 16:58:12 ...can't remember the date promised 16:58:19 Ed: Lots of discussion about test cases 16:59:01 Tom: Aim at having reviews of syntax document posted to list by Jan 4th? 16:59:15 Ralph: But no editors draft to review. 16:59:39 -> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/13-rdfa-minutes 2007-12-13 RDFa telecon minutes (not yet cleaned) 16:59:54 Tom: Ideal schedule was to decide on LC on Jan 8th. If Diego and Ed are to review, post reviews by Jan 4th 17:00:00 ...then we take decision on Tuesday 17:00:17 -Daniel 17:00:35 ACTION: Diego to review RDFa syntax document by early January 17:00:47 ACTION: Ed to review RDFa syntax document by early January 17:00:56 ACTION: Ben and Michael to address comments by Tom [regarding maintenance of wiki document http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa] recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action05] 17:00:58 --continues 17:01:05 ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action03] 17:01:07 --continues 17:01:13 ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule in wiki http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action04] 17:01:15 --continues 17:01:24 Topic: Recipes 17:01:31 Tom: No change to approve publication 17:01:40 Ed: Good as no time to review. 17:01:49 ACTION: Ralph and Ed to review recipes document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action18] 17:01:52 --continues 17:02:11 ACTION: Dan to ask apache about conditional redirects [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action07] 17:02:14 --continues 17:02:20 ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] 17:02:22 --continues 17:02:57 ACTION: Ralph to come up with a URI for wiki page [for Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action04] 17:02:59 --done 17:03:08 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Dec/0057.html 17:04:30 Jon: Editors should include language in Ralph's proposal 17:04:40 ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action03] 17:04:42 --continues 17:04:50 Topic: Vocabulary Management 17:04:52 dlrubin has left #swd 17:04:55 ACTION: Vit and Elisa to include in the document all the target sections plus an allocation of sections to people and potentially a standard structure for sections [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action07] 17:04:59 --continues 17:05:16 adjourned 17:05:20 -edsu 17:05:22 -Justin 17:05:22 -Clay 17:05:24 -TomB 17:05:27 rssagent, please draft minutes 17:05:33 -berrueta 17:05:40 rrsagent, please draft minutes 17:05:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html seanb 17:05:49 seanb, do you want to have a chat briefly about the SKOS reference? 17:06:05 -JonP 17:06:51 zakim, list attendees 17:06:51 As of this point the attendees have been Quentin, Clay, TomB, +012355aaaa, aliman, edsu, Ralph, seanb, Justin, Margherita, Daniel, berrueta, JonP 17:07:14 rrsagent, please draft minutes 17:07:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html seanb 17:07:20 -seanb 17:08:00 -Ralph 17:08:06 -Quentin 17:08:06 SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended 17:08:08 Attendees were Quentin, Clay, TomB, +012355aaaa, aliman, edsu, Ralph, seanb, Justin, Margherita, Daniel, berrueta, JonP 17:15:17 ed has left #swd 19:18:20 Zakim has left #swd 20:25:50 rrsagent, bye 20:25:50 I see 22 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-actions.rdf : 20:25:50 ACTION: Quentin to review Editor's draft of SKOS Reference [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-swd-minutes.html#action02] [1] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T16-12-12 20:25:50 ACTION: Vit to review Editor's draft of SKOS Reference [recorded in ]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-swd-minutes.html#action03] [2] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T16-12-22 20:25:50 ACTION: Alistair and Guus write draft section in primer on relationship between SKOS concepts and OWL classes for OWL DL users [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-minutes.html#action05] [3] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T16-12-43 20:25:50 ACTION: Antoine to send a msg proposing a resolution for next week telecon on ISSUE-39 considering Alistair's 3 subtopics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action07] [4] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T16-20-36 20:25:50 ACTION: Ralph to add pointer to Alistair's mail on grouping constructs as a note to resolution of ISSUE-39. [5] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T16-53-27 20:25:50 ACTION: Alistair to propose an approach to clarify which aspects of the extension module should be in scope for the candidate recommendation package. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action06] [6] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T16-53-41 20:25:50 ACTION: Antoine to send a mail to the list so as to have a discussion on ISSUE-36 and isDefinedBy for next week's telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action09] [7] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T16-54-39 20:25:50 ACTION: Alistair and Guus to prepare material for next week on Concept Schemes vs OWL Ontologies [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action04] [8] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T16-55-13 20:25:50 ACTION: Ralph to reconstruct proposal for semantics of isDefinedBy [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action02] [9] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T16-55-37 20:25:50 ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of [10] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T16-56-31 20:25:50 ACTION: Guus to write up the issue [of Label Resource] and add to the issue list. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action01] [11] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T16-56-50 20:25:50 ACTION: Diego to review RDFa syntax document by early January [12] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T17-00-35 20:25:50 ACTION: Ed to review RDFa syntax document by early January [13] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T17-00-47 20:25:50 ACTION: Ben and Michael to address comments by Tom [regarding maintenance of wiki document http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa] recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action05] [14] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T17-00-56 20:25:50 ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action03] [15] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T17-01-05 20:25:50 ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule in wiki http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action04] [16] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T17-01-13 20:25:50 ACTION: Ralph and Ed to review recipes document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action18] [17] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T17-01-49 20:25:50 ACTION: Dan to ask apache about conditional redirects [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action07] [18] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T17-02-11 20:25:50 ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] [19] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T17-02-20 20:25:50 ACTION: Ralph to come up with a URI for wiki page [for Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action04] [20] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T17-02-57 20:25:50 ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action03] [21] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T17-04-40 20:25:50 ACTION: Vit and Elisa to include in the document all the target sections plus an allocation of sections to people and potentially a standard structure for sections [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action07] [22] 20:25:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-irc#T17-04-55