IRC log of rif on 2007-12-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:46:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:46:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:47:01 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
15:47:01 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
15:47:27 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 11 Dec 2007
15:47:34 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
15:48:56 [ChrisW]
15:50:00 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Mike Dean
15:51:36 [ChrisW]
Regrets: Axel
15:52:16 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 11 Dec RIF agenda
15:52:33 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
15:52:38 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
15:52:38 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
15:52:39 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
15:52:46 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
15:52:55 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F9
15:53:04 [ChrisW]
agenda+ BLD - Issue 40
15:53:10 [ChrisW]
agenda+ BLD - Issue 41
15:53:17 [ChrisW]
agenda+ BLD - Issue 43
15:53:33 [csma]
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15:53:38 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
15:53:49 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:53:49 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:55:12 [markproctor]
markproctor has joined #rif
15:55:24 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:55:46 [markproctor]
is there a belgium number I can call?
15:55:53 [markproctor]
I'm at a conference, so no landline
15:56:03 [markproctor]
and international calls to the US on a mobile are very expensive.
15:56:19 [csma]
Mark, there is a number in France
15:56:23 [markproctor]
I can get access to a belgium mobile, if there is a belgium number.
15:56:38 [markproctor]
no belgium one?
15:56:43 [markproctor]
if not France will have to do
15:56:44 [csma]
+33 4 89 06 34 99
15:56:56 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
15:57:06 [markproctor]
where do I find the details? this only lists the US number -
15:57:21 [ChrisW]
we should update that
15:57:28 [markproctor]
ok, thanks.
15:57:54 [markproctor]
I'll just go and find that belgium mobile and call in- hopefully calling france from belgium on a mobile isn't too much.
15:58:47 [patranja]
patranja has joined #rif
15:59:02 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
15:59:35 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:59:44 [ChrisW]
i updated the wiki page with the French number, Christian you should update the email agenda template
15:59:56 [Zakim]
15:59:58 [Zakim]
16:00:04 [Zakim]
16:00:05 [mdean]
Scribe: Mike Dean
16:00:06 [Zakim]
16:00:11 [mdean]
ScribeNick: mdean
16:00:19 [Harold]
zakim, NRCC is me
16:00:20 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
16:00:37 [csma]
Action: christian to update the agenda template with Zakim french phone number
16:00:38 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-394 - Update the agenda template with Zakim french phone number [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-12-18].
16:00:56 [Zakim]
16:01:15 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:01:15 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
16:01:50 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Dean, Harold, ChrisW
16:01:55 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:01:59 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
16:02:08 [IgorMozetic]
IgorMozetic has joined #rif
16:02:23 [Zakim]
16:02:27 [Zakim]
+ +49.892.1.aaaa
16:03:21 [Zakim]
16:03:48 [mdean]
postpone approval of last week's minutes since they've only been out for a day
16:04:04 [Zakim]
+ +324789aabb
16:04:13 [mdean]
s/postpone/ChrisW: postpone/
16:04:15 [markproctor]
16:04:21 [mdean]
Chair: Chris Welty
16:04:34 [markproctor]
damn forgotten how to register a new number
16:04:40 [mdean]
action 393 on axel is complete
16:04:53 [Zakim]
16:04:53 [mdean]
action 392 on sandro is complete
16:05:02 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, ??P43 is me
16:05:02 [Zakim]
+IgorMozetic; got it
16:05:08 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, mute me
16:05:08 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should now be muted
16:05:23 [mdean]
action 390 on Christian is complete or irrelevant
16:05:46 [mdean]
action 389 on jos is complete
16:06:18 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
16:06:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.685.aacc
16:06:50 [Zakim]
16:07:03 [csma]
zakim, aacc is me
16:07:03 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
16:07:12 [mdean]
action 386 on Chris is complete: jos and Mike Dean are RIF members of OWL Task Force - Peter and Uli Sattler are from OWL WG
16:07:49 [mdean]
... may want to pick 1 more from each side
16:08:07 [Zakim]
- +324789aabb
16:08:08 [mdean]
jos: 2 may be preferable
16:08:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:08:36 [Zakim]
+ +324789aadd
16:08:44 [mdean]
ChrisW: ensure all stakeholders are accounted for
16:08:44 [Zakim]
16:08:49 [markproctor]
Zakim, +324789aadd is me
16:08:49 [Zakim]
+markproctor; got it
16:08:50 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, please mute me
16:08:50 [Zakim]
LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
16:09:00 [mdean]
josb: interested in OWL Full as well as OWL DL
16:09:12 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, please unmute me
16:09:12 [Zakim]
LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
16:09:42 [mdean]
action 387 on leora is continued
16:09:51 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, please mute me
16:09:51 [Zakim]
LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
16:10:16 [mdean]
action 384 pending discussion
16:10:28 [mdean]
Christian updating actions
16:10:32 [markproctor]
I'm in two conference calls at the same time
16:10:49 [markproctor]
so do say my name twice, incase I can't follow that part of the call - to get my attention.
16:11:45 [ChrisW]
zakim,next item
16:11:45 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:11:58 [ChrisW]
16:13:10 [mdean]
ChrisW: draft of email response
16:13:12 [josb]
don"t understand
16:13:47 [mdean]
josb: partial response to question 14
16:14:27 [mdean]
... semantics is same as RDF - syntax is different - michael might justify why
16:14:38 [Zakim]
16:14:57 [mdean]
ChrisW: may make second pass
16:15:18 [mdean]
ChrisW: still need to respond to Peter's second message
16:15:52 [Harold]
Re 'Liaison', does someone know anything about the results of the OWL Manchester f2f?
16:15:52 [mdean]
Action: Harold to review response to Peter Patel-Schneider
16:15:52 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-395 - Review response to Peter Patel-Schneider [on Harold Boley - due 2007-12-18].
16:15:56 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:15:56 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "F2F9" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:16:13 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:16:17 [IgorMozetic]
16:16:24 [mdean]
ChrisW: not a lot of responses to survey
16:16:37 [mdean]
Christian: 18 answers currently
16:16:44 [mdean]
s/survey/survey earlier/
16:16:50 [Michael_Kifer]
Michael_Kifer has joined #rif
16:17:30 [mdean]
ChrisW: let's go with Paris
16:17:44 [mdean]
Christian: will provide dinner
16:17:58 [mdean]
Feb 21-22
16:18:24 [mdean]
dates decided last week
16:18:59 [mdean]
RESOLVED: F2F9 at iLog ilogin Paris Feb 21-22
16:19:22 [ChrisW]
Mike, that's not actually a resolution but a chair decision
16:19:35 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:19:35 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "BLD - Issue 40" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:19:36 [mdean]
s/iLog ilogin/ILOG in/
16:20:04 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:20:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Dean, Harold, ChrisW, josb, PaulaP (muted), Stella_Mitchell, IgorMozetic (muted), csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), markproctor, LeoraMorgenstern (muted),
16:20:07 [Zakim]
... Gary_Hallmark
16:20:16 [csma]
Michael, are you joining?
16:20:17 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:20:19 [mdean]
Christian: need to book hotels through ILOG - will send email to list
16:20:43 [Zakim]
16:20:52 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, mute me
16:20:52 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:21:34 [ChrisW]
16:22:42 [mdean]
zakim, next item
16:22:42 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "BLD - Issue 43" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:23:57 [mdean]
16:23:58 [josb]
16:24:39 [josb]
16:25:08 [mdean]
ChrisW: anyone who doesn't like option C modulo syntax changes in email?
16:25:19 [PaulaP]
+1 for Option C
16:25:33 [mdean]
Christian: logic functions would be different in what way?
16:26:05 [josb]
16:26:08 [mdean]
ChrisW: external calls have their own syntax
16:26:13 [Harold]
Re option c, The Presentation Syntax does not use commas but whitespace as separators:
16:26:16 [Harold]
&fn:dateTime( "2006-08-15"^^xs:date, "12:30:45-05:00"xs:time )
16:26:18 [Harold]
16:26:23 [Harold]
&fn:dateTime( "2006-08-15"^^xs:date "12:30:45-05:00"xs:time )
16:27:46 [josb]
16:28:07 [mdean]
at end of message
16:30:56 [Harold]
Also, I think we should not 'use up' the "&" special character for this purpose; "fn:" is clear enough.
16:30:57 [csma]
I would prefer <Apply>...</Apply> instead of <Exterm>
16:31:11 [mdean]
16:31:50 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Go with Axel's option C, that is using a special syntax to distinguish evaluated predicates from logical functions
16:32:09 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:32:09 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:33:42 [josb]
And (plus(z,1,1) z>y)
16:36:08 [Harold]
Michael, do you mean a new predicate greaterThanSum(y 1 1)?
16:36:27 [csma]
harold, this too complex
16:36:39 [mdean]
Michael: allow only total functions, not partial
16:36:56 [Harold]
Christian, I didn't suggest this :-)
16:37:18 [mdean]
Christian: otherwise define binding patterns
16:37:39 [Harold]
However, in F2F8 we tended strongly towards having only builtin predicates.
16:37:51 [Hassan]
16:38:12 [Harold]
This was because we took out Equal from the (future) Core.
16:38:28 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, mute me
16:38:28 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:38:47 [Harold]
Without Equal, we can no longer define user-defined functions,
16:38:47 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:38:47 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:39:09 [IgorMozetic]
16:39:11 [Harold]
so it makes little sense to have builtin functions.
16:39:13 [mdean]
ChrisW: resolution is about syntax
16:39:24 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: Go with Axel's option C, that is using a special syntax to distinguish evaluated predicates from logical functions
16:39:37 [ChrisW]
ack hassan
16:40:04 [Harold]
16:40:22 [Hassan]
16:40:23 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, mute me
16:40:24 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:40:33 [ChrisW]
ack igor
16:42:35 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:42:35 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:42:42 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, unmute me
16:42:42 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic was not muted, IgorMozetic
16:42:42 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, mute me
16:42:44 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:42:54 [IgorMozetic]
zakim, mute me
16:42:54 [Zakim]
IgorMozetic should now be muted
16:43:04 [Hassan]
Makes sense now ... Thanks Igor!
16:43:13 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: Go with Axel's option C, that is using a special syntax to distinguish evaluated functions/predicates from logical functions/predicates
16:43:29 [ChrisW]
ack har
16:44:04 [csma]
16:45:05 [mdean]
Harold: removing Equal may preclude user-defined functions
16:45:18 [mdean]
Christian: wants to allow user-defined functions
16:45:52 [csma]
ack csma
16:46:05 [GaryHallmark]
equality is in BLD, just not in Core
16:46:14 [mdean]
ChrisW: syntax discussion
16:46:34 [ChrisW]
ATOMIC ::= Uniterm | Equal | ExtTerm
16:46:34 [ChrisW]
TERM ::= Const | Var | Uniterm | ExtTerm
16:46:46 [ChrisW]
ExtTerm ::= '&' Const ' ( ' TERM* ' ) '
16:47:10 [josb]
16:47:56 [ChrisW]
ack jos
16:47:58 [mdean]
Christian: probably not ready to resolve this now
16:47:59 [josb]
ExtTerm ::= ' BuiltIn( ' Uniterm ' ) '
16:48:32 [GaryHallmark]
I don't agree. Most PR will be all builtins
16:48:33 [IgorMozetic]
but this might make confusion with higher-order predicates
16:48:57 [mdean]
ChrisW: add to Wiki page then discuss next week
16:49:21 [mdean]
Gary: prefer simpler presentation syntax
16:49:45 [mdean]
... prefers & or something similarly concise
16:49:52 [josb]
16:49:57 [markproctor]
for "builtins" we talking about the first order logic conditional elements? exists, not, forall, collect ?
16:50:08 [markproctor]
or are you talking about possible functions used inside test/eval nodes?
16:50:21 [markproctor]
typically what goes in a test/eval node is black box.
16:50:22 [csma]
no, we are talking about procedural attachments
16:50:41 [markproctor]
ok so test/evals
16:50:48 [csma]
16:50:52 [Michael_Kifer]
I agree with Gary
16:51:02 [PaulaP]
I can do that
16:51:03 [markproctor]
so many engines come with a selection of functions, but you can easily add more.
16:51:10 [josb]
how about ExtTerm ::= ' &[ ' Uniterm ' ] '
16:51:22 [PaulaP]
16:51:24 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:51:24 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:51:35 [csma]
same possible confusion with embedding, Jos
16:51:40 [mdean]
ACTION: PaulaP to update BLD syntax for new external calls
16:51:40 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - PaulaP
16:52:11 [mdean]
ACTION: Paula to update BLD syntax for new external calls
16:52:11 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Paula
16:52:36 [csma]
Mike, it is PaulaLa
16:52:44 [PaulaP]
16:52:55 [PaulaP]
16:52:55 [ChrisW]
16:52:59 [Harold]
Re builtin functions as well as builtin predicates, we should not introduce the **redundancy** of having all/many of the (arithmetic, ...) builtins TWICE, functionally as well as logically.
16:53:06 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
16:53:06 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
16:53:08 [Zakim]
6. BLD - Issue 43 [from ChrisW]
16:53:10 [Zakim]
7. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:53:31 [mdean]
ACTION: PaulaLa to update BLD list of builtins for new external calls
16:53:31 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - PaulaLa
16:53:51 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, mute me
16:53:51 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:54:03 [csma]
16:54:08 [josb]
16:54:15 [csma]
16:54:44 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:54:44 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:56:02 [mdean]
Michael: charter addresses frame syntax
16:56:11 [csma]
16:56:30 [mdean]
... to accommodate round-tripping of frame-based languages
16:56:45 [mdean]
Michael: Core as profile of BLD
16:57:06 [mdean]
... defining dialect is a lot of work, but profile (restrictions) are easy
16:57:13 [csma]
16:57:57 [csma]
16:58:14 [ChrisW]
ack c
16:58:29 [mdean]
Michael: if we don't include subclass and membership in BLD, then no reason to include frames
16:59:00 [mdean]
Christian: data model should be passed out-of-band
16:59:37 [mdean]
... this is the argument against
16:59:52 [josb]
Sorry, I have to go now
17:00:05 [josb]
I am not against getting rid of frames in core
17:00:11 [josb]
17:00:22 [Zakim]
17:00:25 [GaryHallmark]
argument for # and ##: you can exchange more rules without understanding details of data models
17:01:27 [mdean]
Christian: suggest BLD++ with membership and subclass
17:01:43 [mdean]
... will need mechanism to extend dialects
17:01:57 [mdean]
Michael: such a mechanism will be very complicated
17:02:02 [GaryHallmark]
argument against # and ##: you have to "bend" your data model to conform to RIF's notion of # and ##
17:04:21 [mdean]
Michael: BLD should be technically complete
17:04:49 [mdean]
Christian: will also have to discuss equality
17:07:15 [GaryHallmark]
hand in hand
17:07:36 [mdean]
ChrisW (not as chair): would like membership but not classification
17:07:43 [markproctor]
was there a URL to provide the definition difference between the two?
17:07:45 [Hassan]
I have no clue ???
17:08:36 [mdean]
straw poll indicates that the 2 should be treated together, although jos and Dave Reynolds aren't here
17:08:58 [markproctor]
so no wiki page explaining the difference?
17:09:08 [Hassan]
To me they are the same thing ... If you can do one, you can do the other. Membership = subtype + singleton-denoting-set
17:09:09 [GaryHallmark]
+1 with Michael, too much design by committee is not good
17:09:14 [mdean]
ChrisW: doesn't make sense to discuss this now
17:09:16 [csma]
they are defined in BLD
17:09:25 [ChrisW]
17:09:34 [markproctor]
someone want to do an action item to define classification/membership in the wiki?
17:09:36 [mdean]
issue 45 lists
17:09:38 [ChrisW]
agendum Issue 45 Lists
17:09:43 [Michael_Kifer]
zakim, mute me
17:09:43 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
17:09:51 [markproctor]
no isn't it issue 44?
17:09:54 [csma]
a # b is: instance a is a member of class b
17:09:58 [markproctor]
Issue 44 (named arguments Uniterm) [13]
17:10:06 [csma]
a## b is cals a is a subclass of class b
17:10:59 [mdean]
ChrisW: don't yet have a proposal for lists
17:11:38 [mdean]
Christian: lists in logic vs. list as type
17:11:52 [GaryHallmark]
if you have logic functions, you have logic lists
17:12:06 [Harold]
17:13:23 [mdean]
Harold: OWL 1.1 sequence construct
17:13:51 [mdean]
... mapped to RDF
17:13:51 [markproctor]
markproctor has joined #rif
17:14:34 [mdean]
ChrisW: just syntactic sugar for rdf:List
17:14:35 [GaryHallmark]
need list builtins as well for dialects not supporting logical functions
17:15:53 [mdean]
ChrisW: does OWL 1.1 allow nested sequences?
17:16:02 [mdean]
Harold: don't see any reason why it shouldn't
17:17:47 [mdean]
Gary: won't work so well for production rules
17:19:13 [mdean]
Gary: need builtins to access lists
17:19:18 [Harold]
Gary, lists are part of Horn logic, not Datalog.
17:19:39 [markproctor]
peeps we didn't discuss 44?
17:19:39 [csma]
Michael, I think the easy way out for Core, BLD, BLD++ (or Core, BLD--, BLD) is to have it both way: (1) we keep the BLD document; (2) we specify CORE, BLD-+, BLD+- as restrictions against the complete spec; (3) we call each of them a dialect and) we change the title of the document accordingly. That works because they are specified in the same document, so there is really no difference between a dialect and a profile.
17:19:39 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 6
17:19:39 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "BLD - Issue 43" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:19:44 [Harold]
So, we could have them only in BLD, not in the Core.
17:19:47 [mdean]
ChrisW: end early
17:19:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
17:19:59 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted)
17:20:00 [markproctor]
Issue 44 (named arguments Uniterm) [13]
17:20:07 [markproctor]
we didn't discuss that right?
17:20:07 [Harold]
But why not have builtins for opaque lists already in the Core.
17:20:24 [mdean]
Hassan will scribe next week
17:20:25 [Harold]
('opaque' in the sense of arrays)
17:20:25 [csma]
Mark, no, it will be included in the profile/dialect discussion
17:20:28 [Zakim]
17:20:29 [mdean]
Chris: adjourned
17:20:33 [Zakim]
17:20:34 [Zakim]
17:20:34 [PaulaP]
17:20:35 [Zakim]
17:20:36 [Zakim]
17:20:37 [markproctor]
ah ok
17:20:38 [Zakim]
17:20:38 [mdean]
17:20:39 [markproctor]
ok peeps
17:20:42 [Zakim]
17:20:43 [markproctor]
see ya later
17:20:47 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
17:20:47 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, Harold, ChrisW, josb, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Stella_Mitchell, +324789aabb, IgorMozetic, +1.650.685.aacc, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma,
17:20:50 [Zakim]
... LeoraMorgenstern, markproctor, Gary_Hallmark, Michael_Kifer
17:20:51 [Zakim]
17:20:52 [Zakim]
17:20:56 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:20:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
17:21:23 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:21:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, csma
17:21:33 [Zakim]
17:25:10 [Zakim]
17:25:13 [Zakim]
17:25:15 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:25:17 [Zakim]
Attendees were Mike_Dean, Harold, ChrisW, josb, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Stella_Mitchell, +324789aabb, IgorMozetic, +1.650.685.aacc, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma, LeoraMorgenstern,
17:25:20 [Zakim]
... markproctor, Gary_Hallmark, Michael_Kifer