17:51:18 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:51:18 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-irc 17:51:28 rrsagent, set logs public 17:51:55 title: UAWG telecon 17:52:12 chair: Jim Allan 17:53:34 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007OctDec/0057.html 17:53:48 scribeNick: oedipus 17:54:26 Regrets: Peter Parente, Jan Richards, Kelly Ford (last half) 17:58:26 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:58:28 +Gregory_Rosmaita 17:58:33 KFord has joined #ua 17:58:42 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita 18:00:06 +[Microsoft] 18:00:08 -[Microsoft] 18:00:09 +[Microsoft] 18:01:21 +AllanJ 18:01:42 zakim, [Microsoft] is KFord 18:01:42 +KFord; got it 18:04:40 GR: fills in group on current PF - ARIA and namespace issues 18:05:24 +Cathy_Laws 18:05:46 cklaws has joined #ua 18:07:23 ACTION: Kelly - write description of alternative viewport issues that have been repeatedly raised 18:08:39 GJR: CDF actions update -- been in touch with DougS, but hasn't had time to talk at any length about CDF implications for the DOM; have also been liaising with Kenny Johar (of Vision Australia and DAISY) who is in the process of joining CDF as DAISY representative on coordination of efforts 18:11:00 GJR: DAISY profile incorporated in CDF, would negate need for a DAISY plug-in 18:12:31 GJR: Discussing multiple DOMs with CDF, what needs to be there, communication between them, sharing information with a11y APIs 18:14:13 GJR: sharing collaboration between Open Accessibility, Web API, WAIPF, Ubiquitous Web 18:16:57 JA: related to email i sent that no one has received -- native rendering which has cross-over with CDF and SVG and MathML; grew out of HTML5 VIDEO element; if have HTML document with embedded SVG via the VIDEO element all controls have to be available to accessibilityAPI 18:17:33 JA: video in SVG -- SVG player runs SVG content natively, so all controls and content should be communicated to a11y API 18:17:42 CL: are they first in the DOM? 18:17:55 JA: HTML5 proposal states supposed to be in DOM by browser 18:18:03 CL: browser knows about content? 18:18:16 JA: HTML5 native rendering of VIDEO (Opera has example) 18:19:05 JA: with SVG, have a different DOM or is it that if UA is rendering SVG natively, does UA DOM include all SVG information or are there multiples 18:19:13 CL: is SVG part of HTML DOM? 18:20:23 GJR: if SVG is served as application, then it will use a diffent DOM than the HTML5 UA, but there is talk of SVG in text/html which would allow not only for SVG embedding, but rendering natively by the HTML5 compliant UA through a single DOM 18:22:05 GJR: CANVAS element (for immediate mode graphics) -- GJR objected because (1) there is currently no way to add semantic info to CANVAS and (2) i think it out of charter for HTML WG and should be handled by Graphics Activity; there a lot of support by developers because 3 implementation/partial implementations 18:23:12 GJR: DanC (co=-chair of HTML WG) asked PF for comment and advice on CANVAS that's something UAWG might want to investigate; plan is to discuss CANVAS element on wai-xtech, i believe 18:24:00 CL: AaronL says: the SVG content in same DOM in FF -- don't expose it through accessibility API because don't know semantics for SVG unless the author has added ARIA markup 18:24:11 GJR: widgetization of SVG 18:24:22 JA: SVG elements in DOM with tree, but doesn't know semantics? 18:25:17 CL: semantics = label or heading -- doesn't interpret SVG elements in DOM and no mapping to a11y API as in HTML; FF looking for ARIA roles, states and events; if declare something about SVG in ARIA should be avilable, but theoretical 18:25:36 JA: could walk through SVG diagram - this is the spoke, this is the hub, this is the wheel 18:25:43 CL: might have to extend ARIA with custom roles 18:26:33 KF: with IE if have plugin have to add custom MSAA support for SVG with extension; would have to do what flash does today in IE to make accessible 18:27:09 JA: if have SVG plugin, it is up to SVG plugin to report semantics; if rendered natively, does burden get shifted to author to add ARIA? 18:27:25 JA: info may be in DOM, but accessibility API doesn't know where it is 18:27:32 CL: is same in IE -- show up in IE DOM? 18:27:37 KF: don't believe so 18:27:47 KF: don't support directly 18:28:12 GJR: this is where expert handlers would provide semantic interpretation and hand either to a11y API or directly to AT 18:28:51 JA: have HTML elements, go in DOM, but something in UA knows semantics and has rules as to rendering, navigation, etc. 18:29:17 CL: yes, UA knows a heading or table; has algorithms that map element types to a11y APIs -- never done in FF for SVG 18:29:52 CL: in HTML have a lot of a11y markup (alt, etc.) in adddition to element type; what needs to be exposed to AT? 18:30:01 KF: not enough info to reliably know what to expose 18:30:45 CL: right -- how does it get exposed or navigated -- SVG falls into complex visualization issue (eclipse and topology diagrams with java applets) 18:30:49 KF: need to leave 18:31:01 -KFord 18:32:51 GJR: there is work being done on 'expert handlers' - xml implementation, acts as intermediary between specialized markup and accessibility api 18:32:56 GJR: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers 18:33:21 CL: how does expert handler know what to expose to the a11y api 18:34:07 CL: how does expert handler know what to expose -- has to understand markup in context it is used 18:34:18 GJR: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers/References/MLs 18:35:15 GJR: platform agnostic, which is why plan on using XML as basis 18:36:01 GJR: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers/References/SMLs - http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers/References/GMLs 18:37:24 GJR: agree with JA's observation that it is a11y middleware 18:38:10 GJR: generic handler defined XML Events 2 http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-events 18:40:44 CL: SVG is not on either list, is it general or specialized 18:41:09 GJR: still being discussed. 18:41:29 ... thinks it would be general 18:42:23 JA: dependency on CDF -- what do we need to say -- GL6 talks about infosets and DOM 18:43:44 GJR: the ultimate fate of the "purpose" element for generic handlers -- XHTML2 WG which owns XML Events 2 has declared it is out of their purview 18:44:19 JA: actionable items in handlers? not specific actionable handler 18:44:38 GJR: build on generic handler architecture outlined in section4 of XML Events 18:45:05 JA: 'handler' - actionable, or informational, that is revealing content to the a11y api 18:46:53 -Gregory_Rosmaita 18:48:11 +Gregory_Rosmaita 18:53:07 JA: could put burden on UA -- whatever exposes has to also expose to accessibility API -- burden on author to add ARIA 18:53:49 GJR: burden going to be on authors shoulders to add ARIA support 18:54:01 GJR: ARIA markup acts as middle ware to expose info 18:55:03 GJR: our requirement is that that a generic handler has to be able to communicate purpose of generic handler; right now only way is ARIA 18:55:15 CL: agree and so does AaronL 18:56:18 GJR: generic handlers needs to convey purpose, and context - identity, integrity, intent, state, 18:56:42 JA: up to author? 18:56:48 CL: yes -- right now it is 18:56:57 JA: future thinking -- put back on UA? 18:57:35 CL: UA in that loop -- if author adds ARIA, UA needs to expose to a11y API; other way would be to develop specific markup to apply to multiple markup languages 18:57:58 JA: if use a plug-in or separate rendering engine, falls on that component (RealPlayer, etc.) 18:58:04 CL: not considered markup languages 18:58:13 JA: except when rendering SMIL 18:58:34 CL: a lot of proprietary implementations -- for XML based, ARIA an approach to take 18:59:01 JA: any ideas as to where this needs to go -- anyone want to take an action to address this? 18:59:22 CL: from UA p.o.v. need to include ARIA as something that needs to be exposed no matter what 19:00:17 JA: GL6 would be where to state that -- implement interoperable programming interfaces -- specific checkpoint about ARIA? 6.2 says DOM access to HTML, XHTML needed -- should ARIA be a technique or be specific 19:01:01 CL: 6.1 and 6.2 need to be re-reviewed as does content definition -- think need to expand -- even though say XML, what is there is very HTML based; can't change XML infoset document, but can update our concept of XML content 19:01:10 JA: glossary items only now 19:01:26 CL: have action item -- one potential problem is we don't own infoset 19:02:15 CL: have to cover CSS, SVG, any XML-dialect/ML (generic or specialized) -- don't know how far can go until more work done on handlers and expert handlers 19:03:58 CL: will not be availble for rest of year after next meeting 19:05:54 JA: meet on 13 December 2007 -- next meeting after that provisionally on 10 January 2008 -- scares me to have month off; 19:06:01 CL: face2face in february? 19:06:03 JA: no 19:06:26 GJR: perhaps can have IRC office hours when meeting would have taken place 19:06:57 -Cathy_Laws 19:07:04 -Gregory_Rosmaita 19:07:06 -AllanJ 19:07:07 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:07:08 Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, AllanJ, KFord, Cathy_Laws 19:11:52 RESOLVED: next UA WG meeting 13 December 2007 then no calls until 10 January 2008 -- in the interim, IRC "office hours" will be held during the regularly scheduled meeting time to maintain momentum and continue collaborative efforts and communication between UAWG members 19:12:01 zakim, please part 19:12:01 Zakim has left #ua 19:12:09 rssagent, create minutes 19:12:28 rrsagent, create minutes 19:12:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html oedipus 19:12:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:12:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html oedipus 19:12:43 rrsagent, format minutes 19:12:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html oedipus 19:12:57 rrsagent, publish minutes 19:12:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html oedipus 19:14:03 meeting: User Agent WG Teleconfernce 19:14:08 rrsagent, publish minutes 19:14:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html oedipus 19:42:42 AllanJ has left #ua