15:55:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:55:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-irc
15:55:22 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
15:55:22 <msporny> msporny has joined #rdfa
15:55:25 <Ralph> zakim, this will be rdfa
15:55:25 <Zakim> ok, Ralph; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
15:58:29 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:58:31 <Zakim> +??P7
15:58:44 <msporny> zakim, I am p7
15:58:46 <Zakim> sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named 'p7'
15:58:53 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P7
15:58:53 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:59:07 <msporny> Hi Ralph :)
16:00:03 <Simone> Simone has joined #rdfa
16:00:25 <msporny> hi Simone :)
16:00:44 <Simone> hi :)
16:00:46 <Zakim> +McCarron
16:00:48 <Zakim> -McCarron
16:00:51 <Zakim> +McCarron
16:01:04 <Simone> Zakim, passcode?
16:01:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Simone
16:01:23 <Simone> Zakim, Thanks
16:01:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'Thanks', Simone
16:02:15 <Zakim> +Ralph
16:02:32 <Ralph> Meeting: RDFa Task Force
16:02:53 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
16:03:16 <Zakim> +??P24
16:03:22 <Simone> Zakim, ??P24
16:03:22 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P24', Simone
16:03:24 <Simone> Zakim, ??P24 is me
16:03:24 <Zakim> +Simone; got it
16:03:31 <Zakim> +benadida
16:04:16 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes previous 2007-11-15
16:04:23 <Ralph> zakim, mute simone
16:04:23 <Zakim> Simone should now be muted
16:04:44 <Ralph> Regrets: Mark
16:05:06 <Ralph> Regrets+ Michael
16:05:22 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Dec/0018.html
16:05:37 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the call?
16:05:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see msporny, McCarron, Ralph, Simone (muted), benadida
16:08:00 <Ralph> Topic: Update on CURIE spec
16:08:11 <Ralph> Shane: the XHTML2 WG is producing a CURIE spec independently
16:08:55 <Ralph> ... there was an objection to the XHTML2 WG publishing FPWD of another spec because it inlined CURIE normatively
16:09:13 <Ralph> ... so we decided to update the CURIE WD
16:09:25 <Ralph> ... this doesn't impact RDFa-syntax for the moment
16:09:41 <Ralph> ... just notice that XHTML2 WG is pushing forward CURIE
16:10:11 <Ralph> ... so long as the content [between RDFa-syntax and CURIE WD] is identical, I don't think we have a problem
16:10:27 <Ralph> ... it would be an editorial change to refer normatively to a separate CURIE WD
16:10:52 <Ralph> ... this TF has said it does not want to be dependent on a separate CURIE spec
16:11:18 <Ralph> ... the TAG has formal comments on CURIE
16:12:14 <Ralph> ... I've added to the intro in the current CURIE editor's draft
16:13:01 <Ralph> Ben: one of the sticking points seemed to be what to do if an attribute could contain either URI or CURIE
16:13:21 <Ralph> Shane: yes, and we don't want to break legacy markup
16:13:34 <Ralph> ... another concern was about the use of namespaces as prefix mechanisms
16:13:39 <Ralph> ... I think we have a good story there
16:14:31 <Ralph> Topic: Follow-your-Nose
16:14:46 <Ralph> Shane: in an XHTML2 WG call yesterday the question came up ...
16:15:23 <Ralph> ... one user discovered it was hard to find the vocabularies [from a document]
16:15:32 <Ralph> Manu: that's a document usability concern
16:15:51 <Ralph> Ben: but it's also philosophical; we don't want to say "these are all the vocabularies you can use"
16:16:13 <Ralph> Shane: but the namespace URIs we use in the example don't give readable HTML documents
16:16:32 <Ralph> ... maybe FOAF redirects, but vCard and geotagging don't
16:17:09 <Ralph> ... Ralph pointed me at the Recipes document http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-vocab-pub/
16:17:20 <Ralph> ... this made the complainer happy
16:17:31 <Ralph> ... so getting the examples in the Primer to be good examples [would help]
16:17:42 <Ralph> Manu: we need a process for cleaning up the examples
16:18:11 <Ralph> ... CreativeCommons namespace is a really good example of how to do this right
16:18:28 <Ralph> ... it's one of the few you can actually use in a Web browser to get a human-readable page back
16:18:58 <Ralph> ... common complaint from microformats community is that there aren't human-readable pages at the [RDFa] vocab URIs
16:19:48 <Ralph> Ben: both FOAF and Dublin Core do redirect to English specifications
16:20:26 <Ralph> ... hmm. right now Dublin Core doesn't redirect
16:20:46 <Zakim> -McCarron
16:20:47 <Zakim> +ShaneM
16:23:36 <Ralph> ACTION: Ralph followup with Dublin Core on what's going on with their namespace URI
16:28:25 <Ralph> Shane: second part of follow-your-nose is whether @profile is optional or not
16:28:53 <Ralph> ... there should be an announcement mechanism
16:29:08 <Ralph> ... DOCTYPE doesn't work because none of the XML parsers give you back the doctype
16:29:28 <Ralph> Ben: one of the requirements for RDFa was that people write RDFa in widgets where they don't control the head of the document
16:29:53 <Ralph> ... I'm happy to have @profile but reluctant to say that absence of @profile says you shouldn't try to parse RDFa
16:31:17 <Ralph> Ralph: architectural issue is whether a document instance is self-documenting
16:31:36 <Ralph> ... DOCTYPE or @profile are both mechanism to make self-documenting
16:31:44 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
16:32:32 <ShaneM> some attributes trigger triple generation 
16:33:05 <Ralph> Ben: we should leave a grey area where a document that does not have either DOCTYPE or @profile can still be parsed for triples
16:34:09 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to respond to comment on follow-your-nose
16:34:19 <Ralph> Ralph: yes, so long as it's the case that there is no use of the RDFa attributes that would NOT generate triples; i.e. no accidental use
16:34:28 <Ralph> ... and I think this is currently the case
16:34:32 <Ralph> Topic: Action Review
16:34:47 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes#ActionSummary Action summary
16:35:12 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Ben check that browsers do preserve whitespace in attribute values [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
16:35:28 <Ralph> Shane: I thought this had to do with _content_, not attribute values
16:35:47 <Ralph> ... the XML spec is very clear on the handling of attribute values, though browsers may currently implement incorrectly
16:35:59 <Ralph> Ben: we resolved the question w.r.t. content
16:36:25 <Ralph> ... and we noted the possibility that attributes might be a way to force whitespace preservation if the author needed it
16:37:00 <Ralph> -> ACTION: Ben check that browsers do preserve whitespace in attribute values [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] RE: action on white-space preservation in attributes [Michael]
16:37:17 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Dec/0019.html action on white-space preservation in attributes [Ben]
16:37:24 <Ralph> Ben: I need to re-test using the XML declaration
16:37:31 <Ralph> action CONTINUES
16:38:27 <Ralph> Ben: if XML mode does canonicalization then our hand is forced
16:38:35 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
16:38:37 <Ralph> -- continues
16:38:44 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Michael check that HTML spec says to preserve whitespace in attribute values [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
16:39:32 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Dec/0021.html Michael's report
16:39:44 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
16:39:46 <Ralph> -- continues
16:39:54 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
16:39:56 <Ralph> -- continues
16:40:03 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
16:40:06 <Ralph> -- continues
16:40:40 <Ralph> [Shane reminds us of -> http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa/ RDFa namespace/profile URI
16:40:44 <Ralph> Topic: @instanceof
16:41:16 <Ralph> Ben: I think Mark's proposal is better, so I'm withdrawing mine
16:41:39 <Ralph> Manu: trel/trev was in case we couldn't agree
16:42:10 <Ralph> ... Mark's proposal is better than trel/trev
16:42:55 <Ralph> Ben: Mark makes strong arguments about why this should work
16:43:03 <Ralph> ... it's more consistent w.r.t. chaining
16:43:18 <Ralph> ... with hanging @rel it covers the otheruse cases
16:45:48 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0053.html Understanding 'chaining' [Mark 2007-11-15]
16:46:42 <Ralph> Ben: can't vote today, given regrets, but let's start revising test cases and testing parsers
16:46:47 <Ralph> ... let's try to resolve this next week
16:46:47 <ShaneM> Question: are people comfortable adding a conformance requirement that documents MUST have the XML PI <? xml ... > 
16:47:05 <Ralph> Manu: I posted two test cases that apply to the new proposal
16:47:18 <Ralph> ... these address hanging @rel
16:48:17 <Ralph> Ben: I advocate more tests cases where each is simple rather than fewer complicated tests
16:48:36 <Ralph> ... more tests is Good
16:49:07 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Dec/0022.html Two new test cases needed? [Manu]
16:49:09 <Simone> When we have test cases I can also mail all implementors to support chaining, so also test cases can be used for exaplmes for people who'll write RDFa :)
16:49:50 <benadida> ACTION: Manu to put together set of test cases for hanging @rel
16:50:12 <Ralph> zakim, mute simone
16:50:12 <Zakim> Simone should now be muted
16:50:23 <Ralph> Manu: the on-hold tests deal with @instanceof
16:50:59 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Dec/0023.html On hold test cases [Manu]
16:51:08 <benadida> ACTION: Manu to add test cases for @instanceof combined with hanging @rel
16:54:28 <Ralph> Ben: we have agreement from SWD WG reviewers to start review of new Syntax doc before holidays
16:54:52 <Ralph> Shawn: Last Call before end of year?
16:55:00 <Ralph> Ben: unlikely, given holidays and review time
16:55:23 <Ralph> ... but I'd like to start Last Call immediately in the new year
16:56:07 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Nov/0056.html Best Practices Issue: RDF Format Discovery
16:57:19 <Ralph> Shawn: that's Ben's action
16:57:32 <Ralph> s/that's/responding to Sean Palmer is/
17:03:47 <Ralph> Ben: Ivan, Elias, and I submitted an RDFa tutorial proposal for WWW2008 and it was accepted
17:05:03 <Ralph> ... Mark wasn't sure if he'd be going to Beijing, so he said he'd help with content but wouldn't be part of the proposal
17:05:14 <Ralph> [adjourned]
17:05:26 <Ralph> Ben: next meeting we'll talk about test cases and vote on @instanceof
17:05:51 <Zakim> -ShaneM
17:05:52 <Zakim> -msporny
17:05:53 <Zakim> -benadida
17:05:54 <Zakim> -Ralph
17:06:00 <msporny> :)
17:06:03 <Zakim> -Simone
17:06:04 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:06:05 <Zakim> Attendees were msporny, McCarron, Ralph, Simone, benadida, ShaneM
17:06:23 <Ralph> [this is indeed the season (in the northern hemisphere) for chains :)
17:06:33 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
17:06:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
17:07:00 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
17:07:20 <Ralph> zakim, bye
17:07:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
17:07:28 <Ralph> Chair: Ben
17:07:38 <Ralph> regrets+ Steven
17:15:33 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #rdfa
17:16:23 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
17:16:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
17:16:43 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:16:43 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:16:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph followup with Dublin Core on what's going on with their namespace URI [1]
17:16:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-irc#T16-23-36
17:16:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to respond to comment on follow-your-nose [2]
17:16:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-irc#T16-34-09
17:16:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [3]
17:16:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-irc#T16-38-35
17:16:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [4]
17:16:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-irc#T16-39-44
17:16:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [5]
17:16:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-irc#T16-39-54
17:16:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [6]
17:16:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-irc#T16-40-03
17:16:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to put together set of test cases for hanging @rel [7]
17:16:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-irc#T16-49-50
17:16:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to add test cases for @instanceof combined with hanging @rel [8]
17:16:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-rdfa-irc#T16-51-08