IRC log of bpwg on 2007-12-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
14:51:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-bpwg-irc
14:51:48 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:51:48 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #bpwg
14:51:50 [trackbot-ng]
Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:51:50 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:52 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:51:54 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 06 December 2007
14:54:16 [DKA]
[but seriously folks
14:55:20 [dom]
Chair: DKA
14:55:27 [DKA]
:)
14:55:44 [dom]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2007Dec/0009.html
14:55:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-bpwg-minutes.html dom
14:56:55 [dom]
Regrets: EdM, Nacho, Abel, Miguel, Alan
14:57:43 [scrooge]
Regrets+ Phil
14:57:55 [scrooge]
Regrets+ Adam
14:58:52 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started
14:59:00 [Zakim]
+DKA
14:59:11 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
14:59:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA
14:59:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, DKA, Jo, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:00:10 [Zakim]
+jo
15:00:14 [Zakim]
-DKA
15:00:16 [Zakim]
+DKA
15:00:40 [Zakim]
+Sophia-meeting
15:01:00 [rob]
rob has joined #bpwg
15:02:47 [dom]
zakim, who's on the call?
15:02:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, jo, Sophia-meeting (muted)
15:02:48 [Zakim]
Sophia-meeting has Dom, Francois
15:03:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.265.aaaa
15:03:50 [dom]
zakim, aaaa is AlanTai
15:03:50 [Zakim]
+AlanTai; got it
15:04:41 [Zakim]
+Shahriar
15:04:58 [rob]
rob has joined #bpwg
15:05:11 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
15:05:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, jo, Sophia-meeting, AlanTai, Shahriar
15:05:12 [Zakim]
Sophia-meeting has Dom, Francois
15:05:14 [Zakim]
On IRC I see rob, Zakim, RRSAgent, DKA, Jo, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:05:23 [dom]
ScribeNick: dom
15:05:26 [drooks]
drooks has joined #bpwg
15:05:57 [dom]
DKA: Welcome Alan from AOL!
15:06:15 [dom]
Jo: Welcome Francois
15:06:16 [dom]
ack Sophia
15:06:51 [dom]
Francois: Hi everybody
15:07:00 [dom]
... met some of you in Boston (but had no status back then)
15:07:17 [dom]
... my background is in mobile-based search, initially in a French start-up, later bought up by Microsoft
15:07:22 [Zakim]
+rob
15:07:30 [dom]
... I'll be working with Dom on getting up to speed
15:07:31 [srowen]
srowen has joined #bpwg
15:07:47 [dom]
DKA: welcome francois !
15:07:57 [dom]
... Glad to hear Dom will help as well
15:08:19 [Zakim]
+Sean_Owen
15:08:41 [dom]
q+ to suggest hearing from AlanT
15:08:49 [dom]
ack Sophia
15:09:30 [dom]
AlanT: I work at AOL
15:09:47 [Zakim]
+??P29
15:09:47 [dom]
... I joined the group because the previous rep had left
15:09:54 [drooks]
zakim, ??P29 is drooks
15:09:54 [Zakim]
+drooks; got it
15:10:02 [dom]
... I also work on mobile search in AOL
15:10:18 [dom]
... I met DKA at the mobile ajax workshop back in September
15:10:24 [dom]
... I'm still trying to get up to speed
15:10:34 [dom]
... I'm hoping to be able to participate in some of the important issues here
15:11:03 [dom]
DKA: the work we're trying to inititate is a follow-up on the discussions we had at the mobile ajax workshop
15:11:15 [dom]
... one of the documents will be the BP 2nd phase doc, which will focus on mobile web applications
15:11:35 [dom]
... in the meantime, you'll hear a lot about our other task forces on content transformation, mobileOK checker, etc
15:11:58 [dom]
... (just as a rough idea for this meeting, which may not focus so much on the mobile web applications doc)
15:12:06 [Alan_Tai]
Alan_Tai has joined #bpwg
15:12:18 [Alan_Tai]
hi guys
15:12:19 [dom]
Topic: Report from task forces
15:12:58 [dom]
DKA: first, the CT task forces
15:12:58 [dom]
Topic: Content Transformation Task Froce
15:12:58 [dom]
s/Froce/Force/
15:13:03 [dom]
Jo: nobody has volunteered to become the lead for this task force
15:13:08 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
15:13:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA, jo, Sophia-meeting (muted), AlanTai, Shahriar, rob, Sean_Owen, drooks
15:13:10 [Zakim]
Sophia-meeting has Dom, Francois
15:13:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Alan_Tai, srowen, drooks, rob, Zakim, RRSAgent, DKA, Jo, matt, francois, trackbot-ng, dom
15:13:11 [dom]
... I won't be able to act as task force lead for much longer
15:13:46 [dom]
... that said, we have a draft document with lots of editorial comments, but has its basic shape formed
15:14:10 [dom]
... got contributions from ATT (Bryan) that we need to wove into the text
15:14:41 [dom]
... the doc needs a bit more review by the task force... we won't have a public FPWD before christmas
15:14:53 [dom]
... we're looking into asking for possible extensions to HTTP
15:15:01 [dom]
... have asked Mark Nottingham for feedback on this
15:15:14 [dom]
... Dom has also suggested we contact Yves Lafon from W3C on this point
15:15:17 [dom]
... which I haven't done yet
15:15:25 [dom]
... We need to be careful on what the task force does in this regard
15:15:32 [dom]
... since we can't recommend more than what HTTP allows
15:15:42 [dom]
DKA: you're saying we won't have a public document soon
15:15:51 [dom]
... but the editors drafts are public, right?
15:16:15 [dom]
... so, what do you think is stopping us from making this an official public draft, on which we can call comments?
15:16:29 [dom]
Jo: we need to fill up some missing sections, and get consensus in the TF
15:16:48 [dom]
... various members of the TF are extremely busy at this time
15:17:12 [dom]
DKA: PLEASE, could you post the DAMN URI of the doc?
15:17:26 [Jo]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/071124 draft 1b
15:17:58 [dom]
DKA: I wonder what we can do to have the doc published before the end of the year?
15:18:14 [dom]
Jo: given the scheduled absences for the upcoming two weeks, it's simply not an option
15:18:28 [dom]
q+ to suggest a specific action for getting a tf lead
15:18:37 [dom]
ack sophia
15:19:25 [dom]
ACTION: Dan to recruit a TF lead for CT
15:19:25 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-608 - Recruit a TF lead for CT [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2007-12-13].
15:20:24 [dom]
DKA: is the call for the TF pre-emptively canceled next week?
15:20:27 [dom]
Jo: No
15:20:33 [dom]
DKA: I suggest it should
15:20:55 [dom]
... and see what can be done on the second week
15:21:11 [dom]
... see if we can get it ready before the moratorium
15:21:19 [dom]
... (even if the editors draft is already public)
15:21:24 [DKA]
q?
15:21:28 [DKA]
ack dom
15:21:28 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to suggest hearing from AlanT and to suggest a specific action for getting a tf lead
15:21:43 [dom]
Topic: mobileOK checker TF
15:21:59 [dom]
Sean: not a lot specific to report
15:22:08 [dom]
... we've received bug reports
15:22:20 [dom]
... we need to decided when to draw the line for the beta release
15:22:28 [dom]
... we don't have specific criteria
15:22:52 [dom]
... hoping to get even more comments on a beta release, and then release a final version sometimes next year
15:23:17 [dom]
DKA: I have a question on the checker, related to the Korean mobileOK Basic profile
15:23:36 [dom]
... how much the code is parametrizable for things like page weight?
15:23:47 [dom]
... so that they could re-use the code for the Korean profile?
15:24:08 [dom]
Sean: most of this kind of changes seem pretty trivial to make in the current code
15:24:23 [dom]
... but we could make it even easier (e.g. through configuration)
15:24:37 [dom]
DKA: obviously, it's not idea they get their own mobileOK version
15:24:47 [dom]
... but it would be even less ideal that they would get their own library
15:24:55 [dom]
... it would be much better if they can use the same code
15:25:10 [dom]
Sean: once their profile is finalized, we can see what needs to be adapted
15:25:29 [dom]
DKA: when do you think the beta can be released? before the end of the year?
15:25:39 [dom]
Sean: I guess we can pick the time as we need
15:25:46 [dom]
... I don't think we're in much hurry
15:25:55 [dom]
q+ to say this relates to the test suite question for mobileOK Basic
15:26:01 [DKA]
q?
15:26:05 [dom]
... I think we can play by the ear
15:26:14 [dom]
... and declare it as beta when we feel like it
15:26:17 [DKA]
ack dom
15:26:18 [dom]
ack sophia
15:26:18 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to say this relates to the test suite question for mobileOK Basic
15:27:25 [dom]
dom: this relates to the test suite we needs for mobileOK CR
15:29:08 [dom]
ACTION: Dom to get the work on the mobileOK test suite started
15:29:08 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-609 - Get the work on the mobileOK test suite started [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2007-12-13].
15:30:12 [SeanP]
SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:30:17 [dom]
Topic: mobileOK Pro TF
15:30:34 [dom]
DKA: we have an agreed date and location for the work session on mobileOK Pro tests
15:30:52 [dom]
... early February in London
15:31:04 [dom]
... room is reserved at Vodafone's offices
15:31:11 [Zakim]
+SeanP
15:31:26 [Jo]
q+ to mumble about charter, formal leader of the TF timescales etc.
15:31:30 [DKA]
q?
15:31:33 [DKA]
ack jo
15:31:33 [Zakim]
Jo, you wanted to mumble about charter, formal leader of the TF timescales etc.
15:32:05 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/MobileOK-Pro/results Results of mobileOK Pro survey
15:32:17 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/MobileOK-Pro/results#xq3 List of persons interested in editing mobileOK Pro
15:32:24 [Jo]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/ Task Force
15:32:46 [dom]
Jo: if we want mobileOK Pro to be handled by a TF, we need to set it up as a TF according to our rules (e.g. having a leader, a web space)
15:32:54 [Jo]
s/Task Force/Task Force Rules/
15:33:03 [dom]
DKA: we had a number of people stepping up to help building the spec
15:33:16 [dom]
... willing to put time on this work item
15:33:35 [dom]
... but we weren't able to schedule this before the end of year, and so this has been pushed back to February
15:33:36 [Jo]
q+ to say that this is going to take longer and needs a longer term commitment
15:33:48 [dom]
... my personal idea is that we'll deal with defining the paramters of the TF during that session
15:33:58 [dom]
s/mter/meter/
15:34:19 [dom]
... so, given the delay before that meeting, it might be a good idea for the group to discuss this parameters beforehand
15:34:23 [dom]
... but maybe not today
15:34:24 [DKA]
q?
15:34:26 [DKA]
ack jo
15:34:26 [Zakim]
Jo, you wanted to say that this is going to take longer and needs a longer term commitment
15:34:30 [dom]
... what about putting on next week's agenda?
15:34:49 [dom]
Jo: sounds good
15:35:08 [dom]
... I think Kai is proposing himself as a leader of this TF
15:35:30 [dom]
DKA: right, but that predates the notion of TF itself
15:36:15 [dom]
Jo: we should check if he's interested in being the leader of this TF
15:36:27 [dom]
... and if he is, action-ing him to write a charter for the TF
15:36:46 [dom]
ACTION: Dan to check with Kai if he's interested in leading the mobileOK pro TF and asking him to prepare a TF charter if so
15:36:46 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-610 - Check with Kai if he's interested in leading the mobileOK pro TF and asking him to prepare a TF charter if so [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2007-12-13].
15:38:03 [dom]
Topic: Issues and Actions Tidy Up
15:38:15 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/ Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Issue/Action Summary
15:38:19 [DKA]
q?
15:39:06 [dom]
DKA: (about the accessibility doc) does it make sense to go through the document without Alan on the call?
15:39:13 [dom]
Jo: Alan won't be on the call next week either
15:39:27 [dom]
... members of the group are supposed to have read the document by now
15:39:44 [dom]
... I think the group should give Alan feedback asap
15:39:57 [dom]
... the group hasn't reviewed the document at all yet
15:40:06 [dom]
DKA: we did at the F2F
15:40:20 [dom]
Jo: I'd rather not have to lead the discussion on the accessibility document
15:40:38 [dom]
i/DKA: (/Topic: Accessibility document/
15:40:47 [Jo]
s/document/document because my voice will not hold out/
15:40:48 [dom]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/lates
15:41:02 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/latest Accessbility doc editors's draft
15:41:45 [dom]
DKA: my understanding is that the document is organized from a perspective of content authors who are interested both in accessibility and mobile web best practices
15:42:18 [dom]
... it describes what needs to be done if you've followed the BP and want to make your content accessible
15:42:35 [dom]
... from what I understand, the document is intended to be informational rather than normative
15:42:38 [dom]
ack sophia
15:43:26 [dom]
Dom: that's also my understanding
15:44:06 [dom]
DKA: section 2 describes the high-level view of the commonalities between accessibility and mobility
15:44:32 [dom]
... section 3 on how people with disabilities use the mobile web, but it is still empty
15:44:36 [dom]
ack sopha
15:44:38 [dom]
ack sophia
15:45:07 [dom]
... does anybody knows whether this is going to be filled up?
15:45:28 [dom]
... that may not be a showstopper, but would be good to know Alan's plans for this section
15:45:47 [dom]
... Section 4 explains in details how each BP can help accessibility-wise
15:46:01 [dom]
... and relates it to the level of WCAG 1.0 compliance as relevant
15:46:36 [dom]
... the document also means to cover wcag 2.0, but is currently still sketchy
15:47:05 [dom]
... I don't have enough background on WCAG 2.0 to make a judgment call on whether this matched what WCAG 2.0 or not
15:47:21 [dom]
... I think it's really up to Alan to sync with Shawn Henry and the WAI EO WG on this
15:48:43 [dom]
... the document finishes on how to use both WCAG and BP to achieve Web nirvana
15:48:56 [dom]
... there is still lots of missing stuff, but already plenty good stuff too
15:49:24 [dom]
... since the doc is now part of the WG-as-a-whole, I think we need to split up the work among WG participants to complete the missing parts
15:49:55 [dom]
... although it seems to be a prerequisite to be knowledgeable on WCAG 1.0 and 2.0 to be able to work on this
15:50:19 [dom]
... either by being already familiar with it, or doing extended research on it
15:50:39 [dom]
... except for Alan and Charles, I don't think many of us are very familiar with them unfortunately
15:50:53 [dom]
... Any suggestions as to how we can speed up the process in these conditions?
15:51:09 [dom]
Jo: I don't really know how we can avoid that problem really
15:51:22 [dom]
DKA: could we involve the community on this?
15:51:24 [dom]
q+
15:51:27 [dom]
ack sophia
15:51:29 [DKA]
ack dom
15:52:14 [dom]
Dom: the best way to get community involvement is to release the doc as FPWD, I would say
15:52:20 [dom]
DKA: I agree
15:52:35 [dom]
... we probably need to get agreement from the EO WG though
15:53:21 [Jo]
q+ to note that a similar amount of work is needed on the ProTests - so caveat Pro Task Force
15:53:29 [dom]
... should I check with Alan and Shawn on whether they're ok with it?
15:53:34 [Jo]
ack me
15:53:34 [Zakim]
Jo, you wanted to note that a similar amount of work is needed on the ProTests - so caveat Pro Task Force
15:53:57 [dom]
Dom: sounds good; make it clear we're very much aware this isn't anywhere ready, but we're trying to get more visibility on that work
15:54:08 [dom]
Jo: the amount of work needed is huge
15:54:30 [dom]
ACTION: Dan to check with Shawn and Alan on getting current doc as FPWD
15:54:30 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-611 - Check with Shawn and Alan on getting current doc as FPWD [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2007-12-13].
15:54:48 [Jo]
[and a similar amount is needed on the Pro Tests, so the Pro Task force needs to be aware of that]
15:56:20 [dom]
s/current doc as FPWD/current editors draft of accessibility document as FPWD/g
15:56:40 [dom]
DKA: we could go through issues and actions, or end the call early
15:57:22 [dom]
Topic: Action and issue review
15:57:56 [dom]
DKA: ok, let's end early, and leave it to group members to update their actions before next week
15:58:09 [dom]
[adjourned]
15:58:17 [Zakim]
-jo
15:58:18 [Zakim]
-Shahriar
15:58:19 [Zakim]
-Sophia-meeting
15:58:20 [Zakim]
-drooks
15:58:21 [Zakim]
-SeanP
15:58:23 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been DKA, jo, Dom, Francois, +1.703.265.aaaa, AlanTai, Shahriar, rob, Sean_Owen, drooks, SeanP
15:58:26 [Zakim]
-DKA
15:58:28 [dom]
RRSagent, draft minutes
15:58:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-bpwg-minutes.html dom
15:58:32 [Zakim]
-rob
15:58:33 [Zakim]
-AlanTai
15:58:42 [Zakim]
-Sean_Owen
15:58:43 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended
15:58:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were DKA, jo, Dom, Francois, +1.703.265.aaaa, AlanTai, Shahriar, rob, Sean_Owen, drooks, SeanP
15:58:53 [Jo]
Jo has left #bpwg
15:58:55 [rob]
rob has left #bpwg
18:01:25 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #bpwg