15:59:00 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 15:59:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-xproc-irc 15:59:02 ScribeNick: Norm 15:59:04 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 15:59:04 Date: 29 November 2007 15:59:08 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/11/29-agenda 15:59:10 Meeting: 93 15:59:12 Chair: Norm 15:59:14 Scribe: Norm 15:59:16 ScribeNick: Norm 15:59:31 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started 15:59:38 +Norm 16:01:15 PGrosso has joined #xproc 16:01:25 +[ArborText] 16:01:28 -Norm 16:01:29 +Norm 16:01:46 richard has joined #xproc 16:02:15 zakim, call ht-781 16:02:26 ok, richard; the call is being made 16:02:28 +Ht 16:02:36 +??P1 16:02:43 Zakim, ?? is me 16:02:48 zakim, what is the code? 16:02:56 +ruilopes; got it 16:03:00 the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), richard 16:03:04 +??P4 16:03:12 zakim, ? is me 16:03:12 +richard; got it 16:03:23 + +95247aaaa 16:04:14 Zakim, aaaa is me 16:04:14 +MoZ; got it 16:05:06 Zakim, who's on the phone? 16:05:06 On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso (muted), Ht, ruilopes, richard, MoZ 16:05:23 AndrewF has joined #xproc 16:06:02 Regrets: Alex, Murray 16:06:07 +??P13 16:06:11 zakim, ? is Andrew 16:06:11 +Andrew; got it 16:06:16 Present: Norm, Paul, Henry, Rui, Richard, Mohamed, Andrew 16:06:40 Topic: Accept this agenda? 16:06:40 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/11/29-agenda 16:06:49 Accepted. 16:07:00 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting? 16:07:00 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/11/15-minutes 16:07:44 Accepted. 16:07:50 ht has joined #xproc 16:07:56 Topic: Next meeting: telcon 6 December 2007? 16:08:49 Norm, let's meet on 13 December isntead 16:08:52 s/meet/meet next/ 16:09:03 No regrets for 13 December 16:09:25 s/No regrets/Mohamed gives likely regrets/ 16:10:10 Topic: Comment #68 Comments from the XSL WG 16:10:20 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments#C068 16:10:35 1. Resolved 16:10:46 2. Why all these steps? 16:11:02 Norm: I don't really have any sympathy for their position 16:11:32 Some answers: pipelines are easier to understand, streaming is likely to be easier in some cases, ... 16:12:36 Henry: I think it's worth emphasizing that we anticipate that a significant user community will be processing very large inputs through very simple pipeliens and having to pay the cost of an XSLT runtime for this is not very attractive 16:12:59 Norm: What do we say about the fact that we don't guarantee streamabilty 16:13:19 Henry: No, that's a QoI issue. 16:13:37 Norm: Ok, let's start there. Anyone want to add anything else? 16:14:47 Richard: The question about streaming is more specific. 16:15:22 Henry: It's very easy to detect a very small subset that's streamable, but that subset covers a lot of use cases. 16:16:05 Richard: If you want to do some analysis, you can stream up to a point and then build a tree which is less practical for XSLT 16:16:28 3. Parallel executions 16:17:59 Norm: I don't understand the comment. 16:18:04 Henry: I don't understand the third sentence. 16:18:58 Henry: The classic case is a document styled with a stylesheet generated from the same document. What's the problem? 16:19:13 Richard: I think maybe they just don't understand that we're saying you have to make it work. 16:19:38 Norm: I think we should ask them to clarify. 16:20:59 Richard: The statement in the spec about "the order determined by the connections" might be being taken too strong. 16:21:07 Henry: Something like, "in an order consistent with the connections"... 16:21:24 4. resolved 16:21:27 5. resolved. 16:21:32 6. resolved 16:21:52 ACTION: Norm to reply 16:22:16 Topic: Comment #69 should default ports be named 16:22:27 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments#C069 16:24:00 Agreed: we'll give them unreferencable names 16:24:19 Topic: Comment #70 circular imports 16:24:24 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments#C070 16:25:39 Mohamed: I don't find any context where it would be confusing 16:25:51 Norm: It's not possible on pipelines anymore, it's only on other compound steps 16:26:19 Richard: It's only the defaulted output ports of subpipelines. The only reason for allowing them is to save people from making up names in simple, linear pipelines. 16:26:44 ...I think if they want to make reference to names out-of-order then they should have to declare the port. 16:27:18 Mohamed: I'm ok with that. It'll be defaulted on both ends usually. 16:27:25 SCRIBE: BACK TO 70 HERE 16:28:34 Henry: I think his message has been overtaken. 16:28:48 ...Our discussion at the plenary clarified the issues a lot and moved us forward. 16:29:25 ...It would be good to get Alex's input. But we could talk about the last three paragraphs. 16:30:46 Richard: The main point of Henry's message is that there's a proof that it can be made to work. 16:31:34 ...Henry's description is based on the approach that I'm taking which does several passes. 16:32:12 Norm: I suggest we leave this open for a week to get Alex's input. 16:33:06 Henry: We need to say something about reentrancy as well as circularity 16:33:44 Richard: I don't think the term reentrant is generally understood to mean what you mean here 16:34:45 Richard: It's the diamond pattern: a imports b and c and b and c both import d 16:35:03 Norm: Yeah, the editor will have to figure out how to express that. Poor sd. 16:35:04 s/sd/sod/ 16:35:33 Topic: Comment #71 http-request/etc. and URI encoded references 16:35:49 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments#C071 16:36:51 Norm: I think they're all LEIRIs and that's all we need to say 16:36:54 Henry: I think we should say that. 16:37:01 Norm: I agree. I'll see if that satisfies Alex. 16:37:33 Topic: Comment #72 name attributes and fragment identifiers 16:37:39 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments#C072 16:39:16 Norm: There was some pushback on the places where I put names, so I think we probably need to discuss fragids and MIME types again 16:39:41 Ricahrd: I think there's value in having the names independent of the fragid question, it improves error reporting. 16:39:42 Here's the only place I can find which discusses fragids: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/08/09-minutes.html#item05 16:40:56 Henry: If we do this, then we have to address the question of uniqueness. Do we make these things unique like their sisters and cousins or not? 16:41:10 ...We have a general purpose mechanism for naming bits of XML syntax, it's xml:id. 16:41:45 ...I'd like to set this aside from the question of our own XPointer scheme for a moment. 16:41:56 Zakim, who's making noise? 16:42:07 Norm, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: richard (32%), Andrew (5%), Ht (67%) 16:42:09 PGrosso has joined #xproc 16:42:22 Henry: It feels a little bit like we have a hammer in our hands so everything looks like a nail. 16:42:38 Zakim, who is making noise ? 16:42:46 ...The most bizarre aspect of this is the fact that there's no discussion of the name attribute in some of those places, like p:declare-step. 16:42:49 MoZ, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: richard (48%), Ht (74%) 16:43:11 Henry: If you give a pipeline library a name attribute, people are going to think you can refer to it by name. 16:43:26 ...We don't really expect that to mean anything. 16:44:15 ...Users are going to think there's some deep complexity there but there isn't, there's barely any there there. 16:44:50 Richard: You took the names out, Norm, but they still get names like !3 16:45:06 Norm: Yes, but if we undo the fragid decision... 16:45:38 Richard: Like I said, I use the names to report errors and I use the ! names if they don't have any. 16:45:56 Henry: So what's the question? 16:46:13 Richard: Well, there's no doubt that all steps have to have names because they have ports. 16:46:26 ...So it's the things that don't have ports: pipeline-library, try, catch, when, otherwise, ... 16:46:51 Henry: My compromise position is, I'm a little nervous, but I could live with putting names on the schizophrenic contstructs. 16:46:55 s/try, catch/catch/ 16:47:21 Richard: It's the things inside try and inside choose except group. 16:48:04 Henry: Like I said, I could live with names there; it doesn't really conflict with the object model. 16:48:12 Henry: It's declare-step that I think shouldn't have one. 16:49:01 Richard: That's funny, I was going to go the other way. It seems that declare-step should be like pipeline in this regard. 16:49:20 Norm: We do have this weirdness with namespace and name in pipeline library. 16:49:32 Henry: I agree, pipeline and declare-step should have the same naming structure. 16:50:10 Norm: Name doesn't work then because they're NCName. 16:50:14 s/NCName/NCNames/ 16:50:32 Richard: Why would you ever want to have a single pipeline library taht declare steps in separate namespaces? 16:51:39 Norm: Because you aggregated them after you wrote them over time; I don't see how the library should have a bearing on the names. 16:51:47 Richard: Do we allow any steps to be in no namespace. 16:52:26 Norm: Yes, though it's not clear that we meant it to be that way. 16:53:01 no namespace is impossible because of ignorable-prefix 16:54:13 Norm: So where are we? 16:54:26 Henry: I'm prepared to float the following pair of changes: 16:54:50 ... 16:55:13 Henry: Reinstate optional names on when/otherwise/catch and remove name from pipeline and namespace from pipeline-library 16:56:15 Norm: You can't remove name from pipeline, that's how the steps refer to its ports 16:56:24 Henry: No, they use the local-name of the type attribute 16:56:50 Norm: Uhm. My initial reaction is "eew" but maybe I need to think about it some more. 16:57:07 Henry: Having to write name="foo" type="my:foo" is just hopelessly confusing. 16:57:36 Richard: The reason that pipeline is like this is because if its usual schizophrenia 16:57:48 ...You're allowed to have an unnamed pipeline at the moment. 16:58:12 ...And an untyped one. 16:58:50 Scribe lost Richard's thread 16:59:30 Henry: We'll never see names and types that are different 16:59:42 Norm: I don't agree, I might name all my pipelines 'main' irrespective of their type 17:00:06 Henry: So what I said before with a small modification: 17:00:18 1. Remove name from declare-step and pipeline-library 17:00:24 2. Add name to when/otherwise/catch 17:00:49 3. Remove namespace from pipeline-library 17:01:06 4. Remvoe the magic about name/namespace for defaulted types in a pipeline library 17:01:53 -MoZ 17:02:00 5. Make type required on a pipeline in a pipeline library 17:02:50 Norm: So the editor should give that a wack? 17:02:55 Agreed. 17:03:10 Topic: Any other business? 17:03:22 None. 17:03:26 Adjourned 17:03:31 -Andrew 17:03:33 -ruilopes 17:03:35 -PGrosso 17:03:36 -richard 17:03:46 PGrosso has left #xproc 17:06:32 Zakim, who's on the phone? 17:06:32 On the phone I see Norm, Ht 17:06:41 RRSAgent, set logs world-visible 17:06:46 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:06:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-xproc-minutes.html Norm 17:08:54 abstract = boolean : false 17:11:27 -Ht 17:11:30 -Norm 17:11:32 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended 17:11:33 Attendees were Norm, PGrosso, Ht, ruilopes, richard, +95247aaaa, MoZ, Andrew 18:59:30 MSM has joined #xproc 19:07:32 Zakim has left #xproc 19:40:34 MSM has joined #xproc