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00:48:03 Marcos__ - buenos días
00:48:28 heya mikesmith :)
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00:52:57 Marcos__ - andreas works for Opera here in Tokyo
00:54:23 mikesmith, how's the workshop going? what are you discussing?
00:55:43 Marcos__ - discussing something bout modalities
00:55:46 multiple ones
00:55:52 that's about as much as I know
00:56:08 hehe
00:56:12 only 2.5 hours of sleep last night
00:56:22 so I'm a little slow on the uptake at this point
00:56:54 fair enough
00:57:20 at least you didnt show up drunk :)
00:57:30 ...or did you? :D
00:57:59 not drunk -- just slightly buzzed
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13:25:52 DanC: i can make the html wg meeting today but will miss the first part
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13:45:19 ok; when do you think you can join?
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14:08:55 hmm... where's mikesmith? I'd like 2 more topic anchors before the aria thing in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes-other.html
14:09:24 Yay! HDP is being published :-)
14:10:16 DanC, any idea when the spec will be published?
14:10:44 I made the specification ready for publication yesterday
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14:23:10 DanC, any updates on the other drafts, which had pretty much the same feedback through the survey?
14:25:46 working on it
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15:43:13 DanC: can you delay the aria discussion until 15-20 minutes after the hour?
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15:45:20 I think so; actually, I forgot to put aria on the agenda.
15:45:37 is Hixie around to eyeball this canvas question? http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/
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15:54:36 can anybody else eyeball it? anne? mjs?
15:59:45 Is it relevant that canvas specification is mostly about documenting existing practice, since it's already implemented in most major browsers, and is not about developing a new feature?
16:14:04 I thought I captured a sense of that
16:14:51 "Do use cases such as games, shared whiteboards, and yahoo pipes and others in the ESW wiki motivate a requirement that HTML 5 provide an immediate mode graphics API and canvas element?"
16:15:04 oh... I could cite the relevant design principle.
16:15:25 I'm inclined to leave it up to wiki-elves to do that. I think the WBS question is clear enough.
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16:26:15 Zakim, this will be html
16:26:15 ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
16:26:42 agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-11-16T17:00:00Z
16:27:37 HTML WG teleconference 2007-11-16T17:00:00Z http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
16:27:44 DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG teleconference 2007-11-16T17:00:00Z http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
16:27:58 agenda + ISSUE-18 html-design-principles HTML Design Principles
16:28:07 agenda + ISSUE-19 html5-spec HTML 5 specification release(s)
16:28:16 agenda + ISSUE-15 immediate-mode-graphics requirement for Immediate Mode Graphics and canvas element
16:28:23 agenda + # ISSUE-14 aria-role Integration of WAI-ARIA roles into HTML5
16:28:31 agenda 5 = ISSUE-14 aria-role Integration of WAI-ARIA roles into HTML5
16:28:43 agenda + ISSUE-16 offline-applications-sql offline applications and data synchronization
16:28:56 agenda + face-to-face meeting 8-10 November, review
16:36:04 DanC: it looks fine to me, but I'd make it explicit that it is just defining current behaviour, and being compat with current content
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16:40:08 this question is not a judgement on the details of the design; just the requirement
16:40:24 thanks for the quick feedback, in any case
16:40:44 yes, I announced it when it was clear that you understood the question
16:42:39 er... where's MikeSmith?
16:54:38 ChrisWilson has joined #html-wg
16:59:36 HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
16:59:37 +JulianR
17:00:04 Lachy has joined #html-wg
17:00:52 +Gregory_Rosmaita
17:00:54 -Gregory_Rosmaita
17:00:55 +Gregory_Rosmaita
17:01:18 RRSAgent, pointer?
17:01:18 See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-irc#T17-01-18
17:01:25 Zakim, take up item 1
17:01:25 agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-11-16T17:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
17:01:35 +DanC
17:01:35 +??P9
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17:03:06 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
17:03:11 scribenick: oedipus
17:03:18 Meeting: HTML WG Weekly
17:03:43 Zakim, agenda?
17:03:43 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
17:03:44 1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-11-16T17:00:00Z [from DanC]
17:03:47 2. ISSUE-18 html-design-principles HTML Design Principles [from DanC]
17:03:49 3. ISSUE-19 html5-spec HTML 5 specification release(s) [from DanC]
17:03:51 4. ISSUE-15 immediate-mode-graphics requirement for Immediate Mode Graphics and canvas element [from DanC]
17:03:53 5. ISSUE-14 aria-role Integration of WAI-ARIA roles into HTML5
17:03:55 6. ISSUE-16 offline-applications-sql offline applications and data synchronization [from DanC]
17:03:58 7. face-to-face meeting 8-10 November, review [from DanC]
17:04:30 +Sam
17:05:24 Zakim, passcode?
17:05:24 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC
17:06:16 +[Microsoft]
17:06:25 Zakim, Microsoft is me
17:06:25 +ChrisWilson; got it
17:06:59 aaronlev has joined #html-wg
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17:07:27 GJR: to coordinate some IRC time to discuss HTML5 stylesheet issues with the editors/interested parties -- a limited color pallatte using named colors needs some negotiation (and some eyeballs) and i'm still testing actual support for CSS generated text using :before and :after
17:07:32 22 Nov telcon cancelled
17:07:45 CW: skip next week's meeting -- next meeting 29 November 2007 at 1700z
17:08:02 Zakim, next item
17:08:02 agendum 2. "ISSUE-18 html-design-principles HTML Design Principles" taken up [from DanC]
17:08:13 Zakim, who is here?
17:08:13 On the phone I see JulianR, Gregory_Rosmaita, hsivonen, DanC, Sam, ChrisWilson
17:08:13 TOPIC: HTML Design Principles
17:08:15 On IRC I see anne, aaronlev, rubys, Lachy, ChrisWilson, oedipus, Zakim, gavin, Sander, billmason, smedero, Julian, timbl, shepazu, marcospod, myakura, zcorpan, tH, xover, Thezilch,
17:08:20 ... gavin_, mjs, JanC, marcos, jmb, heycam, gsnedders, paullewis, DanC, Shunsuke, Hixie, Dashiva, Philip, drry, Bert, laplink, bogi, jane, krijnh, deltab, beowulf, hsivonen,
17:08:22 Zakim, passcode?
17:08:23 ... trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu, RRSAgent
17:08:24 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
17:08:34 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/18 HTML Design Principles
17:08:39 DanC: migrated issues to issue tracker -- issue 18
17:08:52 +??P13
17:08:55 DanC: completed action to email negative responders
17:09:08 +anne
17:09:19 Zakim, ??P13 is aaronlev
17:09:19 +aaronlev; got it
17:09:24 DanC: Mike(tm)Smith still needs to compile minutes from saturday's HTML f2f session
17:09:33 DanC: mjs Action 20 completed
17:09:45 DanC: explores for a "comments" mailing list
17:10:13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/
17:10:32 DanC: feedback on HDP should be sent to public-html-comments@w3.org
17:10:54 s/feedback/outside feedback/
17:11:01 Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:11:01 On the phone I see JulianR, Gregory_Rosmaita, hsivonen, DanC, Sam, ChrisWilson, aaronlev, anne
17:11:13 Zakim, next item
17:11:13 agendum 3. "ISSUE-19 html5-spec HTML 5 specification release(s)" taken up [from DanC]
17:11:28 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/19
17:11:30 TOPIC: HTML5 Specification Draft Release
17:11:51 DanC: had conversation with PTaylor about formal objection - action done
17:12:09 DanC: completed action to email negative and non-responders - done
17:12:44 Chairs have said the question does not carry -- WG will keep working on spec
17:12:58 DanC found out non-responders are not ok to publish
17:13:08 Anne: graphics API a problem?
17:13:34 DanC: publication starts the clock on W3C process
17:14:02 Anne?/Henri?: deadline? make something available?
17:14:49 s/Anne\?\/Henri\?/Anne/
17:14:50 DanC: like those who responded no to releasing draft to explain comments on questions; question may need to be refined
17:15:03 Zakim, next item
17:15:03 agendum 4. "ISSUE-15 immediate-mode-graphics requirement for Immediate Mode Graphics and canvas element" taken up [from DanC]
17:15:13 TOPIC: ISSUE 15 Immediate Mode Graphics
17:15:45 DanC: ChrisW get info from MS (10 december deadline); DanC put question to WG http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/
17:15:51 Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:15:52 On the phone I see JulianR, Gregory_Rosmaita, hsivonen, DanC, Sam, ChrisWilson, aaronlev, anne
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17:16:35 Anne: how does modification of activity affect charter? results clear -- if say "yes" then might be changed
17:17:16 DanC: question is "who is everyone" -- question to HTML WG and question to W3C; feedback at TPAC was that this issue is in scope; not critical path for denying discussions
17:17:29 Anne: membership ok with it, can we carry on as usual?
17:17:40 DanC: presuming all goes well, continue on in parallell
17:18:37 JulianR: can answer in week
17:19:07 Henri: can answer in week; question posed isn't what i want answered -- 3 of top 4 already implementing
17:19:15 ChrisW: questions 3 out of 4
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17:19:32 DanC: a lot of people have made up their mind, but the question still has to be fielded
17:20:03 q+ to suggest a survey with some options in parallel
17:20:26 ChrisW: in scope of WebAPI or not? 3 of 4 implemented shouldn't make issue one for HTML WG -- question whether covered by charter or patent policy; some implementors don't believe charter needs to be implemented, but that is my gut feeling
17:21:11 DanC: considering doing an informal survey in parallel with formal survey; CANVAS tag in HTML WG and CANVAS tag in HTML WG or other WG? if formal question doesn't carry, still gaining info
17:21:30 My point is that 3 out of 4 implementers implementing means this IS in scope of "the platform"; the question, to my mind, is whether this is covered by our charter and therefore covered by the patent policy.
17:22:00 DanC: been suggested that html5 spec should have CANVAS in it and cite document with graphics API -- question of whether HTML WG develops document or another WG develops document
17:22:11 The goal in creating a W3C WG with a patent policy is to explicitly lay out what that WG is going to do, so companies getting involved in the WG know what IP they may be offering up.
17:22:15 Anne: rather keep it in HTML WG; willing to answer survey
17:22:16 Charters cannot be open-ended.
17:22:28 isn't everything in the spec covered by the patent policy, regardless of whether it's explicitly in the charter?
17:22:58 JulianR: spec already too complex -- need to seriously discuss way to take things out and harmonize with existing specs
17:23:26 agenda + outcome of HTML for authors session
17:23:56 GJR: spec too complex, but can answer any survey
17:24:03 Lachy, everything in the spec IS covered by the patent policy. Joining a working group cannot be opening a company's entire patent portfolio in a free-for-all, or those with large patent portfolios would be foolish to participate at all - weakening the point of having a patent policy.
17:24:44 Henri: formal survey first, then consider steps to separate API portions of spec; question of whether anything should be taken out of spec dependent upon who is going to edit that portion of spec -- do we have expertise?
17:25:04 SamR: can't answer within week; support informal survey; do have charter concerns
17:25:13 so the real question is, does Microsoft have patents that they do not want to give up, but which they would be forced to if canvas were included?
17:25:15 ChrisW: yes, can answer question
17:25:22 AaronL: not likely to have opinion now
17:25:29 oedipus: I said I CAN answer within a week
17:25:29 trackbot-ng,
17:25:32 trackbot-ng, status
17:25:45 Lachy, without having a charter that scopes the WG's specifications, I can't know the answer to that question.
17:25:47 ACTION: Dan consider informal survey on canvas tactics
17:25:47 Created ACTION-21 - Consider informal survey on canvas tactics [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-23].
17:25:52 SCRIBE'S NOTE: Sam Ruby CAN answer within a week
17:26:09 Zakim, next item
17:26:09 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, DanC
17:26:14 ack danc
17:26:14 DanC, you wanted to suggest a survey with some options in parallel
17:26:17 Zakim, next item
17:26:17 agendum 5. "ISSUE-14 aria-role Integration of WAI-ARIA roles into HTML5" taken up
17:26:18 With the charter we have now, our legal staff did not investigate our graphics patents.
17:26:29 TOPIC: ISSUE 14 ARIA Role Integration
17:26:33 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14
17:26:58 DanC: action on URI extensibility -
17:27:11 some progress: http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/11/a_story_about_namespaces_mime.html
17:27:11 AaronL: hard time figuring out what was being proposed
17:27:22 DanC: specific questions?
17:27:24 ChrisWilson, didn't the legal department look at the existing whatwg spec, so that they would have a better idea of what to look for, rather than relying on the vague charter?
17:27:42 http://norman.walsh.name/2007/11/12/implNamespaces
17:27:50 AaronL: page to other links, couldn't ascertain what was DanC's contribution
17:27:56 Lachy, the WHATWG spec is not our charter.
17:27:59 q+ to talk about Norm Walsh's blog post
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17:28:12 Nor has the WHATWG spec been stable in that time frame.
17:28:14 concrete charters tend to trump draft specs
17:28:18