16:04:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
16:04:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc
16:04:14 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
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16:04:20 <Ralph> zakim, this will be rdfa
16:04:20 <Zakim> ok, Ralph, I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM already started
16:04:24 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:04:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P15, Michael_Hausenblas
16:04:28 <Zakim> +Ben
16:04:30 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
16:04:30 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
16:04:41 <Zakim> +Ralph
16:04:49 <Ralph> Meeting: RDFa Task Force
16:04:52 <Ralph> Chair: Ben
16:05:03 <Zakim> +markbirbeck
16:05:08 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0040.html
16:05:15 <Ralph> zakim, ??p15 is Manuy
16:05:15 <Zakim> +Manuy; got it
16:05:23 <Ralph> zakim, Manuy is Manu
16:05:23 <Zakim> +Manu; got it
16:06:01 <Ralph> Regrets: Steven
16:06:49 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/26-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-10-26
16:07:12 <Ralph> Topic: ISWC
16:07:28 <Ralph> Michael: lots of questions, especially "when will the spec be finished?!"
16:07:34 <Ralph> ... lots of discussion of open data
16:07:39 <Ralph> ... see Ivan's blog
16:07:43 <benadida> --> http://ivanherman.wordpress.com/
16:07:51 <benadida> --> http://ivanherman.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/iswc2007-?-first-day/
16:08:46 <Ralph> Topic: Action Review
16:09:05 <Ralph> Michael: I talked with Fabien for a while, especially about profile
16:09:16 <Ralph> ... Fabien said he'd be happy to give his stuff to W3C
16:09:32 <Ralph> ... we already have the RDFa GRDDL profile URI assigned
16:09:47 <Ralph> Ben: is there a licensing question for Fabien's work?
16:09:53 <Ralph> Michael: not aware of one
16:10:15 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C
16:11:06 <Ralph> Michael: there were two RDFa-based things shown at ISWC
16:11:14 <Ralph> ... most people seemed to already know about RDFa
16:11:21 <Ralph> Topic: Action Review
16:11:34 <Ralph> [WITHDRAWN] ACTION: Steven propose an adaptation of the CSS whitespace rules to incorporate into the Syntax document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
16:11:49 <Ralph> Ben: given consensus forming around Mark's proposal on the mailing list I think we can withdraw this
16:12:01 <Ralph> [DONE] Ben enter Ivan's concerns in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0173.html as issues in tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
16:12:09 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
16:12:11 <Ralph> -- continues
16:12:19 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
16:12:20 <Ralph> -- continues
16:12:30 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael and Manu investigate with Ivan the implementation of the test case validator proposal on w3.org [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
16:12:34 <Ralph> -- done
16:12:46 <Ralph> Manu: it's hosted outside of W3C right now
16:13:21 <Ralph> ... we'll wait until we've published a public draft before moving it to W3C
16:13:33 <Ralph> ... easier to fix bugs on my site before moving it to W3C
16:14:12 <Ralph> Ralph: would a proxy URI work given your implementation?
16:14:20 <Ralph> Manu: not sure; there's a lot of javascript
16:14:27 <Ralph> ... there's a redirect right now
16:15:30 <Ralph> ... I'll find the URI after this call
16:15:40 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
16:15:42 <Ralph> -- continue
16:18:51 <Ralph> Topic: follow-your-nose
16:18:54 <Ralph> Ralph: have we decided this?
16:19:06 <Ralph> Ben: yes, we've agreed that @profile is permitted but not required
16:19:15 <Ralph> Ralph: have we documented this adequately?
16:19:25 <Ralph> Mark: no, I've not finished the words in the syntax doc
16:20:03 <Ralph> Michael: Shane suggested a way to anchor the syntax doc so it can be referenced from the test suite
16:20:41 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28 issue 28 follow-your-nose
16:21:00 <Ralph> "2007-11-15: agreement from telecon that we have a profile, we encourage its use where possible, but we don't require it. This needs to be stated clearly in the syntax (it's not currently.)"
16:21:24 <Ralph> Topic: whitespace canonicalization
16:22:02 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0029.html "[Fwd: ISSUE-63: White-Space Canonicalization of XML Literals]" [Ben 2007-11-08]
16:22:13 <Ralph> Ben: I think we agreed to use XPath normalized space rules
16:22:24 <Ralph> ... to canonicalize non-XML literals
16:22:46 <Ralph> ... 3 pieces: plain literals - no data type declared or datatype declared as empty
16:22:59 <Ralph> ... for plain literals, use XPath normalized space as Mark proposed
16:23:15 <Ralph> Michael: Fabien would like us to base on XPath too
16:23:27 <Ralph> Ben: any objections?
16:23:29 <Ralph> (none)
16:23:49 <Ralph> Ben: PROPOSE plain literals normalized using XPath normalized space
16:24:00 <mhausenblas> +1
16:24:17 <Ralph> RESOLVED plain literals are normalized using XPath normalized-space
16:24:58 <Ralph> Michael: technically this means remove leading and trailing whitespace and collapse consecutive whitespace to a single whitespace
16:25:32 <Ralph> Ben: parts 2 & 3 - typed non-XML literals  and XMLLiterals
16:25:47 <Ralph> ... for non-XML literals I believe we should do the same thing [as plain literal]
16:26:05 <Ralph> Manu: are there any XSD datatypes that require spaces?
16:26:27 <Ralph> ... if not, the argument in favor of using XPath normalized-space for this too is stronger
16:26:39 <Ralph> Ben: I'm not aware of any; they'd be hard to render in HTML
16:26:51 <Ralph> ... what do we do with value of @content ?
16:27:08 <Ralph> Mark: I'm drafting a reply to the mail
16:27:16 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure what we should do with all the cases
16:27:28 <Ralph> ... the more I've looked into this, the more awkward it seems to be getting
16:27:43 <Ralph> ... mainly the relationship to the browser
16:27:57 <Ralph> ... the normal behaviour with XML appears to be to remove white space even in an attribute
16:28:19 <Ralph> Manu: no, xs:normalize-string tells the XML process to remove whitespace and the default is to preserve whitespace
16:28:35 <Ralph> Ben: let's close the non-XML cases first
16:28:39 <benadida> <span content="   foo   bar   " />
16:29:07 <Ralph> Ben: are spaces in @content preserved?  I suspect so, but am not sure
16:29:08 <mhausenblas> -> http://xml.silmaril.ie/authors/whitespace/
16:30:05 <Ralph> Mark: we're limited in our flexibility because of what browsers actually do
16:30:36 <Ralph> ... if there are browsers that return "foo bar" in that example, or browsers that remove newlines, we'd have to force normalization
16:30:56 <Ralph> Ben: it's clear to me that we want to normalize whatever the user would actually see
16:31:06 <Ralph> ... not so clear what should happen for @content
16:31:19 <Ralph> Mark: the rendering of content with whitespace is already clearly defined
16:31:30 <Ralph> ... consecutive whitespace is collapsed
16:31:34 <mhausenblas> Support Mark: -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml11-20060816/#sec-white-space XML spec
16:31:53 <Ralph> ... question is what the DOM level returns in a query
16:32:10 <Ralph> Ben: I think element content and attribute values are handled differently by browsers
16:32:23 <Ralph> ... e.g. Firefox appears to preserve all whitespace in attribute value
16:33:00 <Ralph> ... seems to support the model that data visible to user is normalized and when the author wants to override that, use @content
16:33:22 <Ralph> Mark: seems that could work
16:33:27 <Ralph> Manu: sounds like a good approach
16:33:33 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml-modularization-20010410/conformance.html#s_conform_user_agent XHTML spec
16:34:09 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben check that browsers do preserve whitespace in attribute values
16:34:23 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael check that HTML spec says to preserve whitespace in attribute values
16:34:59 <Ralph> Ben: assuming that element content is normalized and attribute values preserve whitespace,
16:35:36 <benadida> normalize: <span property="dc:date" datatype="xsd:date">     2007-11-15   </span>
16:36:04 <benadida> don't normalize: <span property="dc:date" datatype="xsd:date" content="    2007-11-15   " />
16:37:02 <Ralph> ... does it make sense to normalize element content and not normalize @content even when datatype is specified?
16:37:09 <Ralph> Manu: yep, makes sense
16:37:44 <Ralph> Mark: in XML spec, there's full normalization of element content; newlines removed, whitespace collapsed
16:37:59 <Ralph> ... then there's another kind of normalization that replaces newlines with a single whitespace
16:38:33 <Ralph> ... if there were a newline in @content, that would have become a single space
16:38:45 <markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xml-20001006#AVNormalize
16:38:49 <Ralph> ... so it's not just leaving attribute value untouched
16:39:26 <Ralph> Ben: Firefox appears to remove newline from attribute value
16:40:15 <markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml-modularization-20010410/conformance.html#s_conform_user_agent
16:41:22 <Ralph> Ben: on further testing, Firefox strips leading newline but preserves non-leading newlines
16:41:43 <Ralph> ... so we need to both understand the [XML] spec and investigate what browsers are actually doing
16:41:51 <Ralph> ... hopefully the browsers are doing something sensible
16:42:06 <Ralph> Michael: and hopefully the browsers behave consistently
16:42:31 <Ralph> Mark: we could add our own rules, such as requiring leading newlines to be stripped
16:43:06 <Ralph> Ben: for XMLLiterals, I'd like us to preserve them if we can
16:43:16 <Ralph> ... but if browsers do canonicalize, I think we have to allow it
16:43:36 <Ralph> ... I don't expect canonicalization to change how the literal is rendered
16:44:23 <Ralph> Ben: conclusion; we'll normalize plain literals and element content but not normalize @content value except perhaps for special rule about leading newlines depending on what browsers do
16:44:57 <Ralph> ... I need to test both in HTML and XHTML mode
16:45:50 <Ralph> Topic: @instanceof
16:46:26 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0030.html "chaining-friendly rules for @instanceof" [Ben 2007-11-08]
16:47:06 <Ralph> Mark: happy with the list discussion
16:47:12 <Ralph> ... I'm more clear now on where the problems lie
16:47:47 <Ralph> ... in most areas Ben's proposal and mine appear to be in agreement
16:48:02 <Ralph> ... my main problem with Ben's @instanceof rule is that things change meaning as you add or remove markup
16:48:56 <Ralph> ... I feel strongly enough about the flipping of meaning that I'd rather remove @instanceof for now in the interest of time
16:49:41 <Ralph> ... reinvention of chaining shows it is a useful concept
16:50:05 <Ralph> ... I think we can tweak things to work
16:50:20 <Ralph> ... and easier than trying to make @instanceof sometimes apply to subject and sometimes to object
16:50:44 <Ralph> ... I'd like to say that adding predicates always behaves consistently
16:51:01 <Ralph> ... once a subject is declared, predicates are added to it in a consistent way
16:51:13 <Ralph> ... people need time to look through the long emails
16:52:04 <Ralph> Ben: does this really only concern @instanceof?  in email Mark described chaining rules that appear to interpret some markup differently
16:52:32 <Ralph> Mark: I couldn't see any differences in the treatment of chaining if we drop @instanceof except one case where Ben has an additional rule
16:52:56 <Ralph> ... the general idea of chaining is that there's a subject and predicate and the object can become the subject of further predicates
16:53:02 <benadida> <div rel="foaf:knows">   <span about="#ivan" property="foaf:name">Ivan</span> </div>
16:53:23 <Ralph> ... the one rule I've added is @rel without an object can take object from @about in a child element
16:53:29 <Ralph> s/where Ben has/where I have/
16:53:48 <Ralph> Ben: in my example above, I believe the current parsing rules do not cause chaining
16:53:58 <Ralph> ... in Mark's proposal this example would cause chaining
16:54:49 <Ralph> Mark: right.
16:55:41 <Ralph> Ben: if we accept this model of chaining but keep @instanceof, then are there use cases we can't express?
16:55:45 <Ralph> Mark: I don't think so
16:56:48 <Ralph> Ben: I think that having an element pick up the object from a child is core to solving some use cases
16:57:04 <markbirbeck> <div rel="foaf:knows">  <span property="foaf:name">Ivan</span> </div>
16:57:26 <benadida> <> foaf:knows [foaf:name "Ivan"] .
16:58:20 <Ralph> Mark: in my model, @instanceof behaves no differently from any other predicate
16:58:33 <markbirbeck> <div rel="foaf:knows">  <span property="foaf:name" instanceof="foaf:Person">Ivan</span> </div>
16:59:10 <Ralph> Ben: the way I interpret Manu's rules, it seems there is no chaining
16:59:16 <markbirbeck> <> foaf:knows [foaf:name "Ivan"; rdf:type foaf:Person] .
16:59:21 <Ralph> ... the foaf:knows would be left hanging
16:59:25 <Ralph> Manu: that's not what I meant
16:59:35 <Ralph> ... I meant what I think Mark is proposing
16:59:56 <Ralph> ... I don't think there's a difference between what Mark is saying and what I was trying to say
17:01:04 <Ralph> Ben: I'm worried about some inconsistencies
17:01:19 <Zakim> -Ralph
17:02:51 <mhausenblas> ScribeNick: mhausenblas
17:02:57 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:03:23 <mhausenblas> Ben: Other issues?
17:03:45 <mhausenblas> (none)
17:03:55 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public 
17:07:25 <mhausenblas> Ben: Will send out some examples - TF members will play mechanical-turk-parser
17:07:52 <markbirbeck> http://newsbiscuit.com/article/disillusioned-mr-google-resigns-199
17:08:11 <markbirbeck> On being a mechanical turk :)
17:08:25 <msporny> :)
17:09:05 <mhausenblas> Michael: Regarding TC we need to get the one which are on-hold either approved or get rid of it
17:09:50 <mhausenblas> Ben: We are on good way to Last Call - let's keep on the good work!
17:10:07 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:10:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:10:33 <Zakim> -Manu
17:10:35 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
17:10:36 <Zakim> -Michael_Hausenblas
17:10:36 <Zakim> -Ben
17:10:37 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:10:38 <Zakim> Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ben, Ralph, markbirbeck, Manu
17:10:54 <mhausenblas> Zakim, list attendees
17:10:54 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I don't know what conference this is
17:11:03 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
17:11:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:12:01 <mhausenblas> zakim, bye
17:12:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
17:12:07 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, bye
17:12:07 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [1]
17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-10-15
17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [2]
17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-12-09
17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [3]
17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-12-19
17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael and Manu investigate with Ivan the implementation of the test case validator proposal on w3.org [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [4]
17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-12-30
17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [5]
17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-15-40
17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben check that browsers do preserve whitespace in attribute values [6]
17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-34-09
17:12:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael check that HTML spec says to preserve whitespace in attribute values [7]
17:12:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc#T16-34-23
19:44:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
19:44:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-irc
19:45:16 <Ralph> i/Agenda: http/scribenick: Ralph/
19:45:37 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
19:45:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
19:45:41 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
19:45:48 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
19:45:49 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
19:45:49 <RRSAgent> I see no action items