IRC log of owl on 2007-11-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:55:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #owl
17:55:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc
17:55:55 [jjc2]
wrong bijan: *I* say something
17:56:18 [jjc2]
jjc2 has joined #owl
17:56:22 [bijan]
see?
17:56:43 [jjc2]
This dodgy connection problem again ...
17:56:55 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
17:56:55 [Zakim]
sorry, bijan, I don't know what conference this is
17:57:07 [Conrad]
ScribeNick:Conrad
17:57:24 [jjc2]
Zakim, this is SW_OWL
17:57:24 [Zakim]
ok, jjc2; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM
17:57:39 [jjc2]
Zakim, mute bijan
17:57:39 [Zakim]
sorry, jjc2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to bijan
17:57:47 [alanr]
trackbot help
17:57:47 [jjc]
jjc has joined #owl
17:57:48 [jjc]
jjc has joined #owl
17:57:48 [jjc]
Zakim, who's on the call?
17:57:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Conrad, Alan, Sandro, ??P19
17:57:51 [alanr]
akim help
17:57:54 [alanr]
zakim help
17:58:01 [jjc]
Zakim, ??P19 is bijan
17:58:01 [Zakim]
+bijan; got it
17:58:04 [alanr]
zakim, this is owl
17:58:04 [Zakim]
alanr, this was already SW_OWL()12:00PM
17:58:05 [Zakim]
ok, alanr; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM
17:58:07 [bijan]
zakim, this is owl
17:58:07 [Zakim]
bijan, this was already SW_OWL()12:00PM
17:58:08 [Zakim]
ok, bijan; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM
17:58:25 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
17:58:25 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
17:58:27 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
17:58:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted)
17:58:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jjc, jjc2, RRSAgent, Zakim, MikeSmith, DougL, alanr, Carsten, Conrad, ewallace, MartinD, pfps, bijan, trackbot-ng
17:58:34 [bijan]
can anyone here me?
17:59:07 [Zakim]
+MikeSmith_
17:59:11 [Zakim]
+??P27
17:59:13 [bijan]
Carsten, is uli calling it with you?
17:59:22 [pfps]
zakim, ??P27 is me
17:59:22 [Zakim]
+pfps; got it
17:59:23 [Zakim]
+Doug
17:59:24 [Zakim]
+Evan_Wallace
17:59:33 [Ratnesh]
Ratnesh has joined #owl
17:59:51 [Ratnesh]
ratnesh from DERI
18:00:01 [Zakim]
+??P35
18:00:04 [MartinD]
zakim, ??p35 is me
18:00:04 [Zakim]
+MartinD; got it
18:00:41 [jjc2]
jjc2 has joined #owl
18:00:42 [jjc2]
jjc2 has joined #owl
18:01:11 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
18:01:11 [Zakim]
pfps should now be muted
18:01:18 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
18:01:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted), MikeSmith, pfps (muted), Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD
18:01:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jjc2, Ratnesh, jjc, RRSAgent, Zakim, MikeSmith, DougL, alanr, Carsten, Conrad, ewallace, MartinD, pfps, bijan, trackbot-ng
18:02:05 [sandro]
sandro has joined #owl
18:02:25 [sandro]
zakim, list attendees
18:02:25 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan, pfps, Doug, Evan_Wallace, MikeSmith, MartinD
18:02:26 [alanr]
Action: Sandro will check with Josh about UFDTF zakim setup for tomorrow
18:02:26 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-9 - Will check with Josh about UFDTF zakim setup for tomorrow [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-11-21].
18:02:35 [jjc]
jjc has joined #owl
18:02:35 [Zakim]
+??P34
18:02:36 [jjc]
jjc has joined #owl
18:02:46 [Zakim]
+??P6
18:02:55 [jjc]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
18:03:06 [Zakim]
+jjc; got it
18:03:07 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
18:03:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted), MikeSmith, pfps (muted), Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD, ??P34, jjc
18:03:26 [jjc]
Zakim, jjc is unknown
18:03:33 [jjc]
Zakim, ??P34 is jjc
18:03:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jjc, sandro, jjc2, Ratnesh, RRSAgent, Zakim, MikeSmith, DougL, alanr, Carsten, Conrad, ewallace, MartinD, pfps, bijan, trackbot-ng
18:03:41 [Zakim]
+unknown; got it
18:03:46 [sandro]
zakim, who is talking?
18:03:47 [Zakim]
+jjc; got it
18:04:04 [jjc]
Zakim, mute me
18:04:14 [Zakim]
sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Alan (50%), Sandro (4%), jjc (15%)
18:04:16 [alanr]
zakim, who is here?
18:04:18 [Zakim]
jjc should now be muted
18:04:22 [sandro]
(the echo went away with jjc muted)
18:04:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted), MikeSmith, pfps (muted), Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD, jjc (muted), unknown
18:04:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jjc, sandro, jjc2, Ratnesh, RRSAgent, Zakim, MikeSmith, DougL, alanr, Carsten, Conrad, ewallace, MartinD, pfps, bijan, trackbot-ng
18:04:40 [Zakim]
+Carsten
18:05:09 [Carsten]
zakim, mute me
18:05:09 [Zakim]
Carsten should now be muted
18:05:11 [sandro]
Ratnesh, type: "Zakim, unknown is me"
18:05:22 [jjc2]
jjc2 has joined #owl
18:05:23 [jjc2]
jjc2 has joined #owl
18:05:34 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
18:05:34 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-05-34
18:05:44 [pfps]
q+
18:05:45 [Ratnesh]
unknown is me
18:05:51 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
18:05:51 [Zakim]
pfps should no longer be muted
18:05:59 [sandro]
Ratnesh, you need need the leading "Zakim, "
18:06:09 [bijan]
I had an email about datetypes as well which might be helpful: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Nov/0052.html
18:06:17 [sandro]
q- ??P34
18:06:22 [Conrad]
Alan added items to the previoous agenda.
18:06:37 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
18:06:37 [Zakim]
pfps should now be muted
18:06:48 [alanr]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions
18:06:53 [Ratnesh]
Zakim, unknown ia ratnesh
18:06:53 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'unknown ia ratnesh', Ratnesh
18:07:10 [Ratnesh]
Zakim, unknown is ratnesh
18:07:10 [Zakim]
+ratnesh; got it
18:07:19 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
18:07:19 [Zakim]
pfps should no longer be muted
18:07:22 [Uli]
Uli has joined #owl
18:07:25 [sandro]
zakim, who is here?
18:07:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Carsten (muted), Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted), MikeSmith, pfps, Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD, jjc (muted), ratnesh
18:07:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Uli, jjc2, sandro, Ratnesh, RRSAgent, Zakim, MikeSmith, DougL, alanr, Carsten, Conrad, ewallace, MartinD, pfps, bijan, trackbot-ng
18:07:33 [jjc]
jjc has joined #owl
18:07:54 [Conrad]
Correction: Alan added items to the previoous minutes.
18:08:03 [bijan]
Here: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.11.07/Minutes#Summary_of_Action_Items
18:08:10 [sandro]
Present: Carsten, Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan, MikeSmith, pfps, Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD, jjc, ratnesh
18:08:18 [sandro]
zakim, make minutes
18:08:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make minutes', sandro
18:08:19 [jjc]
jjc has joined #owl
18:08:35 [pfps]
other business - the status of ISSUE-14
18:08:44 [sandro]
RRSAgent, , make minutes
18:08:44 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand ', make minutes', sandro. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:08:54 [Conrad]
Discussion of how actionitems from previous action items didn't makte it into previous minutes.
18:09:31 [alanr]
ACTION: Boris to send an email about issue 11 fixed and how to fix issue 28
18:09:31 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-10 - Send an email about issue 11 fixed and how to fix issue 28 [on Boris Motik - due 2007-11-21].
18:09:40 [alanr]
ACTION: Boris to send an email on issue 3
18:09:40 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-11 - Send an email on issue 3 [on Boris Motik - due 2007-11-21].
18:09:54 [alanr]
ACTION: pfps to send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED
18:09:54 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps
18:10:33 [alanr]
ACTION: peter to send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED
18:10:33 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-12 - Send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2007-11-21].
18:10:37 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
18:10:37 [Zakim]
pfps should now be muted
18:12:01 [bijan]
Like: action: ian to send out email soliciting other proposals for the 2nd f2f
18:12:28 [bijan]
ACTION: ian to send out email soliciting other proposals for the 2nd f2f
18:12:28 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-13 - Send out email soliciting other proposals for the 2nd f2f [on Ian Horrocks - due 2007-11-21].
18:13:23 [Uli]
but this email has been sent out?
18:13:53 [pfps]
there are also lots of order issues in last week's minutes and lack of context
18:14:17 [Conrad]
Discussion of minutes editing, remove "chit chat", general readability, 20-30 minutes in cleanup.
18:14:47 [bijan]
I suggest we accept the uncleanuped minutes
18:15:06 [bijan]
I mean, is there anything untrue in them?
18:15:13 [DougL]
+1
18:15:14 [sandro]
PROPOSED: accept previous minutes, as is
18:15:14 [pfps]
-1
18:15:17 [bijan]
+1 to accept
18:15:19 [Conrad]
+1
18:15:23 [MartinD]
+1
18:15:29 [Uli]
+1
18:15:30 [MikeSmith]
+1 to accept previous minutes
18:15:30 [Ratnesh]
+1
18:15:55 [pfps]
status of ISSUES 13 and 14
18:16:00 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
18:16:00 [Zakim]
pfps should no longer be muted
18:16:02 [Conrad]
Vote on whether to accept uncleaned up minutes from previously.
18:16:21 [bijan]
Weren't these resolved?
18:16:22 [sandro]
Alan: Peter, is there something damaging about accepting these minutes if we agree future ones will be held to a higher standard?
18:16:23 [jjc]
(I tend to feel that meeting mintues should be unanimous)
18:16:31 [alanr]
+1
18:16:34 [jjc]
I'll side with peter if it makes this easier
18:16:35 [ewallace]
agree with Peter
18:16:50 [Conrad]
ACTION: Alan to clean up minutes
18:16:50 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-14 - Clean up minutes [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-11-21].
18:17:07 [jjc]
no
18:17:21 [sandro]
proposal rejected
18:17:45 [Conrad]
Vote and discussion result: not accept uncleaned up minutes.
18:18:37 [jeremy]
jeremy has joined #owl
18:18:51 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
18:18:51 [Zakim]
pfps should now be muted
18:19:41 [pfps]
pfps has joined #owl
18:19:51 [alanr]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/4
18:20:31 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
18:20:31 [Zakim]
pfps was already muted, pfps
18:20:48 [Conrad]
ACTION Sandro: to explain how to fix red names on wiki pages.
18:21:17 [MartinD]
zakim, mute me
18:21:17 [Zakim]
MartinD should now be muted
18:21:27 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
18:21:27 [Zakim]
pfps should no longer be muted
18:21:59 [ewallace]
Peter notes that the syntax document is still missing all but its first figure
18:22:11 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
18:22:11 [Zakim]
pfps was not muted, pfps
18:22:44 [Conrad]
ACTION alan: To upload images.
18:23:18 [sandro]
ACTION: Alan to upload the rest of the inline images in the Syntax document
18:23:18 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-15 - Upload the rest of the inline images in the Syntax document [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-11-21].
18:23:26 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
18:23:26 [Zakim]
pfps should now be muted
18:23:37 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
18:23:37 [Zakim]
pfps should no longer be muted
18:23:39 [alanr]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Nov/0283.html
18:24:13 [Conrad]
Topic: April FTF
18:24:25 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
18:24:25 [Zakim]
pfps was not muted, pfps
18:24:46 [bijan]
Need a survey since most people are not on the call
18:24:51 [Conrad]
+1
18:24:56 [pfps]
Agree on the survey
18:24:58 [pfps]
+1
18:25:03 [sandro]
+1 tthese days are fine for me
18:25:12 [ewallace]
Alan asks if people can make first wk in April for FTF2
18:25:29 [ewallace]
+1
18:25:40 [pfps]
wiki page looks good to me
18:25:43 [Ratnesh]
+1 days are fine
18:25:58 [MikeSmith]
+ dates are fine
18:26:20 [pfps]
and send email, I guess
18:26:24 [Conrad]
ACTION peter: post survey on April FTF dates.
18:26:36 [Uli]
0 on the dates
18:26:47 [alanr]
0?
18:27:11 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
18:27:11 [Zakim]
pfps should now be muted
18:27:19 [Uli]
0= i am not sure yet, but i am afraid that i won't be able to make them
18:27:26 [sandro]
ACTION: peter to make wiki page to get feedback on dates for F2F2, and send e-mail about it.
18:27:26 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-16 - Make wiki page to get feedback on dates for F2F2, and send e-mail about it. [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2007-11-21].
18:27:35 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
18:27:35 [Zakim]
pfps should no longer be muted
18:27:56 [pfps]
+1 to accept :-)
18:28:08 [bijan]
+1 to accept
18:28:17 [jeremy]
Zakim, unmute me
18:28:17 [Zakim]
jeremy should no longer be muted
18:28:19 [MikeSmith]
+1 to accept editorial issues (6,7,27,33,37)
18:28:25 [Ratnesh]
+1 to accept
18:28:25 [Conrad]
Alan surveys on accepting five issues in agenda
18:28:28 [jeremy]
+1
18:28:35 [jeremy]
Zakim, mute me
18:28:35 [Zakim]
jeremy should now be muted
18:28:36 [MartinD]
+1
18:28:38 [pfps]
s/accept/close/
18:28:39 [DougL]
+1 to accept editorial issues (6,7,27,33,37)
18:28:45 [alanr]
ZAKIM, who is on the call?
18:28:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Carsten (muted), Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted), MikeSmith, pfps, Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD (muted), jeremy (muted), ratnesh
18:28:52 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
18:28:52 [Zakim]
pfps should now be muted
18:28:56 [jeremy]
(I have fixed scribe conventions page wrt :)
18:29:00 [Uli]
+1
18:29:05 [jeremy]
wrt colon)
18:29:40 [Conrad]
Resolved: Close issues 6,7,27,33,37 based on Peter's changes.
18:30:29 [Conrad]
Topic: Datatype issues not in n-ary discussion
18:30:43 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/29
18:31:12 [jeremy]
q+
18:31:13 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
18:31:13 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
18:31:16 [bijan]
q+
18:31:17 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
18:31:17 [Zakim]
pfps should no longer be muted
18:31:32 [jeremy]
I do
18:32:01 [jeremy]
ack me
18:32:26 [alanr]
ack pfps
18:32:32 [alanr]
q?
18:32:42 [Uli]
...jeremy, i can barely understand you, you sound "muffled"?
18:33:05 [bijan]
Really?!?!?
18:33:18 [bijan]
What part of the rdf document forbids that?
18:33:36 [jeremy]
ACTION jeremy to show why rdfs:datatype and owl:DataRange are different
18:33:58 [Conrad]
Action: jeremy to show why rdfs:datatype and owl:DataRange are different
18:33:58 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - jeremy
18:34:27 [DougL]
Someone has their mike on, and it's causing a delayed feedback... please turn it off
18:35:16 [sandro]
jeremy, could you please mute, due to echo?
18:35:25 [jeremy]
Zakim, mute me
18:35:25 [Zakim]
jeremy should now be muted
18:35:27 [DougL]
or switch to nonspeakerphone
18:35:35 [DougL]
thanks
18:35:38 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
18:35:38 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
18:35:52 [jeremy]
(feel free to mute me on my behalf if I forget)
18:35:55 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
18:35:55 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
18:36:44 [Conrad]
Bijan: Using XML Schema's namespace requires doing in a way they can accept. In particular, need approval for using their namespace.
18:38:00 [Conrad]
Bijan: A URI is different from a qualified name. Only true in RDF land.
18:38:20 [sandro]
Bijan: A qname is *not* an abbreviation for a URI. It is a pair.
18:38:48 [sandro]
Bijan: Concatenation is sanction by the RDF specs, for use in RDF -- but not widely accepted in XML.
18:39:25 [jeremy]
+1 to giving XML Schema WG some say
18:39:30 [sandro]
Bijan: If we're introducing an alternative serialization for XSD definitions, then XML Schema WG should be involved.
18:40:19 [sandro]
Alan: One issue is polutiong (squatting) a namespace. Another is using a term the namespace publisher has defined.
18:40:41 [sandro]
Peter: Yes, but XSD-WG did not define minInclusive, etc, as being in this namespace.
18:41:00 [alanr]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/0043.html
18:41:47 [Conrad]
Bijan: Can't use existing element as attribute or vice-versa.
18:42:01 [sandro]
Bijan: I think there's a syntax issue here, too, eg using minInclusive as an attribute when it's defined as an element, or some such.
18:42:32 [Conrad]
Bijan; You can derive a URI from a qname, but the XML WG might not approve of the URI.
18:42:50 [alanr]
even if they have defined the qname and used it
18:43:19 [pfps]
there is a tag issue on this http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#rdfmsQnameUriMapping-6
18:44:12 [alanr]
Mike Smith is Liason to the XML Schema working group
18:44:16 [Carsten]
After the discussion we had on of n-ary datatypes, I actually believe that using XML Schema for defining
18:44:17 [Carsten]
datatypes is a very bad idea in general, i.e., *also for unary datatypes*. I am not sure, though, whether it
18:44:19 [Carsten]
makes sense to bring this up now. I will write a mail.
18:44:52 [Conrad]
Action: Mike to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG
18:44:52 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike
18:45:10 [Conrad]
Action: MikeSmith to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG
18:45:10 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - MikeSmith
18:45:42 [bijan]
I can't find the translation to RDF of the datatype facets
18:46:15 [sandro]
Action: Smith to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG
18:46:15 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-17 - Take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG [on Michael Smith - due 2007-11-21].
18:46:22 [jeremy]
fine
18:46:37 [bijan]
Ah, table 5
18:46:50 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
18:46:50 [Zakim]
pfps should now be muted
18:46:59 [Conrad]
Action: Jeremy to edit issue 29 to deal with RDFS data type
18:46:59 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Jeremy
18:47:24 [alanr]
mike will spawn new issue, jeremy will add note to issue 29 saying it it narrower
18:47:42 [Conrad]
Topic: Issue 31
18:47:48 [sandro]
Action: Carroll to edit issue 29 to deal with RDFS data type
18:47:48 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Carroll
18:47:58 [jeremy]
Zakim, unmute me
18:47:58 [Zakim]
jeremy should no longer be muted
18:48:01 [sandro]
trackbot-ng, list users
18:48:08 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
18:48:08 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
18:48:17 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
18:48:17 [Zakim]
pfps was already muted, pfps
18:48:17 [sandro]
trackbot-ng, help
18:48:17 [trackbot-ng]
See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link)
18:48:23 [bijan]
Did XML schema ever finish component designators?
18:48:55 [sandro]
trackbot-ng, status
18:49:10 [bijan]
q+
18:49:15 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
18:49:15 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
18:49:19 [Uli]
jeremy, i still can't understand you
18:49:41 [bijan]
q-
18:49:46 [bijan]
q+ to say we should pick a winner
18:49:52 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
18:49:52 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
18:49:54 [jeremy]
Zakim, mute me
18:49:54 [Zakim]
jeremy should now be muted
18:50:39 [jeremy]
Zakim, unmute me
18:50:39 [Zakim]
jeremy should no longer be muted
18:50:43 [Conrad]
Alan: We can define datatypes in XML, and if we lefft everything alone, could import documents with XML datatypes. WOuld be annoying because of one file per datatype.
18:50:52 [Uli]
it's an option, but do we need to take their semantics?
18:50:53 [ewallace]
datatypes could be defined in one document
18:51:15 [Conrad]
Jeremy: Can put multiple datatypes on same file with different ID's.
18:51:23 [Uli]
i.e., do we need to take the XSD semantics as well if we use their datatypes?
18:51:27 [pfps]
yes, that would assume that we take the XSD semantics - of course, we could restrict the allowable syntax (I guess)
18:51:30 [bijan]
WE already do :)
18:51:55 [bijan]
perhaps the liaison should ask
18:52:05 [bijan]
I'm on the queue
18:52:15 [jeremy]
Zakim, mute me
18:52:15 [Zakim]
jeremy should now be muted
18:52:24 [bijan]
ack me
18:52:25 [Zakim]
bijan, you wanted to say we should pick a winner
18:52:36 [alanr]
q?
18:54:10 [ewallace]
-1 on not allowing use of outside defined xml datatypes if we are using the syntax
18:54:32 [jeremy]
yes, I agree with Bijan too
18:54:39 [pfps]
I don't see much need to either point to external XSD documents or reuse the XSD syntax
18:54:44 [Conrad]
Bijan: Need both inlining and referencing datatypes.
18:55:09 [jeremy]
q+ to suggest way forward
18:55:17 [ewallace]
if we use the XML syntax people are going to expect to be able to reuse XML datatypes
18:55:21 [pfps]
If we do use the XSD syntax, then there is no reason not to allow pointing to external XSD documents
18:55:46 [jeremy]
ack me
18:55:47 [Zakim]
jeremy, you wanted to suggest way forward
18:56:07 [Conrad]
Bijan: WOuld rather have one way of referencing datatypes.
18:56:11 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
18:56:11 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
18:56:33 [Conrad]
Jeremy: Final document does have one way (picks a winner).
18:57:14 [alanr]
q+
18:57:32 [bijan]
-1 to not solving it even if XML Schema fails
18:58:09 [Conrad]
Alan: Would be good to settle ourrequirements on this.
18:58:34 [pfps]
it's not that we don't need the datatypes, it's that I don't think that we *need* the syntax
18:58:44 [jeremy]
Zakim, unmute me
18:58:44 [Zakim]
jeremy was not muted, jeremy
18:58:45 [Conrad]
Alan: Heard four opinions on requirements so far.
18:58:48 [jeremy]
Zakim, mute me
18:58:48 [Zakim]
jeremy should now be muted
18:58:51 [bijan]
Submission doesn't make a choice
18:59:01 [pfps]
no mechanism for datatype import in OWL 1.1
18:59:23 [ewallace]
No.
18:59:23 [Conrad]
Peter: No mechanism for datatype import in the member submission.
18:59:26 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
18:59:26 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
18:59:32 [jeremy]
I think the BP WG Note should be on the table
18:59:58 [ewallace]
q+
19:00:07 [alanr]
ack alanr
19:00:12 [Conrad]
Alan; Any objection to discussion on email on requirements?
19:00:19 [jeremy]
jena uses that too
19:00:33 [jeremy]
(that = DAML+OIL soln as documented in SWBP WG Note)
19:00:38 [Conrad]
Bijan: No bias in sub mission against importing.
19:00:42 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
19:00:42 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
19:01:16 [Conrad]
Evan: MIght as well use best practices, otherwise fall bak to inline.
19:01:23 [bijan]
Some is better than none
19:01:50 [pfps]
where is the DAML+OIL solution?
19:01:58 [Conrad]
Alan: Agreement to discuss on mailing list?
19:02:03 [jeremy]
In a version of BP note, maybe one before last
19:02:16 [bijan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-swbp-xsch-datatypes-20050427/#sec-daml-soln
19:02:22 [jeremy]
q+ to note status
19:02:28 [jeremy]
ack me
19:02:30 [Zakim]
jeremy, you wanted to note status
19:02:37 [ewallace]
q-
19:02:40 [Conrad]
Action: Mike to lead discussion on this.
19:02:40 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike
19:03:09 [MikeSmith]
conrad, I think it will work if you use Smith
19:03:25 [bijan]
I would rather datatype identification be in a spec, near the inline syntax for user defined datatype, but that's fine
19:03:41 [alanr]
q+
19:03:45 [alanr]
q-
19:03:55 [bijan]
+1 to getting info from XML Schema WG
19:03:59 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
19:03:59 [Zakim]
bijan was already muted, bijan
19:04:05 [Conrad]
Mike, I tried that earlier.
19:04:13 [jeremy]
Zakim, mute me
19:04:13 [Zakim]
jeremy should now be muted
19:04:20 [ewallace]
some bits of the issues Jeremy has brought up with n-ary datatype are also in the BP note
19:05:23 [ewallace]
so this needs to be reviewed before this were to be published by us
19:05:51 [ewallace]
I would like to be included in the datatypes discussion group
19:05:54 [bijan]
What about XML SCheam syntax?
19:06:07 [jeremy]
(I think I am done, but I am happy for others to continue)
19:06:19 [jeremy]
no opinion
19:06:23 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
19:06:23 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
19:06:28 [Conrad]
Clarification of Mike's last action: to convene half-hour telecon on data types issue
19:06:30 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
19:06:30 [Zakim]
pfps was already muted, pfps
19:06:35 [Uli]
I would like to be included in the datatype sub-group discussion, too
19:06:51 [Conrad]
Alan scribing
19:06:55 [Zakim]
-Conrad
19:07:19 [pfps]
zakim, mute me
19:07:19 [Zakim]
pfps was already muted, pfps
19:07:37 [Carsten]
I would also like to be in the datatype group
19:07:41 [Zakim]
-jeremy
19:07:58 [alanr]
topic: Ontology elements.
19:08:22 [alanr]
suggested in the xml syntax have a mandatory uri on the ontology
19:08:28 [MikeSmith]
for xml schema discussion, I will use the minutes to co-ordinate info, if anyone else wants to be include, be sure to chime in here
19:08:32 [pfps]
what happens with local names if you don't have an ontology name?
19:08:34 [alanr]
relax that proposition
19:08:55 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
19:08:55 [Zakim]
pfps should no longer be muted
19:09:51 [pfps]
ah, right, currently in OWL 1.1 there are no relative IRIs
19:11:15 [sandro]
(sorry, do we have a scribe...?)
19:11:23 [bijan]
No
19:11:40 [sandro]
scribenick: alan
19:12:07 [alanr]
alan raises imports processing issues in relations
19:12:25 [sandro]
Bijan: Tools should not use the Ontology Name to check for inclusion cycles.
19:12:30 [Zakim]
-MartinD
19:12:35 [sandro]
Alan: but protege-4 does that.
19:12:45 [MartinD]
MartinD has left #OWL
19:12:45 [sandro]
Bijan: I think that's a bug
19:12:59 [sandro]
Alan: Matthew believes it's right, I think....
19:13:35 [sandro]
Alan: And it's not that he's confused. He's sure his approach is right.
19:14:03 [sandro]
Alan: If this issue can proceed independently, something something something.
19:14:23 [sandro]
Bijan: Definition of ontology closure can be separated from ontology naming.
19:14:27 [alanr]
the basic issue is what happens when you say owl:imports "foo"
19:14:52 [sandro]
Bijan: We could just use XML Include, and things would come out pretty much the same.
19:15:27 [sandro]
Bijan: If nothing else is different other than the ontology name.... I don't know what one would make of that.
19:15:46 [sandro]
Bijan: Import closure reaches a fixpoint when doing more imports doesn't add anything.
19:16:14 [sandro]
Alan: Your defining an import-processing-model, calling in 'include', in which the ontology name doesn't matter.
19:16:17 [pfps]
in OWL 1.0 the ontology name doesn't matter
19:16:26 [pfps]
in OWL 1.1 the ontology name does matter
19:16:32 [pfps]
zakim, unmute me
19:16:32 [Zakim]
pfps was not muted, pfps
19:16:54 [sandro]
Peter: in 1.0 import is defined completely independently of ontology names.
19:17:13 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
19:17:13 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
19:17:15 [bijan]
REALLY!?!??!!
19:17:21 [sandro]
Peter: in 1.1, it's completely different. [ some O....O' definition ]
19:17:24 [bijan]
Omg, OWL 1.1 is broken there
19:17:42 [sandro]
Alan: If one wants to sign the ontology, ....
19:17:48 [sandro]
Zakim, who is here?
19:17:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Carsten (muted), Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted), MikeSmith, pfps, Doug, Evan_Wallace, ratnesh
19:17:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pfps, jeremy, Uli, sandro, Ratnesh, RRSAgent, Zakim, MikeSmith, DougL, alanr, Carsten, Conrad, ewallace, bijan, trackbot-ng
19:17:52 [bijan]
"""An ontology O directly imports an ontology O' if O contains an import declaration whose value is the ontology URI of O'."""
19:18:10 [sandro]
Peter: I'm not saying what it should be, I'm saying what 1.1 says.
19:18:10 [bijan]
I see why matthew was confused
19:18:22 [bijan]
Because OWL 1.1 got it wrong :)
19:18:43 [sandro]
Let's deprecate owl:imports!!!!!!!!!!
19:19:00 [bijan]
+1 to xml:include
19:19:02 [bijan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-semantics/direct.html#3.4
19:19:18 [bijan]
Aside from this local meaning, an owl:imports annotation also imports the contents of another OWL ontology into the current ontology. The imported ontology is the one, if any, that has as name the argument of the imports construct. (This treatment of imports is divorced from Web issues. The intended use of names for OWL ontologies is to make the name be the location of the ontology on the Web, but this is outside of this formal treatment.)
19:19:28 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
19:19:28 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
19:19:31 [sandro]
Alan: there is a requirement from users that people be able to sign their ontologies, include metadata, include versioning, ....
19:19:38 [ewallace]
Alan notes a common requirement to annotate ontologies with metadata such as author
19:19:55 [sandro]
Bijan: The 1.1 defn is a bug because it's less-liberal than 1.0, so it's not backward compatible.
19:20:18 [sandro]
MikeSmith, when you use "/me" like that, it's left out of the IRC log.
19:20:24 [pfps]
an email on problems with OWL 1.0 imports would be useful
19:21:04 [sandro]
Bijan: I think we should align the current specs with OWL 1.1
19:21:25 [sandro]
Bijan: ... and then think about a deeper redesign, eg using XML Include.
19:21:35 [ewallace]
Alan proposes a breakout session at F2F1 where we can meet with Alan Rector, etc and talk about reqs
19:21:38 [sandro]
Alan: I don't know anyone who like owl:import as is.
19:21:57 [ewallace]
and possible designs to address them
19:21:59 [MikeSmith]
I note (to be logged) that xml:include may be a path to datatype import as well. Something to revisit.
19:22:20 [Uli]
sounds good
19:22:52 [alanr]
Action: Alan to brain dump on owl imports issue to mailing list
19:22:52 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-18 - Brain dump on owl imports issue to mailing list [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-11-21].
19:23:20 [sandro]
Peter: should rich annotations be on the agenda at F2F1?
19:23:40 [bijan]
I believe alan rector is only available on the first day, but I shall check
19:23:57 [bijan]
Sean and Matthew are available both days
19:24:00 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
19:24:00 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
19:24:14 [alanr]
Action: Alan to include imports, possibility of annotations as subject for f2f
19:24:14 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-19 - Include imports, possibility of annotations as subject for f2f [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-11-21].
19:24:30 [Zakim]
-Doug
19:24:32 [Zakim]
-MikeSmith
19:24:34 [Zakim]
-bijan
19:24:35 [Zakim]
-Sandro
19:24:36 [sandro]
ADJOURN
19:24:39 [Zakim]
-Evan_Wallace
19:24:44 [Zakim]
-Alan
19:24:50 [alanr]
Sandro, minutes?
19:24:51 [Uli]
bye
19:24:53 [Ratnesh]
Bye
19:24:54 [Zakim]
-Carsten
19:25:00 [ewallace]
rich annotations should be an agenda item on the next telecon
19:25:07 [Zakim]
-ratnesh
19:25:34 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
19:25:35 [Zakim]
Attendees were Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan, pfps, Doug, Evan_Wallace, MikeSmith, MartinD, Carsten, ratnesh, jeremy
19:25:57 [Uli]
Uli has left #owl
19:26:07 [alanr]
rrsagent, please create the minutes
19:26:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-minutes.html alanr
19:26:23 [pfps]
pfps has joined #owl
19:26:36 [alanr]
zakim, set logs world-visible
19:26:36 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'set logs world-visible', alanr
19:26:50 [alanr]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
19:27:19 [alanr]
rrsagent, leave
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
I see 21 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-actions.rdf :
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Sandro will check with Josh about UFDTF zakim setup for tomorrow [1]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-02-26
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Boris to send an email about issue 11 fixed and how to fix issue 28 [2]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-09-31
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Boris to send an email on issue 3 [3]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-09-40
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: pfps to send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED [4]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-09-54
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: peter to send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED [5]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-10-33
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ian to send out email soliciting other proposals for the 2nd f2f [6]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-12-28
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to clean up minutes [7]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-16-50
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Sandro to to explain how to fix red names on wiki pages. [8]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-20-48
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: alan to To upload images. [9]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-22-44
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to upload the rest of the inline images in the Syntax document [10]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-23-18
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: peter to post survey on April FTF dates. [11]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-26-24
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: peter to make wiki page to get feedback on dates for F2F2, and send e-mail about it. [12]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-27-26
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeremy to show why rdfs:datatype and owl:DataRange are different [13]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-33-58
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mike to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG [14]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-44-52
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MikeSmith to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG [15]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-45-10
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Smith to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG [16]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-46-15
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeremy to edit issue 29 to deal with RDFS data type [17]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-46-59
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Carroll to edit issue 29 to deal with RDFS data type [18]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-47-48
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mike to lead discussion on this. [19]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T19-02-40
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to brain dump on owl imports issue to mailing list [20]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T19-22-52
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to include imports, possibility of annotations as subject for f2f [21]
19:27:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T19-24-14