17:55:46 RRSAgent has joined #owl 17:55:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc 17:55:55 wrong bijan: *I* say something 17:56:18 jjc2 has joined #owl 17:56:22 see? 17:56:43 This dodgy connection problem again ... 17:56:55 zakim, mute me 17:56:55 sorry, bijan, I don't know what conference this is 17:57:07 ScribeNick:Conrad 17:57:24 Zakim, this is SW_OWL 17:57:24 ok, jjc2; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM 17:57:39 Zakim, mute bijan 17:57:39 sorry, jjc2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to bijan 17:57:47 trackbot help 17:57:47 jjc has joined #owl 17:57:48 jjc has joined #owl 17:57:48 Zakim, who's on the call? 17:57:48 On the phone I see Conrad, Alan, Sandro, ??P19 17:57:51 akim help 17:57:54 zakim help 17:58:01 Zakim, ??P19 is bijan 17:58:01 +bijan; got it 17:58:04 zakim, this is owl 17:58:04 alanr, this was already SW_OWL()12:00PM 17:58:05 ok, alanr; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM 17:58:07 zakim, this is owl 17:58:07 bijan, this was already SW_OWL()12:00PM 17:58:08 ok, bijan; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM 17:58:25 zakim, mute me 17:58:25 bijan should now be muted 17:58:27 zakim, who is here? 17:58:27 On the phone I see Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted) 17:58:28 On IRC I see jjc, jjc2, RRSAgent, Zakim, MikeSmith, DougL, alanr, Carsten, Conrad, ewallace, MartinD, pfps, bijan, trackbot-ng 17:58:34 can anyone here me? 17:59:07 +MikeSmith_ 17:59:11 +??P27 17:59:13 Carsten, is uli calling it with you? 17:59:22 zakim, ??P27 is me 17:59:22 +pfps; got it 17:59:23 +Doug 17:59:24 +Evan_Wallace 17:59:33 Ratnesh has joined #owl 17:59:51 ratnesh from DERI 18:00:01 +??P35 18:00:04 zakim, ??p35 is me 18:00:04 +MartinD; got it 18:00:41 jjc2 has joined #owl 18:00:42 jjc2 has joined #owl 18:01:11 zakim, mute me 18:01:11 pfps should now be muted 18:01:18 zakim, who is here? 18:01:18 On the phone I see Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted), MikeSmith, pfps (muted), Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD 18:01:20 On IRC I see jjc2, Ratnesh, jjc, RRSAgent, Zakim, MikeSmith, DougL, alanr, Carsten, Conrad, ewallace, MartinD, pfps, bijan, trackbot-ng 18:02:05 sandro has joined #owl 18:02:25 zakim, list attendees 18:02:25 As of this point the attendees have been Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan, pfps, Doug, Evan_Wallace, MikeSmith, MartinD 18:02:26 Action: Sandro will check with Josh about UFDTF zakim setup for tomorrow 18:02:26 Created ACTION-9 - Will check with Josh about UFDTF zakim setup for tomorrow [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-11-21]. 18:02:35 jjc has joined #owl 18:02:35 +??P34 18:02:36 jjc has joined #owl 18:02:46 +??P6 18:02:55 Zakim, ??P6 is me 18:03:06 +jjc; got it 18:03:07 zakim, who is here? 18:03:14 On the phone I see Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted), MikeSmith, pfps (muted), Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD, ??P34, jjc 18:03:26 Zakim, jjc is unknown 18:03:33 Zakim, ??P34 is jjc 18:03:34 On IRC I see jjc, sandro, jjc2, Ratnesh, RRSAgent, Zakim, MikeSmith, DougL, alanr, Carsten, Conrad, ewallace, MartinD, pfps, bijan, trackbot-ng 18:03:41 +unknown; got it 18:03:46 zakim, who is talking? 18:03:47 +jjc; got it 18:04:04 Zakim, mute me 18:04:14 sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Alan (50%), Sandro (4%), jjc (15%) 18:04:16 zakim, who is here? 18:04:18 jjc should now be muted 18:04:22 (the echo went away with jjc muted) 18:04:24 On the phone I see Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted), MikeSmith, pfps (muted), Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD, jjc (muted), unknown 18:04:31 On IRC I see jjc, sandro, jjc2, Ratnesh, RRSAgent, Zakim, MikeSmith, DougL, alanr, Carsten, Conrad, ewallace, MartinD, pfps, bijan, trackbot-ng 18:04:40 +Carsten 18:05:09 zakim, mute me 18:05:09 Carsten should now be muted 18:05:11 Ratnesh, type: "Zakim, unknown is me" 18:05:22 jjc2 has joined #owl 18:05:23 jjc2 has joined #owl 18:05:34 RRSAgent, pointer? 18:05:34 See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-owl-irc#T18-05-34 18:05:44 q+ 18:05:45 unknown is me 18:05:51 zakim, unmute me 18:05:51 pfps should no longer be muted 18:05:59 Ratnesh, you need need the leading "Zakim, " 18:06:09 I had an email about datetypes as well which might be helpful: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Nov/0052.html 18:06:17 q- ??P34 18:06:22 Alan added items to the previoous agenda. 18:06:37 zakim, mute me 18:06:37 pfps should now be muted 18:06:48 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions 18:06:53 Zakim, unknown ia ratnesh 18:06:53 I don't understand 'unknown ia ratnesh', Ratnesh 18:07:10 Zakim, unknown is ratnesh 18:07:10 +ratnesh; got it 18:07:19 zakim, unmute me 18:07:19 pfps should no longer be muted 18:07:22 Uli has joined #owl 18:07:25 zakim, who is here? 18:07:25 On the phone I see Carsten (muted), Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted), MikeSmith, pfps, Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD, jjc (muted), ratnesh 18:07:27 On IRC I see Uli, jjc2, sandro, Ratnesh, RRSAgent, Zakim, MikeSmith, DougL, alanr, Carsten, Conrad, ewallace, MartinD, pfps, bijan, trackbot-ng 18:07:33 jjc has joined #owl 18:07:54 Correction: Alan added items to the previoous minutes. 18:08:03 Here: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.11.07/Minutes#Summary_of_Action_Items 18:08:10 Present: Carsten, Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan, MikeSmith, pfps, Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD, jjc, ratnesh 18:08:18 zakim, make minutes 18:08:18 I don't understand 'make minutes', sandro 18:08:19 jjc has joined #owl 18:08:35 other business - the status of ISSUE-14 18:08:44 RRSAgent, , make minutes 18:08:44 I'm logging. I don't understand ', make minutes', sandro. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:08:54 Discussion of how actionitems from previous action items didn't makte it into previous minutes. 18:09:31 ACTION: Boris to send an email about issue 11 fixed and how to fix issue 28 18:09:31 Created ACTION-10 - Send an email about issue 11 fixed and how to fix issue 28 [on Boris Motik - due 2007-11-21]. 18:09:40 ACTION: Boris to send an email on issue 3 18:09:40 Created ACTION-11 - Send an email on issue 3 [on Boris Motik - due 2007-11-21]. 18:09:54 ACTION: pfps to send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED 18:09:54 Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps 18:10:33 ACTION: peter to send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED 18:10:33 Created ACTION-12 - Send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2007-11-21]. 18:10:37 zakim, mute me 18:10:37 pfps should now be muted 18:12:01 Like: action: ian to send out email soliciting other proposals for the 2nd f2f 18:12:28 ACTION: ian to send out email soliciting other proposals for the 2nd f2f 18:12:28 Created ACTION-13 - Send out email soliciting other proposals for the 2nd f2f [on Ian Horrocks - due 2007-11-21]. 18:13:23 but this email has been sent out? 18:13:53 there are also lots of order issues in last week's minutes and lack of context 18:14:17 Discussion of minutes editing, remove "chit chat", general readability, 20-30 minutes in cleanup. 18:14:47 I suggest we accept the uncleanuped minutes 18:15:06 I mean, is there anything untrue in them? 18:15:13 +1 18:15:14 PROPOSED: accept previous minutes, as is 18:15:14 -1 18:15:17 +1 to accept 18:15:19 +1 18:15:23 +1 18:15:29 +1 18:15:30 +1 to accept previous minutes 18:15:30 +1 18:15:55 status of ISSUES 13 and 14 18:16:00 zakim, unmute me 18:16:00 pfps should no longer be muted 18:16:02 Vote on whether to accept uncleaned up minutes from previously. 18:16:21 Weren't these resolved? 18:16:22 Alan: Peter, is there something damaging about accepting these minutes if we agree future ones will be held to a higher standard? 18:16:23 (I tend to feel that meeting mintues should be unanimous) 18:16:31 +1 18:16:34 I'll side with peter if it makes this easier 18:16:35 agree with Peter 18:16:50 ACTION: Alan to clean up minutes 18:16:50 Created ACTION-14 - Clean up minutes [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-11-21]. 18:17:07 no 18:17:21 proposal rejected 18:17:45 Vote and discussion result: not accept uncleaned up minutes. 18:18:37 jeremy has joined #owl 18:18:51 zakim, mute me 18:18:51 pfps should now be muted 18:19:41 pfps has joined #owl 18:19:51 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/4 18:20:31 zakim, mute me 18:20:31 pfps was already muted, pfps 18:20:48 ACTION Sandro: to explain how to fix red names on wiki pages. 18:21:17 zakim, mute me 18:21:17 MartinD should now be muted 18:21:27 zakim, unmute me 18:21:27 pfps should no longer be muted 18:21:59 Peter notes that the syntax document is still missing all but its first figure 18:22:11 zakim, unmute me 18:22:11 pfps was not muted, pfps 18:22:44 ACTION alan: To upload images. 18:23:18 ACTION: Alan to upload the rest of the inline images in the Syntax document 18:23:18 Created ACTION-15 - Upload the rest of the inline images in the Syntax document [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-11-21]. 18:23:26 zakim, mute me 18:23:26 pfps should now be muted 18:23:37 zakim, unmute me 18:23:37 pfps should no longer be muted 18:23:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Nov/0283.html 18:24:13 Topic: April FTF 18:24:25 zakim, unmute me 18:24:25 pfps was not muted, pfps 18:24:46 Need a survey since most people are not on the call 18:24:51 +1 18:24:56 Agree on the survey 18:24:58 +1 18:25:03 +1 tthese days are fine for me 18:25:12 Alan asks if people can make first wk in April for FTF2 18:25:29 +1 18:25:40 wiki page looks good to me 18:25:43 +1 days are fine 18:25:58 + dates are fine 18:26:20 and send email, I guess 18:26:24 ACTION peter: post survey on April FTF dates. 18:26:36 0 on the dates 18:26:47 0? 18:27:11 zakim, mute me 18:27:11 pfps should now be muted 18:27:19 0= i am not sure yet, but i am afraid that i won't be able to make them 18:27:26 ACTION: peter to make wiki page to get feedback on dates for F2F2, and send e-mail about it. 18:27:26 Created ACTION-16 - Make wiki page to get feedback on dates for F2F2, and send e-mail about it. [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2007-11-21]. 18:27:35 zakim, unmute me 18:27:35 pfps should no longer be muted 18:27:56 +1 to accept :-) 18:28:08 +1 to accept 18:28:17 Zakim, unmute me 18:28:17 jeremy should no longer be muted 18:28:19 +1 to accept editorial issues (6,7,27,33,37) 18:28:25 +1 to accept 18:28:25 Alan surveys on accepting five issues in agenda 18:28:28 +1 18:28:35 Zakim, mute me 18:28:35 jeremy should now be muted 18:28:36 +1 18:28:38 s/accept/close/ 18:28:39 +1 to accept editorial issues (6,7,27,33,37) 18:28:45 ZAKIM, who is on the call? 18:28:45 On the phone I see Carsten (muted), Conrad, Alan, Sandro, bijan (muted), MikeSmith, pfps, Doug, Evan_Wallace, MartinD (muted), jeremy (muted), ratnesh 18:28:52 zakim, mute me 18:28:52 pfps should now be muted 18:28:56 (I have fixed scribe conventions page wrt :) 18:29:00 +1 18:29:05 wrt colon) 18:29:40 Resolved: Close issues 6,7,27,33,37 based on Peter's changes. 18:30:29 Topic: Datatype issues not in n-ary discussion 18:30:43 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/29 18:31:12 q+ 18:31:13 zakim, unmute me 18:31:13 bijan should no longer be muted 18:31:16 q+ 18:31:17 zakim, unmute me 18:31:17 pfps should no longer be muted 18:31:32 I do 18:32:01 ack me 18:32:26 ack pfps 18:32:32 q? 18:32:42 ...jeremy, i can barely understand you, you sound "muffled"? 18:33:05 Really?!?!? 18:33:18 What part of the rdf document forbids that? 18:33:36 ACTION jeremy to show why rdfs:datatype and owl:DataRange are different 18:33:58 Action: jeremy to show why rdfs:datatype and owl:DataRange are different 18:33:58 Sorry, couldn't find user - jeremy 18:34:27 Someone has their mike on, and it's causing a delayed feedback... please turn it off 18:35:16 jeremy, could you please mute, due to echo? 18:35:25 Zakim, mute me 18:35:25 jeremy should now be muted 18:35:27 or switch to nonspeakerphone 18:35:35 thanks 18:35:38 zakim, mute me 18:35:38 bijan should now be muted 18:35:52 (feel free to mute me on my behalf if I forget) 18:35:55 zakim, unmute me 18:35:55 bijan should no longer be muted 18:36:44 Bijan: Using XML Schema's namespace requires doing in a way they can accept. In particular, need approval for using their namespace. 18:38:00 Bijan: A URI is different from a qualified name. Only true in RDF land. 18:38:20 Bijan: A qname is *not* an abbreviation for a URI. It is a pair. 18:38:48 Bijan: Concatenation is sanction by the RDF specs, for use in RDF -- but not widely accepted in XML. 18:39:25 +1 to giving XML Schema WG some say 18:39:30 Bijan: If we're introducing an alternative serialization for XSD definitions, then XML Schema WG should be involved. 18:40:19 Alan: One issue is polutiong (squatting) a namespace. Another is using a term the namespace publisher has defined. 18:40:41 Peter: Yes, but XSD-WG did not define minInclusive, etc, as being in this namespace. 18:41:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/0043.html 18:41:47 Bijan: Can't use existing element as attribute or vice-versa. 18:42:01 Bijan: I think there's a syntax issue here, too, eg using minInclusive as an attribute when it's defined as an element, or some such. 18:42:32 Bijan; You can derive a URI from a qname, but the XML WG might not approve of the URI. 18:42:50 even if they have defined the qname and used it 18:43:19 there is a tag issue on this http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#rdfmsQnameUriMapping-6 18:44:12 Mike Smith is Liason to the XML Schema working group 18:44:16 After the discussion we had on of n-ary datatypes, I actually believe that using XML Schema for defining 18:44:17 datatypes is a very bad idea in general, i.e., *also for unary datatypes*. I am not sure, though, whether it 18:44:19 makes sense to bring this up now. I will write a mail. 18:44:52 Action: Mike to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG 18:44:52 Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike 18:45:10 Action: MikeSmith to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG 18:45:10 Sorry, couldn't find user - MikeSmith 18:45:42 I can't find the translation to RDF of the datatype facets 18:46:15 Action: Smith to take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG 18:46:15 Created ACTION-17 - Take the issue of URI/qname approival from XML WG [on Michael Smith - due 2007-11-21]. 18:46:22 fine 18:46:37 Ah, table 5 18:46:50 zakim, mute me 18:46:50 pfps should now be muted 18:46:59 Action: Jeremy to edit issue 29 to deal with RDFS data type 18:46:59 Sorry, couldn't find user - Jeremy 18:47:24 mike will spawn new issue, jeremy will add note to issue 29 saying it it narrower 18:47:42 Topic: Issue 31 18:47:48 Action: Carroll to edit issue 29 to deal with RDFS data type 18:47:48 Sorry, couldn't find user - Carroll 18:47:58 Zakim, unmute me 18:47:58 jeremy should no longer be muted 18:48:01 trackbot-ng, list users 18:48:08 zakim, mute me 18:48:08 bijan should now be muted 18:48:17 zakim, mute me 18:48:17 pfps was already muted, pfps 18:48:17 trackbot-ng, help 18:48:17 See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link) 18:48:23 Did XML schema ever finish component designators? 18:48:55 trackbot-ng, status 18:49:10 q+ 18:49:15 zakim, unmute me 18:49:15 bijan should no longer be muted 18:49:19 jeremy, i still can't understand you 18:49:41 q- 18:49:46 q+ to say we should pick a winner 18:49:52 zakim, mute me 18:49:52 bijan should now be muted 18:49:54 Zakim, mute me 18:49:54 jeremy should now be muted 18:50:39 Zakim, unmute me 18:50:39 jeremy should no longer be muted 18:50:43 Alan: We can define datatypes in XML, and if we lefft everything alone, could import documents with XML datatypes. WOuld be annoying because of one file per datatype. 18:50:52 it's an option, but do we need to take their semantics? 18:50:53 datatypes could be defined in one document 18:51:15 Jeremy: Can put multiple datatypes on same file with different ID's. 18:51:23 i.e., do we need to take the XSD semantics as well if we use their datatypes? 18:51:27 yes, that would assume that we take the XSD semantics - of course, we could restrict the allowable syntax (I guess) 18:51:30 WE already do :) 18:51:55 perhaps the liaison should ask 18:52:05 I'm on the queue 18:52:15 Zakim, mute me 18:52:15 jeremy should now be muted 18:52:24 ack me 18:52:25 bijan, you wanted to say we should pick a winner 18:52:36 q? 18:54:10 -1 on not allowing use of outside defined xml datatypes if we are using the syntax 18:54:32 yes, I agree with Bijan too 18:54:39 I don't see much need to either point to external XSD documents or reuse the XSD syntax 18:54:44 Bijan: Need both inlining and referencing datatypes. 18:55:09 q+ to suggest way forward 18:55:17 if we use the XML syntax people are going to expect to be able to reuse XML datatypes 18:55:21 If we do use the XSD syntax, then there is no reason not to allow pointing to external XSD documents 18:55:46 ack me 18:55:47 jeremy, you wanted to suggest way forward 18:56:07 Bijan: WOuld rather have one way of referencing datatypes. 18:56:11 zakim, mute me 18:56:11 bijan should now be muted 18:56:33 Jeremy: Final document does have one way (picks a winner). 18:57:14 q+ 18:57:32 -1 to not solving it even if XML Schema fails 18:58:09 Alan: Would be good to settle ourrequirements on this. 18:58:34 it's not that we don't need the datatypes, it's that I don't think that we *need* the syntax 18:58:44 Zakim, unmute me 18:58:44 jeremy was not muted, jeremy 18:58:45 Alan: Heard four opinions on requirements so far. 18:58:48 Zakim, mute me 18:58:48 jeremy should now be muted 18:58:51 Submission doesn't make a choice 18:59:01 no mechanism for datatype import in OWL 1.1 18:59:23 No. 18:59:23 Peter: No mechanism for datatype import in the member submission. 18:59:26 zakim, unmute me 18:59:26 bijan should no longer be muted 18:59:32 I think the BP WG Note should be on the table 18:59:58 q+ 19:00:07 ack alanr 19:00:12 Alan; Any objection to discussion on email on requirements? 19:00:19 jena uses that too 19:00:33 (that = DAML+OIL soln as documented in SWBP WG Note) 19:00:38 Bijan: No bias in sub mission against importing. 19:00:42 zakim, mute me 19:00:42 bijan should now be muted 19:01:16 Evan: MIght as well use best practices, otherwise fall bak to inline. 19:01:23 Some is better than none 19:01:50 where is the DAML+OIL solution? 19:01:58 Alan: Agreement to discuss on mailing list? 19:02:03 In a version of BP note, maybe one before last 19:02:16 http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-swbp-xsch-datatypes-20050427/#sec-daml-soln 19:02:22 q+ to note status 19:02:28 ack me 19:02:30 jeremy, you wanted to note status 19:02:37 q- 19:02:40 Action: Mike to lead discussion on this. 19:02:40 Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike 19:03:09 conrad, I think it will work if you use Smith 19:03:25 I would rather datatype identification be in a spec, near the inline syntax for user defined datatype, but that's fine 19:03:41 q+ 19:03:45 q- 19:03:55 +1 to getting info from XML Schema WG 19:03:59 zakim, mute me 19:03:59 bijan was already muted, bijan 19:04:05 Mike, I tried that earlier. 19:04:13 Zakim, mute me 19:04:13 jeremy should now be muted 19:04:20 some bits of the issues Jeremy has brought up with n-ary datatype are also in the BP note 19:05:23 so this needs to be reviewed before this were to be published by us 19:05:51 I would like to be included in the datatypes discussion group 19:05:54 What about XML SCheam syntax? 19:06:07 (I think I am done, but I am happy for others to continue) 19:06:19 no opinion 19:06:23 zakim, unmute me 19:06:23 bijan should no longer be muted 19:06:28 Clarification of Mike's last action: to convene half-hour telecon on data types issue 19:06:30 zakim, mute me 19:06:30 pfps was already muted, pfps 19:06:35