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06:08:11 <mjs> hello everyone
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13:49:33 <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to move Planet HTML5 off of people.w3.org and onto www.w3.org
13:49:33 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-7 - Move Planet HTML5 off of people.w3.org and onto www.w3.org [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-11-17].
13:51:39 <MikeSmith> Present: Travis, ChrisWilson, DanC, KazuhitoKidachi, MasatakaYakura, Joshue, SeanMedero, JamesGraham
13:51:49 <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
13:51:56 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:51:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
13:52:06 <MikeSmith> oedipus - mornin'
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13:52:34 <MikeSmith> Chair: ChrisWilson, DanC
13:53:00 <MikeSmith> Meeting: November 2007 HTML WG meeting, final day
13:53:38 <mjs> morning, folks
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13:54:14 <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
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13:54:33 <MikeSmith> mjs - ohayou gozaimasu
13:54:42 <MikeSmith> Present+ fantasai
13:54:57 <mjs> hey MikeSmith 
13:55:20 <MikeSmith> mjs - you be down here for Aria discussion or coming later?
13:55:56 <mjs> MikeSmith: I will be heading over shortly, but I'll miss at least the start of ARIA
13:56:22 <MikeSmith> k
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13:58:20 <MikeSmith> Present+ RichSchwerdtfeger
13:58:53 <MikeSmith> Present+ PatrickIon
13:59:02 <MikeSmith> Zakim, status?
13:59:02 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
13:59:51 <MikeSmith> [waiting for a few more people to role in]
14:00:03 <MikeSmith> s/role in/rooooollll in/
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14:01:26 <DanC_lap> Zakim, agenda?
14:01:26 <Zakim> I see 15 items remaining on the agenda:
14:01:27 <Zakim> 6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
14:01:28 <Zakim> 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
14:01:29 <Zakim> 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
14:01:30 <Zakim> 9. data tables [ben]
14:01:31 <Zakim> 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
14:01:33 <Zakim> 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
14:01:35 <Zakim> 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
14:01:37 <Zakim> 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
14:01:39 <Zakim> 18. story telling and test cases [from danc via olivier]
14:01:41 <Zakim> 19. offline support [from mjs via Hixie]
14:01:43 <Zakim> 20. media elements [from mjs via Hixie]
14:01:44 <Zakim> 21. HTML 5 for authors [from karl via Hixie]
14:01:45 <Zakim> 22. aria session [from no lead yet via Hixie]
14:01:46 <Zakim> 23. why are there IMG, VIDEO, EMBED and AUDIO but no TEXT? (Text is one of the most often asked extension for CSS, but it really belongs in HTML, not CSS.) [from Bert]
14:01:48 <Zakim> 24. we should discuss licensing, hosting, making tests, as opposed to EARL [from anne via olivier]
14:01:50 <DanC_lap> Zakim, clear agenda
14:01:50 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:01:56 <MikeSmith> Present+ MichaelCooper
14:01:58 <DanC_lap> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:01:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html DanC_lap
14:02:24 <MikeSmith> Present+ SteveFaulkner
14:02:50 <MikeSmith> mjs - ask Bert ;)
14:02:55 <DanC_lap> I suppose TEXT is called <iframe />
14:03:22 <mjs> from his description it's hard to tell
14:03:28 <MikeSmith> yep
14:03:32 <oedipus> well, for one it follows the logic of the other media-specific elements ad absurdam
14:05:18 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
14:05:37 <MikeSmith> [we hoping to get ChrisL and schepers in ... Michael Cooper going to look for Chris]
14:06:01 <PIon> PIon has joined #html-wg
14:06:32 <anne> Hixie, yt?
14:06:52 <DanC_lap> Topic: ARIA in HTML5
14:07:05 <MikeSmith> [with begin with intro from Rich on ARIA]
14:07:06 <Nick> Nick has joined #html-wg
14:07:27 <MikeSmith> Hi Nick
14:07:27 <DanC_lap> Zakim, remind us in 45 minutes that we planned to finish talking about ARIA after an hour
14:07:27 <Zakim> ok, DanC_lap
14:07:31 <Nick> Nick has left #html-wg
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14:07:46 <MikeSmith> Present+ MikkoHonkala
14:08:28 <anne> <div aria=checkbox aria-checked=true>
14:08:44 <anne> (would be my proposal)
14:08:57 <Rich> <div role="wairole:checkbox" aria-checked="true">
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14:09:50 <Rich> <div role="wairole:checkbox" aria:checked="true">
14:09:53 <anne> wairole: needs to be declared somewhere for Rich example to work (in theory)
14:10:01 <anne> same for aria:
14:10:14 <smedero> Issue Tracker URL: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14
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14:11:50 <anne> http://simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal has a proposal
14:12:07 <anne> it's not up to date with s/role/aria though...
14:12:18 <anne> but that should be easy if we decide to do that
14:13:07 <ChrisWilson> I think that is an intersting discussion for today, imho, anne.
14:16:08 <MikeSmith> Present+ JonathanWatt
14:16:36 <MikeSmith> q?
14:16:43 <DanC_lap> ACTION ChrisW: follow up on aria-hidden="true" support
14:16:52 <fantasai> Anne: Opera has an editor for the aria stuff, Simon Pieters
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14:19:55 <DanC_lap> ACTION Patrick_Ion: follow up on the idea that aria fits in mathml too (test cases/examples would be an ideal outcome)
14:20:04 <MichaelC> q+ to say we may want to communicate cross-W3C to review implications on other host languages
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14:20:54 <DanC_lap> ack mi
14:20:54 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say we may want to communicate cross-W3C to review implications on other host languages
14:22:05 <MikeSmith> Present+ ScottVesey
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14:23:25 <anne> <div aria=checkbox aria-checked=true>
14:23:43 <DanC_lap> tx
14:23:58 <DanC_lap> ACTION DanC: make sure the emacs buffer with ARIA choices gets into the record
14:24:08 <Rich> <div role="wairole:checkbox">
14:24:12 <myakura> the latest xhtml role module draft http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xhtml-role-20071004/
14:24:44 <anne> <div role=checkbox> was also proposed btw
14:25:37 <oedipus> myakura, the latest XHTML2 discussions on role are archived at: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html#item01
14:25:44 <ChrisWilson> anne - it's an extensibility marker, Rich is getting to that.
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14:26:08 <Rich> http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-role
14:26:25 <MikeSmith> Present+ Molly
14:26:34 <DanC_lap> W3C Working Draft 19 October 2007
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14:26:57 <mjs> morning, folks
14:27:16 <ChrisWilson> g'morning maciej
14:27:24 <mjs> hey ChrisWilson 
14:27:44 <MichaelC> action: cooper to discuss UML tools with DanC
14:27:44 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - cooper
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14:28:40 <ChrisWilson> is it freezing cold in this room, or is it just me?
14:29:47 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson - freezing
14:30:04 <MikeSmith> Present+ KevinLawver
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14:31:11 <DanC_lap> RS: 1. do we bring xhtml role attribute into HTML 5?
14:31:54 <DanC_lap> ... 2. have an aria attribute, e.g. ...
14:32:01 <Rich> <div aria="checkbox">
14:32:20 <myakura> @aria for roles, @aria-props for states/properties?
14:32:31 <MichaelC> myakura, yes
14:33:28 <DanC_lap> ACTION Mike: integrate the offline notes into the record
14:33:37 <ChrisWilson> PF group wants XHTML Role module
14:33:56 <anne> The reason for using aria= is that it's consistent with the properties and that role= is already overloaded as general accessibility mechanism
14:34:08 <ChrisWilson> Rich: role is widely used.
14:34:08 <anne> A transition path from role= to aria= is pretty trivial
14:34:33 <oedipus> XHTML Role module makes ARIA possible -- it is an extension built in accordance with the Role Module's extensibility mechanism
14:35:06 <ChrisWilson> Rich: we don't think role is just for accessibility - we think it's a general semantic declaration
14:35:09 <MichaelC> q+
14:35:21 <oedipus> rich++
14:35:26 <ChrisWilson> thanks, Mike
14:35:31 <ChrisWilson> er, MikeSmith
14:35:53 <ChrisWilson> Danc_lap: who's maintaining the test suite
14:36:00 <MikeSmith> [Joshue O'Connor is taking good notes and will e-mail them to me after the session]
14:36:58 <anne> http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/ has tests for the http://simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal proposal
14:37:34 <DanC_lap> (ah... this is familiar)-
14:37:49 <MichaelC> ack me
14:38:08 <DanC_lap> role/                   14-Oct-2007 08:16      -
14:38:35 <MichaelC> action: MichaelC to discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute
14:38:35 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - MichaelC
14:40:05 <MikeSmith> Present+ Maciej
14:40:08 <ChrisWilson> anne: I would think aria (vs role) would restrict the types to just widgets (or things that make sense for accessibility)
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14:40:55 <DanC_lap> I gather Aaron Leventhal and Jon Gunderson do most of the test maintenance
14:41:06 <ChrisWilson> Rich: middleware is using the role attrib for device adaptation
14:41:24 <anne> 1. Consistency with aria-. 2. No clashing with XHTML2
14:41:33 <anne> are my arguments for aria=
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14:41:34 <ChrisWilson> rich: if I have to deal with an aria attribute now, that doesn't make a lot of sense.
14:41:54 <oedipus> danC, there is a table of supported roles at http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications#Landmark_Roles_from_XHTML_role_attribute_module
14:42:14 <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
14:42:14 <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
14:42:14 <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
14:42:16 <ChrisWilson> anne, what's the clash?  I think if we point to the XHTML Role attribute, it's defined the same?
14:42:19 <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
14:42:22 <DanC_lap> "Some but not all of this demonstration will be showing content
14:42:22 <DanC_lap> from our draft test suite." -- Al G. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0265.html
14:42:55 <MikeSmith> ACTION: MichaelC to discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute
14:42:55 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-8 - Discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute [on Michael Cooper - due 2007-11-17].
14:43:04 <oedipus> danC: there is also the Best Practices QA at: http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTests (maintained at that location so could be collaboratively maintained, moinmoin doesn't allow hyperlinks in DT
14:43:09 <DanC_lap> values of what, oedipus ? you might pick somebody else to be your proxy; my attention is mostly used up
14:43:38 <oedipus> danC, just trying to point you to testing materials and data
14:43:41 <MikeSmith> Present+ Schepers
14:43:55 <DanC_lap> so I can look at it later? ok. thanks.
14:44:06 <oedipus> precisely, np
14:45:01 <molly> waves back at DanC and wonders where TBL's guitar is...
14:45:09 <MichaelC> action: MichaelC to discuss UML tools with DanC
14:45:09 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-9 - Discuss UML tools with DanC [on Michael Cooper - due 2007-11-17].
14:45:36 <DanC_lap> tbl took his guitar home after the gig
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14:46:58 <MikeSmith> Present+ HenriSivonen
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14:49:44 <DanC_lap> Zakim, people are starting to talk over each other. stand by to moderate, please.
14:49:44 <Zakim> I don't understand you, DanC_lap
14:49:56 <hsivonen> q+ 
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14:51:21 <DanC_lap> q+ doug
14:51:36 <DanC_lap> ack doug
14:52:00 <ChrisWilson> Present+ Hixie
14:52:00 <hsivonen> Present+ Hixie 
14:52:00 <MikeSmith> Present+ Hixie
14:52:06 <ChrisWilson> heheh.  I win!
14:52:16 <MikeSmith> :)
14:52:25 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:52:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
14:52:28 <Zakim> DanC_lap, you asked to be reminded at this time that we planned to finish talking about ARIA after an hour
14:52:30 <MichaelC> q+ Travis
14:52:45 <MikeSmith> ack Travis
14:52:53 <DanC_lap> ack trackbot-ng 
14:52:55 <DanC_lap> ack trackbot-ng 
14:52:57 <DanC_lap> phspadhf
14:53:22 <ChrisWilson> smedero, don't cross the streams
14:53:51 <MikeSmith> Chair: DanC, ChrisWilson
14:54:36 <DanC_lap> q+ to ask for an example
14:54:38 <DanC_lap> ack hsivonen 
14:54:42 <Rich> q+
14:54:51 <ChrisWilson> q+ to describe how a taxonomy helps turn content into spoken words
14:55:39 <fantasai> Hsivonen points out that XML Schema doesn't provide semantics, it provides a pattern to validate against
14:56:41 <Rich> q?
14:56:44 <DanC_lap> q-
14:56:45 <Rich> q+ Doug
14:56:46 <fantasai> Hsivonen explains that presenting these things requires UI strings, which the schema isn't providing
14:56:50 <Rich> q?
14:57:04 <fantasai> hsivonen: URIs on their own don't give you UI. You have to get the UI from somewhere.
14:57:28 <fantasai> hsivonen: Either the client embodies the UI visually or orally, or it has to build one up somehow.
14:57:53 <fantasai> hsivonen: and URIs don't provide the information necessary to build the UI
14:58:04 <fantasai> hsivonen: They don't provide e.g. localized auditory data
14:58:09 <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to integrate into the Nov. 2007 meeting record the notes that Joshue took during the 2007-11-10 ARIA discussion
14:58:10 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-10 - Integrate into the Nov. 2007 meeting record the notes that Joshue took during the 2007-11-10 ARIA discussion [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-11-17].
14:58:54 <fantasai> hsivonen: Dereferencing the UI won't be giving all the localizations. Instead it is more reasonable to expect localized screen readers to give a localized UI for the widget
14:59:21 <hsivonen> Dereferencing the URI...
14:59:31 <fantasai> Rich asserts that we are limiting ourselves and roles will be valuable in the future.
14:59:42 <oedipus> rich+++
14:59:55 <DanC_lap> (what's the group he meets with?)
15:00:05 <fantasai> Rich: I've had monthly meetings with vendors, and we work with X, Y, and Linux software
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15:00:21 <ChrisWilson> Rich has regular meetings with Freedom Scientific, who own ~80% of the AT market, and others.
15:00:23 <anne> Freedom Scientific would be X
15:00:27 <DanC_lap> tx, cW
15:01:02 <fantasai> Rich: The vehicle that is currently provided in the role attribute allows you to separate out .. taxonomies.
15:01:12 <ChrisWilson> q?
15:01:23 <MichaelC> note that 80% of the market is of the North American market; we should reach out to AT vendors internationally as well
15:01:37 <fantasai> Maciej: I'm not willing to take on faith that role attributes and taxonomies will result in a usable UI
15:01:58 <hsivonen> q+
15:02:02 <Rich> q?
15:02:03 <fantasai> Maciej: I want to see a concrete example.
15:02:05 <Rich> ack Rich
15:02:07 <DanC_lap> ack Rich 
15:02:10 <DanC_lap> ack ChrisWilson 
15:02:10 <Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to describe how a taxonomy helps turn content into spoken words
15:02:13 <MikeSmith> some comments from Chris Lilley:
15:02:14 <MikeSmith> [[
15:02:20 <MikeSmith> In terms of the SVG position, SVG can use the aria attributes as currently specified (ie, namespaced) with no problem and with no change to the specification at all. The SVG spec already covers what to do with unknown qualified attributes on SVG elements.
15:02:20 <MikeSmith> It could also, as a second-best option, use them un-namespaced if they were added to the svg specification.
15:02:20 <MikeSmith> We do have a problem with the xhtml modularisation requirements (need to use their dtd structure etc which seems unnecessary and largely orthogonal to what content or viewers/browsers do) but I have an action to talk to Steven about that and report back to WAI PF.
15:02:25 <MikeSmith> ]]
15:02:34 <jgraham_> We're being asked to accept a lot of complexity now on the assertion that there may be a problem to solve in the future
15:03:02 <PIon> Use case descriptions, or pointers to them, would be rather helpful.
15:03:03 <MikeSmith> Present+ Bert
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15:03:34 <Rich> q+ Rich
15:03:43 <mjs> q+
15:03:51 <DanC_lap> (I note the scheduled time is up, and I'm hearing a requirements discussion, which is the next thing... break, anyone, or just carry on ?)
15:04:02 <DanC_lap> (... with a new Topic: for the record?)
15:04:05 <mjs> I would like a break at some point
15:04:10 <Rich> q?
15:04:13 <MikeSmith> Present+ DavidBaron
15:04:20 <fantasai> Anne: The role attribute is overloaded. We'd be using it for ARIA accessibility, but other groups will want to use it for other things, e.g. microformats.
15:04:21 <mjs> but I am not sure this topic is usefully over
15:04:21 <DanC_lap> ack doug
15:04:27 <DanC_lap> Zakim, close the queue
15:04:27 <Zakim> ok, DanC_lap, the speaker queue is closed
15:04:44 <fantasai> Anne: How do we know when to use the low-level accessibility APIs and when to just leave the strings in the document?
15:04:58 <DanC_lap> (continue for 30 more minutes on this topic? 15? 20?)
15:05:23 <ChrisWilson> DanC_lap, I think we should continue for no more than 15, and take a break.
15:05:27 <DanC_lap> ack hsivonen 
15:05:33 <DanC_lap> oops
15:05:34 <Rich> q?
15:05:36 <mjs> q-
15:05:48 <ChrisWilson> Our other option is to break right now and come back for 20+ minutes.
15:05:53 <DanC_lap> Zakim, remind us in 15 minutes to take a break
15:05:53 <Zakim> ok, DanC_lap
15:06:20 <anne> So I don't want to implement technology X and Y based on the same attribute
15:06:24 <Rich> q?
15:06:33 <anne> We tried that for a single element and it failed horribly already
15:06:42 <anne> <object>
15:06:53 <anne> <i> <object>
15:07:04 <ChrisWilson> zakim, open the q
15:07:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'open the q', ChrisWilson
15:07:04 <Rich> q?
15:07:12 <ChrisWilson> zakim, open q
15:07:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'open q', ChrisWilson
15:07:13 <MikeSmith> Zakim, open the queue
15:07:14 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith, the speaker queue is open
15:07:32 <ChrisWilson> oh sure, make me spell.  :)
15:07:45 <fantasai> Hsivonen: An example of ... taxonomy ... is the type attribute on <input>
15:08:12 <fantasai> Hsivonen: The way the UA generates UI isn't by generating anything, but instead it has code that knows already about these types
15:08:41 <fantasai> DanC: Did you hear the point that the accessibility UIs was created by picking the brains of 80% of the accessibility vendors?
15:09:38 <Rich> DS: considering that authors will use this in unexpected ways, is it realistic to limit the possible values? it might be better to design it to be more flexible anticipating that use?
15:09:43 <fantasai> DanC: The way you dereference the URIs is that you write code, like the code hsivonen was saying. You don't dereference it and build something on the fly.
15:09:54 <fantasai> Anne: So why not just use a simple string?
15:09:58 <mjs> q+
15:10:07 <fantasai> Anne: The role attribute has a URI-based syntax
15:10:26 <anne> <div xmlns:wairole="..." role="wairole:something">
15:11:25 <anne> versus <div aria="something">
15:12:05 <fantasai> Hsivonen: I don't see how URI-based syntax helps in that case: the UA still has to recognize the token and have already built UI to use it
15:12:32 <fantasai> DanC points to Anne's examples.
15:12:40 <mjs> q-
15:12:51 <fantasai> DanC: So here we have another example of ugly namespaces getting in the way.
15:13:06 <Rich> ACTION: DanC to show how <div aria="something"> works with URI based extensibility
15:13:06 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-11 - Show how <div aria=\"something\"> works with URI based extensibility [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-17].
15:13:13 <fantasai> DanC: If we map aria="something" to the wiarole stuff, we have the same information
15:13:16 <Hixie> mjs: you can tell zakim your point, as in "q+ to say something"
15:13:24 <ChrisWilson> ack rich
15:14:01 <mjs> q+
15:14:06 <mjs> q-
15:14:31 <fantasai> break
15:16:37 <MikeSmith> Present+ JustinThorp
15:16:54 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:16:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:18:32 <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:18:32 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)21:03Z has not yet started, matt
15:18:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see dbaron, justin, KevinLawver, Dennis, mjs, molly, shepazu, jwatt, matt, mikko_honkala, MichaelC, PIon, anne, DanC_lap, ChrisWilson, Rich, smedero, fantasai, jgraham_,
15:18:37 <Zakim> ... myakura, gavin, kazuhito, MikeSmith, tH, drry, ROBOd, Shunsuke, Lachy__, jmb, paullewis, hasather, gorm, Lachy, xover, anthony, Bert, Philip, Zakim, oedipus, Hixie, heycam,
15:18:41 <Zakim> ... laplink, bogi, gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu, RRSAgent
15:20:01 <MikeSmith> Present+ BenMillard
15:20:53 <Zakim> DanC_lap, you asked to be reminded at this time to take a break
15:26:41 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has joined #html-wg
15:32:03 <anne> <ping />
15:32:06 <anne> interesting
15:32:41 <ChrisWilson> ...I think Dan means <a href="..." ping="...">.
15:32:59 <ChrisWilson> and pingref?  Haven't re-read that section thoroughly lately
15:33:26 <ed_> ed_ has joined #html-wg
15:33:47 <smedero> oedipus: no problem.
15:36:27 <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest we need a scribe
15:36:45 <plinss> plinss has joined #html-wg
15:37:07 <MikeSmith> Present+ PeterLinss
15:37:36 <anne> http://www.whatwg.org/html5
15:37:47 <jgraham_> full version: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
15:38:35 <MikeSmith> ACTION: DanC to make sure the alternate URL for the spec is in the Nov. 2007 meeting record
15:38:36 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-12 - Make sure the alternate URL for the spec is in the Nov. 2007 meeting record [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-17].
15:38:47 <jgraham_> other multipage link: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
15:39:46 <glazou> glazou has joined #html-wg
15:39:53 <glazou> Hixie: ping
15:40:01 <MikeSmith> Present+ Chaals
15:40:15 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg
15:40:17 <MikeSmith> Scribenick: chaals
15:40:25 <MikeSmith> Scribe: Chaals
15:40:36 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:40:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:40:39 <chaals> Topic: huh?
15:40:58 <chaals> s/huh?/scope and schedule/
15:41:05 <Hixie> glazou: pong
15:41:12 <MikeSmith> Present+ DanielGlazman
15:41:13 <anne> Topic: rel= ownership
15:41:19 <chaals> Present+ chaals
15:41:28 <jwatt_> jwatt_ has joined #html-wg
15:41:33 <chaals> DC: We had Extensibility discussion...
15:41:45 <Lachy> Present+ LachlanHunt_IRC_only
15:42:09 <chaals> IH: HTML5 currently has wiki link to define new rel values, plus some from HTML4
15:42:25 <MikeSmith> q?
15:42:34 <MikeSmith> q-
15:42:34 <chaals> DC: Seems the community is happy with this. Question is which wiki...
15:43:00 <chaals> ... if rel value wiki was microformats.org I could write an official liaison
15:43:13 <chaals> AvK: We would like something that validators could query etc - some API
15:43:21 <chaals> DC: agree
15:43:24 <MikeSmith> Present+ EricDahlström
15:43:35 <chaals> s/Eric/Erik/
15:44:26 <ChrisWilson> kevinLawver, to test/validate/know what we need to support.
15:44:28 <anne> Basically a Web service where you can easily add new values, revise existing values (from proposal to approved, etc., updating spec pointers), and also a way to get all values in some easy parsable format
15:44:33 <chaals> ... dealing with microformats.org is easier than eg IANA
15:44:58 <KevinLawver> Are we then going to set a defined set of allowed classes and id's as well?
15:45:03 <chaals> CW: Think we need something better than just a wiki
15:45:09 <fantasai> Maciej: I think microformats.org hosting the registry is fine, don't mind either way
15:45:12 <MikeSmith> Present+ MarcosCaceres
15:45:17 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:45:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:45:21 <chaals> MH: You want soething to bring µformats committee closer to W3C
15:45:25 <anne> KevinLawver, classes and IDs are not "global" I think
15:45:36 <chaals> DC: Right now they are peers, so bringing them closer would be good.
15:45:41 <fantasai> DanC: We can say that microformats.org's process is reasonable and have the W3C officially endorse microformats.org
15:45:45 <ChrisWilson> classes and ids are knowingly unbounded.
15:45:52 <MikeSmith> present- Chaals
15:45:54 <ChrisWilson> rel is bounded by interoperability.
15:45:54 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:45:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:45:55 <MichaelC> q+ to say a subset of microformat approaches creates accessibility problems; W3C endorsement would need resolution of those issues
15:46:02 <ChrisWilson> (today, that is)
15:46:10 <fantasai> Molly: If you're saying they have to come in as members, that's a problem.
15:46:13 <chaals> MH: If they had to come in as members that would be a problem...
15:46:15 <fantasai> DanC: That's not what I meant.
15:46:17 <gsnedders> Present+ GeoffreySneddon_IRC_Only
15:46:29 <chaals> scribe: fantasai
15:46:34 <ChrisWilson> q?
15:46:35 <fantasai> DanC: They have their own process
15:46:36 <chaals> scribeNick: fantasai
15:46:52 <fantasai> DanC: We can write it up and explain it to the W3C hand set up an official liaison etc
15:46:57 <fantasai> Molly: What does Tantek think?
15:47:02 <fantasai> DanC: Haven't asked him.
15:47:14 <jwatt_> jwatt_ has joined #html-wg
15:47:17 <fantasai> Molly: My experience is that there's a lot of twisting of semantics going on there, it's distressing.
15:47:25 <gsnedders> The issue with moving µformats closer to the W3C is that a lot of the process there is all based around moving quickly — something that is not done here due to burorcarsy
15:47:41 <fantasai> Molly: So one of the things we're doing for best practices is to encourage people not to touch the document too much, to keep the markup pristine.
15:47:46 <gsnedders> s/The issue/Another issue/
15:47:52 <fantasai> Molly: We don't want to go back and touch those documents, especially on large sites.
15:48:09 <fantasai> Molly: With Microformats you're adding a lot of stuff that has to be tracked and formatted.
15:48:17 <fantasai> Molly: And there's not a lot of consistency in their use.
15:48:22 <KevinLawver> zakim, +q kevinlawver, to refute molly's assertion about microformats
15:48:22 <Zakim> I see MichaelC, kevinlawver on the speaker queue
15:49:57 <fantasai> Molly lists criticisms: overuse of class attribute, misappropriation of other attributes like 'title', 
15:49:57 <MikeSmith> q?
15:50:14 <gavin> gavin has joined #html-wg
15:50:46 <gsnedders> Some of the design choices for µf were done because of bugs in UAs like Safari 1.0, which now have very little use. Could those be changed, I wonder
15:51:32 <ChrisWilson> ack MichaelC
15:51:32 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say a subset of microformat approaches creates accessibility problems; W3C endorsement would need resolution of those issues
15:51:42 <dbaron> People shouldn't touch the document for style (perhaps), but microformats are about content, which should be in the document.
15:52:03 <ChrisWilson> MichaelC specifically mentions the title attrib creating accessibility problems
15:52:04 <fantasai> MichaelC: Molly's basically covered me. Microformat's use of the title attribute creates problems for accessibility.
15:52:10 <ChrisWilson> ack kevinLawver
15:52:10 <Zakim> kevinlawver, you wanted to refute molly's assertion about microformats
15:52:46 <fantasai> Kevin: As a member of the micoformats community and someone who's created one, I can see the problem with the title attribute but I think the use of the class attribute is in line
15:53:10 <ChrisWilson> "It's not an argument, it's a discussion.  We only have a few minutes."  cause and effect?
15:53:11 <fantasai> Kevin: Microformats are a guerilla movement to add semantics in places where the HTML spec doesn't have.
15:53:45 <fantasai> Kevin: ...
15:53:48 <tH> tH has joined #html-wg
15:53:53 <fantasai> Kevin: I think microformats can evolve.
15:54:18 <oedipus> GJR notes that PF WG has requested that "title" be added to XHTML Role Module's pre-difined roles:
15:54:18 <oedipus> consult: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0123.html
15:54:25 <fantasai> DanC: Suppose I'm an HTML author and I'm making a shopping list. I chose shopinglist to name my list.
15:54:34 <fantasai> DanC: Life goes on and hShopping goes out and it's all the rage
15:54:59 <fantasai> DanC: Then I realize I've mispelt shoppinglist, fix it, and all of a sudden my list goes green and starts jumping around.
15:55:31 <chaals> [that is my concern...]
15:55:49 <ChrisWilson> KevinLawver: "Then it's your own damn fault for not being on the open web."
15:55:50 <Lachy> DanC, that's absurd. The default presentation of any new microformat isn't going to be that detrimental
15:56:13 <fantasai> Kevin explains microformats methodology and how existing use is examined and e.g. names like vevent are chosen over event.
15:56:18 <fantasai> Move to table argument.
15:56:27 <fantasai> Molly: What's the goal?
15:56:41 <ChrisWilson> Lachy, I'm not sure I agree with that; I do agree that it's not a major problem (yet).
15:56:45 <fantasai> DanC: You mentioned concerns about class, I have to understand that to write it up.
15:57:13 <Lachy> I wonder, with any existing uf, has the default presentation in any UA caused any such problems?
15:57:18 <chaals> fantasai: Some stuff on µformats is better than other stuff...
15:57:41 <fantasai> fantasai: W3C shouldn't be vetting everything that gets put up
15:57:45 <molly> my concern is not in the use of class, but in the overuse of class within large document management situations. Who maintains the documentation? How do you manage organic growth with so many classes in a document, etc.
15:57:52 <Lachy> I suspect the answer is no and that Dan is just making up a problem that doesn't actually exist
15:58:20 <KevinLawver> I think we table this until we can get tantek or some other microformats "luminary" explain the process.
15:58:30 <Hixie> q+ to ask what we're pointing at
15:58:33 <fantasai> DanC: This pointer has to be scoped, not generally recommending everything.
15:58:58 <fantasai> Anne explains the whatwg relextension
15:58:59 <Hixie> ack Hixie 
15:58:59 <Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to ask what we're pointing at
15:59:00 <fantasai> page
15:59:15 <anne> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions
15:59:31 <fantasai> Anne: There are proposals and approved extensions. Approved basically means it has gone through the microformats process.
15:59:47 <fantasai> fantasai thinks that system is fine
16:00:44 <hsivonen> q+
16:01:07 <hsivonen> q-
16:01:15 <PIon> DanC; gave example of the author who does class='shoping-list' in pages and in the CSS; then, say, use of 'shoping-list' becomes popular, but the author realizes the mispelling, corrects it on all the written site pages --- and everyone deplores that the popular 'shoping-list' sites elsewhere are broken and confusion with another, perhaps more official, 'shopping-list' value and its uses abounds.
16:01:33 <Hixie> i asked them here: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2007-11-10#T154438
16:01:36 <fantasai> Hixie points to spec that points to whatwg registry
16:01:45 <fantasai> Topic: Canvas
16:02:27 <fantasai> DanC: I contacted SVG group and explained what this was and asked if there were any objections, and I heard none.
16:02:51 <fantasai> DanC: Chris Lilley wrote that there are vector graphics and immediate mode graphics and the world needs both and they can co-exist
16:02:59 <Hixie> "Forms and common UI widgets such as progress bars, datagrids, menus, and other controls."
16:03:05 <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html
16:03:17 <glazou> I really wonder if a wiki page for rel extensions is considered a reliable registry...
16:03:53 <fantasai> if it's only one page, each entry is simple enough that there's almost no editorial editing, and it's being watched, it should be ok
16:04:25 <fantasai> Hixie suggests that <canvas> falls under widgets
16:05:01 <fantasai> s/if it's/<fantasai> if it's/
16:05:35 <fantasai> Maciej: Is it possible to edit the charter without going through the whole charter approval process?
16:05:50 <ChrisWilson> q+
16:05:56 <fantasai> Maciej: That will rathole the whole group.
16:06:01 <fantasai> DanC: No, we can't do that.
16:06:07 <fantasai> Maciej: Then I suggest we don't go there.
16:06:17 <chaals> q+
16:06:20 <anne> [a-z]* would cover that
16:06:21 <chaals> ach chr
16:06:28 <Hixie> q+ calendar
16:06:32 <Hixie> er
16:06:34 <Hixie> q- calendar
16:06:34 <anne> sorry [a-z-]*
16:06:37 <Hixie> q+ hixie for calendar
16:06:39 <chaals> ack cal
16:06:43 <Hixie> q+ hixie to talk about calendar
16:06:53 <fantasai> argument about whether <canvas> is covered in the HTMLWG charter.
16:06:54 <chaals> ack Chr
16:07:06 <fantasai> ChrisW: I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, I'm saying it's not in our charter.
16:07:21 <fantasai> ChrisW: Our lawyers when reviewing this document wouldn't have checked for graphics patents
16:07:22 <MikeSmith> Present+ MauroNunez
16:07:31 <MikeSmith> Present+ PhilippHoschka
16:08:13 <MikeSmith> Present+ TonyGrasso
16:08:24 <Hixie> q- Hixie
16:08:26 <fantasai> DanC: tells Maciej to add Immediate Mode Graphics to the Principles/Requirements issue tracker
16:08:58 <ChrisWilson> q+ to raise David Baron's point about the patent clock starting when a public draft is released.
16:09:02 <chaals> ACTION: Chaals make a proposal to explain how immediate mode graphics is part of HTML
16:09:02 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Chaals
16:09:14 <chaals> ACTION: charles make a proposal to explain how immediate mode graphics is part of HTML
16:09:14 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - charles
16:09:16 <smedero> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/15
16:09:36 <chaals> q-
16:09:36 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
16:10:03 <fantasai> Hixie: <canvas> is an HTML element, is in three browsers, and is one of the most interoperable parts of the HTML5 spec. Why dont' we just put it in? It's in the charter already.
16:10:06 <Lachy> Since <canvas> is so widely used and implemnted by 3 major browsers already, it really needs to be defined somewhere.  And since it's an HTML element, it should be defined in HTML5
16:10:24 <fantasai> DanC tries to mediate between MS and Hixie
16:11:02 <fantasai> Hixie feels that this will be wasting time
16:11:32 <oedipus> Lachy, re canvas remarks, what about SVG in text/html -- is that unrealistic from your perspective?  is canvas sufficient, in competition with, or render redundant SVG in text/html?
16:11:44 <fantasai> Anne: why wasn't this raised when the document was submitted?
16:11:45 <mauro> mauro has joined #html-wg
16:11:48 <fantasai> DanC: It was
16:11:56 <fantasai> Chaals wants a chance to write things up
16:12:17 <fantasai> seems to be some misunderstanding of what was and was not in the charter.
16:12:29 <Lachy> oedipus, I'm ok with eventually developing SVG for use in HTML.  As Dan said earlier, vector graphics and immediate mode graphics can co-exist
16:12:33 <fantasai> Maciej: I believe it was in earlier drafts of the charter, but was edited out later.
16:12:58 <fantasai> DanC: Hixie made a strong point that we should essentially agree that it's in. So we put the question, and 7 days later that would be it. Chris are you ok with that?
16:13:23 <anne> CW: I thought it was in the charter, Chris Lilley thought it was in the charter too
16:13:26 <fantasai> ChrisW: What do you mean
16:13:50 <fantasai> DanC: We agree that it's included in bullet ?
16:14:06 <fantasai> ChrisW: There's no mention of graphics
16:14:29 <fantasai> discussion of patent policy stuff and 150 days from first public working draft or 90 days or something
16:14:46 <fantasai> DanC: The proposal for issue-15, which is more or less a thumbs-up,
16:14:53 <dbaron> Patent policy is at http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-Exclusion
16:14:56 <fantasai> DanC: how long will it take for your lawyers to get back to us?
16:15:16 <dbaron> "Specific Essential Claims may be excluded from the W3C RF licensing requirements by a participant who seeks to remain in the Working Group only if that participant indicates its refusal to license specific claims no later than 150 days after the publication of the first public Working Draft [PROCESS, section 7.4.1] by specifically disclosing Essential Claims that will not be licensed on W3C RF terms."
16:16:14 <glazou> KevinLawver: ?
16:16:39 <glazou> KevinLawver: YGM
16:16:45 <Lachy> Canvas was in the WHATWG draft well before the HTMLWG charter was written. I think it's just a mistake that it wasn't mentioned more explicitly than it is, but that it does fall under widgets
16:16:55 <fantasai> ACTION ChrisW: come back in a month with more information on MS patent review with <canvas> 
16:17:03 <dbaron> "A participant may resign from the Working Group within 90 days after the publication of the first public Working Draft and be excused from all licensing commitments arising out of Working Group participation."
16:17:11 <dbaron> So there are actually both 90 day and 150 day clocks that start at FPWD.
16:17:40 <fantasai> thanks dbaron
16:18:00 <fantasai> 10 min break
16:19:00 <Lachy> it could also fall under editing apis, since it allows for editing of graphics
16:19:14 <molly> Kevin and I have created a new microformat to define robber barons versus fanatics
16:19:30 <molly> we are overusing class
16:19:43 <molly> and I'm thinking about a way to misappropriate the title attribute
16:19:45 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg
16:19:47 <molly> just for fun :D
16:21:56 <dbaron> can I object to the terminology in your new microformat? :-P
16:22:31 <KevinLawver> You can, dbaron, but that will probably put you firmly in one of the two buckets.
16:23:00 <anne> I suggest you use <abbr> in weird ways too
16:23:45 <mjs> dbaron: I see, so you have a 90-day clock to quit with no obligation, and a 150-day clock to claim specific exclusion if you didn't quit
16:26:17 <arun_> arun_ has joined #html-wg
16:27:14 <MikeSmith> Present+ Arun
16:28:05 <mauro> Present+ MauroNunez
16:32:48 <KevinLawver> Seriously, the only really ugly hack in microformats land that i'll admit to is using title with non-human readable dates.  It's ugly, and i think we understand it's ugly - but it's not something that can't be fixed by adding a "value" attribute to HTML5.
16:32:54 <KevinLawver> (or something like it)
16:33:05 <mjs> it's not?
16:33:13 <anne> <i> <object>
16:33:13 <anne> <i> <br> <u>
16:33:13 <mjs> oh
16:33:17 <anne> any other sentences?
16:33:20 <KevinLawver> Sorry, if it is, I haven't gotten to it yet.
16:33:21 <mjs> "not something that can't"
16:33:36 <KevinLawver> I'm new here - I'm still catching up on the mountain o' spec.
16:34:47 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes 
16:34:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:34:51 <Hixie> KevinLawver: we've already fixed that one with <time datetime=>
16:34:55 <Hixie> in html5
16:35:01 <Hixie> and i agree that's the only major issue
16:35:25 <KevinLawver> Sweet, then my work here is done.  Up, up and away!
16:36:03 <smedero> Results of Questionnaire Release "HTML Design Principles" as a W3C Working Draft? - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
16:36:56 <MikeSmith> Present- PhilippHoschka
16:37:23 <MikeSmith> Present- Bert
16:37:43 <fantasai> DanC points the non-responders: This is the problem right here.
16:38:05 <fantasai> ACTION DanC: make sure non-responders are ok with proposal to publish the principles
16:38:16 <anne> DanC: and likewise the spec
16:39:37 <fantasai> ACTION DanC: make sure non-responders are ok with proposal to publish the spec
16:40:01 <tantek> datetime is only one example of a data type which requires different human vs. machine readable information, thus <time datetime=> only solves some cases
16:40:10 <tantek> other examples:
16:40:29 <fantasai> ACTION DanC: put question in issue-15: does the working group want to do <canvas>
16:40:40 <tantek> * geo: e.g. longitude as a decimal (for machines) vs. ° ' " (deg min sec)
16:41:13 <fantasai> Topic: offline applications
16:41:26 <fantasai> DanC: charter doesn't mention SQL
16:41:27 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #html-wg
16:41:33 <fantasai> DanC: We can add an issue
16:41:47 <tantek> * localized labels vs. enumerated set, e.g. tel type of "work"  (enumerated value) vs. "Arbeit:" (label in German)
16:42:12 <fantasai> DanC: It would be more straightforward to publish this as a separate draft. People would sit up and pay attention, since offline app stuff would be its own psec with that in the title.
16:42:51 <chaals> [/me thinks that the relationship to WebAPI is a relevant issue to this topic]
16:43:05 <fantasai> Hixie, Anne: it's pretty tied into everything else.
16:43:55 <fantasai> Hixie suggests having a summary, which can later be used as a tutorial for the spec
16:44:32 <fantasai> Hixie: We need more feedback on this spec anyway
16:45:16 <tantek> got to run - but just wanted to summarize that microformats use of <abbr> is not just for datetimes, but for all situations where there must be a different value presented to computers vs. humans, without making the computer value totally invisible (title attribute permits tooltip inspection at least)
16:45:24 <fantasai> trying to find an editor
16:45:51 <oedipus> GRJ gives a STRONG +1 to chaals' comment on WebAPI
16:46:14 <chaals> s/GRJ/GJR/
16:46:34 <ChrisWilson> [/me I agree with Chaals very much that the relationship with WebAPI is very relevant; vis, I'm not sure why these features are in HTML5 and not within the WebAPI charter.
16:46:48 <fantasai> ACTION Anne and Hixie: draft offline apps intro/tutorial/overview/thing by end of year
16:47:34 <ChrisWilson> q?
16:47:37 <ChrisWilson> ack
16:47:40 <ChrisWilson> ack ChrisWilson
16:47:40 <Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to raise David Baron's point about the patent clock starting when a public draft is released.
16:47:42 <mjs> q>
16:47:46 <chaals> ACTION: Chaals to talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion
16:47:46 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Chaals
16:47:50 <ChrisWilson> yeah, that was a while ago.  :^/
16:48:36 <ChrisWilson> I recognize you, Chaals - you're hard to miss
16:48:41 <fantasai> Topic: Thanks to organizers and participants
16:48:43 <fantasai> RESOLVED
16:49:16 <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
16:49:16 <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
16:49:16 <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
16:49:33 <MikeSmith> chaals, please try that action again
16:50:13 <Hixie> anne: when are you leaving town, btw?
16:50:38 <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status?
16:50:47 <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
16:50:59 <fantasai> meeting closed
16:51:04 <anne> Hixie, my plane leaves at 10PM
16:51:24 <oedipus> GJR thanks all for allowing/permitting/putting-up-with remote participators
16:51:28 <MikeSmith> ACTION: Charles to talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion
16:51:28 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-13 - Talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2007-11-17].
16:52:29 <Hixie> anne: k, wanna work on the the note today?
16:54:26 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has joined #html-wg
16:54:39 <ChrisWilson>  </cwilso>
16:54:48 <MikeSmith> chaals - dunno. 
16:54:51 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has joined #html-wg
16:55:35 <mauro> mauro has left #html-wg
16:55:47 <myakura> thanks everyone.
16:59:52 <Hixie> hixie.ch/www/advocacy/offline-webapps/notes
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17:03:42 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:03:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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