IRC log of xhtml on 2007-11-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:30:50 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
18:31:00 [Steven]
rrsagent, make log public
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Scribe: Steven
18:35:00 [Steven]
Meeting: FtF XHTML2 WG, Cambridge, MA, USA
18:35:07 [Steven]
Chair: Roland
18:35:32 [Steven]
Present: Steven, Rich, Roland, Raman
18:35:48 [Steven]
Topic: Agenda
18:35:56 [Steven]
rrsagent, pointer?
18:35:56 [RRSAgent]
18:36:04 [Steven]
18:36:14 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
18:37:48 [Roland_]
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18:38:05 [Tina]
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18:39:18 [Tina]
Good [insert suitable time of day here], everyone.
18:39:25 [Steven]
18:39:28 [Steven]
Hi there Tina
18:39:34 [Steven]
We are just starting
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Agenda topics:
18:39:47 [Steven]
* Strategy
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* Meetings
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* Documents
18:43:27 [raman]
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18:46:04 [Steven]
Topic: Strategy
18:47:54 [Steven]
Roland: The group is called XHTML2, and our primary delivery is XHTML2
18:48:00 [Steven]
... what are we trying to achieve?
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... I want to suggest we focus on authoring, and not rendering
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... and look at a pipeline from authoring to rendering on lots of devices
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... with personalization, device independence
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... etc
18:49:05 [Steven]
... being applied from the authored materials to the user experience
18:50:37 [Steven]
Steven: Now that we have the split and the chartering behind us, it gives us the opportunity now to focus on the h\igher-level stuff
18:50:48 [Steven]
... and HTML can still remain the assembly language of the web
18:50:57 [Steven]
... and we don't have to worry about it
18:51:07 [Steven]
Raman: Like we did with XForms
18:51:25 [Steven]
Roland: We don't need to think of the page as the unit of a document either
18:51:31 [Steven]
... with mashup iedas in mind
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18:53:31 [Tina]
I believe we should focus on creating a language with which structure and semantic interpretation can be encoded - rendering ought be a non-topic in achieving this goal.
18:53:36 [Steven]
Raman: I would like to avoid SOAP and WSDL if possible in the solution space
18:53:53 [Steven]
I agree Tina
18:54:10 [Steven]
Raman: So let us focus on authoring, delivering clean stuff
18:54:50 [Steven]
Roland: If we consider our world supporting mashup styles, whatever our unit of work is, we can consider the broader ecosystem such as security
18:55:41 [Steven]
Roland: It allows us to focus on *intent*, and therefore we can ditch h1-h6 for example, and just use the context
18:56:10 [Steven]
... and remove some of the clutter that is still in the XHTML2 spec for historical reasons
18:56:25 [Steven]
Steven: Sounds excellent
18:56:35 [Steven]
Roland: But we are still talking about compound documents
18:56:45 [Steven]
... if we need mathml, svg, it is still composable
18:57:25 [Steven]
... and one other thing, I would like us to try and deal with the namespace ugliness
18:57:56 [Steven]
Raman: Given that XML Schema doesn't define the root element, we could actually define some new root elements
18:58:11 [Steven]
... such as <web>
18:58:21 [Steven]
... we can avoid XML Schema
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... we can alias names where needed
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... to make authoring easier
18:59:00 [Steven]
ROland: THis is a distinct subject in its own right
18:59:06 [Steven]
18:59:11 [Steven]
18:59:35 [Steven]
Raman: We need to protect the author from the ugliness
19:00:13 [Steven]
Rich: I was talking with Dave Raggett about components
19:00:24 [Steven]
Roland: We need to talk about levels of abstraction
19:02:00 [Steven]
Steven: I think we need to consider XBL at some level as part of the infrastructure for XHTML2
19:02:07 [ShaneM]
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19:02:34 [Steven]
Welcome Shane
19:02:38 [Steven]
19:02:54 [Steven]
skype available if you want SHane
19:02:59 [Steven]
rrsagent, pointer?
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19:03:17 [Steven]
19:04:04 [Steven]
Raman: If we do the authoring layer cleaner, then we can later use XBLn to implement
19:05:19 [Steven]
Rich: Can you still render to the web?
19:05:43 [Steven]
Steven: Yes, in fact are already soing this. There are at least two companies using XHTML2 to adapt to devices
19:07:00 [Steven]
Rich: And can we add time?
19:08:42 [Steven]
Steven: I went to a meeting with SYMM this week, and they demo'd a page with XForms and SMIL working together with the Forms driving the SMIL presentation
19:08:51 [Steven]
... that's the advantage of the W3C architecture
19:09:18 [Steven]
... SYMM are the domain experts in time, and we can use thier stuff with ours
19:09:29 [Steven]
Rich: THis makes our stuff much more useful
19:09:37 [Steven]
... because it makes it much easier to write to
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19:10:07 [Steven]
19:11:27 [Steven]
Steven: Mark Birbeck has recently been suggesting making an XHTML version of XBL, with xhtml as the container
19:11:36 [Steven]
Raman: Then we could use XPath selectors
19:11:51 [Steven]
Steven: Which fits better into our architecture, since we use XPath already
19:17:13 [Steven]
Roland: So we are going to get over our bipolar disorder
19:17:48 [Steven]
Steven: Well we have been trying to make everyone happy in a bimodal world
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... and you end up making everyone unhappy
19:18:16 [Steven]
... now we can concentrate on being clean
19:18:47 [Steven]
Roland: We need a technical strategy, but also a communication strategy
19:19:40 [Steven]
Rich: Change naming?
19:19:45 [Steven]
ROland: Maybe in time
19:19:49 [Steven]
19:20:36 [Steven]
Rich: We need to talk to companies to ask what they need
19:20:53 [Steven]
Raman: We must avoid making it too big
19:21:09 [Steven]
... talk 1-1 with them is fine though
19:21:41 [ShaneM]
are there people who think that the current XHTML 2 strategy is NOT sufficient? XForms + RDFa + cleaner, more consistent markup?
19:22:09 [ShaneM]
as far as I am concerned, XHTML 2 in its current form is ready to go.
19:22:28 [Steven]
I think we can publish
19:22:39 [Tina]
We must also be careful regarding talking to companies. Listening to their ideas, certainly, but not to include willy-nilly whatever they might desire.
19:22:43 [Steven]
but we are discussing cleaning it up even more than it is
19:22:54 [Steven]
+1 on that Tina
19:22:56 [ShaneM]
okay. I ahve no problem with that.
19:23:11 [ShaneM]
sorry I missed the earlier discussion. my week is pretty messed up
19:23:26 [Steven]
We are going to talk about publishing strategies later
19:24:30 [Tina]
Will we include name-concepts in that discussion? It really is needed.
19:24:41 [Steven]
Rich: Why did EBay go with this?
19:24:49 [Steven]
Roland: SIngle authoring
19:24:54 [Steven]
19:25:39 [Steven]
Steven: Time magazine use XHTML2 as well for similar reasons
19:26:04 [Steven]
... they have one central format that they can extract the information from to deliver in as many other forms as they like
19:28:20 [Steven]
Raman: Let's take some use cases, and look to see if anyone thought we needed to add anything, but also what we can now safely take out
19:28:46 [Steven]
Rich: There is also Dita
19:28:48 [ShaneM]
lots of people have asked for hr back
19:28:53 [Steven]
Roland: A publishing format
19:29:01 [ShaneM]
and br, fwiw.
19:29:40 [Steven]
Name concepts Tina?
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19:32:19 [Steven]
Roland: There are two directions, more redical, and less radical.
19:32:45 [Steven]
... The less radical is XHTML 1,2, which is the combination of what we have now,
19:32:52 [Steven]
... allowing XForms in 1.1 for instance
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... rdfa, role etc
19:33:10 [Steven]
19:33:46 [Steven]
Rich: I'd like to show these slides on Dita (which is being standardised by OASIS)
19:33:58 [Steven]
[no URL I'm afraid, sorry people off line]
19:34:05 [Roland_]
19:34:31 [Steven]
Rich: They have topic maps in the language
19:35:16 [Steven]
Raman: We need to keep our focus sharp, so we shouldn't add topic maps, but let people import them if they want
19:36:13 [Steven]
Steven: But looking at this slide, I see something that you can do with RDFa
19:36:20 [Rich]
19:36:20 [Rich]
<topic id=“abc”><title>My topic</title><body><p>And so on</p></body></topic>
19:36:20 [Rich]
19:36:20 [Rich]
<map id=“xyz”><topicref href=“abc.dita#abc”><topicref href=“def.dita#def”/></topicref></map>
19:36:20 [Rich]
Specialization to create new types of topics and maps:
19:36:21 [Rich]
<topic> ? <task>
19:36:23 [Rich]
<map> ? <bookmap>
19:36:25 [Rich]
Defaulted class attribute maps specialized elements to ancestor ones:
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<context class=“- topic/section task/context”>Here’s why</context
19:36:40 [Steven]
... a span with rel="topicref" and the href
19:36:49 [Steven]
... done deal, that's the glory of RDFa
19:37:26 [oedipus]
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19:37:35 [Steven]
19:37:38 [Steven]
Welcome oedipus
19:37:49 [oedipus]
just got your invitation -- thanks!
19:37:59 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:37:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
19:38:05 [oedipus]
19:38:08 [Steven]
you might want to see the minutes to catch up
19:38:38 [Tina]
Steven: yes. At the moment there exist confusion as to the *name* of the thing - aka XHTML 2. Sorry I'm late.
19:38:45 [oedipus]
that's what i'm doing
19:39:08 [Steven]
Yes Tina, that is a future discussion, but we're leaving it as-is for the time being
19:39:37 [Tina]
That's fine, as long as the discussion is had. The way it is going now will lead to some chaos, if earlier experiences is any indication.
19:41:00 [Steven]
[Rich's slides even mention RDFa as a potential aplicaiton]
19:41:09 [alessio]
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19:41:20 [Steven]
19:41:22 [Steven]
19:41:26 [Steven]
Welcome Alessio!
19:41:30 [Steven]
19:41:38 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:41:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
19:41:49 [oedipus]
shane, reading minutes shouldn't the horizontality or verticality of a separator be a styling issue / controlled by stylesheets
19:42:01 [oedipus]
no need to bring back HR
19:42:11 [alessio]
hi all, I'm on a train :)
19:42:12 [alessio]
so connection could be not stable
19:42:43 [Steven]
19:43:15 [ShaneM]
oedipus: of coruse it should. people asked about other extensions. Just playing along.
19:44:58 [oedipus]
RDFa is very attractive to a few of us in PF (Protocols & Formats), not just RichS
19:45:07 [Steven]
19:45:27 [Steven]
It got some good comments yesterday at the TP as well
19:45:37 [ShaneM]
hell, I even have uses for it.
19:45:42 [oedipus]
19:45:48 [ShaneM]
its a sign of the apocalypse
19:45:59 [oedipus]
hope it's only the sixth seal
19:47:28 [Steven]
Roland: Delivery context is an important part of what we need to do for adaptation
19:47:41 [Steven]
... so we need to look at what DIAL has been doing
19:47:51 [Steven]
... CDF framework for eventing
19:48:20 [oedipus]
intrigued by ideas expressed about an XHTML version of XBL, with xhtml as the container
19:48:35 [Steven]
Yes Oedipus, a pity that MarkB isn't here
19:48:54 [Steven]
I hope he will join at some point to give us more detail
19:49:08 [Steven]
but the idea is just a mapping using selectors, to other actions
19:49:20 [Steven]
and that is easy to represent using XHTML2
19:49:34 [Steven]
we have all the infrastructire to achieve the necessary effect
19:49:51 [Steven]
ROland: So Raman, you were talking about XPath
19:49:59 [Steven]
... DIAL uses XPath as well
19:50:02 [Steven]
19:50:10 [oedipus]
ah... i've already talked with the XBL people about assisting in the XBL2 Primer where there is a placeholder for accessibility enhancements via XBL
19:50:11 [Steven]
Steven: And XForms
19:51:19 [Steven]
Steven: It's a shame that the CSS selectors are not more coherent
19:51:32 [Steven]
... XPath selectors are clearly more consistent
19:52:09 [oedipus]
pity, too, that CSS selectors aren't more coherently implemented, either...
19:52:42 [Steven]
... I suggested when I was in the CSS WG that they ought to design the whole set right at the beginning, even if they didn't include them all in the first version
19:52:47 [oedipus]
XForms and XPath in an XHTML version of XBL sounds like the best of both worlds, for what that is worth
19:53:53 [Steven]
Offsite people, we are going to talk to UWA people shortly
19:53:59 [Steven]
just so you understand if we go quiet
19:54:08 [Steven]
We have an appointment at 3
19:54:12 [Steven]
(in 6 mins)
19:54:14 [oedipus]
camcorder captured ARIA demo for HTML WG at:
19:55:27 [oedipus]
quick question to anyone who has an answer: is XProc a viable means of at least managing mash-ups?
19:56:06 [Steven]
Oedipus, can't reach the site
19:56:34 [oedipus]
Steven, neither can i - the IP address is that of the router in the HTML WG conference room
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19:57:55 [oedipus]
actually, since i couldn't make it in person, i've been able to attend multiple meetings simultaneously
19:58:09 [Steven]
good work!
20:00:41 [ShaneM]
20:01:24 [oedipus]
it literally said "versioning, dropped"
20:02:33 [Steven]
rrsagent, pointer?
20:02:33 [RRSAgent]
20:04:34 [oedipus]
marcos is going to send me a copy of the ARIA demo and i'll put it someplace publicly accessible
20:04:53 [Steven]
20:05:14 [Steven]
We are off for coffee, and then UWA (on #uwawg)
20:06:47 [Steven]
We'll be back later in this channel
20:07:05 [ShaneM]
20:07:17 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:07:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
20:07:40 [Steven]
20:08:00 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda:
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20:48:21 [alessio]
hallo again, sorry but that's italian situation about mobile connection on travelling...
20:48:27 [Dennis]
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20:49:46 [Steven-mobile]
20:50:19 [Steven-mobile]
Alessio, we are now in a joint mtg #uwawg
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21:03:51 [Nick]
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21:07:46 [Steven-mobile]
Hi nick
21:08:00 [Steven-mobile]
We are mtg with uwa
21:08:35 [Steven-mobile]
Are you staying in Boston?
21:09:52 [Nick]
21:10:25 [Steven-mobile]
Actual channel is #ddwg
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21:14:46 [ShaneM]
there's some joke there, but its too easy
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21:30:53 [Nick]
is the XHTML wg also meeting tomorrow?
21:31:57 [myakura]
think so.
21:32:28 [myakura] yes there is
21:33:36 [Nick]
not what I'm going to do tomorrow, can I join the meeting?
21:34:35 [Nick]
s/not what/not sure what/
21:35:16 [myakura]
observers are allowed so i think you can join if registered
21:35:36 [myakura]
i think i'll be there at some time
21:42:34 [Steven-mobile]
The uwa mtg is unlikely to end soon. We restart tomorrow at 9am EST
21:47:55 [oedipus]
thanks steven -- will be there -- well, here, but you know what i mean...
22:08:08 [Steven]
Yes Nick, of course you may join