Nov 09 03:30:21 <MikeSmith>	Meeting: HTML Working Group November f2f Day One
Nov 09 03:30:39 <MikeSmith>	Chair: DanConnolly, ChrisWilson
Nov 09 03:31:00 <MikeSmith>	Present+ KarlDubost
Nov 09 03:31:03 <Lachy>	MikeSmith, unfortunately, I can't call in, since I don't have a phone at home.
Nov 09 03:31:19 <MikeSmith>	Present+ MikkoHonkala
Nov 09 03:31:23 -->	shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:31:28 <MikeSmith>	Present+ MichaelCooper
Nov 09 03:31:45 <Lachy>	MikeSmith, it would be good if you could set up skype
Nov 09 03:31:49 <MikeSmith>	Present+ MarcinHanclik
Nov 09 03:31:53 <MikeSmith>	Lachy - no can do
Nov 09 03:31:56 -->	justin (justin@63.119.45.74) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:32:03 <MikeSmith>	Present+ HenriSivonen
Nov 09 03:32:11 <MikeSmith>	Present+ JamesGraham
Nov 09 03:32:24 <MikeSmith>	Present+ AnneVanKesteren
Nov 09 03:32:34 <MikeSmith>	Present+ fromBoeing
Nov 09 03:32:46 <MikeSmith>	Present+ JoshueOConnor
Nov 09 03:32:53 -->	timbl (timbl@63.119.45.160) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:33:10 <MikeSmith>	Present+ MarcusMilke
Nov 09 03:33:10 <--	shepazu has quit (Client exited)
Nov 09 03:33:15 ---	Philip_ is now known as Philip
Nov 09 03:33:22 <MikeSmith>	Present+ BobHopgood
Nov 09 03:33:30 <MikeSmith>	Present+ Mauro
Nov 09 03:33:37 <MikeSmith>	Present+ TexTexin
Nov 09 03:33:44 -->	smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:33:51 <MikeSmith>	Present+ TravisFromMicrosoft
Nov 09 03:34:00 <MikeSmith>	Present+ MasatakaYakura
Nov 09 03:34:08 <smedero>	Ugh, traffic - just got to the Hyatt.
Nov 09 03:34:16 <MikeSmith>	Present+ KazuhitoKidachi
Nov 09 03:34:21 <smedero>	Is the meeting on the 14th floor still?
Nov 09 03:34:23 <MikeSmith>	Present+ DaveSinger
Nov 09 03:34:36 <MikeSmith>	Present+ MaciejStokowiak
Nov 09 03:34:37 *	mauro to smedero, yes
Nov 09 03:34:37 -->	tantek (tantek@70.13.24.31) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:34:40 <smedero>	thanks
Nov 09 03:34:41 <--	smedero has quit (Quit: smedero)
Nov 09 03:34:47 <MikeSmith>	Present+ DavidBaron
Nov 09 03:35:00 <MikeSmith>	Present+ LesliefromLosAlamos
Nov 09 03:35:16 <MikeSmith>	Present+ NickFromLosAlamos
Nov 09 03:35:26 <MikeSmith>	Present+ AaronLeventhal
Nov 09 03:35:33 <MikeSmith>	Present+ MikeSmith
Nov 09 03:35:48 ---	Notify: karl is online (mcclure.w3.org).
Nov 09 03:35:48 -->	karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:35:51 <anne>	Zakim, close agendum 1
Nov 09 03:35:51 <Zakim>	agendum 1, Welcome/Convene, closed
Nov 09 03:35:51 <MikeSmith>	Zakim, close agendum 1
Nov 09 03:35:52 <Zakim>	I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
Nov 09 03:35:54 <Zakim>	2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 03:35:55 <Zakim>	agendum 1, Welcome/Convene, closed
Nov 09 03:35:57 <Zakim>	I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
Nov 09 03:35:58 <Zakim>	2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 03:36:00 -->	dsinger (daithesong@63.119.45.128) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:36:01 *	anne .. hah
Nov 09 03:36:14 *	MikeSmith wonders who is scribing? me?
Nov 09 03:37:08 *	oedipus if mike smith can't set up a skype conference call to broadcast audio there are probably several people in the room with skype that can simply turn their laptop's internal mic on -- in any event, should anyone decide to audiocast, my skypename is: oedipusnj
Nov 09 03:37:20 *	karl will help MikeSmith 
Nov 09 03:37:32 -->	mikko_honkala (mikko_honk@63.119.45.209) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:37:36 -->	Markus (winterwolf@63.119.44.149) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:37:59 <MikeSmith>	oedipus - DanC says he would rather not right now, but we can play around later at the break
Nov 09 03:38:18 -->	smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:38:20 <MikeSmith>	I missed a few people when I did the present list
Nov 09 03:38:32 <MikeSmith>	So if you are on IRC and don't see your name on the following list:
Nov 09 03:38:43 <MikeSmith>	RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Nov 09 03:38:43 <RRSAgent>	I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
Nov 09 03:38:53 -->	Pion (3f772c3c@128.30.52.23) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:39:02 <mauro>	zakim, who is here?
Nov 09 03:39:02 <Zakim>	sorry, mauro, I don't know what conference this is
Nov 09 03:39:04 <Zakim>	On IRC I see Pion, smedero, Markus, mikko_honkala, dsinger, karl, tantek, timbl, justin, Marcos, MichaelC, mauro, lm, dbaron, ChrisWilson, Nick, myakura, Philip, mjs, MikeSmith,
Nov 09 03:39:08 <Zakim>	... kazuhito, aaronlev, anne, jgraham_, hober, gavin, robburns, aroben, Zakim, Lachy, matt, dglazkov, hasather, oedipus, tH, ROBOd, Lionheart, Hixie, heycam, laplink, bogi,
Nov 09 03:39:12 <Zakim>	... gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, jmb, Kuruma, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, drry, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu, RRSAgent
Nov 09 03:39:13 <karl>	[Danc is explaining the process document with a drawing of Ian Hickson]
Nov 09 03:39:15 <MikeSmith>	...then please do a "Present+ YourName" to add yourself to the present list
Nov 09 03:39:17 <MikeSmith>	please
Nov 09 03:39:28 <smedero>	Present +ShawnMedero
Nov 09 03:39:43 <hober>	What if you're in IRC but not at the TP?
Nov 09 03:39:52 *	anne likes how snakes can go from a public draft straight to PR
Nov 09 03:39:57 <smedero>	heh.
Nov 09 03:40:23 <MikeSmith>	Present+ NoahMendelsohn
Nov 09 03:40:24 <Hixie>	anne: snakes go from the head to the tail
Nov 09 03:40:34 <anne>	http://ln.hixie.ch/media/comics/hixie/w3c-snakes-and-ladders.png
Nov 09 03:41:08 <anne>	Hixie, oh, so I got them backwards
Nov 09 03:41:11 <MikeSmith>	hober - then please do, e.g., YourName_IRC_only or something like that
Nov 09 03:41:19 <ChrisWilson>	is this an internationalization difference?  (In the US I think the game is marketed as chutes & ladders)
Nov 09 03:41:23 <anne>	(the above ln.hixie.ch image is being discussed)
Nov 09 03:41:24 ---	[hober] (ted@68.107.112.172) : Edward O'Connor
Nov 09 03:41:24 ---	[hober] #html-wg #tp 
Nov 09 03:41:24 ---	[hober] irc.w3.org :W3C IRC server
Nov 09 03:41:24 ---	[hober] End of WHOIS list.
Nov 09 03:41:51 <MikeSmith>	Present+ ShawnHenry
Nov 09 03:42:07 <karl>	anne, there are steps you can jump over. Basically there are entrance criterias not exit criterias
Nov 09 03:42:15 <MikeSmith>	Present+ OlivierTheroux
Nov 09 03:42:20 <hober>	Present+ EdwardOConnor_IRC_only
Nov 09 03:42:20 <MikeSmith>	Present+ BertBos
Nov 09 03:42:25 <gsnedders>	Present +GeoffreySneddon_IRC_only
Nov 09 03:42:47 <hsivonen>	so the snakes went from each stage backwards
Nov 09 03:42:58 <mauro>	Meeting: HTML WG F2F Meeting
Nov 09 03:43:06 <Lachy>	Present+ LachlanHunt_IRC_only
Nov 09 03:43:16 -->	jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:43:17 <gsnedders>	Present+ GeoffreySneddon_IRC_only
Nov 09 03:43:20 <MikeSmith>	q?
Nov 09 03:43:20 *	Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
Nov 09 03:43:20 <mauro>	q?
Nov 09 03:43:21 *	Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
Nov 09 03:43:25 <smedero>	Present+ ShawnMedero
Nov 09 03:43:34 *	smedero made a stupid typo
Nov 09 03:43:35 <gavin_>	Present+ GavinSharp_IRC_only
Nov 09 03:43:58 -->	Dennis (forty4@63.119.45.205) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:45:22 <dglazkov>	Present+ DimitriGlazkov_IRC_only
Nov 09 03:45:55 <--	robburns has quit (Quit: robburns)
Nov 09 03:46:17 <karl>	Topic: introduction on aria
Nov 09 03:46:21 <MichaelC>	ARIA Overview: http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria
Nov 09 03:46:37 <hsivonen>	Ben arrived
Nov 09 03:46:53 <MikeSmith>	Aron Leventhal speaking about ARIA ... ARIA intro
Nov 09 03:46:59 <ChrisWilson>	http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-roadmap/ is a useful start too.
Nov 09 03:47:28 <MikeSmith>	32 or more states in a typical accessibility ABI(?)
Nov 09 03:47:42 <MichaelC>	s/ABI(?)/API
Nov 09 03:47:56 <hsivonen>	MSAA
Nov 09 03:48:15 <MikeSmith>	aaronlev : MSAA (Microsoft Active Accessibility) ... 
Nov 09 03:48:29 <MikeSmith>	Mike Spilachi arrives
Nov 09 03:49:02 <MichaelC>	s/Spilachi/Squillace
Nov 09 03:49:13 <ChrisWilson>	Good overview/start to MSAA is http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms697707.aspx
Nov 09 03:49:13 <MikeSmith>	aaronlev : HTML is missing basic things that we have on the desktop ... 
Nov 09 03:49:47 <MikeSmith>	... ridiculous, for example, that we don't have a tree-view [mechanism] in HTML
Nov 09 03:49:56 -->	shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:50:04 <MikeSmith>	... widget toolkit takes care of a lot of the work
Nov 09 03:50:27 ---	Notify: olivier is online (mcclure.w3.org).
Nov 09 03:50:27 -->	olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:50:53 <gsnedders>	The number of common widgets that need to be implemented time and time again with JS is maddening
Nov 09 03:50:58 <MikeSmith>	... because of DOM ability for mutation events, can fire an event for [accessibility needs]
Nov 09 03:51:09 <hsivonen>	info on ARIA: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications/Relationship_to_HTML_FAQ
Nov 09 03:51:10 <MikeSmith>	... the hard work is on the side of the JS author
Nov 09 03:51:16 <MikeSmith>	Scribenick: MikeSmith
Nov 09 03:51:31 <gsnedders>	In parts you'll never get as good accessibility with JS as you would with native widgets
Nov 09 03:51:50 <gsnedders>	s/In parts/At times/
Nov 09 03:51:50 <MikeSmith>	[getting sound from Mike Spilachi's machine plugged in]
Nov 09 03:51:59 -->	Bert (bbos@128.30.52.28) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:52:27 <MichaelC>	s/Spilachi/Squillace/G
Nov 09 03:52:35 *	shepazu notes that joint HTML/WebAPI members might want to watch the WebAPI IRC
Nov 09 03:52:36 <ChrisWilson>	gsnedders - that's the semantic problem ARIA tries to address
Nov 09 03:52:43 <MikeSmith>	Marcos is videotaping Mike's demo
Nov 09 03:52:52 <MikeSmith>	RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Nov 09 03:52:53 <RRSAgent>	I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
Nov 09 03:53:13 <gsnedders>	ChrisWilson: even with the complete ARIA, I still have my doubts about whether we can recreate everything
Nov 09 03:53:25 <gsnedders>	[that could be done natively]
Nov 09 03:54:06 <ChrisWilson>	by adding all the relevant controls and semantics to HTML, you mean?
Nov 09 03:54:10 <MikeSmith>	Mike slows down his JAWS to 20% and mjs jokes it reminds him of TimBL slowed-down take from yesterday
Nov 09 03:54:51 *	ChrisWilson thinks Tim slowed down to more than 20%.
Nov 09 03:54:56 <MikeSmith>	[Mike is pressing controls in a webapp and getting feedback from jaws]
Nov 09 03:55:16 <gsnedders>	ChrisWilson: the diversity of AT platforms and how they are implemented makes me wonder whether one thing could really support everything
Nov 09 03:55:42 <MikeSmith>	Demo is "Happy Time Pizza On-line Ordering System"
Nov 09 03:55:48 <anne>	(ARIA is very low-level)
Nov 09 03:55:52 <--	mjs has quit (Quit: mjs)
Nov 09 03:55:58 -->	mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:55:58 ---	Notify: mjs is online (mcclure.w3.org).
Nov 09 03:56:13 *	MikeSmith wonders if somebody already put the URL for the demo?
Nov 09 03:56:19 <ChrisWilson>	that's true, but the idea of ARIA (and similar ATs) is to allow mapping application components to a smaller, more high-level semantic set of controls.
Nov 09 03:56:29 <oedipus>	no
Nov 09 03:56:39 <olivier>	Mikesmith: I can see the screen, but the URI is a tad long
Nov 09 03:56:48 <ChrisWilson>	sorry, not perfect decsription.
Nov 09 03:56:58 *	oedipus asks which widget is it -- i can probably get the uri if you tell me
Nov 09 03:57:00 <MikeSmith>	aaronlev - can you paste in the URL for the demo please
Nov 09 03:57:05 <oedipus>	which widget is it -- i can probably get the uri if you tell me
Nov 09 03:57:17 <karl>	http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/tabpanel/view_xhtml.php
Nov 09 03:57:23 <oedipus>	thanks
Nov 09 03:57:52 <ChrisWilson>	the idea is to capture the semantic roles of components; there may be multiple different components that act as a "button"
Nov 09 03:57:53 <MichaelC>	Most of this demo comes from http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/
Nov 09 03:58:08 *	Lachy gets a blank page at that URI
Nov 09 03:58:09 <aaronlev>	http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dijit/tests/test_Tree.html
Nov 09 03:58:12 <MikeSmith>	[mike is now doing Dijit Tree Test demo]
Nov 09 03:58:13 <dglazkov>	t.v. raman once mentioned using mobile gmail as the accessible (and quality) equivalent to the full-blown gmail
Nov 09 03:58:24 <anne>	ChrisWilson, the idea is that the author implements the accessibility on top of a widget he already created
Nov 09 03:58:25 <dglazkov>	perhaps that's the solution
Nov 09 03:58:48 *	anne considers that to be a low-level API
Nov 09 03:58:48 <MikeSmith>	mike: If you use Dojo toolkit now, a lot of [this] is already built into the library.
Nov 09 03:58:50 <dglazkov>	instead of taking a complex Web app and attaching AT hooks to it
Nov 09 03:59:14 <MikeSmith>	aaronlev : Mike is using the standard keys for a tree view
Nov 09 03:59:18 <dglazkov>	build your app with simple blocks, available in HTML
Nov 09 03:59:29 <dglazkov>	and use JS to enhance the UX
Nov 09 03:59:31 <gsnedders>	if I create a slider in JS, is there any way it could behave identically to a native one on OS X using ARIA?
Nov 09 03:59:32 <MikeSmith>	mike: just as if I were in Windows Explorer ... just like on a desktop
Nov 09 03:59:33 <ChrisWilson>	anne - umm, sort of.  the idea is that the author describes the semantic role of their components, so that accessibility tools can make use of it
Nov 09 03:59:36 -->	tlr (roessler@128.30.52.30) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 03:59:40 <oedipus>	the dijit tree test works on my FF3 install (last release) with JAWS 8.0.2173
Nov 09 03:59:43 <dglazkov>	while providing the opportunity to turn off the enhancement
Nov 09 04:00:08 <MikeSmith>	olivier : Is there a specific intonation for indicating [this metadata]
Nov 09 04:00:22 <anne>	ChrisWilson, is it used for anything else?
Nov 09 04:00:23 <gsnedders>	(even if we ignore the visible part of the UI for now)
Nov 09 04:00:54 <ChrisWilson>	anne, the semantic role?
Nov 09 04:01:03 <--	lm has quit (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
Nov 09 04:01:09 <anne>	dglazkov, that's the idea of CSS + XBL basically, if I understand you correctly (but that's more a long term solution :-(
Nov 09 04:01:48 -->	kingryan (rking3@67.164.15.57) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:02:06 <MikeSmith>	tex: wouldn't you want to say, give me the list of all elements at this level? ... 
Nov 09 04:02:22 <dglazkov>	yes.. I guess I just don't like the ARIA proposal, because it's ultimately a dead-end.
Nov 09 04:02:31 <MikeSmith>	... why not just map this to a completely different model?
Nov 09 04:02:42 <oedipus>	dglazkov: why do you say it is a dead-end?
Nov 09 04:02:47 -->	MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:03:19 <dglazkov>	well, oedipus, I may be to harsh in this characterization
Nov 09 04:03:19 <MikeSmith>	aaronlev : there probably is a more efficient model from presenting the data for this context ... but it would be something completely foreign to the average desktop user
Nov 09 04:03:48 -->	anthony (chatzilla@203.12.172.254) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:03:48 <MikeSmith>	aaronlev : JS widgets will always be a reality ... 
Nov 09 04:03:51 <dglazkov>	but I think that we shouldn't be taking complex UIs and making them accessible
Nov 09 04:03:52 <Lachy>	because it's way too complex for average authors to even think about using and you're relying on the distribution and use of pre-written toolkits for this to be even remotely successful
Nov 09 04:04:00 <--	mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) has left #html-wg
Nov 09 04:04:02 -->	mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:04:04 <mjs>	it's a dead end only if all control types covered by AX apis end up available in HTML, and we get enough power to fully customize look and feel of all widgets
Nov 09 04:04:22 <MikeSmith>	aaronlev : sometimes the best UI is just one that people [already] know
Nov 09 04:04:28 <oedipus>	ARIA is the first step and suffices for generalized markup languages, but the intermediary where specialized knowledge domain markup is used -- consult: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers
Nov 09 04:04:34 <anne>	mjs, yeah, CSS is the problem...
Nov 09 04:04:37 *	anne looks at Bert
Nov 09 04:04:37 <gsnedders>	Lachy: most authors just use text/links, though, in fairness
Nov 09 04:05:01 <mjs>	anne: I dunno if it's just CSS - HTML doesn't have built-in support for many OS-standard widget types, even in the current HTML5 draft
Nov 09 04:05:02 <jgraham_>	Lachy: you rely on prewritten toolkits in desktop apps too; to be fair
Nov 09 04:05:11 <oedipus>	mjg, by AX do you mean accessibility (a11y)?
Nov 09 04:05:36 <mjs>	oedipus, yes, AX is the abbreviation used by the Mac OS X accessibility APIs
Nov 09 04:05:42 <MikeSmith>	Present+ KevinLawver
Nov 09 04:05:47 <oedipus>	thanks, i didn't know
Nov 09 04:06:03 <MikeSmith>	kevin: Think of something like CoverTunes
Nov 09 04:06:18 <MikeSmith>	Hixie : people are still making up their own widgets
Nov 09 04:06:30 <MikeSmith>	q?
Nov 09 04:06:31 *	Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:06:42 <oedipus>	mjs: the last time i used a mac, i could still see...  it's hard to get agencies for the blind to train on anything other than windows
Nov 09 04:06:46 <hsivonen>	s/CoverTunes/CoverFlow/
Nov 09 04:07:02 <mjs>	CoverFlow is just a list view with a bonus magical display
Nov 09 04:07:10 tantek tH Thezilch timbl tlr trackbot-ng 
Nov 09 04:07:18 <mjs>	oedipus, that's too bad - VoiceOver is supposedly pretty good
Nov 09 04:07:23 *	karl suggests that if people on IRC wants to ask questions that they record it on IRC under the form of q+ to ask about blahblah
Nov 09 04:07:42 <MikeSmith>	[one more demo from mike now]
Nov 09 04:07:53 <aaronlev>	http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/spreadsheet
Nov 09 04:07:57 *	oedipus mjs, that's what i hear from those who do have a mac
Nov 09 04:08:12 <Lachy>	I used VoiceOver briefly to test it out, and it was remarkebly simple even for me
Nov 09 04:08:15 <--	Markus has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 04:08:18 <MikeSmith>	[mike is showing a demo of navigating a table]
Nov 09 04:08:30 <MikeSmith>	mike: I hate navigating spreadsheets
Nov 09 04:08:43 *	oedipus +1 to that!
Nov 09 04:08:49 <MikeSmith>	... the last thing I want to do is go navigating cell-by-cell through a spreadsheet
Nov 09 04:09:02 <MikeSmith>	[mike moving through column headers]
Nov 09 04:09:07 <MichaelC>	q+ to say ARIA provides the semantics to allow Assistive Technology (AT) to customize presentation - AT could compete on how they optimize the presentation of particular widgets based on these semantics, but we can't expect authors to provide multiple parallel versions
Nov 09 04:09:07 *	Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:09:36 *	oedipus thanks Mike(tm) Smith for the DVS
Nov 09 04:09:40 <MikeSmith>	[mike showing how to edit contents of cells]
Nov 09 04:10:02 <mjs>	q+ to say that auditory reflection of the visual UI has a strong advantage - enabling collaboration between sighted and blind users
Nov 09 04:10:02 *	Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:10:18 <MikeSmith>	[mike hitting Ctrl+Alt to pull up menus]
Nov 09 04:10:20 <karl>	q?
Nov 09 04:10:20 *	Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:10:57 <MikeSmith>	hsivonen - are the table semantics from HTML only or with ARIA markup?
Nov 09 04:11:26 <MikeSmith>	aaronlev - some ARIA to say that the row headers are read-only
Nov 09 04:11:33 <oedipus>	q+ to say that auditory reflection of the visual UI is also often necessary in order to get accurate technical assistance
Nov 09 04:11:33 *	Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs, oedipus on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:12:03 <MikeSmith>	[demo finished ... applause ... DanC stands and stretches]
Nov 09 04:12:40 <MikeSmith>	[next up is demo from Ben]
Nov 09 04:12:45 <karl>	oedipus, we are collecting questions
Nov 09 04:12:57 *	oedipus ok...
Nov 09 04:13:08 <oedipus>	q-
Nov 09 04:13:08 *	Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:13:09 <MikeSmith>	Present+ BenMillard
Nov 09 04:13:15 <mjs>	q-
Nov 09 04:13:15 *	Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:13:38 <MikeSmith>	[waiting from Ben to get set up]
Nov 09 04:13:54 <MikeSmith>	Present+ SeanMedero
Nov 09 04:14:00 *	oedipus wonders if the talk is still entitled "never mind the bullocks..."
Nov 09 04:14:10 <MikeSmith>	Present+ PatrickIan
Nov 09 04:14:18 <MikeSmith>	Present+ ChrisRowland
Nov 09 04:14:29 <MikeSmith>	Present+ SteveFaulkner
Nov 09 04:14:41 <MikeSmith>	RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Nov 09 04:14:41 <RRSAgent>	I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
Nov 09 04:14:43 <MichaelC>	q-
Nov 09 04:14:43 *	Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:15:07 <MichaelC>	Regarding customization of presentation: ARIA provides the semantics to allow Assistive Technology (AT) to customize presentation - AT could compete on how they optimize the presentation of particular widgets based on these semantics, but we can't expect authors to provide multiple parallel versions
Nov 09 04:15:08 <olivier>	s/PatrickIan/PatrickIon/
Nov 09 04:15:39 <--	Pion has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Nov 09 04:15:49 -->	Marcos_ (chatzilla@63.119.45.135) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:16:05 <MikeSmith>	[we got musical accompaniment from DanC on the guitar]
Nov 09 04:16:29 <MikeSmith>	[Ben Millard introducing topic of data tables]
Nov 09 04:16:40 *	oedipus thinks the presentations should have been delivered a la dylan, with one word per placard and DanC strumming along
Nov 09 04:17:01 <anne>	He explains: http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
Nov 09 04:17:01 <kazuhito>	http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
Nov 09 04:17:26 -->	lm (W3CIRC@63.119.45.147) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:17:50 <MikeSmith>	ben: found out there are many tables on the Web that weren't in HTML ... some ASCII tables, some Excel, etc.
Nov 09 04:17:59 -->	PIon (3f772c3c@128.30.52.23) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:18:11 <--	Marcos has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 04:18:15 ---	Marcos_ is now known as Marcos
Nov 09 04:18:29 <MikeSmith>	... found some instances of tables lacking any header rows at all
Nov 09 04:18:38 <ChrisWilson>	oedipus, maybe we should make that requirement for all discussion.
Nov 09 04:19:21 <MikeSmith>	[Ben is walking us through the "How Authors Indicate Headers" part of page at URL above]
Nov 09 04:21:30 <ChrisWilson>	q?
Nov 09 04:21:30 *	Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:21:31 <MikeSmith>	q?
Nov 09 04:21:32 *	Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:21:38 *	anne doesn't think sticking a copy will help
Nov 09 04:21:43 <oedipus>	ChrisW: sounds good to me -- should i go down into the basement to mix up the medicine?
Nov 09 04:21:56 *	karl is sending the page to www-archive with the link to the URI for last version
Nov 09 04:22:11 <MikeSmith>	Present+ Håkon
Nov 09 04:22:48 <MikeSmith>	[DanC preparing to do some music]
Nov 09 04:23:02 *	anne wonders how that helps given that the page links a lot of subpages
Nov 09 04:23:59 <Hixie>	IH: I'm encouraged by these numbers
Nov 09 04:24:17 <Hixie>	(they indicate higher quality tables are more common than i expected)
Nov 09 04:24:33 <MikeSmith>	[getting ready for demo from Maciej]
Nov 09 04:24:37 <--	mjs has quit (Quit: mjs)
Nov 09 04:25:02 <karl>	http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0040
Nov 09 04:25:59 <MikeSmith>	[Maciej beginning his demo]
Nov 09 04:26:34 MikeSmith MichaelC mauro MarcinHanclik Marcos matt mikko_honkala myakura 
Nov 09 04:26:37 *	anne notes that karl just created a lot of broken links
Nov 09 04:26:49 <ChrisWilson>	[mjs demoing arbitrary affine transforms thru CSS]
Nov 09 04:27:13 <ChrisWilson>	agenda+ song for Hakon [Dan]
Nov 09 04:27:13 *	Zakim notes agendum 7 added
Nov 09 04:27:40 *	karl likes broken links
Nov 09 04:27:50 <karl>	so anne can talk
Nov 09 04:27:59 <MikeSmith>	... showing cross-fading ... menu boxes growing as he mouses overs them ... notes that this can be doing using Javascript but this uses CSS
Nov 09 04:28:08 <MikeSmith>	... has really good fallback behavior
Nov 09 04:28:35 <MikeSmith>	... if you view same content in a browser that doesn't support the animation properties
Nov 09 04:28:43 *	Lachy wonders why mjs is presenting new CSS features in an HTML meeting?
Nov 09 04:28:45 <MikeSmith>	... no special hardware being used
Nov 09 04:29:04 <MikeSmith>	Lachy : because it's cool, like us
Nov 09 04:29:18 *	karl wonders why maciej speaks like his boss "hey wait, there's more!"
Nov 09 04:29:23 *	karl :p
Nov 09 04:29:43 *	Bert :-) at MikeSmith
Nov 09 04:30:18 <ChrisWilson>	karl, I was hearing the Ginsu knife TV ad...
Nov 09 04:30:29 <dglazkov>	screenshots!
Nov 09 04:30:45 -->	myakura_ (myakura@63.119.44.133) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:30:47 <karl>	might be a cultural thing
Nov 09 04:30:47 <--	MarcinHanclik has quit (Connection reset by peer)
Nov 09 04:30:52 <MikeSmith>	[maciej is showing the markup source and CSS]
Nov 09 04:30:53 -->	mikko_honkala_ (mikko_honk@63.119.45.209) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:30:56 -->	MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:30:56 <--	mikko_honkala has quit (Connection reset by peer)
Nov 09 04:30:58 -->	Marcos_ (chatzilla@12.6.206.9) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:31:05 ---	mikko_honkala_ is now known as mikko_honkala
Nov 09 04:31:09 <MikeSmith>	... -webkit-transition-duration
Nov 09 04:31:11 -->	aaronlev_ (chatzilla@63.119.44.88) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:31:25 <MikeSmith>	... -webkit-transform
Nov 09 04:31:38 <karl>	http://webkit.org/blog/130/css-transforms/
Nov 09 04:31:38 <--	Marcos has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 04:31:39 ---	Marcos_ is now known as Marcos
Nov 09 04:32:10 <anne>	dglazkov, someone makes a movie, so maybe later
Nov 09 04:32:30 *	Lachy wonders if mjs is saying "But wait, there's more" like that guy from the old Demtel commercials, and if he'll be throwing in a set of steak knives?
Nov 09 04:32:45 *	ChrisWilson thinks so.
Nov 09 04:32:50 <--	myakura has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 04:32:56 *	oedipus thinks so too -- consensus!
Nov 09 04:33:01 <--	aaronlev has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 04:33:01 <MikeSmith>	maciej: this demo maybe shows a need for extensions to form controls
Nov 09 04:33:08 ---	aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
Nov 09 04:33:09 *	karl is missing something :p no tv for the last 6 years
Nov 09 04:33:29 *	ChrisWilson thinks that ad is much older than 6 years
Nov 09 04:33:38 <MikeSmith>	... <button type=toggle> or <button type=radio>
Nov 09 04:33:47 *	Lachy karl, those commercials haven't been on TV for about 10 years or more
Nov 09 04:33:52 <smedero>	I'm on it
Nov 09 04:33:53 *	oedipus tells karl to tune into any station in the US after 2am -- he'll see one
Nov 09 04:34:03 ---	mcclure.w3.org :Thursday November 8 2007 -- 14:34 -05:00
Nov 09 04:34:15 *	karl lachy, where? :) not in France. I'm sure. 
Nov 09 04:34:22 *	Lachy search youtube for Demtel Tim Shaw
Nov 09 04:34:35 *	karl thanks lachy
Nov 09 04:34:37 *	oedipus such as, and, if you call in the next ten minutes, we'll throw in a free [product you are being overcharged for in the first place]
Nov 09 04:34:42 <anne>	I think that in that case it doesn't match to radio really well
Nov 09 04:34:54 <anne>	Which typically has a single one selected
Nov 09 04:34:58 <MikeSmith>	"but wait, there's more" was invented by RonCo
Nov 09 04:35:02 <anne>	(no toggling behavior)
Nov 09 04:35:10 -->	mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:35:10 ---	Notify: mjs is online (mcclure.w3.org).
Nov 09 04:35:30 <ChrisWilson>	q+ for versioning pitch
Nov 09 04:35:30 <MikeSmith>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronco
Nov 09 04:35:31 *	Zakim ChrisWilson, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
Nov 09 04:35:41 <Hixie>	Zakim, agenda?
Nov 09 04:35:41 <Zakim>	I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
Nov 09 04:35:43 <Zakim>	2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:35:46 <hsivonen>	q+ to pitch conformance checking test case discussion
Nov 09 04:35:46 <Zakim>	3. ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
Nov 09 04:35:47 <Zakim>	4. Data Tables [from Ben Millard via DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:35:48 <Zakim>	5. Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [from Maciej Stachowiak via DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:35:49 <Hixie>	zakim, close item 2
Nov 09 04:35:50 <Zakim>	6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:35:51 <MikeSmith>	ChrisWilson : you gotta put "q+ to ..."
Nov 09 04:35:52 <Zakim>	7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:35:53 *	Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:35:54 <Zakim>	agendum 2, Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session, closed
Nov 09 04:35:56 <Zakim>	I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
Nov 09 04:35:57 <Zakim>	3. ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
Nov 09 04:35:57 <Hixie>	Zakim, close item 3
Nov 09 04:35:57 <Zakim>	agendum 3, ARIA demo [Al Gilman], closed
Nov 09 04:35:58 <Zakim>	I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
Nov 09 04:35:59 <ChrisWilson>	q+ to give versioning pitch
Nov 09 04:36:00 <Zakim>	4. Data Tables [from Ben Millard via DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:36:03 *	Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:36:16 <Hixie>	Zakim, close item 4
Nov 09 04:36:16 <Zakim>	agendum 4, Data Tables, closed
Nov 09 04:36:17 <Zakim>	I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
Nov 09 04:36:18 <Zakim>	5. Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [from Maciej Stachowiak via DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:36:22 <Hixie>	Zakim, close item 5
Nov 09 04:36:22 <Zakim>	agendum 5, Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer, closed
Nov 09 04:36:23 <Zakim>	I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
Nov 09 04:36:24 <Zakim>	6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:36:37 <ChrisWilson>	MikeSmith, thanks, forgot to use "to" rather than for"
Nov 09 04:36:38 <Hixie>	q+ Ben to pitch for more info on tables
Nov 09 04:36:38 *	Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:36:45 <jgraham_>	q+ for test case organisation
Nov 09 04:36:45 *	Zakim jgraham_, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
Nov 09 04:36:45 -->	raman (user@216.239.45.4) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:36:49 <Hixie>	zakim, take up item 6
Nov 09 04:36:49 <Zakim>	agendum 6. "Unconference  pitches" taken up [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:36:53 <ChrisWilson>	Zakim, take up item 6
Nov 09 04:36:53 <Zakim>	agendum 6. "Unconference  pitches" taken up [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:37:12 <Hixie>	Zakim, time speakers for 2 minutes
Nov 09 04:37:12 <Zakim>	I don't understand 'time speakers for 2 minutes', Hixie
Nov 09 04:37:17 <Hixie>	Zakim, time speakers at 2 minutes
Nov 09 04:37:17 <Zakim>	ok, Hixie
Nov 09 04:37:19 <jgraham_>	q+ to give test case organisation
Nov 09 04:37:19 *	Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_ on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:37:20 <MikeSmith>	Zakim, time speakers at 2 minutes
Nov 09 04:37:20 <Zakim>	ok, MikeSmith
Nov 09 04:38:23 <Hixie>	q+ Hixie to pitch for status thingy
Nov 09 04:38:23 *	Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:38:47 <Hixie>	q+ Hixie to pitch for test thingy
Nov 09 04:38:47 *	Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:39:09 <olivier>	q+ danc to talk about "testing is hard"
Nov 09 04:39:09 *	Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:39:24 <dbaron>	ack hsivonen
Nov 09 04:39:24 <Zakim>	hsivonen, you wanted to pitch conformance checking test case discussion
Nov 09 04:39:26 *	Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:39:55 *	Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to hsivonen
Nov 09 04:40:10 <karl>	q+ to ask about explaining systematic testing
Nov 09 04:40:10 *	Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:40:14 *	anne prolly wants to attend several of these topics
Nov 09 04:40:25 *	Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to hsivonen
Nov 09 04:40:53 <olivier>	q?
Nov 09 04:40:53 *	Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:40:55 *	Zakim gives 30 second speaker warning to hsivonen
Nov 09 04:41:11 *	Zakim gives 15 second speaker warning to hsivonen
Nov 09 04:41:14 <olivier>	ack C
Nov 09 04:41:14 <Zakim>	ChrisWilson, you wanted to give versioning pitch
Nov 09 04:41:14 <dbaron>	ack ChrisWilson
Nov 09 04:41:16 *	Zakim sees Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:41:18 *	Zakim sees Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:41:22 <--	jun has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 04:41:27 <karl>	q-
Nov 09 04:41:27 *	Zakim sees Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:41:45 *	Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to ChrisWilson
Nov 09 04:41:59 <olivier>	ack b
Nov 09 04:41:59 <Zakim>	Ben, you wanted to pitch for more info on tables
Nov 09 04:42:00 *	Zakim sees jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:42:29 *	Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to Ben
Nov 09 04:42:40 -->	howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:42:52 <olivier>	ack jg
Nov 09 04:42:52 <Zakim>	jgraham_, you wanted to give test case organisation
Nov 09 04:42:53 *	Zakim sees Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:42:58 <--	hober has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 04:43:01 <--	mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) has left #html-wg
Nov 09 04:43:02 <anne>	Henri wants to talk about systematic validator testing
Nov 09 04:43:07 -->	mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:43:11 <mjs>	q+ to pitch for offline support
Nov 09 04:43:11 *	Zakim sees Hixie, danc, mjs on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:43:13 <anne>	Chris wants to talk about versioning, backwards compat, etc.
Nov 09 04:43:17 <mjs>	q+ to pitch for media elements
Nov 09 04:43:17 *	Zakim sees Hixie, danc, mjs on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:43:22 *	Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to jgraham_
Nov 09 04:43:25 <MikeSmith>	jgraham_ points out that we have accumulated a small pile of disorganized test cases ... 
Nov 09 04:43:30 <anne>	Ben wants to talk about data tables (header association, etc.)
Nov 09 04:43:52 *	Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to jgraham_
Nov 09 04:43:52 <karl>	q+ to pitch for HTML 5 for author
Nov 09 04:43:53 *	Zakim sees Hixie, danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:43:53 <MikeSmith>	... what I want is to have a discussion about what test cases we need, how to best organizes the ones we already got
Nov 09 04:43:54 <anne>	James wants to talk about organizing existing testcases, licensing tests, etc.
Nov 09 04:43:58 <olivier>	ack H
Nov 09 04:43:58 <Zakim>	Hixie, you wanted to pitch for status thingy and to pitch for test thingy
Nov 09 04:44:01 *	Zakim sees danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:44:23 <MikeSmith>	Hixie : spec has various sections with varying levels of stability ... 
Nov 09 04:44:23 <anne>	Ian wants to talk about stability annotation within the specification (status thingy)
Nov 09 04:44:29 *	Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to Hixie
Nov 09 04:44:42 <olivier>	ack H
Nov 09 04:44:42 *	Zakim sees danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:44:43 <MikeSmith>	... would like to have a way to annotate stability of different parts of spec
Nov 09 04:45:06 <anne>	Ian wants to teach people to write tests
Nov 09 04:45:12 *	Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to H
Nov 09 04:45:19 <MikeSmith>	Hixie : tutorial session on how to write test cases
Nov 09 04:45:21 MikeSmith mjs MichaelC mauro MarcinHanclik Marcos matt mikko_honkala myakura_ 
Nov 09 04:45:24 <olivier>	agenda+ writing tests [hixie]
Nov 09 04:45:24 *	Zakim notes agendum 8 added
Nov 09 04:45:36 <olivier>	q?
Nov 09 04:45:36 *	Zakim sees danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:45:42 *	Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to H
Nov 09 04:45:44 <ChrisWilson>	zakim, agenda?
Nov 09 04:45:44 <Zakim>	I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
Nov 09 04:45:45 <Zakim>	6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:45:47 <Zakim>	7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:45:48 <Zakim>	8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
Nov 09 04:45:54 <olivier>	agenda+ data tables
Nov 09 04:45:54 *	Zakim notes agendum 9 added
Nov 09 04:45:56 <MikeSmith>	Hixie : You will write test cases and I will tell you what you are doing wrong [laughs]
Nov 09 04:45:59 <MikeSmith>	mjs : session or sweatshop?
Nov 09 04:46:06 <olivier>	agenda+ systematic validator testing
Nov 09 04:46:06 *	Zakim notes agendum 10 added
Nov 09 04:46:10 -->	Julian (chatzilla@80.143.152.66) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:46:13 *	Zakim gives 30 second speaker warning to H
Nov 09 04:46:20 <ChrisWilson>	zakim, agenda?
Nov 09 04:46:20 <Zakim>	I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
Nov 09 04:46:21 <Zakim>	6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:46:22 <MikeSmith>	RRSAgent, please draft niutes
Nov 09 04:46:23 <RRSAgent>	I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft niutes', MikeSmith.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
Nov 09 04:46:23 <Zakim>	7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:46:24 <Zakim>	8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
Nov 09 04:46:25 <Zakim>	9. data tables [from olivier]
Nov 09 04:46:25 <olivier>	agenda+ organizing existing testcases 
Nov 09 04:46:26 <Zakim>	10. systematic validator testing [from olivier]
Nov 09 04:46:27 <MikeSmith>	RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Nov 09 04:46:27 <RRSAgent>	I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
Nov 09 04:46:28 *	Zakim notes agendum 11 added
Nov 09 04:46:28 *	Zakim gives 15 second speaker warning to H
Nov 09 04:46:31 <Hixie>	agenda+ writing the spec status stuff [Hixie]
Nov 09 04:46:31 *	Zakim notes agendum 12 added
Nov 09 04:46:36 <Hixie>	agenda?
Nov 09 04:46:36 *	Zakim sees 7 items remaining on the agenda:
Nov 09 04:46:36 *	Zakim 6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:46:39 *	Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:46:39 <MikeSmith>	I like the word niutes
Nov 09 04:46:40 <olivier>	agenda+ versioning
Nov 09 04:46:40 *	Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
Nov 09 04:46:42 *	Zakim 9. data tables [from olivier]
Nov 09 04:46:44 *	Zakim 10. systematic validator testing [from olivier]
Nov 09 04:46:45 *	Zakim 11. organizing existing testcases [from olivier]
Nov 09 04:46:46 *	Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
Nov 09 04:46:48 *	Zakim notes agendum 13 added
Nov 09 04:46:49 *	Zakim chimes: speaking time is up, H
Nov 09 04:46:54 ---	tlr is now known as tlr_
Nov 09 04:47:00 <ChrisWilson>	agenda+ discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype
Nov 09 04:47:00 *	Zakim notes agendum 14 added
Nov 09 04:47:02 <olivier>	agenda+ organizing existing testcases [jgraham]
Nov 09 04:47:02 *	Zakim notes agendum 15 added
Nov 09 04:47:09 <olivier>	agenda+ versioning [chriswilson]
Nov 09 04:47:09 *	Zakim notes agendum 16 added
Nov 09 04:47:10 -->	Marcos_ (chatzilla@63.119.45.135) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:47:15 <olivier>	agenda+ systematic validator testing [henri]
Nov 09 04:47:15 *	Zakim notes agendum 17 added
Nov 09 04:47:17 <olivier>	ack d
Nov 09 04:47:17 <Zakim>	danc, you wanted to talk about "testing is hard"
Nov 09 04:47:19 *	Zakim sees mjs, karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:47:22 <olivier>	agenda?
Nov 09 04:47:22 *	Zakim sees 12 items remaining on the agenda:
Nov 09 04:47:24 *	Zakim 6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:47:25 *	Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:47:28 *	Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
Nov 09 04:47:29 *	Zakim 9. data tables [from olivier]
Nov 09 04:47:30 *	Zakim 10. systematic validator testing [from olivier]
Nov 09 04:47:31 <olivier>	agenda+ story telling and test cases [danc]
Nov 09 04:47:32 *	Zakim 11. organizing existing testcases [from olivier]
Nov 09 04:47:35 *	Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
Nov 09 04:47:37 *	Zakim 13. versioning [from olivier]
Nov 09 04:47:38 <MikeSmith>	DanC: Storytelling and test cases ... 
Nov 09 04:47:40 *	Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:47:44 *	Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
Nov 09 04:47:45 *	Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
Nov 09 04:47:46 *	Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
Nov 09 04:47:47 *	Zakim notes agendum 18 added
Nov 09 04:47:49 *	Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to danc
Nov 09 04:47:54 <olivier>	zakim, drop agendum 10
Nov 09 04:47:54 <Zakim>	agendum 10, systematic validator testing, dropped
Nov 09 04:48:01 <olivier>	zakim, drop agendum 11
Nov 09 04:48:01 <Zakim>	agendum 11, organizing existing testcases, dropped
Nov 09 04:48:14 ---	tlr_ is now known as tlr
Nov 09 04:48:18 *	Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to danc
Nov 09 04:48:23 <MikeSmith>	... karl has some great slides on this
Nov 09 04:48:31 <ChrisWilson>	q?
Nov 09 04:48:31 *	Zakim sees mjs, karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:48:40 <ChrisWilson>	ack mjs
Nov 09 04:48:40 <Zakim>	mjs, you wanted to pitch for offline support and to pitch for media elements
Nov 09 04:48:40 <olivier>	agenda 9 =  data tables [ben]
Nov 09 04:48:42 *	Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:48:43 *	Zakim notes agendum 9 replaced
Nov 09 04:48:48 <MikeSmith>	ack mjs
Nov 09 04:48:48 *	Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:48:54 <olivier>	agenda?
Nov 09 04:48:54 *	Zakim sees 11 items remaining on the agenda:
Nov 09 04:48:55 *	Zakim 6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:48:56 *	Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:48:57 <Hixie>	agenda+ offline support [mjs]
Nov 09 04:48:59 *	Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
Nov 09 04:49:01 *	Zakim 9. data tables [ben]
Nov 09 04:49:02 *	Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
Nov 09 04:49:04 *	Zakim 13. versioning [from olivier]
Nov 09 04:49:06 *	Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:49:07 <Hixie>	agenda+ media elements [mjs]
Nov 09 04:49:08 *	Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
Nov 09 04:49:11 *	Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
Nov 09 04:49:12 *	Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
Nov 09 04:49:13 *	Zakim 18. story telling and test cases [from danc via olivier]
Nov 09 04:49:14 *	Zakim notes agendum 19 added
Nov 09 04:49:15 *	Zakim notes agendum 20 added
Nov 09 04:49:15 <olivier>	agenda 13 = versioning [chrisW]
Nov 09 04:49:15 *	Zakim notes agendum 13 replaced
Nov 09 04:49:18 *	Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to mjs
Nov 09 04:49:37 <--	Marcos has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 04:49:37 ---	Marcos_ is now known as Marcos
Nov 09 04:49:44 <MikeSmith>	mjs: offline support ... we have done some implementation work, I know Mozilla has also
Nov 09 04:49:49 *	Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to mjs
Nov 09 04:49:51 <ChrisWilson>	q?
Nov 09 04:49:51 *	Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:49:55 <ChrisWilson>	ACK KARL
Nov 09 04:49:55 <Zakim>	karl, you wanted to pitch for HTML 5 for author
Nov 09 04:49:56 *	Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:50:00 <olivier>	zakim, drom agendum 13
Nov 09 04:50:00 <Zakim>	I don't understand 'drom agendum 13', olivier
Nov 09 04:50:05 <olivier>	zakim, drop agendum 13
Nov 09 04:50:05 <Zakim>	agendum 13, versioning [chrisW], dropped
Nov 09 04:50:10 <Hixie>	agenda+ HTML 5 for authors [karl]
Nov 09 04:50:10 *	Zakim notes agendum 21 added
Nov 09 04:50:16 *	olivier made a mess with his agenda+ earlier, sorry
Nov 09 04:50:19 -->	Markus (winterwolf@63.119.44.209) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:50:25 *	Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to karl
Nov 09 04:50:47 *	Hixie keeps forgetting he's projecting
Nov 09 04:50:55 *	Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to karl
Nov 09 04:51:00 <olivier>	q?
Nov 09 04:51:00 *	Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:51:01 <ChrisWilson>	q?
Nov 09 04:51:02 *	Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:51:10 <Hixie>	agenda?
Nov 09 04:51:10 *	Zakim sees 13 items remaining on the agenda:
Nov 09 04:51:11 *	Zakim 6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:51:12 *	Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:51:13 <MikeSmith>	karl : with HTML5 we have a big clash with [previous expections] of the community toward W3C specs ... 
Nov 09 04:51:16 *	Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
Nov 09 04:51:17 *	Zakim 9. data tables [ben]
Nov 09 04:51:18 *	Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
Nov 09 04:51:20 *	Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:51:22 *	Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
Nov 09 04:51:24 *	Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
Nov 09 04:51:31 *	Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
Nov 09 04:51:33 *	Zakim 18. story telling and test cases [from danc via olivier]
Nov 09 04:51:37 *	Zakim 19. offline support [from mjs via Hixie]
Nov 09 04:51:38 <MikeSmith>	... [need to consider how to address the expectations of the authoring community]
Nov 09 04:51:39 *	Zakim 20. media elements [from mjs via Hixie]
Nov 09 04:51:41 *	Zakim 21. HTML 5 for authors [from karl via Hixie]
Nov 09 04:51:43 *	Zakim gives 30 second speaker warning to karl
Nov 09 04:51:47 *	Zakim gives 15 second speaker warning to karl
Nov 09 04:51:55 *	anne has the same problem as Dan
Nov 09 04:52:03 *	Zakim chimes: speaking time is up, karl
Nov 09 04:52:11 <mauro>	q?
Nov 09 04:52:11 *	Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:52:21 <Hixie>	there are 12 items
Nov 09 04:52:23 <Hixie>	at the moment
Nov 09 04:53:17 <MikeSmith>	song for Håkon: 6ish people raise hands
Nov 09 04:53:17 *	Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
Nov 09 04:53:26 <MikeSmith>	song for Håkon, 6ish people raise hands
Nov 09 04:53:26 *	Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
Nov 09 04:53:30 <MikeSmith>	wtf
Nov 09 04:53:38 <MikeSmith>	 . song for Håkon, 6ish people raise hands
Nov 09 04:53:38 *	Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
Nov 09 04:53:58 *	MikeSmith notes he ain't keeping count of show of hands
Nov 09 04:53:58 *	Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
Nov 09 04:54:11 <tlr>	http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/explain.html
Nov 09 04:54:18 <tlr>	whooopos
Nov 09 04:54:24 <tlr>	s/http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/explain.html//
Nov 09 04:55:51 <smedero>	mjs: do you have a public URL for your CSS animation demo? (I have the URL for the WebKit blog entry on it)
Nov 09 04:56:18 -->	chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:57:26 <MichaelC>	q+ to ask that when the sessions are scheduled, the title, time, and location be added to the agenda page
Nov 09 04:57:26 *	Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:57:41 <mjs>	smedero: I will post it publicly soon
Nov 09 04:57:46 <Hixie>	q?
Nov 09 04:57:46 *	Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
Nov 09 04:57:51 <mjs>	smedero: I only finished this version right before presenting
Nov 09 04:57:58 <smedero>	alright, no rush... just compiling info for the issue. :)
Nov 09 04:58:00 <Hixie>	agenda?
Nov 09 04:58:00 *	Zakim sees 13 items remaining on the agenda:
Nov 09 04:58:01 *	Zakim 6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
Nov 09 04:58:02 *	Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:58:04 *	Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
Nov 09 04:58:05 <mjs>	smedero: last version used content that I couldn't redistribute
Nov 09 04:58:06 *	Zakim 9. data tables [ben]
Nov 09 04:58:08 *	Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
Nov 09 04:58:11 *	Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
Nov 09 04:58:13 *	Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
Nov 09 04:58:15 *	Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
Nov 09 04:58:18 *	Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
Nov 09 04:58:21 *	Zakim 18. story telling and test cases [from danc via olivier]
Nov 09 04:58:22 *	Zakim 19. offline support [from mjs via Hixie]
Nov 09 04:58:23 *	Zakim 20. media elements [from mjs via Hixie]
Nov 09 04:58:24 *	Zakim 21. HTML 5 for authors [from karl via Hixie]
Nov 09 04:58:26 -->	molly (mollyholzs@63.116.222.46) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 04:59:09 <ChrisWilson>	agenda -16
Nov 09 04:59:09 *	Zakim notes agendum 16, versioning, dropped
Nov 09 05:01:39 <--	MichaelC has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.9/2007102514])
Nov 09 05:02:19 <--	smedero has quit (Quit: smedero)
Nov 09 05:03:20 <MikeSmith>	[we are effectively breaking until 4pm ... ]
Nov 09 05:04:12 *	MikeSmith notes that coffee and whatever is down on lobby floor
Nov 09 05:04:14 <molly>	wondering if it's worth coming over for the remainder of the day or having a little me time and catching up tomorrow. Advice?
Nov 09 05:04:27 <--	myakura_ has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 05:04:27 <--	MarcinHanclik has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 05:04:31 <--	justin has quit (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
Nov 09 05:04:53 <--	lm has quit (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
Nov 09 05:05:26 <--	gavin has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 05:05:45 <--	Nick has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 05:06:05 -->	hober (ted@68.107.112.172) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:06:05 <--	howcome has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 05:07:50 <MikeSmith>	Present+ ScottVesey
Nov 09 05:08:51 -->	smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:09:00 <--	olivier has quit (Quit: Leaving)
Nov 09 05:09:08 <--	Markus has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 05:10:30 -->	MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:10:32 -->	gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:11:22 <Lachy>	MikeSmith, now that the break is on, is there someone who can organise a skypecast?  Just need someone with skype and a decent mic to pick up the speakers
Nov 09 05:12:56 <oedipus>	if there is my skypename is oedipusnj -- marcos captured the first 2 demos (at least) on his webcam
Nov 09 05:13:38 -->	Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:14:06 <--	PIon has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
Nov 09 05:16:22 <Lachy>	oedipus, are you participating via IRC only?
Nov 09 05:17:10 <oedipus>	yes
Nov 09 05:17:41 *	oedipus notes that marcos tried to skype me in but it wouldn't work whether he or i initiated the call
Nov 09 05:18:07 <mauro>	zakim, pointer?
Nov 09 05:18:07 <Zakim>	I don't understand your question, mauro.
Nov 09 05:18:13 <mauro>	RRSAgent, pointer?
Nov 09 05:18:13 <RRSAgent>	See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-irc#T20-18-22
Nov 09 05:19:18 <--	smedero has quit (Quit: smedero)
Nov 09 05:19:48 <oedipus>	the first demo is (temporarily at): http://63.119.45.135/aria.avi - note it takes quite some time to load, but eventually will
Nov 09 05:23:20 -->	smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:24:11 -->	justin (justin@63.119.45.74) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:28:25 -->	arun (chatzilla@64.236.139.249) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:33:16 <Lachy>	oedipus, has that server got a slow upload speed? It's not going very fast at all
Nov 09 05:33:27 <--	timbl has quit (Quit: timbl)
Nov 09 05:33:32 <--	kingryan has quit (Quit: kingryan)
Nov 09 05:36:02 -->	myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:36:02 <oedipus>	lachy, it took forever and a day, and then suddenly started playing -- for some reason, won't play before the whole thing is buffered, so when it started, i saved it locally and then listened to it
Nov 09 05:36:18 <Lachy>	yeah, I'm trying to save it locally
Nov 09 05:36:42 <Lachy>	what codec is it using?
Nov 09 05:36:52 *	oedipus asks lachy -- if all else fails, i can try skyping you the file
Nov 09 05:37:02 <oedipus>	it is an AVI file
Nov 09 05:37:04 <Lachy>	Could it be converted to ogg theora or something with a bit better compression?
Nov 09 05:37:17 <Lachy>	AVI is just a container format. It could contain almost any codec
Nov 09 05:37:30 <oedipus>	i have a codec conversion utility -- i'll "see" what i can do
Nov 09 05:37:48 <Lachy>	run it through ffmpeg2theora
Nov 09 05:38:29 <Lachy>	sending the file by skype would be much slower, skype isn't good for transferring large files
Nov 09 05:38:58 <molly>	still loading over here
Nov 09 05:39:32 <Lachy>	40 to 50 minutes remaining at this speed :-(
Nov 09 05:39:49 *	oedipus just offered it as an option because marcos skyped it to me in less than 10 minutes
Nov 09 05:40:45 <Lachy>	well, you could try it if you have a decent upload speed. Otherwise, I can get marcos to skype it to me when he gets back to his computer
Nov 09 05:40:50 <--	jgraham_ has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
Nov 09 05:40:58 <Lachy>	my skype name is lachlanhunt
Nov 09 05:41:14 <oedipus>	thanks, lachy -- let me try to convert it first
Nov 09 05:42:08 <Lachy>	you can get ffmpeg2theora here. It's a command line utility for windows. http://v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora/download.html
Nov 09 05:42:19 <--	myakura has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 05:42:22 -->	paullewis (paullewis@82.242.109.217) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:43:07 <Hixie>	agenda+ aria session [no lead yet]
Nov 09 05:43:07 *	Zakim notes agendum 22 added
Nov 09 05:44:43 <--	Dennis has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 05:46:00 -->	Dennis (forty4@63.119.44.226) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:46:30 -->	kingryan (rking3@67.164.15.57) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:48:53 <MikeSmith>	Present+ NickVanDenBleeken
Nov 09 05:49:01 <MikeSmith>	RRSAgent, make minutes
Nov 09 05:49:02 <RRSAgent>	I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
Nov 09 05:49:05 <anne>	Zakim, who is here?
Nov 09 05:49:05 <Zakim>	sorry, anne, I don't know what conference this is
Nov 09 05:49:06 <Zakim>	On IRC I see kingryan, Dennis, paullewis, arun, justin, smedero, Nick, gavin, MarcinHanclik, hober, molly, chaals, Marcos, Julian, mjs, raman, aaronlev, mikko_honkala, anthony,
Nov 09 05:49:10 <anne>	lol
Nov 09 05:49:11 <Zakim>	... tlr, Bert, shepazu, dsinger, karl, tantek, mauro, dbaron, ChrisWilson, Philip, MikeSmith, kazuhito, anne, aroben, Zakim, Lachy, matt, dglazkov, hasather, oedipus, tH, ROBOd,
Nov 09 05:49:16 <Zakim>	... Lionheart, Hixie, heycam, laplink, bogi, gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, jmb, Kuruma, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, drry, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu,
Nov 09 05:49:18 <Zakim>	... RRSAgent
Nov 09 05:49:31 <molly>	is there any other female involved in this wg discussion?
Nov 09 05:49:56 <oedipus>	we don't know whether RRSAgent is male, female or indifferent...
Nov 09 05:50:16 <molly>	oedipus I think we can probably agree that the agent is genderless :D
Nov 09 05:50:48 *	gsnedders has just been reading a book by Kate Bornstien that predictably goes on about gender being binary
Nov 09 05:51:21 -->	robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:51:30 *	anne is being silly
Nov 09 05:51:37 *	anne .. well, was, above
Nov 09 05:51:52 <gsnedders>	anne… be silly? oh wow.
Nov 09 05:52:02 <smedero>	molly, there were two females present in the conference room earlier... I don't enough of these folks to tell you whos who.
Nov 09 05:52:16 -->	myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:52:20 *	oedipus wonders if jane is jane, and not tarzan, posing as jane
Nov 09 05:52:32 <MikeSmith>	s/TravisFromMicrosoft/TravisLeithead/
Nov 09 05:52:43 <molly>	smedero thanks! I am just curious. I'll be back in the room tomorrow 
Nov 09 05:52:48 <MikeSmith>	s/fromBoeing//
Nov 09 05:53:00 <molly>	i'm not bringing it up to call foul or anything, it's just a point of curiosity for me
Nov 09 05:53:09 <smedero>	molly, no I understand.
Nov 09 05:53:27 <MikeSmith>	s/Mauro/Mauro/Nunez/
Nov 09 05:53:33 <MikeSmith>	RRSAgent, make minutes
Nov 09 05:53:33 <RRSAgent>	I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
Nov 09 05:53:34 <smedero>	particularly in light of the A List Apart survey recently...
Nov 09 05:53:53 <jane>	oedipus: har :\
Nov 09 05:53:54 <molly>	smedero yes! that was an amazing survey. Frightening in some ways
Nov 09 05:54:22 <--	robburns has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 05:54:24 <gsnedders>	it had issues for people not in full-time jobs though, IIRC
Nov 09 05:54:27 <MikeSmith>	s/LesliefromLosAlamos/LeslieMansell/
Nov 09 05:54:47 <MikeSmith>	s/NickFromLosAlamos//
Nov 09 05:55:03 <MikeSmith>	RRSAgent, make minutes
Nov 09 05:55:03 <RRSAgent>	I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
Nov 09 05:55:17 <MikeSmith>	Present+ DanielZucker
Nov 09 05:55:38 <dbaron>	mjs: "I'm trying to schedule based on facts, not moral imperatives."
Nov 09 05:55:53 -->	glazou_soreThroat (daniel@63.119.45.165) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:55:57 <--	chaals has quit (Client exited)
Nov 09 05:55:59 <MikeSmith>	Present+ TonyGrasso
Nov 09 05:56:20 -->	chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:56:36 -->	jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:57:37 <molly>	Leslie's here, now I know there's some additional girl power in the room ;)
Nov 09 05:58:13 <MikeSmith>	Present+ JustinThorp
Nov 09 05:58:22 <--	ROBOd has quit (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
Nov 09 05:58:52 *	Lachy notes that skype is working between me and marcos
Nov 09 05:59:41 <--	Nick has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 05:59:49 <--	ChrisWilson has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 05:59:56 -->	howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 05:59:58 -->	Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:00:39 *	oedipus thanks marcos for camcording
Nov 09 06:01:10 <mauro>	s/Mauro/MauroNunez/
Nov 09 06:01:17 <Marcos>	no probs... next time I'll bring a proper web cam
Nov 09 06:01:17 <mauro>	RRSAgent, draft minutes
Nov 09 06:01:17 <RRSAgent>	I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html mauro
Nov 09 06:01:54 <Marcos>	If I can, I'm going to put the Aria video on youtube.... 
Nov 09 06:02:54 <shepazu>	Zakim, room for 2?
Nov 09 06:02:55 <Zakim>	ok, shepazu; conference Team_(html-wg)21:03Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 2203Z
Nov 09 06:02:58 <karl>	http://quality.mozilla.org/
Nov 09 06:03:04 <shepazu>	oops
Nov 09 06:03:05 <MikeSmith>	Present+ GregThompson
Nov 09 06:03:47 <shepazu>	sorry about that
Nov 09 06:04:30 <MikeSmith>	Present+ HennySwan
Nov 09 06:04:36 <MikeSmith>	Zakim, room to groove?
Nov 09 06:04:36 <Zakim>	I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
Nov 09 06:04:49 <MikeSmith>	Zakim, room to get a freak on?
Nov 09 06:04:49 <Zakim>	I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
Nov 09 06:05:10 <kingryan>	Lachy: could I join the skype call? my skype username is ryansking
Nov 09 06:05:10 *	mauro smiles at Mike's requests
Nov 09 06:05:39 <Lachy>	I'll see if we can set up a skypecast. Hold on.
Nov 09 06:06:22 <--	justin has quit (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
Nov 09 06:09:08 -->	Chris (CWilso@63.119.44.171) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:09:25 ---	Chris is now known as ChrisWilson
Nov 09 06:09:48 <--	aaronlev has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 06:10:00 <ChrisWilson>	[media elements discussion begins]
Nov 09 06:10:20 <--	anne has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 06:10:35 -->	dsinger_ (dsinger@63.119.45.128) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:10:41 <--	myakura has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 06:10:57 ---	Notify: olivier is online (mcclure.w3.org).
Nov 09 06:10:57 -->	olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:10:57 <--	dsinger has quit (Quit: Leaving)
Nov 09 06:12:48 <MikeSmith>	Scribenick: MikeSmith
Nov 09 06:12:49 MikeSmith mauro Marcos molly mjs MarcinHanclik matt mikko_honkala 
Nov 09 06:13:19 <MikeSmith>	mjs : Does anybody have problems with the current parts of the HTML5 spec for audio and video?
Nov 09 06:13:36 <MikeSmith>	DanC: yeah, I do. I think we should take it out.
Nov 09 06:13:55 <--	howcome has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 06:14:33 -->	jgraham_ (jgraham@63.119.45.250) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:15:03 <Lachy>	skypecast wouldn't work
Nov 09 06:15:22 -->	justin (justin@63.119.45.74) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:15:29 *	Lachy oedipus, what's your skype nick again?
Nov 09 06:16:02 <MikeSmith>	Håkon: first thing that happens when people turn on the OLPC machine is, they see themselves ... 
Nov 09 06:16:09 <MikeSmith>	... because it has a built-in camera ... 
Nov 09 06:16:15 <karl>	http://www.laptopgiving.org/
Nov 09 06:16:17 -->	aaronlev_ (chatzilla@63.119.44.88) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:16:19 <MikeSmith>	... also Tom-Tom jamming application ... 
Nov 09 06:16:20 ---	aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
Nov 09 06:16:31 <karl>	http://laptopfoundation.org/
Nov 09 06:16:58 <MikeSmith>	[Håkon demo'ing video stuff in special Opera build]
Nov 09 06:17:06 *	oedipus lachy oedipusnj
Nov 09 06:18:00 <jgraham_>	aria people are squatting in rthe empty xsl-fo room
Nov 09 06:18:24 -->	myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:18:34 <MikeSmith>	[Håkon attempting to show Green-Winged Macaw page from Wikipedia, but having problems]
Nov 09 06:20:19 -->	KevinLawver (kplawver@63.119.45.212) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:21:26 <MikeSmith>	ChrisWilson : As I understand it, the goal is to make it easier and more declarative to support videos
Nov 09 06:21:44 <karl>	http://livedocs.adobe.com/contribute/4/using_admin_en/wwhelp/wwhimpl/common/html/wwhelp.htm?context=Using_and_Administering_Contribute&file=00000214.htm
Nov 09 06:21:57 <MikeSmith>	mjs : there's not reason why it needs to be more complicated than <img> for the simple case
Nov 09 06:22:40 <MikeSmith>	DanC: I think the Design Principles document can help grow a set of requirements
Nov 09 06:22:57 -->	anne (annevk@63.119.45.192) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:23:05 <MikeSmith>	DaveSinger: The justification might help us figure out when we have completed the design.
Nov 09 06:23:43 <Hixie>	The agenda is here: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
Nov 09 06:23:57 <MikeSmith>	ChrisWilson : I think some of the goals that mjs has brought up require the Kodak discussion.
Nov 09 06:24:07 ---	Hixie has changed the topic to: HTML WG meeting - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
Nov 09 06:24:15 <Bert>	agenda+ why are there IMG, VIDEO, EMBED and AUDIO but no TEXT? (Text is one of the most often asked extension for CSS, but it really belongs in HTML, not CSS.)
Nov 09 06:24:15 *	Zakim notes agendum 23 added
Nov 09 06:24:24 -->	Yves (ylafon@128.30.52.30) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:24:24 <MikeSmith>	http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
Nov 09 06:24:43 <Hixie>	Bert: there is -- <img>, <video>, <embed>, <audio>, <iframe>
Nov 09 06:24:59 <mjs>	MikeSmith: "codec", not "kodak"
Nov 09 06:25:08 <MikeSmith>	ah
Nov 09 06:25:14 <anne>	I don't think the ARIA session is being minuted
Nov 09 06:25:22 <smedero>	Video codec starter issue: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/7
Nov 09 06:25:33 <smedero>	(starting to collect emails and such)
Nov 09 06:25:37 <oedipus>	there are people in the pf channel, but no notes
Nov 09 06:25:39 <MikeSmith>	s/Kodak/codec/
Nov 09 06:25:56 *	MikeSmith was wondering wtf Kodak had to do with anything ... 
Nov 09 06:27:04 *	karl Mikesmith with SVG
Nov 09 06:27:09 <MikeSmith>	ChrisWilson : [re discussion with Dave Singer], you just introduced some "risk of editorship"
Nov 09 06:27:53 <--	glazou_soreThroat has quit (Connection reset by peer)
Nov 09 06:28:13 *	karl has difficulties to find a good answer for people who say: If video
Nov 09 06:28:28 <--	dglazkov has quit (Quit: dglazkov)
Nov 09 06:28:29 *	kingryan is listening via skype now
Nov 09 06:28:31 -->	glazou_soreThroat (daniel@63.119.45.165) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:28:34 *	karl .... why not <todo>  or <shoppinglist>
Nov 09 06:29:50 <dsinger_>	we need video to get consistent attributes, dom, accessibility;  to expose its time-based behavior;  to make it a 1st-class citizen that is properly integrated; ...
Nov 09 06:30:03 *	Lachy if anyone else wants to join the skype conf call, let me know your skype nick.
Nov 09 06:30:07 <MikeSmith>	Present+ JonFerraiolo
Nov 09 06:31:14 *	oedipus still has no audio, so will drop to make room for others
Nov 09 06:32:00 <MikeSmith>	ChrisWilson : there is an open question about how do we do synchronization
Nov 09 06:33:50 <--	glazou_soreThroat has quit (Connection reset by peer)
Nov 09 06:35:01 -->	glazou (daniel@63.119.45.165) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:35:11 <MikeSmith>	Present+ DanielGlazman
Nov 09 06:35:22 *	glazou was already on IRC before
Nov 09 06:35:43 <MikeSmith>	[mjs prepares to do demo of video in Webkit] 
Nov 09 06:36:48 <MikeSmith>	mjs : this in in the Webkit nightlies
Nov 09 06:37:04 <MikeSmith>	[demoing example of opacity/compositing]
Nov 09 06:38:12 <MikeSmith>	mjs : we will be adding the controls attribute soon ... 
Nov 09 06:38:34 -->	Marcos_ (chatzilla@12.6.206.9) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 06:38:39 <MikeSmith>	... and fully supporting soon the complete HTML5 spec for <video>
Nov 09 06:39:07 <myakura>	WebKit Nightlies http://nightly.webkit.org/
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Nov 09 06:41:42 <karl>	http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL3/smil-extended-media-object.html#edef-video
Nov 09 06:42:47 <karl>	<par>
Nov 09 06:42:47 <karl>	  <video id="carvideo" src="car.rm" region="videoregion" title="Car video"
Nov 09 06:42:47 <karl>	         alt="Illustration of relativistic time dilation and length 
Nov 09 06:42:47 <karl>	              contraction." 
Nov 09 06:42:48 <karl>	         longdesc="carvideodesc.html" readIndex="3"/>
Nov 09 06:42:50 <karl>	  <audio id="caraudio" src="caraudio.rm" region="videoregion" 
Nov 09 06:42:52 <karl>	         title="Car presentation voiceover" begin="bar.begin"/>
Nov 09 06:42:54 <karl>	  <animation id="cardiagram" src="car.svg" region="animregion" 
Nov 09 06:42:56 <karl>	         title="Diagram of the car" readIndex="2"/>
Nov 09 06:42:58 <karl>	  <img id="scvad" src="scv.png" region="videoregion" 
Nov 09 06:43:00 <karl>	         title="Advertisement for Sugar Coated Vegetables"
Nov 09 06:43:02 <karl>	         readIndex="1"/>
Nov 09 06:43:04 <karl>	</par>
Nov 09 06:43:10 <smedero>	doh. dupe issues. :-/
Nov 09 06:43:35 <MikeSmith>	smedero - no problem ... I'll just delete the one I opened
Nov 09 06:44:11 <smedero>	Ahh, thanks
Nov 09 06:45:33 *	Bert did a quick HTML and SMIL comparison: video=video, audio=audio, iframe=text, ??=textstream, ??=animation, img=img, embed=??
Nov 09 06:45:42 <smedero>	useful page: http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/video/
Nov 09 06:45:55 <smedero>	Ahh, thanks Bert - I'm just about to open up an issue on that
Nov 09 06:45:58 <karl>	where did you put it Bert?
Nov 09 06:46:04 <anne>	object=textstream, object=animation ?
Nov 09 06:46:27 <Bert>	Nowhere, Karl, except here.
Nov 09 06:46:36 <smedero>	Karl, I'm creating an issue
Nov 09 06:46:45 <smedero>	for <video> and SMIL issues
Nov 09 06:46:57 <Bert>	object=ref
Nov 09 06:47:05 <karl>	Bert I think that would be better to have a full comparison not only names but attributes/features too
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Nov 09 06:47:35 <MikeSmith>	Tex: we need a statement of scope
Nov 09 06:48:06 <MikeSmith>	ChrisWilson : I would like to see us define how autoplay works, and how synchronization works
Nov 09 06:48:18 <dsinger_>	I think how autoplay works is defined
Nov 09 06:48:42 <MikeSmith>	Hixie : current spec is that each <video> element is independent 
Nov 09 06:49:11 <MikeSmith>	Håkon: We should err on the side of simplicity
Nov 09 06:49:35 <MikeSmith>	... what's current in there is a little too much more than most people would need
Nov 09 06:49:49 <MikeSmith>	s/current in there/currently in there/
Nov 09 06:50:32 <smedero>	ChrisWilson: should there be a separate issue for <video>'s autoplay implementation?
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Nov 09 06:51:41 <Lachy>	autoplay is well defined here http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#loading
Nov 09 06:52:38 <MikeSmith>	RESOLUTION: Add AudioVideoScope page to the Wiki
Nov 09 06:52:43 <karl>	http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AudioVideoScope
Nov 09 06:53:46 <karl>	Lachy, you have the wrong uri :p - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#loading
Nov 09 06:54:13 <MikeSmith>	mjs : YouTube, MySpace, Apple's QuickTime trailer site, Wikipedia are good sites for video examples
Nov 09 06:54:17 <Lachy>	karl, no I don't. The specs are identical
Nov 09 06:54:47 <Hixie>	http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AudioVideoScope
Nov 09 06:54:52 <Hixie>	feel free to stick stuff on there
Nov 09 06:55:18 <MikeSmith>	mjs : If every major browser could support one common video codec, then authors could post just one video format on their site (instead of multiple ones).
Nov 09 06:55:56 <MikeSmith>	... Ogg, patent risk is more unknown
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Nov 09 06:56:36 *	Lachy just wishes some big company would take the risk with Ogg. The world needs a good, well supported, patent free format!
Nov 09 06:56:39 <MikeSmith>	... MPEG4, open standard, technically pretty good, used by Apple, haven't been sued yet, but patented and the patent licenses are not cheap ... 
Nov 09 06:56:59 <MikeSmith>	... many mobile devices have built-in support for H264 (MPEG4) ... 
Nov 09 06:57:17 <MikeSmith>	... third candidate is Windows Media ... 
Nov 09 06:57:31 <Lachy>	Dirac will be another good alternative when it's finished
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Nov 09 06:57:49 <Lachy>	it's being developed by the BBC, and since they're big, they're taking the risk of being sued for it
Nov 09 06:57:49 <MikeSmith>	dsinger_ : H263 ... which is also widely supported in mobiles
Nov 09 06:58:20 <Lachy>	or animated GIF! ;-P
Nov 09 06:58:22 <MikeSmith>	mjs : tradeoff of IP issues vs. codec quality
Nov 09 06:59:03 <karl>	http://dirac.sourceforge.net/
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Nov 09 06:59:07 <Philip>	Lachy, animated PNG would allow higher quality videos :-)
Nov 09 06:59:19 <--	KevinLawver has quit (Quit: KevinLawver)
Nov 09 06:59:27 <Lachy>	but we know GIF patents have expired already :-)
Nov 09 07:00:02 <MikeSmith>	ChrisWilson : Our legal people do not believe that Ogg Theora has much of any chance of being free from patent issues.
Nov 09 07:01:01 <karl>	http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/implementations.shtml
Nov 09 07:01:19 <karl>	http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/index.shtml
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Nov 09 07:01:43 <karl>	http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/licensing.shtml
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Nov 09 07:03:27 <MikeSmith>	ACTION: Dave Singer to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
Nov 09 07:03:27 *	trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
Nov 09 07:03:27 <trackbot-ng>	Sorry, couldn't find user - Dave
Nov 09 07:03:27 *	RRSAgent records action 17
Nov 09 07:03:29 <--	howcome has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 07:05:08 <MikeSmith>	trackbot-ng, reload
Nov 09 07:05:08 <trackbot-ng>	Reloading Tracker config
Nov 09 07:05:08 *	trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
Nov 09 07:05:08 *	trackbot-ng found 12 users
Nov 09 07:05:08 <trackbot-ng>	Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
Nov 09 07:05:13 *	karl thinks the discussions are much more civil face to face than in the html wg mailing list and irc. And I find that quite cool.
Nov 09 07:05:14 <MikeSmith>	trackbot-ng, status
Nov 09 07:05:14 *	trackbot-ng knows about the following 12 users: Anne, Chris, Shawn, Dan, David, Michael(tm), Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
Nov 09 07:05:28 <MikeSmith>	ACTION: David to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
Nov 09 07:05:28 *	trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
Nov 09 07:05:28 <trackbot-ng>	Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David
Nov 09 07:05:28 <trackbot-ng>	Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dsinger2, hyatt)
Nov 09 07:05:28 *	RRSAgent records action 18
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Nov 09 07:05:59 <MikeSmith>	ACTION: dsinger2 to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
Nov 09 07:05:59 *	trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
Nov 09 07:05:59 *	RRSAgent records action 19
Nov 09 07:05:59 <trackbot-ng>	Created ACTION-4 - Draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list. [on David Singer - due 2007-11-15].
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Nov 09 07:10:09 <kingryan>	spec section reference: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#browser
Nov 09 07:10:56 <kingryan>	right?
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Nov 09 07:13:08 <smedero>	kingryan, yes. or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-browser.html#browser for folks who loathe the single page version.
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Nov 09 07:15:53 *	oedipus notes that the single page version tends to cause some browsers...
Nov 09 07:16:09 *	oedipus continues -- to crash
Nov 09 07:16:14 <Lachy>	simple video test cases: http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/video/001
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Nov 09 07:16:45 <Lachy>	if someone wants to write some more video test cases, that would be aweome. You can use the videos here http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/support/
Nov 09 07:16:51 <smedero>	Lachy: the FAIL videos you produced are indirectly hilarious.
Nov 09 07:16:59 <Lachy>	how so?
Nov 09 07:17:12 <smedero>	in the playing off internet lingo sense
Nov 09 07:17:17 <--	chaals has quit (Client exited)
Nov 09 07:17:25 *	Lachy doesn't get it
Nov 09 07:17:34 <oedipus>	lachy: what UA are you using? the only thing i get is "You should see a video below" and then "FAIL"
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Nov 09 07:17:53 <Lachy>	oedipus, you need a recent build of Opera with Video support
Nov 09 07:18:01 <oedipus>	ok
Nov 09 07:18:11 <Lachy>	there was one released on labs.opera.com yesterday
Nov 09 07:18:14 -->	gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 07:19:00 <Lachy>	http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/a-call-for-video-on-the-web-opera-vid/
Nov 09 07:21:09 <Philip>	(Ooh, 3d canvas too?)
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Nov 09 07:21:37 *	Lachy is looking for some examples of Hixie's old, really badly written test cases :-)
Nov 09 07:22:12 <Lachy>	here's one http://hixie.ch/tests/html40/test41-1b.html - note that pass condition contains red!
Nov 09 07:22:45 <ChrisWilson>	video] http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/127
Nov 09 07:24:02 <kingryan>	+1 to mercurial
Nov 09 07:24:14 -->	aroben_ (aroben@17.203.12.72) has joined #html-wg
Nov 09 07:24:49 <gsnedders>	+1 to Mercurial
Nov 09 07:24:56 <kingryan>	it separates the acts of creating a changeset and publishing a changeset
Nov 09 07:25:09 <--	aroben has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 09 07:25:33 <kingryan>	every working copy is a a full repository
Nov 09 07:26:12 <gsnedders>	(I'd say any distributed SCM over any centralised one, though I have a preference for Mercurial)
Nov 09 07:26:36 <Philip>	(Opera says: cannot find d3d9.dll :-( )
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Nov 09 07:29:07 <kingryan>	welcome tantek to the skype conf call
Nov 09 07:30:20 <tantek>	greetings. who on the call is actually at the meeting? i suggest everyone else on the call click the mute (mic with slash) button.
Nov 09 07:30:30 ---	Lachy has changed the topic to: HTML WG meeting - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F (Ping Lachy if you want to join the skype conf call)
Nov 09 07:30:40 <Lachy>	tantek, Marcos is at the meeting
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Nov 09 07:35:27 <anne>	http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/focus/ has my three tests
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Nov 09 07:37:04 <Lachy>	anne, 003 needs to give instructions to click the text
Nov 09 07:37:39 *	tantek thought he heard someone say "I can run MacIE"
Nov 09 07:38:16 <anne>	Lachy, no
Nov 09 07:38:30 <anne>	Lachy, maybe to not click the test
Nov 09 07:38:32 <anne>	text
Nov 09 07:39:00 <Lachy>	oh, right.
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Nov 09 07:42:33 <smedero>	tantek:  you did
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Nov 09 07:43:24 <kingryan>	i think someone just made tantek's day
Nov 09 07:45:28 *	Lachy wonders if someone can put all these test cases up somewhere so I can see what people have made
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Nov 09 07:48:08 <janet>	http://www.guitaretab.com/t/the-clash/3563.html
Nov 09 07:49:09 <tantek>	is that a test page janet?
Nov 09 07:49:40 <kingryan>	tantek: I think it's an agenda item :)
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Nov 09 07:53:07 <ChrisWilson>	heheheh
Nov 09 07:53:21 <ChrisWilson>	Yes, Janet, that's an agenda item.
Nov 09 07:54:26 <ChrisWilson>	tantek - you're correct.  Maciej found a bug in MacIE.  :)  I paid him back by finding a couple of bugs in Safari.
Nov 09 07:56:14 <tantek>	nicely done ChrisWilson
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Nov 09 07:56:52 *	anne is interested in the tests from ChrisWilson
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Nov 09 07:58:00 <Lachy>	I wrote another test case http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/video/004
Nov 09 07:58:01 *	kingryan thinks that competitive test writing could be good 
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Nov 09 07:58:30 <Lachy>	http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html
Nov 09 07:58:50 <Lachy>	that's for whoever it was Hixie just told to look them up
Nov 09 07:59:23 <MikeSmith>	Lachy - thanks. That was Tex Texin asking about that
Nov 09 07:59:31 <MikeSmith>	kingryan - yeah
Nov 09 07:59:51 <MikeSmith>	make it more fun
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Nov 09 08:00:20 <smedero>	for the guys discussing text selection range support: http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/range_intro.html
Nov 09 08:00:27 <kingryan>	this might also be of interest: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/testsuitedocumentation.html
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Nov 09 08:01:11 <anne>	maybe e-mail them to www-archive@w3.org
Nov 09 08:01:22 <Lachy>	yeah, that would be good
Nov 09 08:01:24 <MikeSmith>	anne - yeah
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Nov 09 08:05:39 <ChrisWilson>	anne - agree, I'll mail mine.
Nov 09 08:07:19 <ChrisWilson>	okay, time to head back to the hotel and make dinner plans.
Nov 09 08:07:28 <--	molly has quit (Quit: see you folks tomorow)
Nov 09 08:07:36 <ChrisWilson>	see you all tomorrow