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03:23:52 <anne2> So I think Timed Text is a no-op
03:24:27 <anne> Six namespaces, duplicating tons of functionality in HTML and CSS, etc.
03:24:55 <anne> s/no-op/no-go/
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11:37:57 <Philip> Ooh, Opera supports -apple-dashboard-region in CSS
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11:56:20 <Lachy_> yeah, but I think it's a bit strange it was added with the -apple- prefix instead of -o-
11:56:53 <Lachy_> AFIAK, apple widgets aren't compatible with opera widgets anyway
12:01:23 <Philip> Does WebKit still support -apple-dashboard-region? The source code only mentions -webkit-dashboard-region, but maybe they do a s/-apple-/-webkit-/ on the input or something
12:03:29 <Philip> Hmm, Opera doesn't even support some of the dashboard-region syntax from the Apple documentation
12:03:38 <Dashiva> The support is very, very minimal
12:05:02 <Philip> O9.2 reserialises style="-apple-dashboard-region: dashboard-region(control circle 15px 15px 75px 15px);" into STYLE='apple-dashboard-region: circle'
12:05:18 <Philip> but O9.5 handles that correctly
12:05:39 <Philip> ... because it doesn't actually reserialise the style attribute at all
12:07:09 <Philip> ... so actually O9.5 reserialises into style="-apple-dashboard-region: circle 15px 15px 75px 15px"
12:07:33 <Philip> so O9.2 does look about as minimal as possible, but O9.5 is somewhat better :-)
12:08:22 <Dashiva> Well, let me know if you can make it do something useful
12:08:51 <Philip> I can't see it doing anything in normal web pages, and I don't care about widgets so I have no idea if it does anything there :-p
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13:46:05 <MikeSmith> Kuruma - you around?
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15:17:03 <Lachy_> hey, will there be an audio stream today?
15:17:28 <MikeSmith> Lachy_ - nope
15:17:30 <DanC_lap> hmm... task forces in other languages... great idea for HTML WG
15:18:14 <Lachy_> ok, I guess I'll just have to follow on IRC then
15:18:54 <DanC_lap> hmm... MikeSmith , I don't mind if somebody audiocasts the HTML WG meeting
15:19:20 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - so let's get somebody to do that
15:19:26 <DanC_lap> I'd have to check with Chris W.
15:19:32 <DanC_lap> any volunteers?
15:19:45 <DanC_lap> yes, do try to find somebody, MikeSmith 
15:20:09 <MikeSmith> What mechanism were we using to stream the talk yesterday?
15:20:16 <DanC_lap> something kinda elaborate
15:20:24 <DanC_lap> Ralph knows about it
15:20:30 <DanC_lap> and Ted
15:20:43 <MikeSmith> I will check with Ralph and/or Ted then
15:20:45 <DanC_lap> maybe not that elaborate; I think it's on/near media.w3.org
15:21:31 <MikeSmith> k
15:21:37 <oedipus> quick temporary fix? http://www.nch.com.au/streaming/index.html
15:21:57 <MikeSmith> Probably we don't need to have anything set up for the HTMLWG session tomorrow, right?
15:22:08 <hsivonen> just checking: is the f2f starting at 13:30?
15:22:31 <MikeSmith> hsivonen - aye
15:23:04 <Lachy_> can someone please ping me if/when an audio stream is set up and when the meeting starts?
15:23:17 <MikeSmith> anybody hip to ices2?
15:23:25 <MikeSmith> that's what they were using yesterday
15:23:31 <oedipus> re NCH BroadWave you can use it for free provided "This software has two modes. A free version which has full features but requires you to have a link to our site on every page with a link to the stream."
15:23:33 <MikeSmith> we need a machine with ices2 installed
15:23:39 <MikeSmith> and we need a decent microphone
15:23:50 <MikeSmith> microphones are in short supply
15:24:06 <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
15:24:08 <oedipus> BroadWave runs on linux, mac, and windows and is compatible with IE, FF, Safari
15:24:22 <MikeSmith> oedipus - OK
15:24:35 <MikeSmith> I guess the main thing we really need is a mic
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15:25:23 <MikeSmith> How many mics do we rip on the daily? me say many money me say many many man
15:25:25 <MikeSmith> y
15:28:26 <DanC_lap> aye, 13:30 Boston time. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
15:29:02 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has changed the topic to: HTML WG meeting starts 13:30 in Charles View (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
15:29:13 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has changed the topic to: HTML WG meeting starts 13:30 in Charles View  http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
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15:38:58 <Lachy_> oedipus, in your response to the survey about publihsing the HTML5 draft, I don't understand your comment about there being competing specs. They aren't competing. The WHATWG spec and the W3C spec are identical (except for the metadata at the top)
15:40:06 <DanC_lap> ROOM CHANGE...
15:43:14 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has changed the topic to: HTML WG meeting starts 13:30 in Empress Ballroom on the 14th floor  http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
15:43:58 <oedipus> lachy - if that is so, then why not commit to a single draft and single track for HTML5?  all feedback is welcome, but the only working draft should be the one housed in W3C space; WHAT WG can continue to develop its own version of HTML5, but the normative draft should be the one based upon the original WHAT WG submission to the W3C
15:45:08 <Lachy_> oedipus, the point is we don't want two separate drafts. I don't see the problem in mirroring the same draft in 2 places
15:45:08 <gsnedders> oedipus: not everyone can contribute to the W3C draft sadly
15:45:53 <Lachy_> indeed. the W3C's rules about member organisations and prevent some people from joining the HTMLWG if they are employees of W3C members
15:46:20 <Lachy_> ... and their employers don't nominate them
15:46:24 <MikeSmith> oedipus - what you describe is what the current draft available on the W3C site already is, it seems to me at least
15:46:38 <MikeSmith> it is a single draft
15:46:45 <MikeSmith> just mirrored, as Lachy_ points out
15:46:52 <karl> gsnedders: can you explain why not everyone can contribute?
15:47:01 <gsnedders> karl: Lachy_ just did so
15:47:02 <Lachy_> oedipus, it seems to me that what you're asking us to do, by letting the WHATWG develop it's own version, is exactly what you're saying we shouldn't do
15:47:35 <karl> Lachy: W3C doesn't prevent them to join the group. 
15:47:53 <gsnedders> karl: how can they, then?
15:47:54 <oedipus> why then mark the WHAT WG draft as a "Call For Comments — 27 October 2007".  and shouldn't the rest of the introductory text at least mention that this is a mirror of the draft in W3C space, and encourage feedback to both fora?
15:48:03 <karl> by going through their employers.
15:48:20 <Lachy_> also, some people choose not to join the HTMLWG due to the volume of traffic and nonsense that goes on there sometimes, whereas they can easily subscribe and contribue to WHATWG since it's much easier to follow
15:48:24 <gsnedders> karl: but if the W3C didn't have that requirement, we wouldn't be in this situation at the first time
15:48:33 <gsnedders> *in the first place
15:48:40 <karl> gsnedders: patent policy is a feature not a bug
15:49:17 <oedipus> lachy: i'm not going to deny anyone's right to develop or comment upon a specification, but there needs to be a central repository for feedback and issue tracking
15:49:19 <gsnedders> karl: there are people who can't join the WG because their employer won't let them join the WG. it's not a theoretical issue.
15:49:23 <Lachy_> oedipus, because it was a snapshot of the spec as it was on that date, and because publishing a spec there doesn't have to go through the same politics that it goes through in the HTMLWG
15:49:36 <karl> gsnedders: I would love to know who
15:49:50 <oedipus> lachy, then why submit the spec to the W3C in the first place?
15:50:13 <Lachy_> because we needed the patent policy for other groups of people and organisations to participate
15:50:23 <MikeSmith> oedipus - a central place for issue tracking is doable
15:50:35 <oedipus> right, the W3C issue tracker DanC set up
15:50:37 <MikeSmith> a central place for feedback doesn't seem doable to me
15:51:06 <MikeSmith> any editor can possibly get feedback from a lot of different places
15:51:06 <Lachy_> oedipus, feedback comes from many places around the web, beyond even the HTMLWG and WHATWG lists.
15:51:09 <gsnedders> karl: I know that Sam Ruby couldn't join for quite a while because of it, and I've heard of others
15:51:20 <karl> s/politics/community life/
15:51:25 <MikeSmith> ... feedback from multiple mailing lists, etc.
15:51:28 <oedipus> MikeSmith: but if the feedback funneled to the WHAT WG isn't funneled to the HTML WG, we have separate conversations occuring over ostensively the same document
15:51:33 <karl> gsnedders: yes but he finally joined
15:51:41 <karl> nominated by his ac rep
15:51:48 <MikeSmith> oedipus - we have that anyway, with any spec
15:51:49 <gsnedders> karl: I've heard of others, though I can't remember off the top of my head
15:52:10 <MikeSmith> even within the W3C, discussions may take place on multiple mailing lists
15:52:15 <karl> gsnedders: I heard about black helicopters too flying low above cities
15:52:56 <oedipus> yes, mikeS, but we don't have 2 specs that are self-identified as different drafts -- if what wg wants to host a snapshot, it should be of the W3C draft, and the W3C draft should be pointed to from the WHAT WG draft
15:52:56 <MikeSmith> It seems to me it is the responsibility of HTMLWG members to join those other lists and follow conversations taking place there too
15:52:59 <Lachy_> I said politics and meant it, I didn't mean community life.
15:53:05 <karl> MikeSmith: ++
15:53:08 <MikeSmith> ... if they want to be able to keep up with everything
15:53:54 <Lachy_> I think it's so ridiculous that we have to hold a vote just to get a FPWD out the door
15:53:57 <karl> Lachy: you will learn it will take times, it took me time too. But I will not try to convince you, it would be useless. :) It's part of life cycle
15:53:59 <gsnedders> oedipus: and should the W3C HTML WG draft point to the WHATWG draft, or does this only apply one way?
15:54:06 <oedipus> MikeS: i'm not against outside feedback, i am concerned about 2 competing drafts, one branded with the W3C style and logo and one branded with the WHAT WG style and logo
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15:55:12 <Lachy_> oedipus, the logo at the top doesn't make any difference. Both specs are identical in every important aspect
15:55:16 <karl> oedipus: take it like translations of W3C specs. it is possible to translate W3C specs in other languages. 
15:55:39 <karl> the HTML 5 spec is under w3c document license. 
15:55:43 <oedipus> gsnedders: it applys only one way -- the WHAT WG draft was submitted to the HTML WG and a number of companies asked that it be considered the basis for the HTML WG's work -- if that is the case, then why have 2 different drafts?
15:55:52 <karl> and that all matters
15:56:00 <karl> the rest is not very interesting
15:56:01 <MikeSmith> oedipus - we don't have 2 specs, we have one spec ... and I don't think the copies at the the WHATWG and W3C sites are "self identified as different drafts"
15:56:12 <Lachy_> oedipus, why does it matter that the spec is mirrored?
15:56:19 <oedipus> karl: it is possible to translate, but is there a need to translate from english to english?
15:56:36 <oedipus> it doesn't matter that the spec is mirrored, as long as it is the same spec, full stop.
15:56:45 <karl> then it is
15:56:52 <MikeSmith> oedipus - and I don't understand how you see them as competing drafts
15:56:53 <Lachy_> it is the same spec
15:56:58 <Lachy_> different branding doesn't matter at all
15:57:46 <MikeSmith> there is nothing the W3C team can or would want to do to prevent any editors or anybody else from mirroring a copy of a draft if the editors chooses to do so
15:57:46 <karl> oedipus: whatwg feedback is a good source of input for HTML 5 work.
15:58:14 <MikeSmith> oedipus - It is the same spec.
15:58:35 <gsnedders> oedipus: do you want to disregard several years worth of comments?
15:58:53 <oedipus> i'm not denying that whatwg feedback is a good source of input, but it is but one source, and the draft should be developed in one place -- if it is truly a mirror of the draft in W3C space, it should explicitly state that, and should actually mirror, rather than reflect
15:59:48 <oedipus> gsnedders: no, i'm not disregarding "several years of feedback" i'm concerned that it will take many many more years of feedback under current conditions to arrive at a truly stable state
16:00:26 <MikeSmith> oedipus - The source is developed in one place, and published in two places.
16:00:38 <MikeSmith> Philip - no, it would not be difficult
16:01:07 <oedipus> i'm still wondering what lachy meant by "both specs are identical in every important aspect"
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16:01:43 <Philip> (Hmm, I was going to try fixing the multipage generator to be less bad, but I think I forgot about that months ago...)
16:01:54 <oedipus> if they are mirrors of each other, they should be identical in EVERY aspect
16:02:20 <Lachy_> oedipus, the header of the spec is not really that important. The important aspects include everything from the Abstract down.
16:02:58 <oedipus> if that's the case, then why insist on having 2 versions of ostensively the same spec?  it simply doesn't make any sense...
16:03:06 <DanC_lap> the header of the spec is quite important; it's about endorsement, branding, etc. the HTML 5 spec currently has two publishers. could be worse.
16:03:18 <MikeSmith> oedipus - who would you suggest should enforce this identical-in-every-aspect constraint?
16:03:20 <Philip> Lachy_: They have different abstracts
16:03:27 <Lachy_> s/Abstract/TOC/
16:03:33 <Philip> (and different "status of this document"s)
16:03:33 <MikeSmith> ... and how would you imagine they'd be able to do it?
16:03:37 <oedipus> 2 publishers, 2 fora, 2 streams
16:03:51 <DanC_lap> it makes sense to me that there's still momentum in the WHATWG, oedipus 
16:03:53 <MikeSmith> Like I said, anybody is free to mirror anything from the W3C site if they choose to.
16:04:07 <DanC_lap> no, they're not, MikeSmith 
16:04:13 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - why not?
16:04:28 <DanC_lap> we have a mirroring policy
16:04:58 <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, see http://www.w3.org/1999/10/21-mirroring-policy
16:04:58 <Lachy_> the W3C editor's draft is lacking a copyright statement
16:05:15 <DanC_lap> it's not a mirror; it's separately published
16:05:42 <oedipus> DanC: you hit on my concern -- it is separately published -- how and who ensures that they are in sync?
16:06:07 <DanC_lap> hixie does
16:06:10 <oedipus> by the way, DanC, regrets for not physically attending the f2f - medical problems made it feasible only to participate remotely
16:06:10 <Lachy_> oedipus, they are both generated from the same source by the same editor
16:06:17 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - so I will qualify my statement by saying that anybody is free to mirror anything as long as they comply with the mirroring policy
16:06:28 <DanC_lap> yes, sorry to hear that, oedipus ; your regrets were relayed to me by mutual friends
16:07:00 <DanC_lap> yes, and the mirroring policy is basically: if you want to mirror anything, you need to mirror everything; we'll help you.
16:07:08 <oedipus> i'm not anti-whatwg, i just want to ensure that there is one draft that is the basis for mirroring
16:07:12 <MikeSmith> ah
16:07:18 <Lachy_> it's also important that the WHATWG publish it because it has a much more liberal copyright than the W3C does
16:07:20 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - dinnet know that
16:07:37 <Philip> Would the W3C licences permit publishing of modified versions of the spec, like for http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/spec.html ?
16:07:46 <Lachy_> don't think so
16:07:52 <gsnedders> there are people like myself and anne who have our own specs with parts of text based upon HTML 5 text
16:08:16 <Lachy_> Philip, http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/copyright-documents-20021231
16:08:17 <oedipus> how does the WHAT WG and W3C copyright differences affect the spec?  i raised this as a concern before (also in regards differing copyright statements in WF2)
16:08:30 <DanC_lap> I'm not an expert in what our licenses might allow. We do have a copyright faq http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/IPR-FAQ-20000620
16:08:40 <oedipus> DanC: thanks for the pointers
16:09:00 <DanC_lap> welcome
16:09:18 <oedipus> i just think we need to step back, and align all of the ducks in an orderly row...
16:09:42 <DanC_lap> the ducks seem to be having a pretty good time wandering around
16:09:54 <DanC_lap> if we put out food, they'll come by
16:10:15 <Lachy_> the W3C's document licence does indeed allow copies of the spec to be hosted anywhere, but doesn't allow modifications
16:10:29 <Lachy_> they just require the inclusion of the copyright notice
16:10:31 <oedipus> the momentum of the 2 groups should spur one another, not be mutually exclusive (albeit by individuals' individual choices)
16:11:33 <Lachy_> oedipus, the barrier between the two groups is mostly artificial as far as work on the spec is concerned.
16:11:43 <oedipus> that's why i didn't object to the issuing of the draft, but expressed concerns i would like to allay before giving a thumbs up -- 
16:12:23 <oedipus> lachy: so whatever we can do to break down those artificial barriers, the better the growth and maturity of the HTML5 draft
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16:12:57 <DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status
16:13:59 <DanC_lap> oedipus, hurl me an url for "Marghanita da Cruz's comments"? (cf http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results )
16:14:59 <oedipus> DanC: re the ducks, we should be attempting to get them eating out of the same trough -- or at least to swim in one anothers ponds more often
16:15:10 <DanC_lap> oh, only to some extent
16:15:17 <DanC_lap> yes, ponds more often
16:15:40 <oedipus> DanC: the comments by marghanita da cruz are in her reply to the same question
16:15:47 <DanC_lap> too bad you couldn't make it to the pond here in Boston. :-/
16:16:21 <DanC_lap> ah...
16:16:46 <oedipus> thanks, DanC -- i think my water is getting a bit "stale" here and am chomping at the bit (to mix animal metaphors) to actually get to meet and sit down and discuss thing with others
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16:17:10 <DanC_lap> ACTION DanC: consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
16:17:20 <DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
16:17:20 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-1 - Consider \"inconsistency in the document is the use of examples\" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-15].
16:17:58 <dglazkov> wow, this is cool
16:18:18 <dglazkov> DanC_lap, have a sec?
16:20:13 <oedipus> perhaps what is needed is someone (or someones) to commit issues raised and debated in the WHAT WG fora to the HTML WG's Issue Tracker?
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16:21:22 <Lachy_> oedipus, sure, that can be done for future discussions
16:22:17 <oedipus> lachy: what about the backlog of issues raised by whatwg participants which hixie has often cited?
16:22:21 <Lachy_> but the existing feedback needs to continue to be processed as it currently is, since it would take too much effort to process and log all 3000+ emails hixie has in his archive
16:24:10 <oedipus> it's like every other human endeavor -- the more we work together, the less antagonism (real or perceived) between the 2 working groups, but there has to be 1 draft off of which we are all working, and i believe that to be the draft submitted to the W3C
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16:29:11 <oedipus> DanC: did i ever officially (via the list) report back that i completed my first action item from the last HTML WG telecon?  at 1:10 PM EDT 11/1/2007 i sent the following: 1) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Nov/0001.html and 2) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0007.html (the same post in both places)
16:29:59 <oedipus> i'm also working on the CSS action item, as well
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16:34:05 <mjs> hey everyone
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16:35:21 <aaronlev> DanC_lap: when do you want mike to do the aria demo?
16:35:27 <aaronlev> when does the meeting start, etc.
16:35:34 <oedipus> 13:30
16:35:38 <aaronlev> k
16:35:53 <aaronlev> oedipus: i had to throw out what diego built
16:36:06 <DanC_lap> I haven't picked a time for the aria demo; can we keep it loose? or is somebody coordinating across rooms?
16:36:15 <oedipus> yeah, i noticed that -- i haven't heard back from him yet
16:36:27 <aaronlev> DanC_lap: that's fine as long as we have a ballpark
16:36:31 <aaronlev> we'll come in after lunch
16:36:49 <aaronlev> oedipus: i went back to a prev version of the mozilla.org example and fixed it
16:37:16 <oedipus> aaronlev: good news! hans hillen should also be involved in testing and sample coding
16:37:17 <DanC_lap> aaronlev, does http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 give you enough of a ballpark?
16:37:27 <aaronlev> oedipus: yes he should
16:37:43 <aaronlev> DanC_lap: yes, thanks
16:37:55 <aaronlev> oedipus: the new crash in ff3 was actually 2 separate problems, i have fixes pending
16:38:00 <oedipus> aaronlev: i'll ping hans offline and let him know that he posted his query to the right place
16:38:08 <aaronlev> oedipus: but for now it's wise to avoid sub-sub aria menus with that example in ff3
16:38:42 <aaronlev> oedipus: i want people to put their testing results in the page everyone looks at, can you do that?
16:39:15 <oedipus> aaronlev: i was considering a menu only example to precede the spreadsheet, which introduces 2 concepts -- might be better to demonstrate a menu, before demonstrating a menu in conjunction with another widget
16:39:21 <aaronlev> oedipus: scott haeger just updated it to add Orca results, and I've asked Charles Chen to do it with Fire Vox
16:39:36 <aaronlev> oedipus: mike is going to do a tree view
16:39:37 <oedipus> aaronlev: yes, i will use the test result matrix at mozilla
16:39:43 <aaronlev> i think that's a more valid example anyway
16:39:58 <oedipus> aaronlev: i agree -- plus, the tree views work rather well
16:39:58 <aaronlev> because we can show it using shipping dojo widgets
16:40:12 <oedipus> aaronlev: precisely
16:40:13 <aaronlev> working in actual released software
16:40:52 <aaronlev> oedipus: this is the page that has the compatibility matrix, i really want to keep it up-to-date: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications
16:41:12 <oedipus> aaronlev: i think things will shake out well, now that there's a central repository for test results and a designated list (wai-xtech) for discussion/coordination
16:41:19 <oedipus> aaronlev: thanks for the pointer
16:43:00 <oedipus> aaronlev: chaals mcn was testing the materials with opera on a mac -- don't know if he has any useful data yet or not
16:45:15 <oedipus> DanC: does oedipus: and oedipus, have a different meaning in RRSAgent?  does a colon indicate attribution or an address to another user, or should that be handled with a comma?
16:46:28 <DanC_lap> the RRSAgent/scribe.perl tools treat : as attribution (a la Juliet: Romeo, Romeo ...). In W3C meetings, we tend to use traditional (chicago manual of style) comma for direct address
16:46:59 <oedipus> thanks for the clarification -- i've just followed others' (apparently bad) practices
16:49:00 <DanC_lap> whether the evolution in norms is good or bad is hard to say... it's a bit of a pain given current scribe.perl design
16:49:52 <DanC_lap> I think it's not cost-effective to train people in this channel to reconfigure their IRC clients and such.
16:50:03 <oedipus> agreed
16:50:05 <DanC_lap> I can just use a text editor to supplement scribe.perl
16:52:04 <karl> A new version of scribe.perl is at work with a complete refactoring and test cases. If you need features, it might be good to propose things. Send an email to david booth cc: www-archive
16:53:22 <DanC_lap> does anybody know Philip TAYLOR well enough to understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results better than I do?
16:53:32 <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, do you know him?
16:53:50 <DanC_lap> ah... thanks for the reminder, karl
16:54:11 <DanC_lap> karl, do you have bandwidth to chat with Philip TAYLOR?
16:54:55 <oedipus> DanC: do you mean quote No, we have not yet agreed the Design Principles. Without those, the specification has no formal basis for existence, and premature publication could jeopardise the reputation of the Working Group. unquote?
16:55:16 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - don't know him
16:55:18 <DanC_lap> yes, that one.
16:55:49 <mjs> is it easy to obtain lunch and coffee somewhere at the hotel?
16:55:54 <DanC_lap> do you have bandwidth to phone him or something, MikeSmith ?
16:55:56 <mjs> I'm thinking of heading over soon
16:56:13 <DanC_lap> it's straightforward though expensive, I think, mjs
16:56:31 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - I'd be glad to call him if you think that would help
16:56:31 <mjs> other option is I could walk the other way from where I'm staying to Central Square
16:56:47 <DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status
16:56:59 <MikeSmith> mjs - there is rumored to be a restaurant about 10 minutes walk
16:57:03 <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, why doesn't trackbot-ng know the other folks in the issue tracking group?
16:57:14 <DanC_lap> I want to give you an action
16:57:17 <oedipus> DanC, i'm not quite sure, and don't know PhilipT personally
16:57:19 <karl> DanC_lap: I can try to discuss with him. :) not sure that he will agree, but I can try. It might be just misunderstandings
16:57:36 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg
16:57:36 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - dunno. I think I may need to ask systeam to add me
16:57:37 <mjs> MikeSmith: I know the area pretty well, just not the hotel
16:57:42 <DanC_lap> right, karl, I'm not asking you to convince him of anything; just listen
16:58:16 <MikeSmith> mjs - they got candy bars and potato chips in the convenience store in the lobby
16:58:17 <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, you're already added to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/ ; somehow trackbot-ng doesn't seem to be consulting that list
16:58:19 <MikeSmith> and cookies
16:58:47 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - will ask on sysreq now
16:58:51 <karl> because there is food at the Galleria Cambridge 
16:59:22 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - hang one
16:59:23 <MikeSmith> on
16:59:33 <MikeSmith> try ACTION: Michael(tm) maybe
16:59:40 <DanC_lap> no... look:
16:59:42 <DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status
16:59:46 <MikeSmith> oh
16:59:50 <MikeSmith> I see now
17:00:51 <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
17:00:51 <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
17:00:51 <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
17:00:58 <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, statsu
17:01:00 <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
17:01:08 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - there you go
17:01:45 <DanC_lap> thanks... now... did it lose the action I gave above? I guess it's easy enough to do again...
17:01:52 <oedipus> DanC: i think PhilipT's position hasn't changed since the first polls -- he'd rather have a statement of design principles released, garner feedback, and hammered into concensus and rereleased before releasing a working draft
17:02:01 <DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
17:02:01 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2 - Consider \"inconsistency in the document is the use of examples\" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-15].
17:02:27 <DanC_lap> oops; dup. oh well
17:02:58 <DanC_lap> I'm gonna assign the formal objection action to MikeSmith cuz he's in the tracker, but you're more than welcome to help, karl
17:03:26 <MikeSmith> karl - �������
17:04:26 <DanC_lap> ACTION: Michael (tm) contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results
17:04:26 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Michael
17:04:41 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - gotta do Michael(tm)
17:04:51 <DanC_lap> ACTION: Michael(tm) contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results
17:04:51 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-3 - Contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-11-15].
17:06:34 <MikeSmith> that breakfast of Twix bar and tea don't quite keep me going
17:07:15 <MikeSmith> can of Guiness Extra Stout at 10:30 helped a bit though
17:07:36 <oedipus> MikeSmith: so, until 13:30 local time, the channel is open for outside the face2face discussions?
17:07:51 <MikeSmith> oedipus - which channel
17:08:18 <DanC_lap> hmm... I think I'm gonna need IRC watchers in the meeting. maybe that'll take care of itself
17:08:40 <oedipus> Mike(tm) Smith, well, if this channel is reserved for the f2f we can move to another? or is there already an html-f2f channel?
17:08:54 <DanC_lap> this is the channel for the ftf
17:08:59 <oedipus> ok
17:09:25 <DanC_lap> people can make side channels for break-outs or whatever, provided they invite RRSAgent along and make logs world-access
17:09:37 <oedipus> will keep the side conversations to a minumum and use the q commands to enter the queue after 13:30
17:10:13 <MikeSmith> oedipus - for q, I guess we'll need to /invite Zakim
17:10:21 <oedipus> DOH!
17:10:41 <MikeSmith> we could go ahead and do now I guess
17:10:54 <DanC_lap> sure
17:10:56 <oedipus> it makes sense to me, but i'm just a schlub
17:11:16 <DanC_lap> I wonder if zakim can be the keeper of the unconference session titles and places!
17:11:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-wg
17:11:40 <DanC_lap> agenda + Welcome/Convene
17:12:14 <DanC_lap> agenda + Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session
17:12:24 <DanC_lap> agenda + ARIA demo Al Gilman]
17:12:33 <DanC_lap> agenda 3 = ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
17:12:46 <DanC_lap> agenda + Data Tables [Ben Millard]
17:13:06 <DanC_lap> agenda + Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [Maciej Stachowiak]
17:13:26 <DanC_lap> agenda + Unconference  pitches
17:13:51 <DanC_lap> this will work great; zakim can time speakers for the 1/2/3 minute unconference pitches
17:14:24 <DanC_lap> Thanks for Zakim, ralph!
17:14:51 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
17:14:56 <DanC_lap> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:14:56 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-irc#T17-14-56
17:16:03 <anne> is there place so sit and WiFi on the sixteenth floor already?
17:18:04 <MikeSmith> anne - dunno. Haven't been up there yet today
17:18:18 <anne> k, thanks
17:19:41 <jgraham_> jgraham_ has joined #html-wg
17:22:14 <aroben> aroben has joined #html-wg
17:24:37 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has joined #html-wg
17:58:33 <robburns> robburns has joined #html-wg
18:03:15 <gavin> gavin has joined #html-wg
18:04:10 <timbl> timbl has joined #html-wg
18:08:26 <hober> hober has joined #html-wg
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18:16:31 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
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18:18:55 <kazuhito> kazuhito has joined #html-wg
18:20:22 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
18:21:43 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #html-wg
18:22:28 <MikeSmith> Lachy - no streaming audio, unfortunately
18:22:45 <MikeSmith> but we may be able to set up a telephone bridge
18:22:52 <MikeSmith> if you want to call in
18:23:07 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
18:26:53 <Philip_> Philip_ has joined #html-wg
18:27:01 <Hixie> in case anyone is on the 16th floor wondering where everyone else is, the meeting is now on the 14th floor
18:27:58 <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
18:28:09 <Hixie> Zakim, agenda?
18:28:09 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
18:28:10 <Zakim> 1. Welcome/Convene [from DanC_lap]
18:28:11 <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
18:28:12 <Zakim> 3. ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
18:28:14 <Zakim> 4. Data Tables [from Ben Millard via DanC_lap]
18:28:16 <Zakim> 5. Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [from Maciej Stachowiak via DanC_lap]
18:28:19 <myakura> myakura has joined #html-wg
18:28:21 <Zakim> 6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
18:28:21 <Nick> Nick has joined #html-wg
18:28:32 <Chris> Chris has joined #html-wg
18:28:35 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #html-wg
18:28:57 <Chris> not yet, just prepping
18:28:59 <lm> lm has joined #html-wg
18:29:00 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft inutes
18:29:00 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft inutes', MikeSmith.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:29:03 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:29:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:29:04 <mauro> mauro has joined #html-wg
18:29:08 <anne> k
18:29:23 <Hixie> Hixie has changed the topic to: HTML WG meeting in Empress Ballroom on the 14th floor - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 - http://esw.w3.org/topic/ZakimDemo
18:29:57 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #html-wg
18:30:08 <Marcos> Marcos has joined #html-wg
18:30:30 <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML Working Group November f2f Day One
18:30:48 <MikeSmith> Chair: DanConnolly, ChrisWilson
18:31:09 <MikeSmith> Present+ KarlDubost
18:31:12 <Lachy> MikeSmith, unfortunately, I can't call in, since I don't have a phone at home.
18:31:29 <MikeSmith> Present+ MikkoHonkala
18:31:32 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #html-wg
18:31:37 <MikeSmith> Present+ MichaelCooper
18:31:54 <Lachy> MikeSmith, it would be good if you could set up skype
18:31:59 <MikeSmith> Present+ MarcinHanclik
18:32:03 <MikeSmith> Lachy - no can do
18:32:06 <justin> justin has joined #html-wg
18:32:12 <MikeSmith> Present+ HenriSivonen
18:32:20 <MikeSmith> Present+ JamesGraham
18:32:33 <MikeSmith> Present+ AnneVanKesteren
18:32:44 <MikeSmith> Present+ fromBoeing
18:32:56 <MikeSmith> Present+ JoshueOConnor
18:33:03 <timbl> timbl has joined #html-wg
18:33:20 <MikeSmith> Present+ MarcusMilke
18:33:32 <MikeSmith> Present+ BobHopgood
18:33:39 <MikeSmith> Present+ Mauro
18:33:47 <MikeSmith> Present+ TexTexin
18:33:53 <smedero> smedero has joined #html-wg
18:34:00 <MikeSmith> Present+ TravisFromMicrosoft
18:34:10 <MikeSmith> Present+ MasatakaYakura
18:34:18 <smedero> Ugh, traffic - just got to the Hyatt.
18:34:26 <MikeSmith> Present+ KazuhitoKidachi
18:34:30 <smedero> Is the meeting on the 14th floor still?
18:34:32 <MikeSmith> Present+ DaveSinger
18:34:45 <MikeSmith> Present+ MaciejStokowiak
18:34:47 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
18:34:49 <smedero> thanks
18:34:57 <MikeSmith> Present+ DavidBaron
18:35:10 <MikeSmith> Present+ LesliefromLosAlamos
18:35:25 <MikeSmith> Present+ NickFromLosAlamos
18:35:36 <MikeSmith> Present+ AaronLeventhal
18:35:43 <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
18:35:57 <karl> karl has joined #html-wg
18:36:00 <anne> Zakim, close agendum 1
18:36:00 <Zakim> agendum 1, Welcome/Convene, closed
18:36:01 <MikeSmith> Zakim, close agendum 1
18:36:02 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:36:04 <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
18:36:05 <Zakim> agendum 1, Welcome/Convene, closed
18:36:06 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:36:07 <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
18:36:10 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #html-wg
18:37:41 <mikko_honkala> mikko_honkala has joined #html-wg
18:37:45 <Markus> Markus has joined #html-wg
18:38:09 <MikeSmith> oedipus - DanC says he would rather not right now, but we can play around later at the break
18:38:28 <smedero> smedero has joined #html-wg
18:38:29 <MikeSmith> I missed a few people when I did the present list
18:38:41 <MikeSmith> So if you are on IRC and don't see your name on the following list:
18:38:53 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:38:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:39:03 <Pion> Pion has joined #html-wg
18:39:12 <mauro> zakim, who is here?
18:39:12 <Zakim> sorry, mauro, I don't know what conference this is
18:39:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see Pion, smedero, Markus, mikko_honkala, dsinger, karl, tantek, timbl, justin, Marcos, MichaelC, mauro, lm, dbaron, ChrisWilson, Nick, myakura, Philip, mjs, MikeSmith,
18:39:17 <Zakim> ... kazuhito, aaronlev, anne, jgraham_, hober, gavin, robburns, aroben, Zakim, Lachy, matt, dglazkov, hasather, oedipus, tH, ROBOd, Lionheart, Hixie, heycam, laplink, bogi,
18:39:21 <Zakim> ... gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, jmb, Kuruma, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, drry, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu, RRSAgent
18:39:22 <karl> [Danc is explaining the process document with a drawing of Ian Hickson]
18:39:25 <MikeSmith> ...then please do a "Present+ YourName" to add yourself to the present list
18:39:26 <MikeSmith> please
18:39:38 <smedero> Present +ShawnMedero
18:39:53 <hober> What if you're in IRC but not at the TP?
18:40:07 <smedero> heh.
18:40:33 <MikeSmith> Present+ NoahMendelsohn
18:40:33 <Hixie> anne: snakes go from the head to the tail
18:40:43 <anne> http://ln.hixie.ch/media/comics/hixie/w3c-snakes-and-ladders.png
18:41:17 <anne> Hixie, oh, so I got them backwards
18:41:20 <MikeSmith> hober - then please do, e.g., YourName_IRC_only or something like that
18:41:29 <ChrisWilson> is this an internationalization difference?  (In the US I think the game is marketed as chutes & ladders)
18:41:32 <anne> (the above ln.hixie.ch image is being discussed)
18:42:01 <MikeSmith> Present+ ShawnHenry
18:42:16 <karl> anne, there are steps you can jump over. Basically there are entrance criterias not exit criterias
18:42:24 <MikeSmith> Present+ OlivierTheroux
18:42:29 <hober> Present+ EdwardOConnor_IRC_only
18:42:30 <MikeSmith> Present+ BertBos
18:42:35 <gsnedders> Present +GeoffreySneddon_IRC_only
18:42:57 <hsivonen> so the snakes went from each stage backwards
18:43:07 <mauro> Meeting: HTML WG F2F Meeting
18:43:15 <Lachy> Present+ LachlanHunt_IRC_only
18:43:25 <jun> jun has joined #html-wg
18:43:27 <gsnedders> Present+ GeoffreySneddon_IRC_only
18:43:29 <MikeSmith> q?
18:43:29 <mauro> q?
18:43:34 <smedero> Present+ ShawnMedero
18:43:45 <gavin_> Present+ GavinSharp_IRC_only
18:44:08 <Dennis> Dennis has joined #html-wg
18:45:32 <dglazkov> Present+ DimitriGlazkov_IRC_only
18:46:26 <karl> Topic: introduction on aria
18:46:30 <MichaelC> ARIA Overview: http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria
18:46:47 <hsivonen> Ben arrived
18:47:02 <MikeSmith> Aron Leventhal speaking about ARIA ... ARIA intro
18:47:08 <ChrisWilson> http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-roadmap/ is a useful start too.
18:47:37 <MikeSmith> 32 or more states in a typical accessibility ABI(?)
18:47:51 <MichaelC> s/ABI(?)/API
18:48:05 <hsivonen> MSAA
18:48:25 <MikeSmith> aaronlev : MSAA (Microsoft Active Accessibility) ... 
18:48:39 <MikeSmith> Mike Spilachi arrives
18:49:11 <MichaelC> s/Spilachi/Squillace
18:49:22 <ChrisWilson> Good overview/start to MSAA is http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms697707.aspx
18:49:23 <MikeSmith> aaronlev : HTML is missing basic things that we have on the desktop ... 
18:49:57 <MikeSmith> ... ridiculous, for example, that we don't have a tree-view [mechanism] in HTML
18:50:06 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #html-wg
18:50:14 <MikeSmith> ... widget toolkit takes care of a lot of the work
18:50:36 <olivier> olivier has joined #html-wg
18:51:03 <gsnedders> The number of common widgets that need to be implemented time and time again with JS is maddening
18:51:07 <MikeSmith> ... because of DOM ability for mutation events, can fire an event for [accessibility needs]
18:51:18 <hsivonen> info on ARIA: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications/Relationship_to_HTML_FAQ
18:51:19 <MikeSmith> ... the hard work is on the side of the JS author
18:51:25 <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
18:51:40 <gsnedders> In parts you'll never get as good accessibility with JS as you would with native widgets
18:51:59 <gsnedders> s/In parts/At times/
18:51:59 <MikeSmith> [getting sound from Mike Spilachi's machine plugged in]
18:52:08 <Bert> Bert has joined #html-wg
18:52:36 <MichaelC> s/Spilachi/Squillace/G
18:52:46 <ChrisWilson> gsnedders - that's the semantic problem ARIA tries to address
18:52:52 <MikeSmith> Marcos is videotaping Mike's demo
18:53:02 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:53:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:53:22 <gsnedders> ChrisWilson: even with the complete ARIA, I still have my doubts about whether we can recreate everything
18:53:34 <gsnedders> [that could be done natively]
18:54:16 <ChrisWilson> by adding all the relevant controls and semantics to HTML, you mean?
18:54:19 <MikeSmith> Mike slows down his JAWS to 20% and mjs jokes it reminds him of TimBL slowed-down take from yesterday
18:55:05 <MikeSmith> [Mike is pressing controls in a webapp and getting feedback from jaws]
18:55:25 <gsnedders> ChrisWilson: the diversity of AT platforms and how they are implemented makes me wonder whether one thing could really support everything
18:55:51 <MikeSmith> Demo is "Happy Time Pizza On-line Ordering System"
18:55:57 <anne> (ARIA is very low-level)
18:56:07 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
18:56:28 <ChrisWilson> that's true, but the idea of ARIA (and similar ATs) is to allow mapping application components to a smaller, more high-level semantic set of controls.
18:56:37 <oedipus> no
18:56:48 <olivier> Mikesmith: I can see the screen, but the URI is a tad long
18:56:57 <ChrisWilson> sorry, not perfect decsription.
18:57:09 <MikeSmith> aaronlev - can you paste in the URL for the demo please
18:57:15 <oedipus> which widget is it -- i can probably get the uri if you tell me
18:57:26 <karl> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/tabpanel/view_xhtml.php
18:57:32 <oedipus> thanks
18:58:02 <ChrisWilson> the idea is to capture the semantic roles of components; there may be multiple different components that act as a "button"
18:58:03 <MichaelC> Most of this demo comes from http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/
18:58:19 <aaronlev> http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dijit/tests/test_Tree.html
18:58:21 <MikeSmith> [mike is now doing Dijit Tree Test demo]
18:58:22 <dglazkov> t.v. raman once mentioned using mobile gmail as the accessible (and quality) equivalent to the full-blown gmail
18:58:33 <anne> ChrisWilson, the idea is that the author implements the accessibility on top of a widget he already created
18:58:34 <dglazkov> perhaps that's the solution
18:58:57 <MikeSmith> mike: If you use Dojo toolkit now, a lot of [this] is already built into the library.
18:59:00 <dglazkov> instead of taking a complex Web app and attaching AT hooks to it
18:59:23 <MikeSmith> aaronlev : Mike is using the standard keys for a tree view
18:59:28 <dglazkov> build your app with simple blocks, available in HTML
18:59:38 <dglazkov> and use JS to enhance the UX
18:59:41 <gsnedders> if I create a slider in JS, is there any way it could behave identically to a native one on OS X using ARIA?
18:59:41 <MikeSmith> mike: just as if I were in Windows Explorer ... just like on a desktop
18:59:42 <ChrisWilson> anne - umm, sort of.  the idea is that the author describes the semantic role of their components, so that accessibility tools can make use of it
18:59:45 <tlr> tlr has joined #html-wg
18:59:49 <oedipus> the dijit tree test works on my FF3 install (last release) with JAWS 8.0.2173
18:59:52 <dglazkov> while providing the opportunity to turn off the enhancement
19:00:18 <MikeSmith> olivier : Is there a specific intonation for indicating [this metadata]
19:00:31 <anne> ChrisWilson, is it used for anything else?
19:00:33 <gsnedders> (even if we ignore the visible part of the UI for now)
19:01:04 <ChrisWilson> anne, the semantic role?
19:01:19 <anne> dglazkov, that's the idea of CSS + XBL basically, if I understand you correctly (but that's more a long term solution :-(
19:01:57 <kingryan> kingryan has joined #html-wg
19:02:16 <MikeSmith> tex: wouldn't you want to say, give me the list of all elements at this level? ... 
19:02:32 <dglazkov> yes.. I guess I just don't like the ARIA proposal, because it's ultimately a dead-end.
19:02:40 <MikeSmith> ... why not just map this to a completely different model?
19:02:51 <oedipus> dglazkov: why do you say it is a dead-end?
19:02:56 <MarcinHanclik> MarcinHanclik has joined #html-wg
19:03:28 <dglazkov> well, oedipus, I may be to harsh in this characterization
19:03:29 <MikeSmith> aaronlev : there probably is a more efficient model from presenting the data for this context ... but it would be something completely foreign to the average desktop user
19:03:57 <anthony> anthony has joined #html-wg
19:03:58 <MikeSmith> aaronlev : JS widgets will always be a reality ... 
19:04:00 <dglazkov> but I think that we shouldn't be taking complex UIs and making them accessible
19:04:01 <Lachy> because it's way too complex for average authors to even think about using and you're relying on the distribution and use of pre-written toolkits for this to be even remotely successful
19:04:10 <mjs> mjs has left #html-wg
19:04:11 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
19:04:13 <mjs> it's a dead end only if all control types covered by AX apis end up available in HTML, and we get enough power to fully customize look and feel of all widgets
19:04:31 <MikeSmith> aaronlev : sometimes the best UI is just one that people [already] know
19:04:37 <oedipus> ARIA is the first step and suffices for generalized markup languages, but the intermediary where specialized knowledge domain markup is used -- consult: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers
19:04:43 <anne> mjs, yeah, CSS is the problem...
19:04:46 <gsnedders> Lachy: most authors just use text/links, though, in fairness
19:05:11 <mjs> anne: I dunno if it's just CSS - HTML doesn't have built-in support for many OS-standard widget types, even in the current HTML5 draft
19:05:12 <jgraham_> Lachy: you rely on prewritten toolkits in desktop apps too; to be fair
19:05:21 <oedipus> mjg, by AX do you mean accessibility (a11y)?
19:05:45 <mjs> oedipus, yes, AX is the abbreviation used by the Mac OS X accessibility APIs
19:05:52 <MikeSmith> Present+ KevinLawver
19:05:56 <oedipus> thanks, i didn't know
19:06:12 <MikeSmith> kevin: Think of something like CoverTunes
19:06:28 <MikeSmith> Hixie : people are still making up their own widgets
19:06:40 <MikeSmith> q?
19:06:51 <oedipus> mjs: the last time i used a mac, i could still see...  it's hard to get agencies for the blind to train on anything other than windows
19:06:55 <hsivonen> s/CoverTunes/CoverFlow/
19:07:11 <mjs> CoverFlow is just a list view with a bonus magical display
19:07:27 <mjs> oedipus, that's too bad - VoiceOver is supposedly pretty good
19:07:51 <MikeSmith> [one more demo from mike now]
19:08:03 <aaronlev> http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/spreadsheet
19:08:21 <Lachy> I used VoiceOver briefly to test it out, and it was remarkebly simple even for me
19:08:27 <MikeSmith> [mike is showing a demo of navigating a table]
19:08:40 <MikeSmith> mike: I hate navigating spreadsheets
19:08:59 <MikeSmith> ... the last thing I want to do is go navigating cell-by-cell through a spreadsheet
19:09:11 <MikeSmith> [mike moving through column headers]
19:09:17 <MichaelC> q+ to say ARIA provides the semantics to allow Assistive Technology (AT) to customize presentation - AT could compete on how they optimize the presentation of particular widgets based on these semantics, but we can't expect authors to provide multiple parallel versions
19:09:49 <MikeSmith> [mike showing how to edit contents of cells]
19:10:11 <mjs> q+ to say that auditory reflection of the visual UI has a strong advantage - enabling collaboration between sighted and blind users
19:10:27 <MikeSmith> [mike hitting Ctrl+Alt to pull up menus]
19:10:29 <karl> q?
19:11:07 <MikeSmith> hsivonen - are the table semantics from HTML only or with ARIA markup?
19:11:36 <MikeSmith> aaronlev - some ARIA to say that the row headers are read-only
19:11:42 <oedipus> q+ to say that auditory reflection of the visual UI is also often necessary in order to get accurate technical assistance
19:12:13 <MikeSmith> [demo finished ... applause ... DanC stands and stretches]
19:12:50 <MikeSmith> [next up is demo from Ben]
19:12:54 <karl> oedipus, we are collecting questions
19:13:17 <oedipus> q-
19:13:19 <MikeSmith> Present+ BenMillard
19:13:25 <mjs> q-
19:13:47 <MikeSmith> [waiting from Ben to get set up]
19:14:03 <MikeSmith> Present+ SeanMedero
19:14:20 <MikeSmith> Present+ PatrickIan
19:14:27 <MikeSmith> Present+ ChrisRowland
19:14:38 <MikeSmith> Present+ SteveFaulkner
19:14:50 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:14:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
19:14:52 <MichaelC> q-
19:15:16 <MichaelC> Regarding customization of presentation: ARIA provides the semantics to allow Assistive Technology (AT) to customize presentation - AT could compete on how they optimize the presentation of particular widgets based on these semantics, but we can't expect authors to provide multiple parallel versions
19:15:17 <olivier> s/PatrickIan/PatrickIon/
19:15:58 <Marcos_> Marcos_ has joined #html-wg
19:16:14 <MikeSmith> [we got musical accompaniment from DanC on the guitar]
19:16:38 <MikeSmith> [Ben Millard introducing topic of data tables]
19:17:10 <anne> He explains: http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
19:17:10 <kazuhito> http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
19:17:36 <lm> lm has joined #html-wg
19:17:59 <MikeSmith> ben: found out there are many tables on the Web that weren't in HTML ... some ASCII tables, some Excel, etc.
19:18:08 <PIon> PIon has joined #html-wg
19:18:38 <MikeSmith> ... found some instances of tables lacking any header rows at all
19:18:47 <ChrisWilson> oedipus, maybe we should make that requirement for all discussion.
19:19:30 <MikeSmith> [Ben is walking us through the "How Authors Indicate Headers" part of page at URL above]
19:21:39 <ChrisWilson> q?
19:21:41 <MikeSmith> q?
19:21:52 <oedipus> ChrisW: sounds good to me -- should i go down into the basement to mix up the medicine?
19:22:20 <MikeSmith> Present+ HÃ¥kon
19:22:57 <MikeSmith> [DanC preparing to do some music]
19:24:08 <Hixie> IH: I'm encouraged by these numbers
19:24:26 <Hixie> (they indicate higher quality tables are more common than i expected)
19:24:43 <MikeSmith> [getting ready for demo from Maciej]
19:25:11 <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0040
19:26:08 <MikeSmith> [Maciej beginning his demo]
19:26:58 <ChrisWilson> [mjs demoing arbitrary affine transforms thru CSS]
19:27:22 <ChrisWilson> agenda+ song for Hakon [Dan]
19:27:59 <karl> so anne can talk
19:28:08 <MikeSmith> ... showing cross-fading ... menu boxes growing as he mouses overs them ... notes that this can be doing using Javascript but this uses CSS
19:28:18 <MikeSmith> ... has really good fallback behavior
19:28:45 <MikeSmith> ... if you view same content in a browser that doesn't support the animation properties
19:28:55 <MikeSmith> ... no special hardware being used
19:29:13 <MikeSmith> Lachy : because it's cool, like us
19:30:28 <ChrisWilson> karl, I was hearing the Ginsu knife TV ad...
19:30:38 <dglazkov> screenshots!
19:30:54 <myakura_> myakura_ has joined #html-wg
19:30:56 <karl> might be a cultural thing
19:31:02 <MikeSmith> [maciej is showing the markup source and CSS]
19:31:02 <mikko_honkala_> mikko_honkala_ has joined #html-wg
19:31:05 <MarcinHanclik> MarcinHanclik has joined #html-wg
19:31:07 <Marcos_> Marcos_ has joined #html-wg
19:31:18 <MikeSmith> ... -webkit-transition-duration
19:31:20 <aaronlev_> aaronlev_ has joined #html-wg
19:31:34 <MikeSmith> ... -webkit-transform
19:31:47 <karl> http://webkit.org/blog/130/css-transforms/
19:32:19 <anne> dglazkov, someone makes a movie, so maybe later
19:33:10 <MikeSmith> maciej: this demo maybe shows a need for extensions to form controls
19:33:47 <MikeSmith> ... <button type=toggle> or <button type=radio>
19:34:01 <smedero> I'm on it
19:34:51 <anne> I think that in that case it doesn't match to radio really well
19:35:03 <anne> Which typically has a single one selected
19:35:07 <MikeSmith> "but wait, there's more" was invented by RonCo
19:35:11 <anne> (no toggling behavior)
19:35:20 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
19:35:39 <ChrisWilson> q+ for versioning pitch
19:35:40 <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronco
19:35:50 <Hixie> Zakim, agenda?
19:35:50 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
19:35:52 <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
19:35:55 <hsivonen> q+ to pitch conformance checking test case discussion
19:35:55 <Zakim> 3. ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
19:35:56 <Zakim> 4. Data Tables [from Ben Millard via DanC_lap]
19:35:57 <Zakim> 5. Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [from Maciej Stachowiak via DanC_lap]
19:35:58 <Hixie> zakim, close item 2
19:35:59 <Zakim> 6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
19:36:00 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : you gotta put "q+ to ..."
19:36:01 <Zakim> 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
19:36:03 <Zakim> agendum 2, Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session, closed
19:36:05 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:36:06 <Zakim> 3. ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
19:36:07 <Hixie> Zakim, close item 3
19:36:07 <Zakim> agendum 3, ARIA demo [Al Gilman], closed
19:36:08 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:36:08 <ChrisWilson> q+ to give versioning pitch
19:36:09 <Zakim> 4. Data Tables [from Ben Millard via DanC_lap]
19:36:25 <Hixie> Zakim, close item 4
19:36:25 <Zakim> agendum 4, Data Tables, closed
19:36:26 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:36:27 <Zakim> 5. Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [from Maciej Stachowiak via DanC_lap]
19:36:31 <Hixie> Zakim, close item 5
19:36:31 <Zakim> agendum 5, Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer, closed
19:36:32 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:36:33 <Zakim> 6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
19:36:46 <ChrisWilson> MikeSmith, thanks, forgot to use "to" rather than for"
19:36:48 <Hixie> q+ Ben to pitch for more info on tables
19:36:54 <jgraham_> q+ for test case organisation
19:36:54 <raman> raman has joined #html-wg
19:36:58 <Hixie> zakim, take up item 6
19:36:58 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Unconference  pitches" taken up [from DanC_lap]
19:37:02 <ChrisWilson> Zakim, take up item 6
19:37:02 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Unconference  pitches" taken up [from DanC_lap]
19:37:21 <Hixie> Zakim, time speakers for 2 minutes
19:37:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'time speakers for 2 minutes', Hixie
19:37:26 <Hixie> Zakim, time speakers at 2 minutes
19:37:26 <Zakim> ok, Hixie
19:37:28 <jgraham_> q+ to give test case organisation
19:37:29 <MikeSmith> Zakim, time speakers at 2 minutes
19:37:29 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith
19:38:32 <Hixie> q+ Hixie to pitch for status thingy
19:38:56 <Hixie> q+ Hixie to pitch for test thingy
19:39:18 <olivier> q+ danc to talk about "testing is hard"
19:39:33 <dbaron> ack hsivonen
19:39:33 <Zakim> hsivonen, you wanted to pitch conformance checking test case discussion
19:40:19 <karl> q+ to ask about explaining systematic testing
19:41:02 <olivier> q?
19:41:23 <olivier> ack C
19:41:23 <Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to give versioning pitch
19:41:23 <dbaron> ack ChrisWilson
19:41:36 <karl> q-
19:42:08 <olivier> ack b
19:42:08 <Zakim> Ben, you wanted to pitch for more info on tables
19:42:49 <howcome> howcome has joined #html-wg
19:43:01 <olivier> ack jg
19:43:01 <Zakim> jgraham_, you wanted to give test case organisation
19:43:10 <mjs> mjs has left #html-wg
19:43:11 <anne> Henri wants to talk about systematic validator testing
19:43:16 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
19:43:20 <mjs> q+ to pitch for offline support
19:43:22 <anne> Chris wants to talk about versioning, backwards compat, etc.
19:43:26 <mjs> q+ to pitch for media elements
19:43:34 <MikeSmith> jgraham_ points out that we have accumulated a small pile of disorganized test cases ... 
19:43:39 <anne> Ben wants to talk about data tables (header association, etc.)
19:44:01 <karl> q+ to pitch for HTML 5 for author
19:44:03 <MikeSmith> ... what I want is to have a discussion about what test cases we need, how to best organizes the ones we already got
19:44:03 <anne> James wants to talk about organizing existing testcases, licensing tests, etc.
19:44:07 <olivier> ack H
19:44:07 <Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to pitch for status thingy and to pitch for test thingy
19:44:32 <MikeSmith> Hixie : spec has various sections with varying levels of stability ... 
19:44:32 <anne> Ian wants to talk about stability annotation within the specification (status thingy)
19:44:51 <olivier> ack H
19:44:52 <MikeSmith> ... would like to have a way to annotate stability of different parts of spec
19:45:15 <anne> Ian wants to teach people to write tests
19:45:28 <MikeSmith> Hixie : tutorial session on how to write test cases
19:45:33 <olivier> agenda+ writing tests [hixie]
19:45:44 <olivier> q?
19:45:53 <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
19:45:53 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
19:45:54 <Zakim> 6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
19:45:56 <Zakim> 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
19:45:57 <Zakim> 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
19:46:03 <olivier> agenda+ data tables
19:46:05 <MikeSmith> Hixie : You will write test cases and I will tell you what you are doing wrong [laughs]
19:46:08 <MikeSmith> mjs : session or sweatshop?
19:46:15 <olivier> agenda+ systematic validator testing
19:46:19 <Julian> Julian has joined #html-wg
19:46:29 <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
19:46:29 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
19:46:30 <Zakim> 6. Unconference  pitches [from DanC_lap]
19:46:31 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft niutes
19:46:31 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft niutes', MikeSmith.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:46:31 <Zakim> 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
19:46:32 <Zakim> 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
19:46:33 <Zakim> 9. data tables [from olivier]
19:46:34 <olivier> agenda+ organizing existing testcases 
19:46:35 <Zakim> 10. systematic validator testing [from olivier]
19:46:36 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:46:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
19:46:40 <Hixie> agenda+ writing the spec status stuff [Hixie]
19:46:44 <Hixie> agenda?
19:46:48 <MikeSmith> I like the word niutes
19:46:48 <olivier> agenda+ versioning
19:47:09 <ChrisWilson> agenda+ discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype
19:47:11 <olivier> agenda+ organizing existing testcases [jgraham]
19:47:18 <olivier> agenda+ versioning [chriswilson]
19:47:19 <Marcos_> Marcos_ has joined #html-wg
19:47:24 <olivier> agenda+ systematic validator testing [henri]
19:47:26 <olivier> ack d
19:47:26 <Zakim> danc, you wanted to talk about "testing is hard"
19:47:31 <olivier> agenda?
19:47:40 <olivier> agenda+ story telling and test cases [danc]
19:47:47 <MikeSmith> DanC: Storytelling and test cases ... 
19:48:03 <olivier> zakim, drop agendum 10
19:48:03 <Zakim> agendum 10, systematic validator testing, dropped
19:48:10 <olivier> zakim, drop agendum 11
19:48:10 <Zakim> agendum 11, organizing existing testcases, dropped
19:48:32 <MikeSmith> ... karl has some great slides on this
19:48:40 <ChrisWilson> q?
19:48:49 <ChrisWilson> ack mjs
19:48:49 <Zakim> mjs, you wanted to pitch for offline support and to pitch for media elements
19:48:49 <olivier> agenda 9 =  data tables [ben]
19:48:57 <MikeSmith> ack mjs
19:49:03 <olivier> agenda?
19:49:06 <Hixie> agenda+ offline support [mjs]
19:49:16 <Hixie> agenda+ media elements [mjs]
19:49:24 <olivier> agenda 13 = versioning [chrisW]
19:49:53 <MikeSmith> mjs: offline support ... we have done some implementation work, I know Mozilla has also
19:50:00 <ChrisWilson> q?
19:50:04 <ChrisWilson> ACK KARL
19:50:04 <Zakim> karl, you wanted to pitch for HTML 5 for author
19:50:09 <olivier> zakim, drom agendum 13
19:50:09 <Zakim> I don't understand 'drom agendum 13', olivier
19:50:14 <olivier> zakim, drop agendum 13
19:50:14 <Zakim> agendum 13, versioning [chrisW], dropped
19:50:19 <Hixie> agenda+ HTML 5 for authors [karl]
19:50:28 <Markus> Markus has joined #html-wg
19:51:09 <olivier> q?
19:51:10 <ChrisWilson> q?
19:51:19 <Hixie> agenda?
19:51:22 <MikeSmith> karl : with HTML5 we have a big clash with [previous expections] of the community toward W3C specs ... 
19:51:47 <MikeSmith> ... [need to consider how to address the expectations of the authoring community]
19:52:20 <mauro> q?
19:52:30 <Hixie> there are 12 items
19:52:32 <Hixie> at the moment
19:53:26 <MikeSmith> song for HÃ¥kon: 6ish people raise hands
19:53:35 <MikeSmith> song for HÃ¥kon, 6ish people raise hands
19:53:39 <MikeSmith> wtf
19:53:47 <MikeSmith>  . song for HÃ¥kon, 6ish people raise hands
19:54:20 <tlr> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/explain.html
19:54:27 <tlr> whooopos
19:54:33 <tlr> s/http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/explain.html//
19:56:00 <smedero> mjs: do you have a public URL for your CSS animation demo? (I have the URL for the WebKit blog entry on it)
19:56:27 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg
19:57:35 <MichaelC> q+ to ask that when the sessions are scheduled, the title, time, and location be added to the agenda page
19:57:50 <mjs> smedero: I will post it publicly soon
19:57:55 <Hixie> q?
19:58:00 <mjs> smedero: I only finished this version right before presenting
19:58:07 <smedero> alright, no rush... just compiling info for the issue. :)
19:58:09 <Hixie> agenda?
19:58:14 <mjs> smedero: last version used content that I couldn't redistribute
19:58:35 <molly> molly has joined #html-wg
19:59:18 <ChrisWilson> agenda -16
20:03:29 <MikeSmith> [we are effectively breaking until 4pm ... ]
20:04:23 <molly> wondering if it's worth coming over for the remainder of the day or having a little me time and catching up tomorrow. Advice?
20:06:13 <hober> hober has joined #html-wg
20:07:59 <MikeSmith> Present+ ScottVesey
20:09:00 <smedero> smedero has joined #html-wg
20:10:39 <MarcinHanclik> MarcinHanclik has joined #html-wg
20:10:41 <gavin> gavin has joined #html-wg
20:11:31 <Lachy> MikeSmith, now that the break is on, is there someone who can organise a skypecast?  Just need someone with skype and a decent mic to pick up the speakers
20:13:05 <oedipus> if there is my skypename is oedipusnj -- marcos captured the first 2 demos (at least) on his webcam
20:13:47 <Nick> Nick has joined #html-wg
20:16:31 <Lachy> oedipus, are you participating via IRC only?
20:17:19 <oedipus> yes
20:18:16 <mauro> zakim, pointer?
20:18:16 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mauro.
20:18:22 <mauro> RRSAgent, pointer?
20:18:22 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-irc#T20-18-22
20:19:57 <oedipus> the first demo is (temporarily at): http://63.119.45.135/aria.avi - note it takes quite some time to load, but eventually will
20:23:29 <smedero> smedero has joined #html-wg
20:24:20 <justin> justin has joined #html-wg
20:28:34 <arun> arun has joined #html-wg
20:33:24 <Lachy> oedipus, has that server got a slow upload speed? It's not going very fast at all
20:36:10 <myakura> myakura has joined #html-wg
20:36:11 <oedipus> lachy, it took forever and a day, and then suddenly started playing -- for some reason, won't play before the whole thing is buffered, so when it started, i saved it locally and then listened to it
20:36:27 <Lachy> yeah, I'm trying to save it locally
20:36:49 <Lachy> what codec is it using?
20:37:10 <oedipus> it is an AVI file
20:37:13 <Lachy> Could it be converted to ogg theora or something with a bit better compression?
20:37:25 <Lachy> AVI is just a container format. It could contain almost any codec
20:37:39 <oedipus> i have a codec conversion utility -- i'll "see" what i can do
20:37:56 <Lachy> run it through ffmpeg2theora
20:38:38 <Lachy> sending the file by skype would be much slower, skype isn't good for transferring large files
20:39:06 <molly> still loading over here
20:39:41 <Lachy> 40 to 50 minutes remaining at this speed :-(
20:40:53 <Lachy> well, you could try it if you have a decent upload speed. Otherwise, I can get marcos to skype it to me when he gets back to his computer
20:41:07 <Lachy> my skype name is lachlanhunt
20:41:23 <oedipus> thanks, lachy -- let me try to convert it first
20:42:16 <Lachy> you can get ffmpeg2theora here. It's a command line utility for windows. http://v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora/download.html
20:42:31 <paullewis> paullewis has joined #html-wg
20:43:15 <Hixie> agenda+ aria session [no lead yet]
20:46:09 <Dennis> Dennis has joined #html-wg
20:46:39 <kingryan> kingryan has joined #html-wg
20:49:02 <MikeSmith> Present+ NickVanDenBleeken
20:49:10 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:49:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
20:49:14 <anne> Zakim, who is here?
20:49:14 <Zakim> sorry, anne, I don't know what conference this is
20:49:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see kingryan, Dennis, paullewis, arun, justin, smedero, Nick, gavin, MarcinHanclik, hober, molly, chaals, Marcos, Julian, mjs, raman, aaronlev, mikko_honkala, anthony,
20:49:19 <anne> lol
20:49:20 <Zakim> ... tlr, Bert, shepazu, dsinger, karl, tantek, mauro, dbaron, ChrisWilson, Philip, MikeSmith, kazuhito, anne, aroben, Zakim, Lachy, matt, dglazkov, hasather, oedipus, tH, ROBOd,
20:49:24 <Zakim> ... Lionheart, Hixie, heycam, laplink, bogi, gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, jmb, Kuruma, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, drry, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu,
20:49:26 <Zakim> ... RRSAgent
20:49:40 <molly> is there any other female involved in this wg discussion?
20:50:04 <oedipus> we don't know whether RRSAgent is male, female or indifferent...
20:50:24 <molly> oedipus I think we can probably agree that the agent is genderless :D
20:51:30 <robburns> robburns has joined #html-wg
20:52:00 <gsnedders> anne… be silly? oh wow.
20:52:10 <smedero> molly, there were two females present in the conference room earlier... I don't enough of these folks to tell you whos who.
20:52:25 <myakura> myakura has joined #html-wg
20:52:41 <MikeSmith> s/TravisFromMicrosoft/TravisLeithead/
20:52:52 <molly> smedero thanks! I am just curious. I'll be back in the room tomorrow 
20:52:56 <MikeSmith> s/fromBoeing//
20:53:09 <molly> i'm not bringing it up to call foul or anything, it's just a point of curiosity for me
20:53:18 <smedero> molly, no I understand.
20:53:35 <MikeSmith> s/Mauro/Mauro/Nunez/
20:53:42 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:53:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
20:53:42 <smedero> particularly in light of the A List Apart survey recently...
20:54:02 <jane> oedipus: har :\
20:54:03 <molly> smedero yes! that was an amazing survey. Frightening in some ways
20:54:33 <gsnedders> it had issues for people not in full-time jobs though, IIRC
20:54:36 <MikeSmith> s/LesliefromLosAlamos/LeslieMansell/
20:54:55 <MikeSmith> s/NickFromLosAlamos//
20:55:11 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:55:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
20:55:26 <MikeSmith> Present+ DanielZucker
20:55:46 <dbaron> mjs: "I'm trying to schedule based on facts, not moral imperatives."
20:56:01 <glazou_soreThroat> glazou_soreThroat has joined #html-wg
20:56:08 <MikeSmith> Present+ TonyGrasso
20:56:28 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg
20:56:44 <jun> jun has joined #html-wg
20:57:46 <molly> Leslie's here, now I know there's some additional girl power in the room ;)
20:58:21 <MikeSmith> Present+ JustinThorp
21:00:05 <howcome> howcome has joined #html-wg
21:00:07 <Nick> Nick has joined #html-wg
21:01:19 <mauro> s/Mauro/MauroNunez/
21:01:25 <Marcos> no probs... next time I'll bring a proper web cam
21:01:25 <mauro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:01:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html mauro
21:02:03 <Marcos> If I can, I'm going to put the Aria video on youtube.... 
21:03:03 <shepazu> Zakim, room for 2?
21:03:04 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; conference Team_(html-wg)21:03Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 2203Z
21:03:07 <karl> http://quality.mozilla.org/
21:03:12 <shepazu> oops
21:03:13 <MikeSmith> Present+ GregThompson
21:03:56 <shepazu> sorry about that
21:04:39 <MikeSmith> Present+ HennySwan
21:04:45 <MikeSmith> Zakim, room to groove?
21:04:45 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
21:04:57 <MikeSmith> Zakim, room to get a freak on?
21:04:57 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
21:05:19 <kingryan> Lachy: could I join the skype call? my skype username is ryansking
21:05:47 <Lachy> I'll see if we can set up a skypecast. Hold on.
21:09:17 <Chris> Chris has joined #html-wg
21:10:09 <ChrisWilson> [media elements discussion begins]
21:10:44 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #html-wg
21:11:06 <olivier> olivier has joined #html-wg
21:12:56 <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
21:13:28 <MikeSmith> mjs : Does anybody have problems with the current parts of the HTML5 spec for audio and video?
21:13:44 <MikeSmith> DanC: yeah, I do. I think we should take it out.
21:14:41 <jgraham_> jgraham_ has joined #html-wg
21:15:11 <Lachy> skypecast wouldn't work
21:15:30 <justin> justin has joined #html-wg
21:16:10 <MikeSmith> HÃ¥kon: first thing that happens when people turn on the OLPC machine is, they see themselves ... 
21:16:18 <MikeSmith> ... because it has a built-in camera ... 
21:16:23 <karl> http://www.laptopgiving.org/
21:16:25 <aaronlev_> aaronlev_ has joined #html-wg
21:16:28 <MikeSmith> ... also Tom-Tom jamming application ... 
21:16:39 <karl> http://laptopfoundation.org/
21:17:06 <MikeSmith> [HÃ¥kon demo'ing video stuff in special Opera build]
21:18:08 <jgraham_> aria people are squatting in rthe empty xsl-fo room
21:18:32 <myakura> myakura has joined #html-wg
21:18:42 <MikeSmith> [HÃ¥kon attempting to show Green-Winged Macaw page from Wikipedia, but having problems]
21:20:27 <KevinLawver> KevinLawver has joined #html-wg
21:21:34 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : As I understand it, the goal is to make it easier and more declarative to support videos
21:21:53 <karl> http://livedocs.adobe.com/contribute/4/using_admin_en/wwhelp/wwhimpl/common/html/wwhelp.htm?context=Using_and_Administering_Contribute&file=00000214.htm
21:22:06 <MikeSmith> mjs : there's not reason why it needs to be more complicated than <img> for the simple case
21:22:48 <MikeSmith> DanC: I think the Design Principles document can help grow a set of requirements
21:23:05 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
21:23:13 <MikeSmith> DaveSinger: The justification might help us figure out when we have completed the design.
21:23:51 <Hixie> The agenda is here: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
21:24:06 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : I think some of the goals that mjs has brought up require the Kodak discussion.
21:24:15 <Hixie> Hixie has changed the topic to: HTML WG meeting - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
21:24:23 <Bert> agenda+ why are there IMG, VIDEO, EMBED and AUDIO but no TEXT? (Text is one of the most often asked extension for CSS, but it really belongs in HTML, not CSS.)
21:24:32 <Yves> Yves has joined #html-wg
21:24:32 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
21:24:52 <Hixie> Bert: there is -- <img>, <video>, <embed>, <audio>, <iframe>
21:25:07 <mjs> MikeSmith: "codec", not "kodak"
21:25:17 <MikeSmith> ah
21:25:23 <anne> I don't think the ARIA session is being minuted
21:25:30 <smedero> Video codec starter issue: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/7
21:25:42 <smedero> (starting to collect emails and such)
21:25:45 <oedipus> there are people in the pf channel, but no notes
21:25:48 <MikeSmith> s/Kodak/codec/
21:27:17 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : [re discussion with Dave Singer], you just introduced some "risk of editorship"
21:28:40 <glazou_soreThroat> glazou_soreThroat has joined #html-wg
21:29:59 <dsinger_> we need video to get consistent attributes, dom, accessibility;  to expose its time-based behavior;  to make it a 1st-class citizen that is properly integrated; ...
21:30:16 <MikeSmith> Present+ JonFerraiolo
21:32:08 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : there is an open question about how do we do synchronization
21:35:09 <glazou> glazou has joined #html-wg
21:35:19 <MikeSmith> Present+ DanielGlazman
21:35:51 <MikeSmith> [mjs prepares to do demo of video in Webkit] 
21:36:56 <MikeSmith> mjs : this in in the Webkit nightlies
21:37:12 <MikeSmith> [demoing example of opacity/compositing]
21:38:21 <MikeSmith> mjs : we will be adding the controls attribute soon ... 
21:38:42 <Marcos_> Marcos_ has joined #html-wg
21:38:47 <MikeSmith> ... and fully supporting soon the complete HTML5 spec for <video>
21:39:16 <myakura> WebKit Nightlies http://nightly.webkit.org/
21:39:26 <howcome> howcome has joined #html-wg
21:41:50 <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL3/smil-extended-media-object.html#edef-video
21:42:57 <karl> <par>
21:42:57 <karl>   <video id="carvideo" src="car.rm" region="videoregion" title="Car video"
21:42:57 <karl>          alt="Illustration of relativistic time dilation and length 
21:42:57 <karl>               contraction." 
21:42:58 <karl>          longdesc="carvideodesc.html" readIndex="3"/>
21:43:00 <karl>   <audio id="caraudio" src="caraudio.rm" region="videoregion" 
21:43:02 <karl>          title="Car presentation voiceover" begin="bar.begin"/>
21:43:04 <karl>   <animation id="cardiagram" src="car.svg" region="animregion" 
21:43:06 <karl>          title="Diagram of the car" readIndex="2"/>
21:43:08 <karl>   <img id="scvad" src="scv.png" region="videoregion" 
21:43:10 <karl>          title="Advertisement for Sugar Coated Vegetables"
21:43:12 <karl>          readIndex="1"/>
21:43:14 <karl> </par>
21:43:20 <smedero> doh. dupe issues. :-/
21:43:45 <MikeSmith> smedero - no problem ... I'll just delete the one I opened
21:44:21 <smedero> Ahh, thanks
21:45:52 <smedero> useful page: http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/video/
21:46:05 <smedero> Ahh, thanks Bert - I'm just about to open up an issue on that
21:46:08 <karl> where did you put it Bert?
21:46:14 <anne> object=textstream, object=animation ?
21:46:37 <Bert> Nowhere, Karl, except here.
21:46:46 <smedero> Karl, I'm creating an issue
21:46:55 <smedero> for <video> and SMIL issues
21:47:07 <Bert> object=ref
21:47:15 <karl> Bert I think that would be better to have a full comparison not only names but attributes/features too
21:47:45 <MikeSmith> Tex: we need a statement of scope
21:48:16 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : I would like to see us define how autoplay works, and how synchronization works
21:48:28 <dsinger_> I think how autoplay works is defined
21:48:52 <MikeSmith> Hixie : current spec is that each <video> element is independent 
21:49:21 <MikeSmith> HÃ¥kon: We should err on the side of simplicity
21:49:45 <MikeSmith> ... what's current in there is a little too much more than most people would need
21:49:59 <MikeSmith> s/current in there/currently in there/
21:50:42 <smedero> ChrisWilson: should there be a separate issue for <video>'s autoplay implementation?
21:51:51 <Lachy> autoplay is well defined here http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#loading
21:52:48 <MikeSmith> RESOLUTION: Add AudioVideoScope page to the Wiki
21:52:53 <karl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AudioVideoScope
21:53:56 <karl> Lachy, you have the wrong uri :p - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#loading
21:54:23 <MikeSmith> mjs : YouTube, MySpace, Apple's QuickTime trailer site, Wikipedia are good sites for video examples
21:54:27 <Lachy> karl, no I don't. The specs are identical
21:54:56 <Hixie> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AudioVideoScope
21:55:02 <Hixie> feel free to stick stuff on there
21:55:28 <MikeSmith> mjs : If every major browser could support one common video codec, then authors could post just one video format on their site (instead of multiple ones).
21:56:06 <MikeSmith> ... Ogg, patent risk is more unknown
21:56:49 <MikeSmith> ... MPEG4, open standard, technically pretty good, used by Apple, haven't been sued yet, but patented and the patent licenses are not cheap ... 
21:57:09 <MikeSmith> ... many mobile devices have built-in support for H264 (MPEG4) ... 
21:57:27 <MikeSmith> ... third candidate is Windows Media ... 
21:57:41 <Lachy> Dirac will be another good alternative when it's finished
21:57:54 <howcome> howcome has joined #html-wg
21:57:59 <Lachy> it's being developed by the BBC, and since they're big, they're taking the risk of being sued for it
21:57:59 <MikeSmith> dsinger_ : H263 ... which is also widely supported in mobiles
21:58:30 <Lachy> or animated GIF! ;-P
21:58:32 <MikeSmith> mjs : tradeoff of IP issues vs. codec quality
21:59:13 <karl> http://dirac.sourceforge.net/
21:59:17 <Philip> Lachy, animated PNG would allow higher quality videos :-)
21:59:37 <Lachy> but we know GIF patents have expired already :-)
22:00:12 <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : Our legal people do not believe that Ogg Theora has much of any chance of being free from patent issues.
22:01:11 <karl> http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/implementations.shtml
22:01:29 <karl> http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/index.shtml
22:01:53 <karl> http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/licensing.shtml
22:02:42 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
22:03:37 <MikeSmith> ACTION: Dave Singer to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
22:03:37 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Dave
22:05:18 <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
22:05:18 <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
22:05:18 <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
22:05:24 <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
22:05:38 <MikeSmith> ACTION: David to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
22:05:38 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David
22:05:38 <trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dsinger2, hyatt)
22:05:57 <justin> justin has joined #html-wg
22:06:09 <MikeSmith> ACTION: dsinger2 to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
22:06:09 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-4 - Draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list. [on David Singer - due 2007-11-15].
22:07:49 <jgraham_> jgraham_ has joined #html-wg
22:07:52 <mikko_honkala_> mikko_honkala_ has joined #html-wg
22:10:19 <kingryan> spec section reference: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#browser
22:11:06 <kingryan> right?
22:13:18 <smedero> kingryan, yes. or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-browser.html#browser for folks who loathe the single page version.
22:14:27 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg
22:16:24 <Lachy> simple video test cases: http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/video/001
22:16:55 <Lachy> if someone wants to write some more video test cases, that would be aweome. You can use the videos here http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/support/
22:17:01 <smedero> Lachy: the FAIL videos you produced are indirectly hilarious.
22:17:09 <Lachy> how so?
22:17:21 <smedero> in the playing off internet lingo sense
22:17:44 <oedipus> lachy: what UA are you using? the only thing i get is "You should see a video below" and then "FAIL"
22:17:59 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg
22:18:03 <Lachy> oedipus, you need a recent build of Opera with Video support
22:18:11 <oedipus> ok
22:18:21 <Lachy> there was one released on labs.opera.com yesterday
22:18:24 <gavin> gavin has joined #html-wg
22:19:10 <Lachy> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/a-call-for-video-on-the-web-opera-vid/
22:21:19 <Philip> (Ooh, 3d canvas too?)
22:22:22 <Lachy> here's one http://hixie.ch/tests/html40/test41-1b.html - note that pass condition contains red!
22:22:55 <ChrisWilson> video] http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/127
22:24:12 <kingryan> +1 to mercurial
22:24:24 <aroben_> aroben_ has joined #html-wg
22:24:59 <gsnedders> +1 to Mercurial
22:25:06 <kingryan> it separates the acts of creating a changeset and publishing a changeset
22:25:43 <kingryan> every working copy is a a full repository
22:26:22 <gsnedders> (I'd say any distributed SCM over any centralised one, though I have a preference for Mercurial)
22:26:46 <Philip> (Opera says: cannot find d3d9.dll :-( )
22:26:49 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #html-wg
22:29:17 <kingryan> welcome tantek to the skype conf call
22:30:30 <tantek> greetings. who on the call is actually at the meeting? i suggest everyone else on the call click the mute (mic with slash) button.
22:30:40 <Lachy> Lachy has changed the topic to: HTML WG meeting - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F (Ping Lachy if you want to join the skype conf call)
22:30:50 <Lachy> tantek, Marcos is at the meeting
22:35:37 <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/focus/ has my three tests
22:37:14 <Lachy> anne, 003 needs to give instructions to click the text
22:38:26 <anne> Lachy, no
22:38:40 <anne> Lachy, maybe to not click the test
22:38:42 <anne> text
22:39:10 <Lachy> oh, right.
22:40:06 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #html-wg
22:42:43 <smedero> tantek:  you did
22:43:09 <howcome> howcome has joined #html-wg
22:43:33 <MarcinHanclik> MarcinHanclik has joined #html-wg
22:43:34 <kingryan> i think someone just made tantek's day
22:46:11 <shawn> shawn has joined #html-wg
22:46:36 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has joined #html-wg
22:48:15 <janet> janet has joined #html-wg
22:48:18 <janet> http://www.guitaretab.com/t/the-clash/3563.html
22:49:19 <tantek> is that a test page janet?
22:49:50 <kingryan> tantek: I think it's an agenda item :)
22:50:39 <aaronlev_> aaronlev_ has joined #html-wg
22:53:17 <ChrisWilson> heheheh
22:53:31 <ChrisWilson> Yes, Janet, that's an agenda item.
22:54:36 <ChrisWilson> tantek - you're correct.  Maciej found a bug in MacIE.  :)  I paid him back by finding a couple of bugs in Safari.
22:56:24 <tantek> nicely done ChrisWilson
22:57:12 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
22:58:10 <Lachy> I wrote another test case http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/video/004
22:58:40 <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html
22:59:00 <Lachy> that's for whoever it was Hixie just told to look them up
22:59:33 <MikeSmith> Lachy - thanks. That was Tex Texin asking about that
22:59:41 <MikeSmith> kingryan - yeah
23:00:01 <MikeSmith> make it more fun
23:00:28 <smedero> for the guys discussing text selection range support: http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/range_intro.html
23:00:37 <kingryan> this might also be of interest: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/testsuitedocumentation.html
23:01:21 <anne> maybe e-mail them to www-archive@w3.org
23:01:32 <Lachy> yeah, that would be good
23:01:34 <MikeSmith> anne - yeah
23:05:49 <ChrisWilson> anne - agree, I'll mail mine.
23:07:29 <ChrisWilson> okay, time to head back to the hotel and make dinner plans.
23:07:46 <ChrisWilson> see you all tomorrow
23:11:32 <sbuluf> sbuluf has joined #html-wg
23:18:08 <Philip> (I'm guessing it's like m=ctx.create3DModel();m.addVertex(0,0,0);m.addVertex(0,0,1);m.addVertex(1,1,1);m.addTriangle(0,1,2);ctx.beginScene();ctx.draw3DModel(m);ctx.endScene() except I can't get anything to draw but maybe that's just because I'm using Wine in Linux)
23:18:31 <janet> forgive me for interrupting your meeting. DanC and I are rehearsing for tomorrow.
23:18:52 <Philip> (Uh, add another two arguments in addVertex)
23:19:55 <DanC_lap> http://esw.w3.org/topic/InstantGig
23:21:27 <anne> Philip, can't you iterate over the object?
23:22:19 <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/
23:23:23 <Philip> anne: Yes, but that just shows the function names, and I have to try calling with various numbers of arguments until it doesn't throw exceptions, and then I have to guess what each argument means and what order the functions should be called in
23:24:18 <Philip> and then it doesn't work in VMWare, and I can't tell if doesn't work in Wine or it just doesn't work at all, or if I've just got coordinates wrong so everything is drawn off the screen :-)
23:25:32 <anne> I suggest e-mailing timj
23:25:46 <anne> He is probably able to help
23:25:52 <janet> http://cohenchords.com/08vp/hallelujah.htm
23:26:07 <janet> http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/callmeth.htm
23:26:56 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
23:30:01 <anne> I still recommend e-mailing timj to save yourself time
23:30:18 <Hixie> so has anyone been reading the ping="" stuff from today?
23:32:15 <anne> the discussion was about the user not knowing the difference
23:32:16 <anne> mostly
23:32:21 <anne> and "teaching authors"
23:32:33 <anne> and frameworks providing LinkButton and Button classes that map to HTML
23:32:39 <anne> (from my brief reading)
23:32:42 <anne> hah
23:33:24 <Lachy> Hixie, did you update the ping stuff in the spec, or do you mean the mailing list?
23:34:03 <anne> he closed his laptop
23:34:10 <anne> anne has left #html-wg