15:51:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swd
15:51:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-irc
15:51:20 <Tom> rrsagent, bookmark
15:51:20 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-irc#T15-51-20
15:51:25 <Tom> zakim, this will be swd
15:51:25 <Zakim> ok, Tom; I see SW_SWD()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
15:52:03 <Tom> Meeting: SWD WG
15:52:05 <Tom> Chair: Tom
15:52:23 <Tom> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Nov/0003.html
15:52:36 <Tom> Regrets: Quentin, Jon, Clay, Elisa
15:53:41 <Tom> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html
15:53:54 <Tom> rrsagent, please make record public
15:55:31 <Zakim> SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started
15:55:38 <Zakim> +??P9
15:55:54 <Tom> zakim, ??p9 is me
15:55:54 <Zakim> +Tom; got it
15:57:40 <edsu> edsu has joined #swd
15:57:56 <berrueta> berrueta has joined #swd
15:59:36 <Zakim> +[LC]
15:59:49 <Tom> zakim, LC is Edsu
15:59:49 <Zakim> +Edsu; got it
15:59:55 <dlrubin> dlrubin has joined #swd
15:59:56 <Guus> Guus has joined #swd
16:01:24 <seanb> seanb has joined #swd
16:02:35 <Antoine> Antoine has joined #swd
16:03:10 <aliman> aliman has joined #swd
16:03:11 <edsu> are you guys able to get into the telecon?
16:03:29 <Zakim> +??P13
16:03:29 <edsu> just me and tom in here at the moment
16:03:46 <Tom> zakim, ??p13 is SeanB
16:03:46 <Zakim> +SeanB; got it
16:04:04 <Zakim> +Antoine
16:04:18 <Zakim> +??P12
16:04:25 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
16:04:26 <Tom> zakim, ??p12 is Aliman
16:04:26 <Zakim> + +49.842.9.aaaa
16:04:30 <Zakim> +Aliman; got it
16:04:38 <Tom> zakim, aaaa is Diego
16:04:38 <Zakim> +Diego; got it
16:04:48 <Zakim> +??P22
16:04:52 <Simone> Zakim, ??P22 is me
16:04:52 <Zakim> +Simone; got it
16:04:58 <Zakim> +Ralph
16:05:51 <Zakim> +??P18
16:06:06 <Tom> zakim, ??p18 is Dlrubin
16:06:06 <Zakim> +Dlrubin; got it
16:06:10 <dlrubin> scribenick: rubin
16:06:19 <dlrubin> scribenic: dlrubin
16:06:25 <dlrubin> scribenick: dlrubin
16:06:40 <aliman> /me hears furious typing :)
16:06:53 <edsu> it sounds like a choppy connection to me :)
16:07:05 <dlrubin> Chair: Ralph
16:07:11 <Ralph> Chair: Tom
16:07:18 <Simone> Zakim, mute me please
16:07:18 <Zakim> Simone should now be muted
16:08:05 <dlrubin> Topic: Admin
16:08:19 <dlrubin> Amendments to record of face-to-face in Amsterdam
16:08:19 <dlrubin> ACTION: Ralph to update face to face minutes to reflect the amendment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action01]
16:08:31 <dlrubin> --completed
16:08:41 <dlrubin> --done
16:09:07 <dlrubin> PROPOSED to accept minutes of the Oct 30 telecon
16:09:13 <dlrubin> resolved to accept
16:09:24 <dlrubin> Next telecons: 20 Nov 1600 UTC (13 Nov is cancelled)
16:09:28 <dlrubin> Next tcon on 11/20
16:09:35 <dlrubin> Topic: SKOS
16:09:49 <dlrubin> SKOS - see 
16:09:49 <dlrubin> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#SKOS
16:10:06 <dlrubin> Schedule for SKOS deliverables
16:10:06 <dlrubin>    see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0135.html
16:10:06 <dlrubin>    Month 14, Nov 2007: Editor's Draft, SKOS Reference
16:10:06 <dlrubin>    Month 16, Jan 2007: First Public WD, SKOS Reference
16:10:06 <dlrubin>    Month 17, Feb 2007: Last Call WD, SKOS Reference
16:10:07 <dlrubin>    Month 19, Apr 2007: Candidate Recommendation, SKOS Reference
16:10:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-minutes.html Ralph
16:10:42 <dlrubin> Ralph: someone to should review deliverables page and update summaries
16:10:46 <dlrubin> ...to reflect current plans
16:10:57 <dlrubin> ...to bring this up to date
16:11:05 <dlrubin> ...will someone take an action to do that
16:11:18 <Ralph> zakim, list attendees
16:11:18 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tom, Edsu, SeanB, Antoine, Guus_Schreiber, +49.842.9.aaaa, Aliman, Diego, Simone, Ralph, Dlrubin
16:11:19 <dlrubin> ACTION: Alistair will to update deliverables for SKOS
16:11:33 <aliman> s/Ralph/Tom/
16:12:19 <dlrubin> Alistair: we leave option of including primer in recommendation
16:13:27 <dlrubin> Antoine: should we start working on it now or never?
16:13:40 <dlrubin> Allistair: should we try to keep them together?
16:14:01 <dlrubin> Antoine: yes, that's my idea. We say we expect primer to be produced with reference
16:14:21 <Ralph> (our experience with RDFa was that it was very confusing for the community to have primer and spec get far out of sync)
16:14:26 <dlrubin> Allistair: we can publish primer as working draft in Feb/Mar. We should aim for two drafts as primer. Should keep them in synch
16:15:08 <aliman> s/Allistair/Alistair/
16:15:48 <dlrubin> edsu: agrees with Antoine
16:15:56 <edsu> dlrubin++
16:16:04 <dlrubin> Ralph: this should be reflected on deliverables page
16:16:09 <Ralph> s/Ralph/Tom/
16:17:00 <dlrubin> ACTION: Alistair and Guus to prepare material for next week on Concept Schemes vs OWL Ontologies [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action04]
16:17:20 <dlrubin> --continues
16:18:19 <dlrubin> Alistair: we haven't talked about this yet. I posted an email on this
16:18:29 <dlrubin> ...we ought to have a discussion on this.
16:19:31 <dlrubin> Guus: we could have a short discussion
16:20:02 <dlrubin> Guus: at F2F we discussed that SKOS is a metamodel. It models concepts that belong in a vocabulary.
16:20:25 <dlrubin> ...from that perspective, SKOS concepts are from perspective of metamodel--instances may want to be like classes
16:20:53 <dlrubin> ...if you want to treat them as classes (you don't do that in thesauri), you run into problems in OWL-DL
16:21:22 <dlrubin> ...rationale in F2F: the metamodel issue is being addressed in OWL-DL group. SKOS groups shouldn't make decisions
16:21:49 <dlrubin> ...that restrict ourselves to DL where this issue will be taken up. We proposed to say you cannot treat them as OWL classes
16:22:14 <dlrubin> ...Some vocabulary owners will want to treat instances as classes. So my answer is yes, if OWL 1.1 comes up 
16:22:31 <dlrubin> ...with solution, then instances will be able to be treatable as classes.
16:23:06 <edsu> dlrubin: so you are basically saying you will defer the issue to the owl dl group to deal with?
16:27:42 <Tom> dlrubin: for people using DL and want to use SKOS in their OWL DL ontologies, what are the implications?
16:27:54 <Tom> Alistair: depends how you want to use OWL DL and SKOS in combination
16:28:18 <Tom> ...if just using labeling properties, not commiting either way
16:28:36 <Tom> dlrubin: people need to know what parts you can use
16:29:02 <Tom> SeanB: if you don't expect everything to be in same graph, could use annotations without messing things up
16:29:42 <Tom> Guus: precisely the point.  Also the point of OWL 1.1 - this kind of metamodeling is unlikely to affect the reasoning because you are unlikely to want to [use both at once]
16:30:00 <Tom> SeanB: would not expect same logical consequences - then could use both in a principled manner
16:30:23 <Tom> Guus: we need to write about this in the Primer
16:30:57 <Tom> Al: I put down my understanding in Design Patterns for working with OWL and SKOS...
16:31:41 <aliman> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/public/skos/2007/10/f2f/skos-owl-patterns.html -> Al's document about patterns for working with OWL and SKOS
16:32:12 <dlrubin> Antoine: For F2F we explored patterns to link to skos concepts. 
16:32:30 <aliman> discussion of skos:it / skos:as
16:32:42 <dlrubin> ...is this something of interest?
16:32:53 <dlrubin> Guus: I wouldn't go that route
16:33:11 <dlrubin> Antoine: are we sure there will be a solution from the group?
16:33:30 <dlrubin> Guus: worst thing that will happen is OWL people would separate the graphs
16:33:57 <dlrubin> Alistair: even if OWL 1.1 people reosovle metamodel issue, there could be a community that has OWL and SKOS vocabularies separate
16:34:16 <dlrubin> ...I've heard people do that. You may have situations where want to bridge metalevel and below
16:34:34 <dlrubin> Guus: we can give guidelines. I wouldn't introduce specific vocabulary. I'd give in primer a reference
16:34:51 <dlrubin> ...non-normative section an example. But not introduce new vocabulary.
16:34:57 <dlrubin> Alisatir: I accept that
16:35:17 <dlrubin> Guus: Let's leave discussion for now. Action should be to write a section in primer that explains the issue.
16:36:13 <dlrubin> Alistair: We've got two documents out there. One is my note on patterns. We can use this toward explaining the issue. 
16:36:36 <dlrubin> Guus: drop that action on Alistair and me.
16:37:02 <dlrubin> ACTION: Alistair and Guus to prepare material for next week on Concept Schemes vs OWL Ontologies [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action04]
16:37:06 <dlrubin> --drop
16:37:39 <dlrubin> ACTION: Write section in Primer on how to use OWL-DL in SKOS
16:38:09 <Tom> s/Write/Alistair and Guus write/
16:39:01 <Ralph> rrsagent, drop action 4
16:39:51 <aliman> guus: write draft section in primer on relationship between SKOS concepts and OWL classes or OWL DL users.
16:40:04 <aliman> s/or/for/
16:40:39 <dlrubin> ACTION: Antoine to summarise inScheme vs isDefinedBy and decide whether or not to reopen the issue. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action03]
16:40:42 <dlrubin> --DONE
16:41:17 <Guus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.html
16:41:21 <dlrubin> Antoine: Some citations from SKOS guide and reference. It's not clear whether same thing is intended.
16:41:45 <dlrubin> ...isDefinedBy is about description of things. 
16:42:10 <dlrubin> ...There might be a difference between the two. Might be clearer when Ralph gives more detail on isDefinedBy
16:42:17 <dlrubin> ...I propose re-opening the issue.
16:42:37 <dlrubin> Guus: I agree with his analysis and support the resolution.
16:42:47 <dlrubin> ACTION: Ralph to reconstruct proposal for semantics of isDefinedBy [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action02] 
16:42:51 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:43:07 <dlrubin> ACTION: Tom to amend proposals to for accepting minimal relation labels [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action12]
16:43:07 <dlrubin> -- done - see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0137.html
16:43:10 <dlrubin> --DONE
16:43:19 <dlrubin> ACTION: Guus to post user experience reports for ISSUE-25 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-minutes.html#action05]
16:43:19 <dlrubin> -- Guus suggested to DROP after ftf decision on the issue, but action has been continued...
16:43:26 <dlrubin> --DROP
16:43:41 <dlrubin> ACTION: Guus to write up the issue [of Label Resource] and add to the issue list. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action01]
16:43:49 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:43:55 <dlrubin> ACTION: Alistair to update semantics document to listing ways in which SKOS diverges from OWL DL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action06]
16:44:10 <dlrubin> --DROP
16:44:20 <dlrubin> Topic: RDFa
16:44:37 <Ralph> Alistair: update to semantics doc will be done as part of prior action w/Guus
16:44:40 <dlrubin> Tom: Teleconf now on Thurs?
16:44:48 <dlrubin> ...yes
16:44:58 <dlrubin> ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action03]
16:45:04 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:45:24 <dlrubin> ACTION: Ben and Michael to address comments by Tom [regarding maintenance of wiki document http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa] recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action05]
16:45:42 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:46:46 <dlrubin> Ralph: I don't expect any more RDFa publications in Nov
16:47:09 <dlrubin> --DONE
16:47:39 <dlrubin> TOPIC: Recipies
16:47:50 <dlrubin> RECIPES - see 
16:47:50 <dlrubin> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#Recipes
16:47:56 <dlrubin> ACTION: Guus/Tom to solicit reviewers for the Recipes document. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action08]
16:47:58 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:48:04 <dlrubin> ACTION: Dan to ask apache about conditional redirects [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action07]
16:48:21 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:48:24 <dlrubin> ACTION: Diego to recast Recipe 6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action02] 
16:48:30 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:48:40 <dlrubin> ACTION: Jon to add words that acknowledge the existence of RDFa as potential mechanisms, but it's out of scope here. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action06]
16:48:42 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:48:45 <Guus> [I have to drop off to help my duagther with exam preps]
16:48:47 <dlrubin> ACTION: Jon to make changes as proposed [with regard to Issue-23] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action05]
16:48:50 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:48:59 <dlrubin> ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
16:49:03 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:49:09 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
16:49:10 <dlrubin> ACTION: Ralph to come up with a URI for wiki page [for Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action04]
16:49:15 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:49:21 <dlrubin> ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action03]
16:49:39 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:49:44 <dlrubin> ACTION: TF leaders to prepare a version of Recipes for review in December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action09]
16:49:52 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:50:02 <dlrubin> TOPIC: VOCABULARY MANAGEMENT
16:50:09 <dlrubin> ACTION: Vit and Elisa to include in the document all the target sections plus an allocation of sections to people and potentially a standard structure for sections [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action07]
16:50:12 <dlrubin> --CONTINUES
16:50:21 <dlrubin> TOPIC: AOB
16:50:37 <dlrubin> SWEO request for input to Semantic Web FAQ re: SKOS
16:50:37 <dlrubin>    see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Nov/0002.html
16:50:53 <dlrubin> ...Anyone willing to take this on?
16:51:02 <dlrubin> ...Need text for this. Would be reusable in Primer
16:51:21 <Ralph> Ed++
16:51:21 <dlrubin> edsu: I'll do it
16:51:43 <dlrubin> ACTION: Ed to write suggest some text about SKOS message for SWEO Semantic Web FAQ
16:52:01 <dlrubin> Tom: any other topics to discuss?
16:52:22 <dlrubin> Tom: Thanks everyone. Meeting adjourned.
16:52:30 <Ralph> zakim, list participants
16:52:30 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tom, Edsu, SeanB, Antoine, Guus_Schreiber, +49.842.9.aaaa, Aliman, Diego, Simone, Ralph, Dlrubin
16:52:37 <Zakim> -Edsu
16:52:43 <Zakim> -Simone
16:52:48 <Zakim> -Aliman
16:52:49 <Zakim> -Diego
16:52:53 <Zakim> -Antoine
16:52:58 <Antoine> Antoine has left #swd
16:53:04 <Tom> zakim, please list attendees
16:53:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tom, Edsu, SeanB, Antoine, Guus_Schreiber, +49.842.9.aaaa, Aliman, Diego, Simone, Ralph, Dlrubin
16:53:08 <seanb> seanb has left #swd
16:53:26 <dlrubin> zakim, meeting adjourned
16:53:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'meeting adjourned', dlrubin
16:53:35 <Tom> Daniel, you are no longer on the call?
16:53:45 <Ralph> zakim, who's still on the phone?
16:53:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tom, SeanB, Ralph, Dlrubin
16:53:50 <dlrubin> It dropped me off. I'm calling in again...
16:54:03 <edsu> seeyas :)
16:54:05 <Tom> Ralph, can you hear me?
16:54:06 <edsu> edsu has left #swd
16:54:53 <Zakim> +??P5
16:55:15 <Ralph> zakim, ??p5 is Tom
16:55:15 <Zakim> +Tom; got it
16:55:22 <dlrubin> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:55:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-minutes.html dlrubin
16:56:00 <Zakim> +??P6
16:56:05 <Zakim> -Dlrubin
16:56:06 <Zakim> -Tom
16:57:39 <Zakim> -Ralph
17:00:32 <Tom> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-irc#T16-43-19
17:02:39 <Zakim> -??P6
17:02:41 <Zakim> -Tom.a
17:02:43 <dlrubin> dlrubin has left #swd
17:06:38 <Zakim> -SeanB
17:06:39 <Zakim> SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
17:06:41 <Zakim> Attendees were Tom, Edsu, SeanB, Antoine, Guus_Schreiber, +49.842.9.aaaa, Aliman, Diego, Simone, Ralph, Dlrubin
19:04:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #swd