IRC log of aria on 2007-11-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:06:55 [RRSAgent]
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14:06:55 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:06:56 [oedipus]
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14:06:57 [anthony]
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14:06:58 [DanC_lap]
DanC_lap has changed the topic to: ARIA session of WAI PF WG meeting; public records
14:06:59 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make log world
14:07:45 [mattmay]
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14:08:41 [mattSCR]
RS Looking to get ARIA support in HTML/XHTML/SVG.
14:08:55 [mattSCR]
support in Dojo, Firefox, etc., but still a couple of issues.
14:09:24 [graouts]
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14:09:43 [mattSCR]
some issues: namespaces in HTML, IE defects on attr selectors, triggering off ARIA states & properties. Would prefer something that doesn't use a colon.
14:10:07 [mattSCR]
can we come up with a more general solution to the problem?
14:10:13 [ChrisL]
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14:10:24 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
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14:11:07 [anne]
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14:11:40 [mattSCR]
(time out to find a relevant party)
14:13:16 [Al]
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14:15:33 [mattSCR]
DanC: Between 450-500 people have joined HTML WG since created earlier this year.
14:16:09 [mattSCR]
Level of chaos on list and wiki is high, but ARIA issues documented on wiki
14:16:44 [mattSCR]
Freaked out about implementation issues surfacing because it seems premature to be implementing
14:17:26 [DanC_lap] ast edited 2007-10-10 13:05:56 by GregoryRosmaita
14:17:44 [mattSCR]
StevenP: XHTML2 WG is chartered to produce an XML application, and standard extension in XML is to use namespaces. Role attr can be used in multiple ways, including accessibility.
14:18:28 [mattSCR]
It's possible to apply, for example, checkbox role to a div.
14:18:40 [DanC_lap]
("unable" is strong; there's argument against)
14:18:43 [mattSCR]
My understanding is that HTML cannot adopt this mechanism.
14:19:36 [mattSCR]
ChrisL: We use XLink for linking. We don't care how it's done so long as it's well-formed. Just put it in the DOM and don't worry about rendering it.
14:19:52 [shepazu]
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14:21:07 [mattSCR]
ARIA mechanism is fine because we can just use it. Having a role for mini map to navigate a larger map is useful. We don't expect this role to be defined, but specialized implementers would want that. But collisions could occur without namespaces.
14:22:06 [ChrisL]
Colin can be used in internet explorer. MS Office already generates "html" that uses multiple namespaces - v: for vml, mso: for office extensions
14:22:11 [mattSCR]
DougS: I agree with everybody. Namespaces is elegant solution. Colon causes problems in IE. Would be ideal to have the same syntax across languages. Would be difficult for authors to use aria:* in one place and aria-* in others.
14:22:13 [Zakim]
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14:22:18 [MichaelC]
q+ Dan
14:22:21 [MichaelC]
q+ Stephen
14:22:28 [mattSCR]
Don't have a good solution.
14:22:30 [ChrisL]
... they use /: in css to get around the colon being special in css
14:22:46 [MichaelC]
ack s
14:22:55 [mattSCR]
SP: I don't believe there's a syntactic solution. But did occur to me that maybe the solution is to use XBL.
14:23:18 [ChrisL]
q+ to comment on the "IE ioncompatibility" argument
14:23:20 [mattSCR]
XBL allows you to use shadow trees. Then we wouldn't have to care that they're different across languages. Like adding a style sheet after the fact.
14:23:29 [ChrisL]
14:23:36 [MichaelC]
q+ Anne
14:23:36 [hsivonen]
14:23:38 [MichaelC]
q+ Doug
14:23:50 [DanC_lap]
in my opening remars, pls include: DanC: I gather some implementors are likely to make decision soon, which concerns me because it's not clear that the ARIA schedule and requirements are clear
14:24:12 [anne]
So FWIW, I agree XBL would be nice, but that's not implemented at all
14:24:15 [anne]
14:24:22 [MichaelC]
ack dan
14:24:53 [DanC_lap]
Squatting on link relationship names, x-tokens, registries, and URI-based extensibility
14:24:53 [DanC_lap]
-> Squatting on link relationship names, x-tokens, registries, and URI-based extensibili
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14:26:19 [mattSCR]
DanC: x-* tokens are common conventions. My belief is that you can start with a standard URI, and can work on a standard process. If it doesn't reach the level of standardization, then you'll still have the convention.
14:26:27 [ChrisL]
14:26:29 [Rich]
14:26:35 [MichaelC]
ack ch
14:26:35 [Zakim]
ChrisL, you wanted to comment on the "IE ioncompatibility" argument
14:26:57 [mattSCR]
We used to fight this with rel, and then rel="nofollow", and we celebrated that. Confusing.
14:27:27 [mattSCR]
ChrisL: I find it hard to believe IE doesn't do colon namespaces. Can use
14:27:33 [anne]
The hack you described for Selectors doesn't work at least for attribute values ChrisL
14:27:34 [mattSCR]
\: for colons
14:27:38 [Al]
ack ChrisL
14:27:39 [Rich]
14:27:44 [ChrisL]
thx anne
14:27:52 [Al]
ack hsivonen
14:28:00 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: IE does something with the colon. What it does is different from the XML DOM.
14:28:34 [mattSCR]
In Opera, WebKit and Gecko, backslash has no meaning. So multiple ways to handle the colon.
14:28:57 [karl]
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14:29:57 [mattSCR]
With HTML5, design goal is that parsing should be as close as possible to legacy so that it works consistently. Since legacy browsers do differently, spec follows non-IE browsers.
14:30:11 [mattSCR]
Since there is no interop with colon, best way is to avoid colon.
14:30:40 [ChrisL]
thats consistent (local name includes an explicit colon) but surely html5 and xhtml5 can work the same here
14:30:50 [ChrisL]
the legacy is not interoperable again
14:31:04 [mattSCR]
You can't change the legacy. If you introduce something yet different for HTML5, then you have a fourth option.
14:31:47 [DanC_lap]
(Al, we're now into HTML versioning issues, which is a notoriously tricky issue in public-html [perhaps you already know that])
14:31:50 [oedipus]
content should be browser-agnostic -- implementation decisions should not be made based on limitations of non-complying UAs
14:31:56 [mattSCR]
Opera tried namespaces in HTML and it didn't work out because of legacy content.
14:31:58 [ChrisL]
correct labelling of html5 would allow all browesers, including ie, to correctly process colons and have a namespace plus local name, same as in xhtml
14:32:38 [mattSCR]
DougS: You didn't describe what problems there were.
14:32:54 [mattSCR]
anne: We don't want a doctype switch.
14:33:04 [ChrisL]
right, it can't apply to *all* legacy content. better to correctly label html5
14:33:09 [anne]
s/a doctype/another doctype/
14:33:45 [Rich]
14:34:30 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: goal is that the DOM you get behaves the same in HTML5 and legacy browsers for parts of the language other than errors.
14:34:51 [ChrisL]
its seems crazy to propogate a method that has already been stated not to work and not to be interoperable between ie and non-ie, and which ie won't change; and to propogate that to replace one that does work in existing browsers
14:35:03 [mattSCR]
There's no value to script writers to create two different mechanisms.
14:35:08 [ChrisL]
but you *are* introducing a discrepancy
14:35:28 [anne]
we're simply introducing new attributes...
14:35:39 [Steven-mobile]
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14:36:01 [mattSCR]
If we have a script written for HTML5, same script should work in XHTML5.
14:36:32 [Steven-mobile]
14:36:33 [ChrisL]
agreed, but there are two ways of having a script work the same in html5 and xhtml5
14:36:46 [ChrisL]
... and one of those ways breaks *everything else*
14:37:09 [mattSCR]
DanC: HTML WG decision-making procedure is just starting, so if you want an answer from us soon, you're stressing things.
14:37:31 [DanC_lap]
... especially a decision that's intertwingled with versioning
14:37:58 [mattSCR]
DougS: Things are being implemented presently.
14:38:07 [Al]
14:38:11 [mattSCR]
DanC: As chair, no decisions have been made.
14:38:19 [Al]
ack Doug
14:38:34 [DanC_lap]
to clarify: the HTML WG as a whole has not made any design decisions.
14:38:34 [Al]
q+ raman
14:38:56 [mattSCR]
DougS: anne, you said Opera doesn't want a switch, but IE clearly does. Saying there can't be one is not yet off the table.
14:38:57 [Steven-mobile]
14:39:01 [mattSCR]
anne: I'm saying that's our opinion.
14:39:06 [ChrisL]
I agree with Dan that decisions have not been made, per process; I'm also hearing lots of claims that decisions can't be changed or that opinions will not be changed
14:39:17 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: I believe Mozilla position is the same.
14:39:22 [ChrisL]
Anne and henris say 'no more switching'
14:39:39 [DanC_lap]
yes, the HTML WG process has a fairly high level of chaos, true.
14:39:45 [ChrisL]
Dave Hyatt came firmly in favour of a switching mechanism
14:40:26 [mattSCR]
DougS: I believe it's still open.
14:40:46 [mattSCR]
DougS: XBL could work if it were implemented. Mozilla doesn't support XBL2. Need something that works today.
14:40:56 [DanC_lap]
"Dave Hyatt came firmly in favour of a switching mechanism" was what DougS said; let's please be more clear about attribution
14:41:06 [Al]
14:41:10 [Al]
ack Rich
14:41:12 [ChrisL]
IE certainly needs a switching mechanism so they can not treat the old legacy (that they mostly madxe, from ms tools) differently
14:41:50 [mattSCR]
Rich: XBL is an enormous expectation of the browsers. Not that it's a bad idea.
14:42:30 [DanC_lap]
(re things that are in e-mail already, pointers are welcome, but not everybody has read everything, and discussion can shed light on stuff that's already been said.)
14:42:38 [mattSCR]
Applications are being built today. People need access to this information. We have working examples, e.g., Dojo. But we want to make it easier. Need something that works in today's browsers, preferably easier in HTML5. Then want to look at SVG next.
14:42:46 [Al]
ack raman
14:43:18 [ChrisL]
quoting from the html vision document "Also, as soon as there is a need for any extensibility, the XML serialization (with use of XML namespaces) gains an immediate practical advantage."
14:43:27 [ChrisL]
14:43:33 [Rich]
14:43:40 [mattSCR]
Raman: DanC made an important point re: no decisions being made. If PFWG expects a final decision on ARIA, we may be stressing things too much. But does PF need a firm answer on ARIA today? We designed ARIA to patch HTML 4. The point of HTML 5 is that people are writing HTML 4.
14:43:42 [oedipus]
+1 to the "vision thing"
14:44:24 [hsivonen]
14:44:50 [mattSCR]
ARIA works on HTML 4 now. No need to be designing or hacking this for HTML5. There's still time to do this for HTML 4 now, and HTML5 later. We have apps using this now. Why do this now where angels fear... even looking in?
14:45:07 [Al]
ack Steven-mobile
14:45:32 [ChrisL]
pointer to dojo doing this?
14:45:44 [DanC_lap]
yes, please, pointer to dojo doing this?
14:45:49 [MichaelC]
anne, explains HTML 4 implementation of ARIA
14:45:56 [mattSCR]
StevenP: Understand scripting issue is important. But Dojo supports it now, and toolkits are popular.
14:45:57 [mattSCR]
14:46:06 [mattSCR]
Can abstract this away.
14:46:10 [ChrisL]
14:46:24 [mattSCR]
Raman: No matter how this is done, it's one global replace to repair.
14:46:27 [Rich]
14:46:27 [ChrisL]
quoting "Proper namespace support is one of the main reasons I fell for dojo. To avoid name collisions is far more important than writing the shortest statements."
14:46:28 [Al]
ack hsivonen
14:46:57 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: Reason to rush this is that if ARIA support doesn't get into FF3/Opera9.5, then another generation is lost.
14:47:20 [DanC_lap]
q+ to ask hsivonen for estimated decision schedule for firefox 3
14:47:40 [anne]
MichaelC, that's not really a realistic implementation imo, but ok
14:47:54 [mattSCR]
As for abstraction, if browsers do different things for scripting, you can abstract it in the library, but that's a fix for a problem, and there's no value to scripters to introduce these discrepancies to satisfy aesthetics or politics.
14:48:06 [mattSCR]
q+ DougS
14:48:12 [Al]
14:48:36 [Al]
ack Rich
14:49:25 [mattSCR]
Rich: As a developer supporting ARIA, would rather set the attribute without having to use the colon. Cuts down on the code going down to the client if you can fix this problem.
14:49:37 [mattSCR]
Would be nice to consider having a dash equivalent to a colon.
14:49:50 [mattSCR]
DougS: Dash equal to colon would be very unrealistic.
14:50:02 [Rich]
14:50:03 [Al]
ack Matt
14:50:06 [DanC_lap]
FYI, the versioning stuff now has a home in the budding HTML WG tracker system
14:50:10 [Rich]
scribe: Rich
14:50:18 [ChrisL]
there are lots of hyphens in attributes. for example formatting properties
14:50:27 [ChrisL]
font-style etc etc
14:50:44 [Rich]
Matt: My concern is that we can fix this in scripting so that scripters can use this. Most scripters have no clue how to do things accessibly
14:51:05 [Rich]
Matt: scripters will come back to the browser developers asking why we need to do this additional work
14:51:15 [Al]
14:51:30 [Rich]
Matt: would like to take the gloves off and see how we can address this
14:51:35 [Rich]
scribe: Matt
14:51:37 [ChrisL]
14:51:38 [mattSCR]
Raman: Firefox has an implementation already
14:51:41 [DanC_lap]
ack danc
14:51:41 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, you wanted to ask hsivonen for estimated decision schedule for firefox 3
14:51:49 [ChrisL]
14:52:03 [mattSCR]
DanC: henri, do you know about the Firefox schedule?
14:52:11 [ChrisL]
14:52:27 [mattSCR]
DanC: lag between dev and release?
14:52:45 [mattSCR]
AaronL: Can't give a firm answer. If we can decide before Christmas, then we have a good chance.
14:52:55 [Al]
14:52:58 [mattSCR]
Rich: We do have aria-* already implemented.
14:53:17 [mattSCR]
AaronL: You can still use - in HTML, and : in SVG
14:53:34 [ChrisL]
see for example on aria in dojo
14:54:06 [mattSCR]
Raman: for the record, colons do work in FF3.
14:54:16 [mattSCR]
and FF2
14:54:29 [ChrisL]
dojo 1.0 shipped last week and uses xml namespaces. works in ff2 and ff3. hyphen might work in ff3 perhaps
14:54:33 [mattSCR]
DougS: What about Opera?
14:55:27 [mattSCR]
ChrisL: I think the answer is that XHTML is supported. If HTML5 isn't going to improve on the situation, then if you need accessibility, you should be using XHTML.
14:55:30 [Al]
14:55:40 [mattSCR]
AaronL: Everyone that I know doing ARIA is doing text/html.
14:55:44 [hsivonen]
14:55:51 [Al]
ack DougS
14:56:14 [ChrisL]
aaron - yes, because shipping text/html for ie and app/xhtml for everyone else is a pain
14:56:24 [mattSCR]
DougS: Expected content authors for ARIA are presumably not newbies. Someone who's making a custom control is not a novice. They're capable of different syntaxes.
14:56:39 [Rich]
14:56:40 [mattSCR]
AaronL: There's a range from newbie all the way to custom widget. Raising the learning curve isn't helping.
14:56:42 [Al]
ack Al
14:56:46 [Rich]
14:56:46 [mattSCR]
14:57:30 [ChrisL]
and we need to enable all points on that experience curve to use it. something that only works for light use and doesn't work for heavy lifting is not desirable
14:57:59 [mattSCR]
Al: We have people with different attitudes toward a standard format. We started out doing ARIA with the extensions available to us, but they were fairly general and open, and suitable for extension vocabularies in a small domain: chemistry, etc.
14:58:27 [ChrisL]
al: work started using well proven extensibility mechanisms grounded in uri space so domain experts can develop their own vocabularies. but accessibility needs to be everywhere
14:59:14 [mattSCR]
Accessibility wants to be a part of the core. We may not have built it perfectly, but what's in ARIA 1 is a collection of terms that should interop with different host languages. It's a different beast.
14:59:16 [Rich]
14:59:18 [Al]
14:59:22 [DanC_lap]
(Al makes an argument parallel to my position on TAG/standardizedFieldValues; to echo it back: we already did the URI-based experiment; it's succeeding; time to make centralized short names.)
14:59:25 [Rich]
ack hsivonen
15:00:50 [ChrisL]
in text/html, dom understands setattrributeNS and getattributeNS but the parser will not do that for you; you have to do it post parsing in script. that works in ff2
15:00:58 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: What works in FF2: if parsed from text/html, then setAttributeNS works from script, but the parser doesn't do that for you.
15:01:50 [ChrisL]
no value for authors that they have to implement namespaces in xml themselves in script. parser should do this
15:02:15 [Rich]
15:02:18 [ChrisL]
so the hyphen methods wont work in ff3 and will work in ff2
15:02:21 [mattSCR]
At is an IBM-authored document for working around with CSS/JS. Doesn't make any sense to do that to authors. Parser should do the right thing. What makes the most sense is to serialize it properly. aria-* is easiest way for authors. Need to do this as early as possible for browsers.
15:02:26 [ChrisL]
15:02:30 [DanC_lap]
q+ raman
15:02:35 [Al]
q+ raman
15:03:36 [Rich]
scribe: Rich
15:03:45 [Rich]
scribe: Matt
15:03:47 [mattSCR]
scribe: mattSCR
15:04:06 [mattSCR]
Concerned about documents being written in various doctypes, with scripts as modules.
15:04:30 [Rich]
15:04:32 [Al]
ack Matt
15:04:35 [Al]
ack Rich
15:04:37 [DanC_lap]
(re "DTD for HTML", the HTML 5 spec treats DTDs and such as implementations rather than as part of the spec, and I don't expect the editors to change their mind on that.)
15:04:37 [Al]
ack raman
15:04:38 [oedipus]
+1 compound documents are a VERY compelling reason to have 1 implementation solution
15:04:39 [Rich]
15:04:45 [Al]
q+ hsivonen
15:04:51 [Rich]
q+ Doug
15:04:52 [Rich]
15:05:22 [ChrisL]
I don't expect user agents to fetch external DTDs, ever
15:05:42 [mattSCR]
Raman: Wasn't advocating enable.js approach. In practice, role and state values come from script, not markup. Dynamic attributes need to change from script. And too complicated to do in markup. HTML5 will have better widget story. HTML 4 content will come through script.
15:06:01 [DanC_lap]
ack hsivonen
15:06:06 [Al]
q+ aaronlev
15:06:28 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: XHTML attribs in SVG: doesn't make it easier for authors than having the aria: namespace in SVG. Only complicates things more.
15:06:51 [mattSCR]
ChrisL: Agree. But having to add colons is an extra burden.
15:07:08 [shepazu]
DS: I agree with Henri on this point
15:07:20 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: Whole point of -* scheme is that no namespace processing is done, and DOM doesn't apply meaning to aria-*. So the XML stack doesn't know about it.
15:07:44 [ChrisL]
s/add colons/add hyphens/
15:07:44 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: Hasn't been explained what practical problem is being solved.
15:07:54 [Rich]
15:08:07 [MichaelC]
q+ to ask if the hyphen approach would be subject to script post processing to put things in the ARIA namespace, or if the ARIA attributes are expected to be out of namespace in HTML 5
15:08:34 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: If SVG takes attributes starting with aria-, there's no collision.
15:08:41 [mattSCR]
ChrisL: That's incorrect.
15:08:49 [Rich]
15:08:53 [Rich]
ack Doug
15:09:52 [MichaelC]
15:10:00 [DanC_lap]
(TESTCASE note... would be nice to have a test for aria- in SVG and collect data on what implementations do, recorded in EARL)
15:10:03 [Al]
15:10:19 [Al]
q+ steven
15:10:54 [mattSCR]
In the SVG spec, you may not add attributes in the same namespace and expect SVG to handle it.
15:11:19 [Al]
15:11:19 [mattSCR]
We would have to add aria to our namespace.
15:11:44 [mattSCR]
DougS: And if ARIA makes a change, we would have to add it to our spec.
15:11:53 [oedipus]
DanC: would you like me to take your EARL suggestion to the ERT (evaluation and repair tools WG that wrote EARL) or is this something you are planning to do yourself?
15:12:01 [Al]
ack aaronlev
15:12:14 [hsivonen]
q+ to say spec org problem not a technical problem
15:12:18 [DanC_lap]
(hmm... I'm not sure the cost of changing the SVG spec is really higher than the cost to authors of namespace declarations. I'd love to get some economics student to study it or something.)
15:12:21 [mattSCR]
AaronL: Having to do things through the DOM really isn't acceptable. Yes, possible, but not everyone is as sophisticated.
15:12:43 [anne]
I don't see what the problem is with adding accessibility support to SVG, HTML, and XHTML without namespaces
15:13:07 [ChrisL]
we would be willing ti add all of aria to the svg spec, if thats what it takes, but then we need to rev svg each time aria changes, and other groups will ask to have their stuff added too
15:13:07 [Rich]
15:13:08 [mattSCR]
When you have to teach ARIA, to people who usually don't want to do it, you want to make it as easy as possible.
15:13:15 [anne]
Also, you have to define the interaction of namespaced attributes and languages anyway. Such as SVG does for XLink and SVG
15:13:27 [anne]
Otherwise SVG would not have to talk about XLink at all for instance...
15:13:32 [ChrisL]
... if its aria:whatever then there is no spec change needed and it already works
15:13:36 [mattSCR]
Only the people in this room really care about this. Most people are just trying to solve real problems.
15:13:37 [Al]
ack steven
15:13:44 [MichaelC]
q+ doug
15:14:16 [mattSCR]
StevenP: We're also talking about MathML, SMIL, etc. By having a standard extensibility mechanism, someone authoring can just use it and create a UA that does stuff with it.
15:14:25 [DanC_lap]
q+ to say I'm not at all suprised to re-visit the level of consensus around the XML namespaces mechanism
15:14:40 [Al]
ack hsiv
15:14:40 [Zakim]
hsivonen, you wanted to say spec org problem not a technical problem
15:15:31 [DanC_lap]
RRSAgent, pointer?
15:15:31 [RRSAgent]
15:16:10 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: Doug's issue isn't a technical issue. When Unicode comes out with an updated version, consumers can use the new characters. SVG could point to an updating spec. When you have a schema, you can put ARIA in a RELAX-NG schema as an include.
15:16:23 [mattSCR]
It's a fallacy to think that the specifiers of the language have to produce a schema.
15:16:27 [oedipus]
examples of xml-based specialized domain markup that may need ARIA: CellML: -- MAGE (MicroArray and Gene Expression ML):
15:17:01 [ChrisL]
15:17:30 [mattSCR]
Even if you wanted to make it part of the spec deliverable, you could add that include file.
15:17:31 [Al]
ack doug
15:17:31 [DanC_lap]
ack doug
15:18:12 [mattSCR]
DougS: I still want to keep underscore on the table. Dash is overloaded. Having underscore gives us the option to do some namespace-like thing in the future.
15:18:13 [ChrisL]
I'm reading and see that the role attribute is **not in a namespace anyway** so I wonder what in fact we are discussing
15:18:14 [Al]
ack DanC
15:18:14 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, you wanted to say I'm not at all suprised to re-visit the level of consensus around the XML namespaces mechanism
15:19:10 [mattSCR]
DanC: I'm not surprised about namespace argument. It was contentious throughout the process. Angry bloggers, etc.
15:19:11 [Al]
15:19:26 [Al]
ack ChrisL
15:19:51 [mattSCR]
ChrisL: If all else fails, read the spec. None of the attributes are namespaced. What are we discussing here? The attribute values.
15:20:02 [mattSCR]
Rich: This is the states document.
15:20:34 [oedipus]
15:22:05 [mattSCR]
ChrisL: It would be easy to add state to RELAX-NG schema for SVG.
15:22:37 [DanC_lap]
just about in /TR/aria-state is on the projector
15:22:40 [DanC_lap]
just above
15:22:46 [mattSCR]
Can add a line of NVDL to point to the right schema.
15:22:53 [hsivonen]
q+ to say ease of authoring should override ease of using NVDL
15:23:05 [mattSCR]
It's already valid.
15:23:15 [mattSCR]
DougS: What if you change the colon to a dash?
15:23:20 [mattSCR]
ChrisL: Then you're screwed.
15:24:01 [MichaelC]
q+ to say ARIA defined by its namespace at the moment
15:24:16 [anne]
q+ to say we're getting away from the problem; this doesn't work for HTML at the moment
15:24:27 [mattSCR]
Al: It's clear that if you're using namespaces, can use namespace-based dispatching for validation. But can you write RELAX-NG so it imports by a match pattern of aria-*?
15:24:41 [DanC_lap]
(indeed, we need to keep in mind the world-wide cost to authors when considering the cost of spec updates. and there are interactions between them, involving the value to the world of a trusted entity like W3C)
15:25:09 [anne]
I would also like to say that making design decisions based on limitations of schema's seems silly at best
15:25:20 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: You can't use a wildcard in the local name. However, you can make a separate include that enumerates aria-* attributes at the time the include was authored, and update the include.
15:25:56 [Rich]
15:26:02 [Rich]
ack hsivonen
15:26:02 [Zakim]
hsivonen, you wanted to say ease of authoring should override ease of using NVDL
15:27:07 [mattSCR]
hsivonen: You can still write RELAX-NG for aria-*. Can also write SAX code to deal with this. Validation technology shouldn't affect authoring.
15:27:31 [mattSCR]
ChrisL: We already had someone altering the SVG spec. That's why we have these rules.
15:29:10 [mattSCR]
Al: Next steps?
15:30:10 [DanC_lap]
(please excuse me; I'm expected elsewhere now.)
15:30:57 [mattSCR]
DougS: role attribute module in SVG would still need colon. Needs to be resolved.
15:31:23 [mattSCR]
Al: HTML WG will consider on Saturday.
15:31:45 [ChrisL]
the problem is "The document MUST conform to the constraints expressed in Appendix A - DTD Implementation, combined with the constraints expressed in its host language implementation."
15:31:51 [mattSCR]
DougS: I propose that in SVG spec we would normatively reference XHTML module to rely on it for semantics.
15:32:09 [mattSCR]
ChrisL: That could be a more focused discussion. We'll report back.
15:32:29 [oedipus]
+1 to DougS' normative reference of XHTML Role module for semantics in SVG
15:32:31 [mattSCR]
Rich: That leaves ARIA modules.
15:33:39 [mattSCR]
Al: Agree that another spec is published controlling aria* attributes, and normatively referenced by conforming specs?
15:34:14 [mattSCR]
Raman: Only risk is that we have two namespacing mechanisms 5 years from now.
15:34:19 [ChrisL]
I suggest that Steve, Doug myself and any other interested parties discuss the xhtml-role conformance requirements
15:34:58 [mattSCR]
DougS: SVG can talk about this later today.
15:35:06 [mattSCR]
StevenP: Can discuss this in HTML CG.
15:35:31 [MichaelC]
15:35:41 [ChrisL]
s/HTML CG/Hypertext CG/
15:35:59 [anne]
15:36:05 [MichaelC]
ack a
15:38:03 [MikeS]
MikeS has left #aria
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ed has joined #aria
15:44:51 [DanC_lap]
DanC_lap has joined #aria
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graouts has joined #aria
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graouts has left #aria
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shepazu has joined #aria
16:15:11 [Al]
RRSAgent, pointer
16:15:11 [RRSAgent]
16:15:59 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MichaelC
16:16:49 [MichaelC]
meeting: ARIA Coordination - PF, HTML, XHTML, SVG
16:17:28 [MichaelC]
zakim, who is present?
16:17:28 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, MichaelC.
16:17:37 [MichaelC]
zakim, who was here?
16:17:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, MichaelC.
16:17:43 [MichaelC]
zakim, who is here?
16:17:43 [Zakim]
sorry, MichaelC, I don't know what conference this is
16:17:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Steven-mobile, karl, chaals, Hixie, Zakim, Al, anne, janina, mattSCR, anthony, oedipus, RRSAgent, MichaelC, cblouch, hsivonen, lisap, tlogan
16:18:07 [MichaelC]
chair: Al_Gilman
16:18:25 [MichaelC]
meeting: ARIA Coordination - PF, HTML, XHTML, SVG
16:18:39 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:18:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MichaelC
16:18:57 [MichaelC]
zakim, bye
16:18:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria
16:19:00 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, bye
16:19:00 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items