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13:59:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/05-ua-irc
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13:59:44 <JR> Zakim, this will be UAWG
13:59:44 <Zakim> ok, JR; I see WAI_UAWG(TP)8:00AM scheduled to start 59 minutes ago
13:59:53 <JR> Meeting: WAI UA
14:00:12 <JR> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2007/nov2007_ua_meeting.html
14:00:47 <JR> Chair: Jim Allan
14:01:04 <JR> Regrets: Peter Parente
14:02:44 <JR> JA: Welcome to our observer this morning: David Singer from Apple
14:02:58 <JR> JA: And HTML5
14:03:15 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #ua
14:03:29 <dsinger> hi, pleased to meet you all
14:04:23 <JR> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2007/WD-UAAG20-20071101/WD-UAAG20-20071101.html
14:08:48 <jallan> DS: explaining HTML5 audio and video tags
14:09:17 <jallan> ... 2 layer proposal. user may have preferences...captions, etc. 
14:09:29 <JR> DS: User has set their preferences
14:10:33 <jallan> .... author also has ability to provide alternate sources for content 
14:10:36 <JR> DS: A set of sources is part of VIDEO
14:11:30 <JR> DS: Some sources have captions etc. some don't
14:11:51 <JR> DS: Some sources would have caprions burned in
14:12:52 <OedipusWrecked> OedipusWrecked has joined #ua
14:13:14 <jallan> JR: set of sources. what are the attributes of the source for captions, audio description?
14:13:20 <JR> DS: Tag has accessibility axes...
14:13:39 <JR> DS: Deliberately silent on accessibility axes
14:14:40 <JR> DS: These are attribs to proposed VIDEO elements in HTML5
14:15:12 <JR> CL: Rich talks about Preference metadata
14:15:29 <dsinger> <video ...> <source src="http://..." type="video/mp4;codecs=avc1,mp4a" ... /> </video>
14:15:55 <jallan> JR: IMS global metadata, ACLIP preferences. allows user to say I want captions
14:16:15 <jallan> ... on author side can specify sources available.
14:16:48 <jallan> ... then negotiation between user preferences and author specified sources.
14:19:36 <JR> DS: Are prefs browser level? System level?
14:19:46 <JR> JA: Now done in player
14:24:25 <jallan> JR: what about gracefully degrading. What about 'alt' fall back content if requested content does not meet user minimum
14:24:46 <JR> DS: if you fall off bottom...
14:25:28 <jallan> DS: then render some default information (video, transcript, etc.)
14:26:52 <JR> DS: VIDEO, AUDIO has alt
14:29:26 <jallan> JA: how does the user get to the alternative content. 
14:34:00 <jallan> all: discussion of sign language ISO code (ASL, signed exact english, etc.) dialects
14:34:32 <dsinger> Example. If the user has asked for
14:34:32 <dsinger>  captions: ?want
14:34:32 <dsinger>  high contrast video: ?don't want
14:34:32 <dsinger> and the video element has
14:34:32 <dsinger> <video ... >
14:34:33 <dsinger>  <source media="all and (captions: dont-want)" ... />
14:34:35 <dsinger>  <source media="all and (captions: either)" ... />
14:34:37 <dsinger> </video>
14:34:39 <dsinger> The second source will be selected for presentation; the second would also be selected if the media attribute were completely omitted.
14:34:42 <dsinger> Once a candidate source has been selected, the UA must attempt to apply the user's accessibility preferences to its presentation, so that adaptable content is presented appropriately.
14:34:45 <dsinger> Example. If the user has asked for
14:34:47 <dsinger>  captions: ?want
14:34:49 <dsinger>  high contrast video: ?don't want
14:34:51 <dsinger> and the video element has
14:34:55 <dsinger> <video ... >
14:34:57 <dsinger>  <source media="all and (captions: dont-want)" ... />
14:34:59 <dsinger>  <source media="all and (captions: either)" ... />
14:35:01 <dsinger> </video>
14:35:03 <dsinger> The second source will be selected for presentation; the second would also be selected if the media attribute were completely omitted.
14:35:06 <dsinger> Once a candidate source has been selected, the UA must attempt to apply the user's accessibility preferences to its presentation, so that adaptable content is presented appropriately.
14:35:09 <dsinger> Example. If the user has asked for
14:35:11 <dsinger> captions: ?want
14:35:13 <dsinger> high contrast video: ?don't want
14:35:15 <dsinger> and the video element has
14:35:17 <dsinger> <video ... >
14:35:19 <dsinger> <source media="all and (captions: dont-want)" ... /> <source media="all and (captions: either)" ... /> </video>
14:35:21 <dsinger> The second source will be selected for presentation; the second would also be selected if the media attribute were completely omitted. 
14:35:26 <dsinger> Once a candidate source has been selected, the UA must attempt to apply the user's accessibility preferences to its presentation, so that adaptable content is presented appropriately. 
14:35:29 <dsinger> <video ... >
14:35:31 <dsinger> <video ... >
14:35:33 <dsinger> http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tags
14:36:10 <jallan> all: discussion of 'high contrast video'
14:38:25 <jallan> DS: what are the a11y axis for audio and video
14:38:57 <jallan> JR: axis are binary preferences
14:39:39 <jallan> JR: author creates many versions. UA depending on axis, choose what to show to the user
14:52:13 <jallan> JR: 4.5 if user jumps to middle, must respect synchronization, what happens to events that were to have fired previous to the jumpin point
15:03:40 <jallan> 4.5 needs further discussion - see wiki
15:04:14 <jallan> all: discussion of embedded player, or native player.
15:08:07 <jallan> DS: should be finding a way to make the player full functioning inside the UA.
15:08:34 <OedipusWrecked> q+
15:09:12 <OedipusWrecked> need access to backplane renderer in order to fire audio events (ACSS) in platform-agnostic manner
15:09:51 <JR> JA: In English?
15:09:57 <OedipusWrecked> me?
15:10:00 <JR> yes
15:10:08 <dsinger> the new html audio and video tags have cue-ranges which cause events to fire on entering and exiting that time range
15:10:13 <dsinger> is that what you want?
15:10:54 <dsinger> which indeed could be used to support accessibility (e.g. flipping the transcript in a parallel div)
15:11:01 <OedipusWrecked> one of the problems charles chen (FireVox) has encountered is that he wants to be able to fire purely aural events without use of a proprietary renderer -- would like to accomplish through OS' default audio renderer (plays event sounds, etc.)
15:11:12 <OedipusWrecked> i will phone in
15:11:48 <dsinger> yes, you will be able to instantiate an audio element in the dom from script and cause it to play
15:12:07 <dsinger> which is ugly in some senses (in that if it's not in the page, the user sees no controls)
15:12:10 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG(TP)8:00AM has now started
15:12:17 <Zakim> +??P3
15:12:21 <OedipusWrecked> ah, but the ultimate goal is to get CSS control of audio rendering
15:12:43 <JR> zakim, ??P3 is really UAWG-F2F
15:12:43 <Zakim> +UAWG-F2F; got it
15:12:45 <dsinger> um, yes, the link between CSS and audio/video and HTML and UAAG is one to explore
15:12:59 <OedipusWrecked> if ACSS includes purely aural events as well as speech, would be bigger buy-in from devs and avoid nasty javascripted hacks
15:13:13 <dsinger> ok
15:13:21 <JR> akim Bridge +1.617.761.6200, conference 82941 ("UAWG1")
15:13:52 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
15:13:56 <Zakim> -UAWG-F2F
15:13:57 <Zakim> +UAWG-F2F
15:15:07 <JR> GR: Will be requesting Aural CSS go from Normative from Informative
15:15:24 <JR> GR: Ask to change from "Speech" to "Aural"
15:15:41 <JR> GR: Charles Chen is developing Speech CSS module
15:15:53 <JR> GR: Hoping to get more vendor buyin
15:16:02 <JR> GR: And getting more user control
15:16:11 <JR> GR: Will be posting to WAI x-tech
15:16:20 <JR> GR: Something author needs to do?
15:16:33 <JR> GR: Depends on browser situation...
15:16:52 <JR> GR: CHarles chen says optimal to use ACSS to get access to backplane renderer\
15:17:15 <JR> GR: Systems reluctant....but safer for CSS to do it that Javascript
15:17:23 <JR> GR: ACSS can be trusted
15:17:29 <JR> JA: UAAG fit?
15:17:47 <JR> GR: Mentions it because David was talking about audio elements in DOMs
15:18:00 <JR> GR: Wanted to point out that we are looking at an alternative
15:18:44 <JR> GR: Gives more control to user to suppress background sounds etc
15:19:12 <JR> DS: Background sounds are a big User Interface prob
15:25:12 <OedipusWrecked> q+
15:25:57 <OedipusWrecked> captioning should include things marked up as such by ARIA
15:26:13 <OedipusWrecked> e.g. describedby and labelledby
15:27:40 <OedipusWrecked> there is also the HTML5 concept of "alternate" to designate alternate versions of a resource - 4.12.3.1. Link type "alternate" : http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#link-type
15:29:51 <OedipusWrecked> q-
15:34:14 <jallan> CL: would be nice if there was a semantic element that associates a transcript with an audio file.
15:35:05 <jallan> GR: explains 'alternate', for transcript of separate language of an audio file
15:37:19 <OedipusWrecked> HTML5 section: 4.4. User prompts
15:37:45 <OedipusWrecked> "alert" "confirm" "prompt" "print" included
15:39:51 <OedipusWrecked> HTML5 Section 4: Web Browsers: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#web-browsers -- "This section describes features that apply most directly to Web browsers. Having said that, unless specified elsewhere, the requirements defined in this section do apply to all user agents, whether they are Web browsers or not. "
15:39:57 <dsinger> thanks, everyone
15:46:29 <OedipusWrecked> key concept: "default view" - The main view through which a user primarily interacts with a user agent is the default view.  The default view of a Document is given by the defaultView attribute on the Document object's DocumentView interface. [DOM3VIEWS]  When a browsing context is first created, it must be created with a single Document in its session history, whose address is about:blank, which is marked as being an HTML documents. The Document must have
15:47:38 <OedipusWrecked> 4.1.2. Auxiliary browsing contexts
15:47:38 <OedipusWrecked> It is possible to create new browsing contexts that are related to a top level browsing context without being nested through an element. Such browsing contexts are called auxiliary browsing contexts. Auxiliary browsing contexts are always top-level browsing contexts. 
16:08:52 <OedipusWrecked> 4.1.3. Secondary browsing contexts: "User agents may support secondary browsing contexts, which are browsing contexts that form part of the user agent's interface, apart from the main content area. :
16:12:16 <jallan> CL:  Instant message: get an audio indicator but focus doesn't change
16:13:57 <jallan> current guideline 5 is very granular. seems outdated. perhaps should have 1 checkpoint with success criteria.
16:15:26 <jallan> compliance discussion
16:16:17 <JR> All: Dicuss GL+success criteria structure like WCAG2 and ATAG2...
16:18:29 <jallan> CL: 3 levels - turn off for explicit request, or off for on load, or off all the time 
16:19:45 <OedipusWrecked> HTML5, 4.4. User prompts: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#user-prompts
16:20:12 <OedipusWrecked> The alert(message) method, when invoked, must show the given message to the user. The user agent may make the method wait for the user to acknowledge the message before returning; if so, the user agent must pause while the method is waiting. 
16:20:12 <OedipusWrecked> The confirm(message) method, when invoked, must show the given message to the user, and ask the user to respond with a positive or negative response. The user agent must then pause as the the method waits for the user's response. If the user response positively, the method must return true, and if the user response negatively, the method must return false. 
16:20:12 <OedipusWrecked> The prompt(message, default) method, when invoked, must show the given message to the user, and ask the user to either respond with a string value or abort. The user agent must then pause as the the method waits for the user's response. The second argument is optional. If the second argument (default) is present, then the response must be defaulted to the value given by default. If the user aborts, then the method must return null; otherwise, the method mu
16:20:18 <OedipusWrecked> The print() method, when invoked, should offer the user the opportunity to obtain a physical form of the document. The user agent may make the method wait for the user to either accept or decline before returning; if so, the user agent must pause while the method is waiting. (This does not, of course, preclude the user agent from always offering the user with the opportunity to convert the document to whatever media the user might want.) 
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16:21:42 <KFord> Hello, phong in now.
16:22:47 <JR> Gr: Spec also discusses auxiliary browsing contexts
16:23:01 <JR> GR: Pron sidebars, new panes, etc
16:23:15 <JR> Pron=Probablyu
16:23:47 <Zakim> +??P14
16:24:04 <jallan> zakim, ??p14 is KFord
16:24:04 <Zakim> +KFord; got it
16:28:03 <OedipusWrecked> HTML5 4.2.3. APIs for creating and navigating browsing contexts by name: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#apis-for
16:28:56 <JR> Guideline: 5.X Manage viewport focus 
16:28:57 <JR> A
16:28:57 <JR> No A 
16:28:57 <JR> AA
16:28:57 <JR> Allow configuration so that if a viewport opens without explicit user request, neither its content focus nor its user interface focus automatically becomes the current focus.
16:28:58 <JR> For graphical user interfaces, allow configuration so that the viewport with the current focus remains "on top" of all other viewports with which it overlaps.
16:29:01 <JR> Allow configuration so that viewports only open on explicit user request.
16:29:03 <JR> When configured per provision one of this checkpoint, instead of opening a viewport automatically, alert the user and allow the user to open it with an explicit request (e.g., by confirming a prompt or following a link generated by the user agent).
16:29:07 <JR> Allow the user to close viewports.
16:29:09 <JR> Ensure that when a viewport's selection or content focus changes, it is at least partially in the viewport after the change.
16:29:12 <JR> Configure opening of viewports with a full user interface chrome. 
16:29:14 <JR> AAA
16:29:16 <JR> No AAA 
16:29:51 <OedipusWrecked> HTML5 4.2.3. APIs for creating and navigating browsing contexts by name: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#apis-for 
16:29:51 <OedipusWrecked> "In ECMAScript implementations, objects that implement the Window interface must have a [[Get]] method that, when invoked with a property name that is a number i, returns the ith child browsing context of the active Document, sorted in document order of the elements nesting those browsing contexts."
16:32:14 <JR> KF: What prob are we trying to solve?
16:32:27 <JR> JA: Starting talking about GL5 ... popup windows
16:32:43 <JR> JA: If popups come up with no user request...make sure confirmed
16:33:01 <JR> JA: BRowser gives opening warning
16:33:19 <JR> JA: Doesn't address lack of chrome sometimes
16:33:33 <OedipusWrecked> respect user preferences for chrome when opening a new instance - this includes scrollbars, address bars, tool bars, and menu (user chooses which ones in preferences)
16:33:51 <JR> KF: In IE7, address bar always showed
16:34:19 <JR> CL: In WCAG, close button required?
16:34:26 <JR> CL: If no chrome close
16:34:26 <OedipusWrecked> respect ALL user preferences for chrome interface when opening a new instance/viewport - this includes scrollbars, address bars, tool bars, and menu (user chooses which ones in preferences)
16:34:59 <JR> JA: Its an overlpa but I thiunk its useful for user agent to add little X to closer
16:35:30 <JR> CL: User agent could override author prefs
16:36:15 <JR> GR: Should say respect ALL user interface prefs when opening new window
16:36:45 <JR> JA: Scrollbars not a req for user agent
16:37:13 <JR> KF: Could mandate some user agewnt interface configuration
16:37:23 <JR> KF: Mandate lots of things in physical world
16:37:37 <JR> KF: In software world do same
16:38:03 <OedipusWrecked> could also say that an option is available via chrome, should be available in new instances
16:38:37 <JR> CL: You can open a modal second browser window?
16:38:51 <OedipusWrecked> often time limitations on popup/notification issued by UA
16:39:17 <OedipusWrecked> need to address disappearing pop-up mechanisms that are informational (if that is what user wants)
16:39:20 <JR> KF: Allow user to config all these things....min bar is apply prefs
16:40:01 <JR> GR: Also need to address dissappearing pop-up mechanisms
16:40:30 <JR> CL, JA: 2.4 Time Independent Interaction prob covers this
16:40:41 <JR> GR: See also 2.4
16:43:24 <OedipusWrecked> q+
16:43:31 <JR> JA: KF and I saying same thing...JA: use blunt instrument and say all windows open with same chrome...
16:43:52 <JR> KF: Saying all windows have to have X number of attributes is harder to get people to do
16:44:06 <JR> JA: Saying configurable is harder
16:44:11 <JR> KF: IN which sense
16:44:43 <JR> KF: Not unsolvable prob...
16:44:57 <JR> KF: Harder to say all windows shall have X
16:45:01 <OedipusWrecked> HTML5 4.1. Browsing contexts: "Events that use the UIEvent interface are related to a specific view (the view in which the event happened); the AbstractView of that view is given in the event object's view attribute. [DOM3EVENTS]"
16:45:29 <JR> GR: Browsing contect part of HTML5....
16:46:07 <jallan> KF: shouldn't burden other users who don't need additional chrome items in new windows
16:47:59 <JR> KF: Ability to config 2nd window with sufficient chrome to get same user interface
16:48:19 <JR> KF: Since may be different on different platforms
16:49:47 <JR> CL: IBM has added some things due to wcag2....don't know about scrollbars...we do close
16:50:19 <jallan> KF: in techniques flesh out specifics for chrome - scroll, resize, close as a minimum
16:50:30 <JR> KF: What about some UA comes along with no scrollbars
16:51:02 <JR> KF: Voice browser....alwasys expected certain command...
16:51:22 <JR> KF: But if command wasn't available in the secondary state
16:51:47 <JR> KF: So in the secondary state the command would be available
16:53:35 <jallan> KF: in techniques flesh out specifics for chrome - scroll, resize, close as a minimum
16:54:12 <JR> JA: Summary....2 things....user agent allows config of chrome...and that... 
16:54:17 <OedipusWrecked> 4.1.2. Auxiliary browsing contexts: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#opener
16:54:26 <JR> CL: There already is a toolbars item in UAAG
16:54:38 <JR> CL: Nothing about close, scrollbars or resizing
16:54:52 <JR> CL: Close, resizing in wcag2
16:57:11 <JR> JA: Reading wcag2...."resize and wrap"...
16:57:57 <OedipusWrecked> GJR: enable content wrapping in restricted viewports
16:59:00 <OedipusWrecked> GJR: if a scrollbar is unavailable or not applicable, enable content wrapping to fit the restricted viewport
17:00:56 <JR> JA: Scaling font size still works in some of these secondary windows
17:07:56 <JR> Action JA: Will propose a new checkpoint covering all viewports - what configurations are needed.
17:08:25 <OedipusWrecked> make sure to cross-check with HTML5 4.1.5 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#browsing especially point 5
17:19:50 <JR> JR: Noticed that scrollbars implicit in normative glossary
17:20:09 <JR> JA: Like bring all these things together into one checkpoint
17:21:39 <OedipusWrecked> HTML5 on Rendering: (section 10) http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#rendering - "Terms that need to be defined include: sizing of embedded content"
17:22:20 <JR> GR: THere is an opportunity on HTML5 section 10...about rendering
17:22:44 <JR> GR: Talking about that this morning...video rendering stuff
17:25:22 <JR> JA: Sometimes better to play media in sep. window
17:25:34 <JR> JA: But David Singer was saying context lost
17:26:12 <JR> KF: Devil's Advocate: People will ask what's so bad about opening it in full client. 
17:26:27 <JR> GR: Problem especially in Captcha
17:26:50 <OedipusWrecked> GJR: example of context being lost -- audio renderer opens, grabs focus, have to get back to UA in timely manner to enter CAPTCHA code; needed so that user can rewind, slowdown, etc. to compensate for background noise embedded to foil voice-recog software
17:29:33 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
17:29:42 <Zakim> -KFord
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18:29:05 <JR> JA: 2 minute warning
18:36:55 <JR> JA: Starting!
18:38:59 <JR> JR: Why does AT want to write to DOM
18:39:07 <JR> CL: One example is longdesc....
18:39:35 <JR> CL: AT could put in a link ie. do a repair
18:39:46 <JR> JA: Taking with raman and chen...
18:40:04 <JR> JA: Could use XUL to fix this
18:40:14 <JR> CL: Security concerns
18:41:12 <JR> CL: In HPR...could write back to DOM...user entered text
18:42:22 <oedipus> plus CSS generated pseudo-labels such as "Start Quote" q:before ( content="Start Quote: "
18:42:26 <JR> CL: No API at the moment for doing this - HPR did it with Javascript statements (in proces)
18:43:14 <JR> JA: Thinks GR's example does not write to DOM?
18:43:24 <JR> CL: CSS does not write to DOM
18:43:49 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
18:43:58 <JR> JR: Why?
18:44:28 <JR> CL: Because CSS supposed to separate presentation from content
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18:44:56 <JR> GR: New CSS3 providing expansion for acronyms
18:46:11 <JR> JA: So even more content being created and not going into DOMs or access APIs
18:46:27 <JR> GR: Right needs to go in
18:47:06 <JR> GR: Can already do OL, UL switch in CSS
18:47:32 <JR> GR: An UA can't tell which
18:48:10 <JR> CL: OK so now we say use XML infoset....
18:48:17 <JR> CL: Now do we expand?
18:48:29 <oedipus> q+
18:48:31 <JR> CL: Can user agent do anything?
18:48:44 <oedipus> DSSSL is a document tree transformation and style language in with many adherents in the SGML community. DSSSL resources on the Web
18:48:57 <oedipus> http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/sun-info/standards/dsssl/draft/
18:49:23 <JR> GR: One way of addressing this...
18:49:46 <JR> GR: Haven't read the draft yet
18:50:32 <Zakim> +??P5
18:51:16 <JR> JA: Do this by saying it's UL then putting styles on LI
18:51:54 <JR> CL: Could put more responsibility back on user agent for things that it generates
18:52:09 <JR> CL: Need to broaden beyond XML infoset?
18:53:10 <JR> CL: Follows link "infoset"...not very helpful
18:54:50 <JR> JR: Wonder if "semantic information"
18:55:29 <JR> KF: Shouldn't it be if User Agent knows about semantic info...it should convey to DOM and any other APIs
18:55:53 <JR> JA: Is it semantic?
18:57:10 <JR> CL: Yes...
18:57:22 <JR> All: Example of UL, OL discussed
18:57:43 <oedipus> CSS3 Generated and Replaced Content Module: http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-css3-content-20030514/
18:57:49 <JR> JA: Browser wouldn't turn UL to OL might instead go int oLI's ("1."_
18:58:26 <JR> CL: At the moment too HTML centric
18:58:34 <oedipus> 4. Pseudo-elements: "Pseudo-elements also provide style sheet designers a way to assign style to content that does not exist in the source document."
18:59:20 <JR> GR: In generate and replace content CSS module....
19:00:05 <JR> GR: We just say anything that generates content that does not exist in the source document should be included in the DOM
19:00:33 <JR> CL: Or content that is define by something outside of DOM?
19:01:35 <JR> CL: User agent writes DOM and access API
19:01:55 <oedipus> For example, the following rule replaces the content of <abbr> elements with the contents of the element's title attribute: 
19:01:55 <oedipus> abbr { content: attr(title); }
19:01:55 <oedipus> The following rule inserts the string "Note: " before the content of every P element whose "class" attribute has the value "note": 
19:01:55 <oedipus> P.note:before { content: "Note: " }
19:02:56 <jallan> JR: what about short lived information. 
19:03:08 <jallan> ... from multimedia
19:03:14 <JR> CL: Generally no multimedia stuff gets into DOM
19:04:38 <JR> CL: Had CSS problem before with colouring characters etc?
19:05:28 <JR> GR: Yes asking for that, in W3C style sheed for DIFF colours are not named...they are Hex
19:06:05 <JR> GR: Currently not able to search for hex - need named colours
19:06:43 <JR> JA: Range of hex?
19:07:04 <JR> GR: Burden is on ATs to recognize by hex and RGB
19:07:52 <JR> KF: user can understand RGB?
19:08:18 <JR> GR: WCAG rule is do not rely on color alone
19:08:55 <JR> GR: Will report back from Willy Wonker (orca)
19:09:09 <oedipus> s/Wonker/Walker
19:09:36 <JR> Action CL: To broaden the defintion in 6.1 beyond infoset to cover thing like CSS
19:10:20 <JR> CL: Another Problem is that no is complying with Write Access...
19:10:31 <JR> CL: Do we need to keep this?
19:12:14 <JR> KF: Not sure I would want that?
19:12:22 <JR> JA: And if no problem
19:13:37 <JR> CL: In UAAG 1.0 if you can change as user, shouldn't AT be able to do the same thing
19:14:15 <JR> KF: Can do SetValue etc. to MSAA
19:14:40 <JR> CL: So MSAA has some write access by ATs
19:14:51 <JR> KF: At the rendered content level
19:15:00 <JR> KF: not at DOM level
19:15:17 <JR> KF: AT can't check box at DOM
19:16:08 <oedipus> IA2 perspective: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/IAccessible2/Minutes/20071002
19:16:56 <JR> KF: IE gets info back from MSAA to check a checkbox
19:17:13 <oedipus> Q+
19:17:22 <oedipus> MSAA's IAccIdentity::getIdentityString can be used to get a unique ID for an object.
19:18:45 <JR> KF: FF's MSAA implementation prob the same
19:19:49 <JR> GR: I want to let people know about mapping between Icc2 to ATSPI
19:20:07 <JR> KF: ATSPI has a document interface
19:20:22 <JR> KF=GR
19:20:54 <cklaws> http://live.gnome.org/GAP/AtkGuide
19:21:16 <oedipus> http://www.gnome.org/~billh/at-spi-new-idl/html/html/classAccessibility_1_1Document.html
19:21:19 <JR> JA: 10mins till ARIA discussion
19:22:25 <JR> CL: In 6.4, note several GLs should be combined....
19:22:40 <JR> CL: But in general some defs needed....
19:22:52 <JR> CL: Programmatically accessible...
19:23:22 <JR> CL: Add a definition of "programmatic access" and "programmatic read access" based on the WCAG definition of "programmatically determined", such as "exposed to an assistive technology through an accessibility API that is supported by commonly available assistive technology." 
19:24:05 <JR> JR: Where we stand on access API's vs. DOM?
19:24:43 <JR> CL: We should consider combining 6.1 - 6.4. The techniques sections describe why there are separate guidelines - separating what info from how to provide, and HTML vs DOM vs non-HTML vs graphical content. But there is a lot of duplication. Need to decide if UAAG should require both DOM and accessibility APIs, especially in light of the fact that ATs don't want to get ARIA info out of the DOM. 
19:25:11 <JR> CL: Are we really trying to say EVERYTHING needs to go to both?....
19:25:23 <JR> CL: Or just out of accessibility API?
19:25:53 <JR> CL: Believe Scr Readers use DOM only as backup today.
19:26:17 <oedipus> Q+
19:26:29 <JR> KF: Hold on...but in practice those AT prods built on DOM are happy...
19:26:36 <JR> KF: Divergent paths
19:27:08 <JR> CL: In Process goes to DOM, out of process goes to access API
19:27:47 <JR> JR: So new product...would we say both?
19:28:07 <oedipus> GJR: HTML5 VERY DOM-heavy; scripting crucial part of Web Forms 2.0 and XForms
19:28:14 <JR> CL: Yeah - in process, out process is an effeciency thing
19:28:32 <JR> KF: Have to do both!
19:28:37 <JR> CL: Agree
19:29:01 <JR> CL: But we've never asked for full buyin on accessAPI
19:29:34 <JR> CL: Do we want ability of ATs to use either?
19:29:54 <oedipus> +1 to CL's in-process / out-process efficiency
19:30:10 <oedipus> q-
19:30:22 <JR> JA: Lean towards both due to efficiency
19:30:44 <JR> JA: In section 508....lots of accessAPI stuff
19:31:54 <JR> CL,JA,KF,GR: Should be to rely on only one.
19:32:42 <JR> CL: Won't be one to one....
19:32:48 <jallan> JR: should be able to get all a11y information needed from either the DOM or API depending on efficiency
19:33:06 <JR> CL: AccessAPI...one call might make 100 DOM calls
19:33:17 <JR> CL: But can get that info
19:33:45 <JR> GR: Also will be essential for compiound docs
19:33:59 <JR> KF: AccessAPIs job will be info amalgamation
19:34:07 <JR> CL: THird point on 6.1...
19:34:31 <JR> CL: Don't know how to define Adaptive Interface
19:35:02 <JR> JA: We resolved to move forward on DOM and accessibility API
19:35:53 <JR> JA: Maybe tomorrow morning we take up 6...
19:36:13 <JR> JA: Let's stop here
19:36:55 <JR> GR: Regrets for 1.5 to 2 hrs tomorrow
19:37:20 <JR> KF: Will also need to be later tomorrow.
19:38:48 <JR> Topic: ARIA questions....
19:39:00 <JR> 1. Is there a way that UA can find out about active area refresh rate? 
19:39:07 <JR> 2. Is it reasonable for the user to override the authors timing intervals. 
19:39:12 <JR> 3. UA group concerned about conflicts between content-based and UA-baes keyboard navigation and control 
19:39:17 <JR> 4. How do you envision the ARIA experience for non-AT users? Navigating live regions, etc.? 
19:39:28 <JR> 5. Define "adaptive interface"?
19:40:20 <JR> CL: PLUS Do they see a problem requiring full implementation both DOM and accessAPI for all access info.
19:43:30 <jallan> CL: there is no DOM on Linux. Yet, UAAG requires. 
19:43:51 <jallan> then perhaps we need either DOM or a11y api
19:44:18 <JR> JA: Back to ARIA questions...
19:45:14 <JR> JA: Sort of thinking of live regions as frames....
19:45:34 <JR> CL: Imporant thing is getting info on changes
19:45:54 <oedipus> mozilla live regions example (alerts from buttons): http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/alert
19:46:23 <oedipus> need FF2/FF3 to test
19:46:46 <JR> KF: Up to AT product...
19:47:05 <JR> KF: Ex. of page listing who is talking
19:47:42 <JR> KF: UA not responsible, AT is
19:49:19 <JR> CL,GR: Bug in dhtml example
19:49:32 <JR> JA: Title on live regions?
19:49:48 <JR> CL: No but needs role?
19:50:10 <JR> GR: PF asked for title to be predefined attribute
19:51:36 <JR> GR: aria title could be added to page, other stuff
19:52:37 <JR> GR: To make more universal wanted to add to XHTML role module
19:53:15 <JR> JA: BAck to my issue...
19:53:27 <JR> JA: THinking of page with stock ticker...
19:53:38 <JR> JA: No title on my stock ticker???
19:54:00 <JR> KF: Agreement with Jim?
19:54:30 <JR> CL: Are we equating with a live portlet?
19:54:36 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/LiveRegion
19:54:50 <JR> CL: In ticker maybe it's just the price.
19:55:45 <JR> GR: Can used owned-by, described-by, etc
19:56:27 <JR> JA: So title could be used to title live area?
19:57:36 <JR> JA: Brings up issue of when titles collide....link with title plus acronym expansion
19:59:00 <JR> JA: SHould live regions be explicilty and programmatically identified?
19:59:04 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/LabelDescribe
19:59:33 <JR> CL: Back to Q3...
19:59:54 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/Navigation
20:00:05 <cklaws> *ckl: 2. Establish and document how the user agent resolves key binding conflicts between the user agent user interface, user agent extensions (e.g plug-ins), HTML elements (i.e. accesskeys), and ?JavaScript functions (i.e. keypress events). If a keystroke is not defined by the user agent user interface,the user agent should pass it on to the user agent extensions, HTML elements, then ?JavaScript functions, in that order. Not sure we should be this prescriptive - j
20:01:08 <JR> CL: Missed anything - not sure about extensions?
20:01:46 <JR> JA: Asked about that...something in Firefox accessibility but no checks
20:02:41 <oedipus> http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/spreadsheet
20:02:44 <JR> GR: Othe day - looking at ctrl-alt-m...kept getting OS's minefield
20:03:50 <JR> KF: Struggled with this on IE
20:04:11 <JR> CL: But should we be prescriptive?
20:05:15 <JR> GR: One problem is keys are often platform specific
20:06:11 <Zakim> -??P5
20:16:54 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
20:17:57 <Al> Al has joined #ua
20:31:04 <JR> ok...so we are in PF group now...
20:31:18 <oedipus> same dialin info?
20:31:35 <JR> no unfortunately....
20:31:35 <jallan> jallan has joined #ua
20:31:49 <oedipus> ok -- i'll listen to IRC
20:32:57 <KFord> is there phone or should I just do IRC?
20:33:06 <clc4tts> clc4tts has joined #ua
20:33:14 <chaals> chaals has joined #ua
20:33:18 <oedipus> i don't think a phone is available -- i think they are in the PF meeting room
20:33:28 <cblouch> cblouch has joined #ua
20:33:39 <tlogan> tlogan has joined #ua
20:33:42 <JR> we will be meeting in this IRC channel
20:33:43 <chaals> oedipus, correct
20:34:23 <tlogan> scribe:tlogan
20:34:29 <MikeS> MikeS has joined #ua
20:34:32 <chaals> oedipus, should we try to skype you in?
20:35:03 <JR> Gregory I need your skype name.
20:35:21 <tlogan> topic:UAG Meeting
20:35:30 <KFord> If you can do a skyple conference I'm kellford1967.  If not IRC is fine for me.
20:37:34 <tlogan> Jim: First question: Do they see a problem requiring full implementation both DOM and accessAPI for all access info
20:37:56 <tlogan> Jim: Originally UAG written heavily into DOM, in last five years moved to API world
20:38:13 <tlogan> Jim: Out of process technology like screen reader, you want to use accessibility api because more efficient
20:38:17 <tlogan> Jim: In process you want to use DOM
20:38:52 <tlogan> Jim: Thinking of user agent having to do DOM and API implementation so that no matter where you are you can get the information
20:39:32 <tlogan> RS: Depends on OS whether you are in/out of proc.  There are platforms that won't have accessibility APIs.  For example PocketPC you can get to the DOM but can't get to MSAA because not available on platform
20:39:52 <tlogan> RS: Some ATs are extensions to browsers like FireVox which accesses DOM directly.
20:40:08 <tlogan> RS: You must support DOM because its one area that W3C controls.  At a minimum support DOM
20:40:24 <tlogan> CL: To support DOM does that mean you have to support both a way to access it in proc and out of proc means to access it?
20:41:02 <tlogan> RS: I don't think it matters, an app can get in process.  Took ATVs awhile to figure out how to get in-proc with com app but they do it now.
20:41:13 <tlogan> Jim: Follow-up, I thought Firefox on Linux doesn't have a DOM
20:41:23 <tlogan> CL: They do but they don't have public API to access it
20:41:30 <tlogan> CC: They have DOM Inspector
20:41:51 <tlogan> RS: DOM API can get access to on Linux
20:42:04 <tlogan> CL: AT like Orca can't access DOM, its only available from javascript
20:42:53 <tlogan> RS: Reason JAWS goes into IE for information is because MSAA isn't rich enough for what they want to do.  What we did in Firefox we added IAccessible2 on top of MSAA to get everything you need.
20:43:12 <tlogan> CL: We don't need to know state of the world.  What is recommended techniques/guidelines for future
20:43:49 <tlogan> CC: AT-SPI has a tree, and it is in parallel with DOM tree on Linux.  You can get to it.  RS:But you cannot make DOM API calls through AT-SPI on Linux.
20:44:23 <tlogan> CL: Today UAG says you must require DOM support but it does not require support of platform API
20:45:11 <tlogan> RS: If it's available then API must be supported.  Did demo of JAWS with Firefox.  Went in ran it and everything spoke as if desktop application.
20:46:19 <tlogan> resolution: Requirement is DOM first, then must do platform API support
20:46:37 <tlogan> JA: We will require both
20:46:59 <tlogan> RS: 508 is going way of requiring API support
20:47:14 <tlogan> RS: Caret support you will need API support for rich editing scenarios on web
20:48:02 <tlogan> JA: UAG we want to give user as much control as possible over what is going on.  Time-independent interaction, you know timing with html refresh.  With ARIA your refresh rate for whatever region/thing is hidden in javascript somewhere and user agent can't go in and find out refresh rate
20:49:14 <tlogan> CC: Active area something controlled by user interaction.  Say we get error refresh.  Monitoring of refresh is possible, but exact time is not able to be specified
20:49:24 <Al> q+
20:49:40 <tlogan> RS: Scripted applications you have to separate what is a user generated change to content vs what is run in the background
20:50:14 <tlogan> RS: Things run in the background.  Looking at for ODF, if we know something generated in background then we should be able to control the timing of this.  If there is refresh need to be able to slow that down.
20:50:29 <tlogan> RS: Question I have, how much do you want to push off to a WCAG discussion?
20:51:02 <tlogan> JA: This is one area where we have overlap with WCAG.  Some timing author can control, me as user I should be able to tell author of content this is too fast for me slow it down
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20:51:43 <tlogan> *going to try to reconference in gregory*
20:52:31 <tlogan> AG: Distinction is made between genuine realtime data and criticality information (serious exception, needs to get user's attention regardless*
20:54:05 <tlogan> AG: Charles has criticality covered through channels.  Main channel and Notify channel to allow agent to do filtering.  In context of chat application it is easy to get drowned with more input than you can keep up with.  Chat mode that is working with ARIA can be browsed/reviewed independent of what is happening in realtime.  
20:54:41 <tlogan> AG: ARIA doesn't have generic buffering policy.  But chat scenario available demonstrates different modes available
20:55:28 <tlogan> AG: Advertisements want more attentions.  They are paying for marketing to site.  Going to be hard to get this deployed in marketplace given that ads are paying to be brought to user's attention on site
20:55:46 <tlogan> CC: Programatically you know where all the live regions are.  Get a list of where live regions are and change them on the fly
20:56:33 <tlogan> AG: Politeness attribute can be set.  Politeness should be static property available.  
20:56:38 <tlogan> CC: It should be dynamic
20:56:52 <tlogan> CC: Right now coarse level of control where you can turn all notifications off
20:57:03 <tlogan> CC: Something being worked on for firevox interface
20:57:22 <tlogan> CC: Going to be for power users to configure
20:57:42 <tlogan> AG: How do you brief user of what this region is
20:57:52 <tlogan> CC: If there is title for region you give them that, if not then give them text
20:58:12 <tlogan> AG: Reasoning from web security context, if they recognize that ad comes from Nike.  They could use that information to set politness level
20:58:45 <tlogan> JA: Started talking about timing and then went into politeness.  Are timing/politeness related?
20:59:40 <tlogan> RS: In ARIA we can mark an area as a live area.  We can tell you the politeness level of how you process that section.  If its "rude" you have to interupt user right now with whatever it is.  if "polite" then in that scenario the app can still interupt quite frequently.  It would be helpful to be able to set how often more polite interruptions should occur
20:59:46 <KFord> The skype call dropped out.  But the audio isn't so clear so I'll just stick with IRC.
21:00:35 <tlogan> AG: JA thinking about timing.  Refreshes that happen too quickly to be spoken.  
21:01:02 <tlogan> CC: Have two separate queues, queue it up in main or queue it up in notify.  main queue items with high priority will step on notify items with low priority
21:03:21 <clc4tts> Correction: You have two separate queues. Things in the main queue will only step on things with lower priority in the main queue. Things in the notify queue will only step on things with lower priority in the notify queue. However, if things of equal politeness are in both channels, then the one in the notify channel will go first. 
21:03:22 <tlogan> RS: Live property tells you how significant a change is.  *group reviews definition of live property*
21:03:56 <tlogan> CL: Does Live indicate the whole area even if a small section may change?
21:04:06 <tlogan> AG: You should put the property on the small section where changes occur
21:04:58 <tlogan> CC: Polite - if user not doing anything.  They are just sitting there.  Then AT will present those
21:06:10 <tlogan> CC: Assertive - If user is doing something, as soon as they are done, speak the notificaton.  In FireVox you can tell it to read whole page.  Polite wait until whole read page is done.  Assertive wait until sentence is done.  Rude: Stop user action immediately and add notification
21:06:57 <tlogan> CC: Assertive typing in form field and they make a mistake.  As soon as user pauses it knows to fire notification
21:07:11 <tlogan> TL: How do you define pause?
21:07:20 <tlogan> CC: Up to AT, in FireVox uses 3 seconds
21:09:03 <tlogan> AG: Exact handling not defined in spec.  ATs can define whats good for user experience.  Timing of breaking into queue is known to AT rather than up to author of content
21:09:59 <tlogan> AG: No, there is not a way that UA can find out about active area refresh rate
21:10:27 <tlogan> JA: Question: Is it reasonable for the user to override the authors timing intervals
21:10:37 <tlogan> RS: Do you want to correct as UAG if author didn't follow WCAG?
21:11:22 <tlogan> JA: There are so many checkpoints in UAG that say allow configuration.  
21:11:47 <tlogan> AG: If DOM exposes read/write interface.  Then AT can come in and implement user's policies.  
21:12:16 <tlogan> CC: AT out of process can still know where event is coming from.  Can always map events from certain section to off
21:12:28 <tlogan> AG: User should be able to set disposition of regions
21:13:53 <tlogan> AG: Screen refreshes at dangerous rates.  Should look at option of having a check on authors so that they can't specify these dangerous levels
21:14:46 <tlogan> JA: User of non-screenreader should be able to specify work related to stopping animations etc.  
21:14:58 <tlogan> AG: RS this relates to work you are doing in Fluid
21:15:52 <tlogan> AG: Control of embedded objects.  Does necessary control flow down to embedded objects
21:16:40 <tlogan> JA: Question 3: Concerned about conflicts between keyboard nav and control.  Establish and document how UA resolves key binding conflicts between OS, AT's, user agent user interface, user agent extensions, HTML elements(ie accesskeys) and JavaScript functions(ie keypress events)
21:17:15 <tlogan> JA: If a keystroke is not defined by user agent user interface, the user agent should pass it on to the user agents extensions, HTML elements, then Javascript functions in that order.  Not sure we should be this prescriptive?
21:17:46 <oedipus> i updated minefield between the 2 times -- OS stole keystroke in last night's build, not with today's midday build
21:18:36 <tlogan> CM: OS gets keystroke first.  If OS doesn't keep it, passes it on to UA.  When UA gets it, should they hand it to javascript? Or should they respect UI conventions first? I would argue insane to hand it to javascript first.  Every web developer would argue they should get it first (which is what happens today) which means any web app can screw up any browser ui.  
21:19:14 <tlogan> CL: We should recommend that UA handles it first for their own UI before giving to javascript?
21:20:13 <tlogan> RS: We started doing device independent events
21:20:47 <tlogan> AG: I think this is pretty fundamental and parallel to web security context problem.  At present we should go for what we think is right
21:20:48 <oedipus> bang important needs to belong to user
21:21:30 <tlogan> AG: Think we need three layers.
21:21:33 <tlogan> CL: What about extensions
21:21:57 <tlogan> CM: Browsers handle extensions.  Extensions are part of browser level functionality
21:22:26 <tlogan> CM: Where scripts come in is tricky.  I think generally bad design for script to set up its own keyboard reading stuff.  It assumes a keyboard and that is just wrong because not all scenarios have one
21:23:00 <tlogan> CM: AccessKey mechanism in HTML lets you trigger things on old cell phones, easy to make use on any platform.  Make that work
21:23:27 <tlogan> CM: This will be huge shift for web developers.  As a browser-maker we are loathe to break web applications because that is fastest reason for people shifting away from user agent
21:24:33 <tlogan> CM: Browser provides AccessKey and browser tells you what key activates.  If i have HTC phone with four way rocker and 2 buttons i can call up accesskey mode and get a list of the accesskeys (tab down to one i want and click it) but on phone i can't generate key event to run a function
21:25:26 <tlogan> CM: If author users javascript to make up keyboard navigation, browser is at edge of capability of being able to configure itself to make it work
21:25:35 <tlogan> CL: Thats the basis of all these new widgets right?
21:27:15 <tlogan> RS: Why don't we move to more declaritive model of events for authors
21:27:42 <tlogan> JA: Do we get prescriptive about this?  What can we say in guideline/checkpoint about this
21:28:16 <tlogan> CM: Say "browser should ensure that browser ui functions are not interuppted by scripts"
21:28:41 <tlogan> CM: We aren't going to be able to follow this though.  We won't be able to make this change quickly because it will require shift in web developers
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21:29:00 <tlogan> CM: if you don't prescribe it, then there will be no goal.  this is an aspirational goal.  
21:29:57 <tlogan> CM: still should prescribe it, it wont be quick, but if we get top tier providers doing it the right way.  opera can't break facebook, airline site, bank site, most games etc.  i can afford to break widgets and other classes of authors i can afford to break.  once the big guys doing it the right way, i can tell the people i break to follow their lead
21:30:36 <tlogan> CL: We had guidelines for how to expose what accesskeys exist.  we can't do that for javascript
21:31:05 <tlogan> AG: we were discussing a way this morning that you could.  if chris made table of keyboard shortcuts in DOM with known role.  then it could be read.  point is there are ways that this info could be exposed
21:31:29 <tlogan> CM: Easy way is make things access keys.  Second way have a role of "access key" in ARIA and have a prescribed way to expose it
21:32:30 <tlogan> RS: nice thing of ARIA it doesn't break existing browsers
21:34:35 <oedipus> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_to_API_mapping
21:35:22 <tlogan> CB: Want one access key to open a currently focused mail item.  How would i declare that?  
21:35:41 <tlogan> AG: may require attribute template. i think you could define generic calling profile for that method
21:35:50 <oedipus> "When a direct API mapping is not possible, a role string is used. In ATK/AT-SPI the role string is exposed via the "xml-roles" object attribute (in fact the original ARIA role string is always exposed there)."
21:39:32 <tlogan> JA: Question: ARIA says Define mapping role/state/properties to an adaptive interface. what is adaptive interface?
21:39:50 <tlogan> RS: Might want to go in and change spreadsheet to headers.
21:40:06 <tlogan> CM: Wii is great example.  We rerender interface to match the wii controller
21:40:18 <tlogan> AG: An adapative interface is any interface that has been modified to improve usability for the user
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21:41:30 <tlogan> MM: Adaptive interface vs User Agent, do not see a big distinction
21:42:09 <tlogan> RS: With ARIA you get more semantics, so User Agents will be able to adapt more
21:42:29 <tlogan> RS: If everything was divs and spans what would you do with it?
21:43:16 <tlogan> CL: Adaptive is more about rendering than the API?  It was confusing in documentation, the distinction
21:43:28 <tlogan> AG: We want both to be supported
21:44:04 <tlogan> JB: ARIA does lots of great stuff for AT users.  What is value-add for non AT user
21:44:43 <tlogan> CM: Take ARIA information to adapt page to a phone.  You can change the controls.  Able to swap in different controls for phone because it has that awareness
21:45:18 <tlogan> CC: Live regions could be used to provide more granularity over visual notifications to user
21:46:35 <tlogan> RS: With main content defined through ARIA you can reposition main content on the fly rather than having to use skip navs
21:47:22 <tlogan> RS: XHTML Access Module displayed on screen.  
21:48:08 <tlogan> RS: HTML we could have Role=Access and then have propeties defined for it that XHTML Access Module has
21:48:39 <tlogan> RS: You can suggest key mapping with this element.  Opera could tell you that you can't have that key binding so you can specify a backup
21:48:49 <tlogan> AG: key property is author's nomination for that key
21:49:09 <tlogan> JA: if you have 4 key bindings.  then you put 4 access modules on one div or span
21:49:15 <tlogan> AG: correct
21:50:41 <tlogan> CL: HTML5 hasn't looked at this?
21:50:52 <tlogan> RS: They kind of.  They have something called a Command element.  They don't have support for roles
21:52:18 <tlogan> JA: We can reference Access Element in techniques?
21:52:23 <tlogan> RS: Its a proposal, not a current solution
21:53:03 <tlogan> AG: we have allies for getting intent based events implemented.  
21:53:56 <tlogan> RS: maybe charles would want to do an add-on for firevox related to this
21:54:09 <tlogan> CC: need actual test cases to implement this feature
21:54:14 <tlogan> RS: we could create some
21:54:21 <tlogan> AG: CB has the application
21:54:36 <tlogan> CC: what tells you what function actually is
21:54:40 <tlogan> RS: you can use title attribute
21:54:51 <tlogan> CC: you have more propeties than the 4 in the spec
21:55:02 <tlogan> AG: since id, title are globals they are already available on the Access Module element
21:55:05 <tlogan> CC: what about modifier keys
21:55:16 <tlogan> RS: we could do that, need to discuss
21:56:18 <tlogan> CC: there are times when you don't want modifiers, and times that you do
21:56:36 <tlogan> CM: as browser want to offer least pain to activate a control
21:56:46 <tlogan> CC: as page developer, i might want to pick single key
21:56:55 <tlogan> CM: which one are you going to pick given most are already taken
21:58:25 <tlogan> CC: should let user author specify they want to use modifiers.  then let browser do remapping if they don't want to honor initial request
22:01:56 <tlogan> CM: currently browser lets author do whatever they want.  
22:02:06 <tlogan> CC: let browser specify preferences
22:02:18 <tlogan> CM: should let users define how important specific functions are
22:03:19 <tlogan> CC: author provides mnemonic. go to google reader. to do feed reads press "SHIFT+N" you will navigate down feed tree. it doesn't matter if its CTRL+N or something
22:03:42 <tlogan> CM: want way to have navigation control be a navigation control
22:04:39 <tlogan> CC: let author say "SHIFT+N" "SHIFT+P" for feed traversal "N" for article traversal.  take all of that. on mobile phone don't have these keys. should do logical mapping
22:05:03 <tlogan> CM: semantics in roles, hint that both actions are traversals then they should use similar interaction model
22:05:11 <oedipus> mnemonics vary with natural language
22:05:32 <oedipus> what works in lang="en" as a mnemonic won't help if lang="pt"
22:07:19 <oedipus> need a way to identify abstractly before mapping can be accomplished
22:07:55 <oedipus> accesskey tokenization?
22:09:13 <oedipus> what do stored prefs do when move from 101-key UA to 10 or 12 key UA?
22:16:20 <jallan_> jallan_ has joined #ua
22:16:25 <Al> Al has left #ua
22:18:19 <JR> We're back in our room now.
22:19:35 <JR> We're wrapping up
22:19:50 <Zakim> -UAWG-F2F
22:19:57 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG(TP)8:00AM has ended
22:19:58 <Zakim> Attendees were UAWG-F2F, Gregory_Rosmaita, KFord
22:20:19 <JR> RRSAgent, make minutes 
22:20:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/05-ua-minutes.html JR
22:20:25 <JR> RRSAgent, set logs public 
22:20:31 <JR> Zakim, bye 
22:20:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
22:20:36 <JR> RRSAgent, bye 
22:20:36 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/05-ua-actions.rdf :
22:20:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JA to Will propose a new checkpoint covering all viewports - what configurations are needed. [1]
22:20:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/05-ua-irc#T17-07-56
22:20:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: CL to To broaden the defintion in 6.1 beyond infoset to cover thing like CSS [2]
22:20:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/05-ua-irc#T19-09-36