17:02:09 RRSAgent has joined #owl 17:02:09 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-owl-irc 17:02:19 All: 41# puts you on the queue 17:02:21 Meeting: OWL 17:02:25 40# takes you off 17:02:34 -??P7 17:02:43 61# mutes 17:02:46 60# unmutes 17:02:47 zhe has joined #owl 17:02:53 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.10.31/Agenda 17:02:54 Uhm, a lot of the Eu people mimght be confused on this point 17:02:55 uli was too 17:03:40 zakim, who is here? 17:03:40 On the phone I see DeborahMcGuiness, Alan, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, Rinke, Ivan, bmotik (muted), ??P30 (muted), MartinD, Sandro, Fabien (muted), [IBM], Zhe_Wu 17:03:44 On IRC I see zhe, RRSAgent, bijan, bmotik, MartinD, Ratnesh, ew, Rinke, vipul, alanr_, dlm, Zakim, sandro, pfps, ivan, trackbot-ng 17:03:47 Adding topics after the fact is easy enough. 17:03:51 +??P7 17:04:03 +??P32 17:04:12 Achille has joined #owl 17:04:18 q 17:04:20 q? 17:04:35 +??P33 17:04:36 zakim, ??p30 is Jeremy 17:04:45 +Jeremy; got it 17:04:45 zakim, ??p33 is me 17:04:48 zakim, ??P32 is bijan 17:04:51 +pfps; got it 17:04:56 zakim, mute me 17:04:59 +bijan; got it 17:04:59 am I muted? 17:05:03 bijan should now be muted 17:05:11 zakim, who is here? 17:05:13 zakim, who is on the call? 17:05:23 On the phone I see DeborahMcGuiness, Alan, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, Rinke, Ivan, bmotik (muted), Jeremy, MartinD, Sandro, Fabien (muted), [IBM], Zhe_Wu, ??P7, bijan (muted), 17:05:25 PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes 17:05:31 ... pfps 17:05:32 On the phone I see DeborahMcGuiness, Alan, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, Rinke, Ivan, bmotik (muted), Jeremy, MartinD, Sandro, Fabien (muted), [IBM], Zhe_Wu, ??P7, bijan (muted), 17:05:37 ... pfps 17:05:39 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.10.24/Minutes 17:05:41 On IRC I see Achille, zhe, RRSAgent, bijan, bmotik, MartinD, Ratnesh, ew, Rinke, vipul, alanr_, dlm, Zakim, sandro, pfps, ivan, trackbot-ng 17:06:56 Zakim, [IBM] is temporarily Achille 17:06:56 +Achille; got it 17:06:56 uli has joined #owl 17:07:02 uli_ has joined #owl 17:07:22 MikeSmith has joined #owl 17:07:24 RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes 17:07:42 +??P0 17:07:54 Who just joined? 17:08:04 And who is here from DERI Galway -- Ratnesh? 17:08:11 Issues List: Migrated all issues from OWLED to Tracker 17:08:11 +MikeSmith 17:08:19 q+ 17:08:23 zakim, ??P0 is me 17:08:23 +uli; got it 17:08:24 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed 17:08:24 yes ratnesh 17:08:33 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed 17:08:40 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Issues 17:08:40 Ratnesh from DERI Galway 17:08:50 Zakim, who is on the call? 17:08:50 On the phone I see DeborahMcGuiness, Alan, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, Rinke, Ivan, bmotik (muted), Jeremy, MartinD, Sandro, Fabien (muted), Achille, Zhe_Wu, ??P7, bijan (muted), 17:08:53 ... pfps, uli (muted), MikeSmith 17:09:16 Zakim, ??P7 is Ratnesh 17:09:16 +Ratnesh; got it 17:09:28 jjc has joined #owl 17:09:30 Fabian has joined #owl 17:09:31 Zakim, who is on the call? 17:09:31 On the phone I see DeborahMcGuiness, Alan, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, Rinke, Ivan, bmotik (muted), Jeremy, MartinD, Sandro, Fabien (muted), Achille, Zhe_Wu, Ratnesh, bijan 17:09:34 ... (muted), pfps, uli (muted), MikeSmith 17:09:55 is there a link to where we are being pointed to look? 17:10:07 q? 17:10:21 Attendees: DeborahMcGuiness, Alan, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, Rinke, Ivan, bmotik, Jeremy, MartinD, Sandro, Fabien, Achille, Zhe_Wu, Ratnesh, bijan, pfps, uli, MikeSmith 17:10:23 ack ew 17:10:27 Issues List: Evan couldn't find an Issue on the Issue List 17:10:48 Issues List: Evan asking about the completeness of the Issues List 17:10:48 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/open 17:11:23 Issues List:: Complete wrt google-code and OWL 17:11:31 q- ??P30 17:11:52 Issues List: Alan suggests adding issues that were not transferred should be added 17:11:53 Why I am not on the attendees list? 17:11:56 ack Jeremy 17:12:15 Sorry, do we have Fabien here today, or only Fabian? 17:12:17 Issues List: Jeremy wants to migrate issues from the OWL comments list 17:12:18 q? 17:12:29 pfps has joined #owl 17:12:34 Attendees: DeborahMcGuiness, Alan, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, Rinke, Ivan, bmotik, Jeremy, MartinD, Sandro, Fabian, Achille, Zhe_Wu, Ratnesh, bijan, pfps, uli, MikeSmith 17:12:35 zakim, mute me 17:12:35 pfps should now be muted 17:12:49 corrected, Fabian. 17:12:51 Thanks! 17:13:20 Less Technical Documents (LTDs): Would like to find User Facing Documents Task Force 17:13:21 q+ 17:13:35 Topic: User-Facing Documents 17:13:42 LTDs: Documents such as OWL 1.0 Overview, Reference, User Guide 17:13:59 Achille has joined #owl 17:14:24 s/Less/Jeremy: Less/ 17:14:25 UFDs: Reuse OWL 1.0 Overview to create OWL 1.1 Overview in time for the Manchester F2F 17:14:51 vipul, don't use "Foo: ....." unless "Foo" is a person's name. 17:15:04 UFDs: Work on the relating to features to requirements - Traceability Matrix 17:15:17 UFDs: Form a task force and report back to the main group 17:15:27 Jeremy: The proposal is to form a Task Force 17:15:56 q? 17:15:57 zakim, unmute me 17:15:58 bijan should no longer be muted 17:16:03 ack bijan 17:16:04 ack Bijan 17:16:31 Bijan: Objection: WG will consider these as publication tracks 17:17:12 Alan: Bijan's points - WG documents should not be the only outlet for the UFDs 17:17:34 Alan: What put to on XML page for OWL for instance 17:17:50 q+ to mention charter 17:18:02 Alan: Appropriate use of WG time .. making sure that this would not interfere with WG Tasks 17:18:02 + +1.408.774.aabb 17:18:07 Alan: Parallel track 17:18:17 Alan: Off WG meetings 17:18:45 Alan: Further approval of documents 17:19:19 (Who is +1.408.774.aabb ? ) 17:19:24 q+ 17:19:29 q? 17:20:02 q+ 17:20:12 ack Jeremy 17:20:12 Jeremy, you wanted to mention charter 17:20:21 Jeremy: Don't want to be not responsive to you 17:20:22 deb next 17:20:29 then ew, bijan 17:20:37 Jeremy: Hence called "Less Technical Documents" 17:20:59 Elisa has joined #owl 17:20:59 q- 17:21:06 q? 17:21:08 zakim, unmute me 17:21:08 bijan was not muted, bijan 17:21:15 Jeremy: Charter Section 2 specifically taks about documents which all 5 of us want to produce 17:21:17 q? 17:21:25 q+ Deb 17:21:27 q+ deb 17:21:28 ack bijan 17:21:36 Bijan: Variety of users 17:21:50 Bijan: Not objecting to producing variety of documents 17:21:51 bijan: "Outreach documents" 17:22:13 Bijan: That is the only or the best way to meeting the requirements of the WG charter 17:22:26 Bijan: Would like a discussion on this 17:22:30 q? 17:22:46 Bijan: Need to sanction whether these are WG documents 17:22:50 q+ 17:23:03 Bijan: People working on these documents should understand that they might not become WG documents. They might not be how we meet the charter requirement. 17:23:11 ack deb 17:23:13 Deborah: Something like OWL 1.1 Overivew document out 17:23:28 No: Deb said OWL 1.0 Overview doc 17:23:38 Deborah: If disagreement about that ... we need a discussion before we put energy in it 17:23:39 Deb: If there is disagreement about whether we'll publish something like this, I'd want to hear that disagreement NOW. 17:23:41 zakim, mute me 17:23:41 bijan should now be muted 17:24:06 Deborah.: OWL 1.1 Overview similar to OWL 1.0 Overview document? 17:24:43 Alan: OWL Overview is simple presentation of features 17:24:58 Alan: Goal is to produce something of that nature 17:25:16 I'll note that I have an interest in working on an Overview document 17:25:28 Alan: Goal of the traceability document is to have features related to a set of use cases in different domains 17:25:41 Alan: Demonstrate the value of OWL 1.1 over OWL 1.0 17:25:46 I am also interested working in an Overview document. 17:26:00 Alan: Issues with some features 17:26:05 zakim, unmute me 17:26:05 bijan should no longer be muted 17:26:40 Bijan: Overview document will be helpful 17:26:53 Bijan: Traceability committed to producing 17:27:16 Bijan: Not convinced that it is useful use of your time 17:27:23 q+ to address longevity 17:27:26 Bijan: Longevity problems 17:27:48 Alan: Have examples where documents didn't age gracefully? 17:27:59 Bijan: Implementation Reports 17:28:02 q? 17:28:07 zakim, who is on the call? 17:28:07 On the phone I see DeborahMcGuiness, Alan, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, Rinke, Ivan, bmotik (muted), Jeremy, MartinD, Sandro, Fabien (muted), Achille, Zhe_Wu, Ratnesh, bijan, pfps 17:28:08 ack alanr_ 17:28:10 ... (muted), uli (muted), MikeSmith, +1.408.774.aabb 17:28:34 Zakim, DeborahMcGuiness is DeborahMcGuinness 17:28:34 +DeborahMcGuinness; got it 17:28:47 zakim, mute me 17:28:47 sorry, Fabian, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 17:29:05 Bijan: Document like requirements document kept live would not be good 17:29:09 zakim, mute me 17:29:09 bijan should now be muted 17:29:20 I am afraid zakim mistakes me for Fabien. How do I change that? 17:29:22 Jeremy: Traceability is a short term document 17:29:31 q+ 17:29:33 +1 to Jeremy's comment 17:29:54 ack jeremy 17:29:54 Jeremy, you wanted to address longevity 17:30:01 ack vipul 17:30:19 q+ 17:30:26 q+ alanr 17:30:41 zakim, unmute me 17:30:41 bijan should no longer be muted 17:30:46 Vipul: we can decide whetehr traceability has long-term value, in the future - we don't need to decide now 17:31:08 Bijan: Communicating to people now 17:31:22 Bijan: WD may not be the best way to do that 17:31:34 Bijan: Feature matrices are very useful for adoption, etc. 17:31:39 q? 17:31:43 ack bijan 17:31:46 Bijan: That gets stale over time 17:32:12 zakim, mute me 17:32:12 bijan should now be muted 17:32:12 Bijan: Have some commitment that they could be updated 17:32:13 q? 17:32:27 q+ 17:32:27 whop yes i did 17:33:07 +q 17:33:11 ack alanr 17:33:14 q+ to ask for action to convene next 'user facing' tf meeting 17:33:14 ack vipul 17:33:59 Deborah: Is OWL 1.0 Overview is a big risk for becoming outdated 17:34:02 I'm not keen on an OWL 1.0 style document - it is rather long 17:34:06 q? 17:34:10 ack dlm 17:34:19 I would have attended the TF but it came up too quickly forme 17:34:25 ack Jeremy 17:34:25 Jeremy, you wanted to ask for action to convene next 'user facing' tf meeting 17:34:28 ACTION: Jeremy to convene the next UFD task force 17:34:28 Sorry, couldn't find user - Jeremy 17:35:09 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Backward_compatibility_audit 17:35:19 Alas, Jeremy, you're not officially in the WG yet, so the tracker can't track actions on you..... 17:35:33 You can put it in my name 17:35:35 alan: Agreement requirement on the definition of backward compatibility 17:35:37 q? 17:35:42 Alan: Task Force for Test Cases 17:35:44 And I'll delegate to my good friend jeremy :) 17:35:47 +??P27 17:35:53 -Jeremy 17:36:07 Zakim, ??P27 is Jeremy 17:36:07 +Jeremy; got it 17:36:16 I can't hear jeremy very well 17:36:23 Jeremy: Its still a bit early to have the test cases 17:36:44 -Jeremy 17:37:05 q? 17:37:06 +??P27 17:37:12 I missed soemthing 17:37:19 Zakim, ??P27 is me 17:37:19 +Jeremy; got it 17:37:20 Alan: OWL 1.0 test cases should run and produce same results as a criteria for backward compatibility 17:37:22 alanr could you restate it? 17:37:29 +1 17:37:30 +1 17:37:32 Sandro: Good starting point 17:37:34 actually some of the test cases *could* change as a result of the extended expressive power of OWL 1.1 17:37:42 Jeremy: Still too early to make new test cases, but not too early to think about how we want to handle them. 17:37:44 zakim, unmute me 17:37:44 bijan should no longer be muted 17:37:45 q+ 17:37:55 Cannot oversee the consequences of such a resolution 17:38:02 zakim, who is talking? 17:38:05 Fabian has joined #owl 17:38:12 Bijan: Could be bugs in test suite 17:38:12 sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (45%), Alan (5%), Vipul_Kashyap (5%), bijan (80%) 17:38:17 +1 to bijan 17:38:19 Bijan: Could be a good starting point 17:38:35 Bijan: It's a good starting point, but I wouldn't want to RESOLVE it, since we may want to break it in small ways. 17:38:54 Sandro: Poilicies around test cases 17:39:12 zakim, mute me 17:39:12 bijan should now be muted 17:39:15 s/Sandro/Jeremny/ 17:39:18 q? 17:39:23 Sandro: Requirement that WG only approve tests that it regarded as correct 17:39:27 ack bijan 17:39:28 ack bijan 17:39:35 s/Sandro/Jeremy/ 17:39:38 zakim, mute me 17:39:38 bijan should now be muted 17:39:50 Alan: Test case per wiki page 17:40:15 q+ 17:40:17 scribe note -- Jeremy said there is NOT a requirement that the WG only apporove "correct" test cases. 17:40:18 Alan: Bias to write as many test cases as possible in the functional syntax 17:40:31 q? 17:40:37 Alan: Cannot do a test case to check RDF mapping example 17:40:50 Bijan: In OWL 1.0, tests in some database 17:41:13 s/Bijan/Jeremy/ 17:41:18 +1 to all syntaxes 17:41:25 Bijan: Can generate all possible syntaxes for the test 17:41:26 This is very easy with the OWL API 17:41:33 s/Bijan/Jeremy/ 17:41:40 vipul, tha'ts jeremy, not me 17:41:42 EVERYTHING is totally programmable. :-) 17:41:48 zakim, ack me 17:41:48 unmuting bijan 17:41:49 Alan: Wiki is programmable 17:41:50 I see no one on the speaker queue 17:41:52 q? 17:41:52 +1 to all syntaxes as well, seems weird to focus on the FS if we are still tinkering with it 17:41:58 I aplologize, but I need to take a 3 minute break to attend to something. 17:42:24 q+ to mention problem with alternative syntaxes 17:42:28 +1 to multiple syntaxes 17:42:45 zakim, mute me 17:42:45 bijan should now be muted 17:42:49 q? 17:42:54 ack jeremy 17:42:54 Jeremy, you wanted to mention problem with alternative syntaxes 17:42:58 Jeremy: Flexibility => Tool has a bug => Bug in your test suite 17:43:24 Alan: Trust But Verify 17:43:24 Alan: Explicit tests that tool translation matches the correct answer 17:43:40 You have a core set of tests about the translation (Alan suggested this 17:43:54 zakim, who is talking? 17:43:56 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.10.31/TestCasesRequirements 17:43:59 q? 17:44:01 I'm back and I have bernardo on the speakerphone 17:44:05 sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (11%), Alan (11%), Jeremy (32%) 17:44:18 q? 17:44:37 zakim, who is talking? 17:44:48 ack sandro 17:44:50 sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Alan (62%), Jeremy (25%), MartinD (5%), Ivan (9%) 17:44:56 Btw, for the interested, i started work on an OWL 1.1 tutoiral a long time ago, and I found a swoop like tabbed interface that I adapted: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~bparsia/2007/owltutorial/ 17:44:56 (what about the RIF report???) 17:45:05 Might be fun for test cases 17:45:24 Or for examples 17:45:34 Alan: Dependency on another group on our charter - what are expectations and why does W3C do that? 17:45:45 Sandro: some interaction between the specs 17:45:59 Sandro: Implementor needs to understand both spects 17:46:12 I like the tabbed interface! 17:46:13 Sandro: Bad thing for two specs to contradict each other 17:46:24 Alan: Have people to be liasions 17:46:36 Alan: communicate any changes 17:46:48 We have different groups,s ome are producing specs (like RIF) and others which don't (e.g., HCLS, at least not specs that affect us) 17:46:59 q? 17:47:01 I'm on RIF and HCLS 17:47:07 Alan: Any volunteers for liastions 17:47:11 I am on SWEO 17:47:14 I could do RIF 17:47:17 sure 17:47:23 I'm active in SWD 17:47:27 I am also on SWCG:-) 17:47:39 What's SWD? 17:47:47 Ah! Good 17:48:00 I could do HCLS 17:48:03 Also, several of us are OWLED steering committee members 17:48:18 note: both HCLS and SWEO will be rechartered early 2008 17:48:28 q+ to mention Stuart/TAG 17:49:15 Are they really relevant? 17:49:19 URW is an incubator group 17:49:24 zakim, unmute me 17:49:25 bijan should no longer be muted 17:49:32 I think Anne Cregan is in the uncertainty thing 17:49:43 Rinke: yes, she is 17:49:56 Alan: Liasons with other groups - Bijan with RIF, Ivan with SWEO, Elisa with SWD, Vipul with HCLS 17:50:07 ...and I think Jeff is as well in the uncertainty one 17:50:09 Jeff Pan and others are members of Uncertainty XG 17:50:15 q? 17:50:24 q- 17:50:26 Alan: Liasons with XML Schema and Uncertainty XG to be decided 17:50:28 q+ 17:50:47 +1 on user defined datatypes by any name 17:50:55 +1 to Bijan 17:51:18 zakim, mute me 17:51:18 bijan should now be muted 17:51:21 q? 17:51:21 Bijan: XML Schema group did not give OWL WG defined datatypes by name 17:51:38 XML Schema Participants: * BEA Systems, Inc. (1 representative) * Boeing Company (1 representative) * Bologna, University of (3 representatives) * Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA) (5 representatives) * Ecole Mohammadia d'Ingenieurs Rabat (EMI) (1 representative) * Edinburgh (HCRC Language Technology Group) (1 representative) * IBM Corporation (2 representatives) * Mark Logic Corporation (1 representative) * National Association of Convenience Stores (NA 17:51:38 CS) (1 representative) * National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) (1 representative) * Oracle Corporation (2 representatives) * Sun Microsystems, Inc. (1 representative) 17:51:58 Alan: Connections to the OMG 17:52:09 note: mapping by Vipul refers to a possible XG on mapping between relational data in an RDB and RDF 17:52:21 Elisa: Evan and Elisa could do the coordination... Both of them co-chair the Ontology WG there 17:52:28 Elisa: Evan and I co-chair the ontology PSIG at OMG. 17:52:58 q? 17:53:07 ack vipul 17:53:21 Alan: Future meeting - Elisa and Evan could speak on similarities nd dependencies 17:53:26 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/bld/draft-2007-10-19.html 17:53:31 Topic: RIF Review 17:53:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0066.html 17:53:48 :-) 17:54:03 q? 17:54:28 +1 17:54:31 +1 17:54:36 zakim, unmute me 17:54:36 pfps should no longer be muted 17:54:50 Sandro: say +1 if you have read Peter's response.... 17:54:52 (some hp eyeballs looked at some version, but I haven't) 17:54:56 -bijan 17:55:08 q+ 17:55:27 +1 17:55:30 q+ 17:55:36 +??P1 17:55:41 q? 17:55:47 q+ to suggest a procedural approach .... 17:55:56 Sandro: Need some people to review... 17:56:41 bijan has joined #owl 17:56:48 Sandro: If it comes down to more substantive issues then it may make more sense to review them 17:56:53 q? 17:56:55 Sorry I've been out of contact 17:56:56 qck pfps 17:56:59 And want to chime in 17:57:02 ack pfps 17:57:09 zakim, unmute me 17:57:09 sorry, bijan, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 17:57:23 q? 17:57:27 qck vipul 17:57:31 ack vipul 17:57:41 which symbols do you mean, Vipul? 17:57:55 ^^ 17:57:57 ## 17:58:09 q? 17:58:23 MarkusK has joined #owl 17:58:28 q? 17:58:30 q+ 17:58:42 +1 17:58:48 Sandro: Disagrees with the Peter Re: consideration from RIF 17:59:06