16:56:39 RRSAgent has joined #forms-tf 16:56:39 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-irc 16:56:44 rrsagent, bookmark 16:56:44 See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-irc#T16-56-44 16:56:54 Zakim, this will be forms 16:56:56 zakim, this is JOINT_FORMS_TF 16:56:57 ok, anne; I see IA_(Forms TF)1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 16:56:59 sorry, oedipus, I do not see a conference named 'JOINT_FORMS_TF' in progress or scheduled at this time 16:57:09 zakim, i am Gregory_Rosmaita 16:57:09 sorry, oedipus, I do not see a party named 'Gregory_Rosmaita' 16:57:16 Zakim, who is here 16:57:16 anne, you need to end that query with '?' 16:57:19 Zakim, who is here? 16:57:20 IA_(Forms TF)1:00PM has not yet started, anne 16:57:21 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, hsivonen, Lachy_, hober, Lachy, Nick, oedipus, anne 16:57:29 rrsagent, this is JOINT_FORMS_TF 16:57:29 I'm logging. I don't understand 'this is JOINT_FORMS_TF', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:57:35 meeting: Joint Forms/HTML WG Forms Task Force Meeting 16:57:39 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 16:57:44 rrsagent, please track action items 16:57:49 Meeting: Joint Forms Task Force 16:57:58 agenda+ 2 minutes -- introductions and interests (hot button issues, too) 16:58:02 agenda+ discuss scoping (as prelude to next item) 16:58:05 agenda+ discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal 16:58:10 agenda+ clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency") 16:58:14 agenda+ charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when) 16:58:18 agenda+ deliverables and deadlines? 16:58:23 agenda+ identify agenda items for next meeting 16:58:28 agenda+ identify regular meeting time (every other week?) 16:59:01 scribenick: oedipus 16:59:32 zakim, agenda? 16:59:32 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda: 16:59:34 1. 2 minutes -- introductions and interests (hot button issues, too) [from oedipus] 16:59:37 2. discuss scoping (as prelude to next item) [from oedipus] 16:59:39 3. discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal [from oedipus] 16:59:43 4. clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency") [from oedipus] 16:59:45 5. charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when) [from oedipus] 16:59:47 6. deliverables and deadlines? [from oedipus] 16:59:48 7. identify agenda items for next meeting [from oedipus] 16:59:49 8. identify regular meeting time (every other week?) [from oedipus] 17:00:27 zakim, code? 17:00:27 the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Nick 17:00:39 markbirbeck has joined #forms-tf 17:01:15 IA_(Forms TF)1:00PM has now started 17:01:22 +Nick_van_den_Bleeken 17:01:32 zakim, who is here? 17:01:32 On the phone I see Nick_van_den_Bleeken 17:01:33 On IRC I see markbirbeck, RRSAgent, Zakim, hsivonen, Lachy_, hober, Lachy, Nick, oedipus, anne 17:01:39 Zakim, passcode? 17:01:39 the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne 17:01:42 +markbirbeck 17:01:50 +Gregory_Rosmaita 17:02:22 zakim, who is here? 17:02:22 On the phone I see Nick_van_den_Bleeken, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita 17:02:23 On IRC I see markbirbeck, RRSAgent, Zakim, hsivonen, Lachy_, hober, Lachy, Nick, oedipus, anne 17:02:37 +??P31 17:02:42 zakim, agenda? 17:02:42 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda: 17:02:44 1. 2 minutes -- introductions and interests (hot button issues, too) [from oedipus] 17:02:46 2. discuss scoping (as prelude to next item) [from oedipus] 17:02:49 3. discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal [from oedipus] 17:02:52 4. clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency") [from oedipus] 17:02:56 5. charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when) [from oedipus] 17:02:58 6. deliverables and deadlines? [from oedipus] 17:03:00 7. identify agenda items for next meeting [from oedipus] 17:03:00 Zakim, ??P31 is mr 17:03:02 8. identify regular meeting time (every other week?) [from oedipus] 17:03:04 +mr; got it 17:03:04 Zakim, ??P31 is me 17:03:06 I already had ??P31 as mr, anne 17:03:17 Zakim, screw you 17:03:17 I don't understand 'screw you', anne 17:03:26 i do, anne 17:03:29 Zakim, mr is me 17:03:29 +anne; got it 17:03:50 zakim, i am Gregory_Rosmaita 17:03:50 ok, oedipus, I now associate you with Gregory_Rosmaita 17:04:00 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita 17:04:08 ScribeNick: oedipus 17:04:37 Zakim, who is here? 17:04:49 On the phone I see Nick_van_den_Bleeken, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita, anne 17:04:55 On IRC I see markbirbeck, RRSAgent, Zakim, hsivonen, Lachy_, hober, Lachy, Nick, oedipus, anne 17:06:37 zakim, mute me 17:06:37 Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted 17:06:41 zakim, close 1 17:06:41 I don't understand 'close 1', oedipus 17:06:52 zakim, take up agendum 1 17:06:52 agendum 1. "2 minutes -- introductions and interests (hot button issues, too)" taken up [from oedipus] 17:06:58 zakim, close agendum 1 17:06:58 agendum 1, 2 minutes -- introductions and interests (hot button issues, too), closed 17:07:00 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:07:01 2. discuss scoping (as prelude to next item) [from oedipus] 17:07:12 zakim, take up agendum 2 17:07:12 agendum 2. "discuss scoping (as prelude to next item)" taken up [from oedipus] 17:08:12 Mark: what do people want out of task force? what would like acheived 17:10:09 Mark: personally, think neeed to find bridge between solutions (XForms and Web Forms 2.0) -- discussing in Forms WG ways of making transition easiest possible; keen to see if can meet in the middle -- some of the things Web Forms 2.0 extensions could they be part of what XForms is working on? if developer moving from HTML forms to HTML5 forms to XForms 2, would like to be a smoothe process 17:11:10 AVK: interested in hearing what kind of input XForms WG has on WF2 (Web Forms 2.0) 17:12:24 AVK: expressed outcomes in charter proposal; transition path between the two -- diffferences, mostly scripting; don't make too complex 17:13:02 GJR: i would like the task force to consider dave raggett's XForms Transitional draft 17:13:36 AVK: out of charter scope -- discussing technical spec; we are defining an architecture not a technical spec 17:14:20 Mark: not start with XForms Transitional -- conceptual ideas in conflict; dave's not around to support it 17:15:13 mark: think would be interesting to have proper discussion on XForms 2 extension; assess how this bridging might be achieved from WF2.0 to XForms 17:15:30 AVK: not sure XForms transitional compatible 17:16:47 Mark: background: number of things in XForms that are syntaxically unecessary; if don't express instance of XML data, get data created for you; could not require expression of model -- not a new language, but how do we tune XForms so retains its conceptual model, but easier to use syntaxically and could be used by relative novice 17:18:09 Mark: need to work out: if have input control bound to firstname and another to secondname -- want to concatonate in XForms XPath concatonation -- how to bridge the 2? not by making them look the same -- different languages in model -- javascript in HTML and XPath in XForms; 2 ways of achieving -- how to get from one to the other 17:19:36 ack me 17:19:43 Mark: meta-information will help guide us to ascertain where we are coming from; not religious about this -- javascript so commoonly used to make widgets, don't need to create an XPath -- 2 ways of doing things 17:20:01 Nick: nothing against javascript or XPath -- if it is the best solution, should be able to use it 17:20:22 s/don't need to create/don't always need to create/ 17:20:56 AVK: script mark HTTP-Header and meta elements -- don't know if supported in gecko 17:21:13 Mark: don't know how widely supported; would require us to say XPath is a scripting language 17:21:41 Mark: type of issue we need to step through to achieve goal 17:22:12 Mark: many good candidates for attributes; support for multiple languages in browser 17:22:47 AVK: single platform easy to add a lot of features -- if 4 platforms need to support different methods, it will be a waste 17:23:19 Mark: certain attributes contain script can be used as way to take javascript from WF2 and XPath from XForms 17:23:47 zakim, close agendum 2 17:23:47 agendum 2, discuss scoping (as prelude to next item), closed 17:23:48 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:23:50 3. discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal [from oedipus] 17:24:11 zakim, take up agendum 3 17:24:11 agendum 3. "discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal" taken up [from oedipus] 17:24:22 AVK: should be concentrating on guidelines 17:25:40 Mark: trying to ensure that no particular architecture is ruled out by what we do -- if just have input control or 2 inputs and a concatonated output, nothing requires MVC architecture; don't want to rule one way or another -- implement as implementor chooses -- if someone introduces attribute, will not break 17:25:55 AVK: mapping simple HTML forms DOM structure to XForms 17:26:38 Mark: no need for conversion -- 17:27:16 AVK: define mapping between WF2 and XForms -- WF2 makes additional parts of forms easier to use -- doesn't add much as far as a model or output -- 17:29:30 Mark: in XForms model, if say XML node called date, anywhere put input control associated with date, can obtain it; some argue shouldn't put data on input control; don't think breaks MVC model; XForms needs ability to set view level properties -- one control read-only one not read-only -- if set forms control, all will be read-only; need way to distinguish which are which -- build on HTML4 and WF2 rather than be in conflict with them 17:30:12 Mark: doesn't matter that don't shave MVC model -- can conceptually act as if there is one -- there is a model, can't see -- WF2 applies to "view level" XForms attributes apply to model 17:30:44 AVK: seems like a model constraint; datatypes allow you to do that 17:31:16 Mark: constraints are connected to model; WF2 if have 2 controls connected to same data can have separate types, right? 17:31:20 AVK: not sure 17:31:31 Mark: is it like HTML control array? 17:31:38 AVK: yes, built on top of HTML 17:32:28 Mark: read-only -- to get in XForms have to say some data is read-only, input control bound to that becomes read-only; programmers start with UI, add more controls and data, shouldn't rule out use of MVC 17:33:16 AVK: guidelines - conversion from HTML to XForms model -- not about WF2 (supplemental to HTML forms) -- how do HTML forms used everywhere map to XForms 17:33:26 Mark: believe you can map them 17:33:36 AVK: not saying can't but that is the challange 17:33:59 Mark: HTML forms pretty easy; people get worked up over WF2 and XForms are similarities 17:34:27 AVK: read-only and disabled are also part of HTML forms -- not new; WF2 allows read-only on slightly more controls and disable on select -- not new feature 17:34:59 Mark: want to begin with new features even if only half-a-feature; harmonize work being done; if simply harmonize with HTML miss out on what is being done in other areas 17:35:43 zakim, close agendum 3 17:35:43 agendum 3, discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal, closed 17:35:46 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:35:49 4. clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency") [from oedipus] 17:36:56 GJR: from SS post to public-forms-tf -- agree on architectural consistency but must define 17:37:20 AVK: for some may be clear mapping between XForms and WF2 or single interface -- not sure 17:37:30 Mark: conceptually, see them based on same model 17:39:00 mjs has joined #forms-tf 17:39:07 Mark: if is model underneath HTML form, could still be described by MVC -- data entered into form, processed, serialized and delivered; HTML onSubmit queries all controls and submits that; could collect in a model, even if not explicit; allows further extension of forms 17:39:12 my apologies gentlemen, had a traffic disaster 17:39:20 can someone remind me of the call-in number? 17:39:20 hope you are ok 17:39:29 Zakim Bridge +1.617.761.6200, passcode 36767# ("FORMS#") 17:39:30 zakim, code? 17:39:30 the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Nick 17:40:31 zakim, close this agendum 17:40:31 I do not know what agendum had been taken up, oedipus 17:40:40 zakim, close agendum 4 17:40:40 agendum 4, clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency"), closed 17:40:42 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:40:43 5. charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when) [from oedipus] 17:40:57 not an accident, just bad traffic on the way to work 17:41:07 TOPIC: charter review period 17:41:20 + +1.408.996.aaaa 17:41:40 Zakim, aaaa is mjs 17:41:40 +mjs; got it 17:41:41 zakim, +1.408.996.aaaa is Maciej 17:41:41 sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+1.408.996.aaaa' 17:42:42 MJS: personal view: as stands, architectural consistency is vague, but is work of TF in executing charter to find what it means; different possible interpretations need to be investigated and which make sense for what 17:43:03 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:43:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html anne 17:43:22 zakim, close agendum 4 17:43:22 agendum 4, clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency"), closed 17:43:24 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:43:26 5. charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when) [from oedipus] 17:43:30 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:43:38 zakim, close agendum 5 17:43:38 agendum 5, charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when), closed 17:43:40 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:43:41 6. deliverables and deadlines? [from oedipus] 17:44:15 zakim, move to next agendum 8 17:44:15 I don't understand 'move to next agendum 8', oedipus 17:44:22 zakim, take up agendum 8 17:44:22 agendum 8. "identify regular meeting time (every other week?)" taken up [from oedipus] 17:45:07 AVK: can do by email: charter review period 2 weeks from now -- 3 weeks publish as official after taking to groups 17:45:48 RESOLVED: internal charter review period will end 3 weeks from today, after which will be submitted to respective WGs 17:46:46 AVK: produce some guidelines -- 23 november 2007 deadline -- ok? 17:47:17 MJS: occasional meetings good -- only as needed 17:48:01 -markbirbeck 17:48:08 GJR: when meet impasse or can't achieve consensus on list then can call teleconference to discuss 17:48:20 scribe's note: general agreement 17:49:03 rrsagent, create minutes 17:49:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 17:49:12 rrsagent, format minutes 17:49:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 17:49:23 -Nick_van_den_Bleeken 17:49:26 -mjs 17:49:28 -Gregory_Rosmaita 17:50:21 rrsagent, publish minutes 17:50:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 17:51:31 chair+ none 17:52:34 attendees+ Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Mark_Birbeck, Anne_Van_Kestren, Gregory_J_Rosmaita, Maciej_Stachowiak 17:52:38 rrsagent, create minutes 17:52:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 17:52:43 rrsagent, publish minutes 17:52:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 17:53:12 attendees: Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Mark_Birbeck, Anne_Van_Kestren, Gregory_J_Rosmaita, Maciej_Stachowiak 17:53:16 rrsagent, publish minutes 17:53:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 17:54:56 zakim, list attendees 17:54:57 As of this point the attendees have been Nick_van_den_Bleeken, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita, anne, +1.408.996.aaaa, mjs 17:55:42 zakim, list participants 17:55:42 As of this point the attendees have been Nick_van_den_Bleeken, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita, anne, +1.408.996.aaaa, mjs 17:56:22 -anne 17:56:23 IA_(Forms TF)1:00PM has ended 17:56:24 Attendees were Nick_van_den_Bleeken, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita, anne, +1.408.996.aaaa, mjs 17:56:40 zakim, list participants 17:56:40 sorry, oedipus, I don't know what conference this is 17:57:05 rrsagent, create minutes 17:57:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 17:58:32 rrsagent, publish minutes 17:58:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 17:59:32 on the call i heard you, me, nick, mark, and maciej -- sebastian wasn't there 18:00:15 what was mjs? 18:00:24 oh, the .aaaa number? 18:00:27 I think that was me 18:00:27 yeah 18:00:30 mjs: did you call from 408? 18:00:33 I don't know why it listed me twice 18:00:39 Apple is in the US 408 area code 18:00:52 perhaps that means that you're excused from our next telecon? 18:01:24 attendees- +1.408.996.aaa 18:01:29 rrsagent, create minutes 18:01:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 18:01:33 rrsagent, publish minutes 18:01:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 18:02:03 chair+ none 18:02:07 rrsagent, create minutes 18:02:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 18:02:09 rrsagent, publish minutes 18:02:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 18:06:28 chair: none 18:06:31 rrsagent, create minutes 18:06:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 18:06:33 rrsagent, publish minutes 18:06:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus 18:48:56 RRSAgent, bye 18:48:56 I see no action items