IRC log of forms-tf on 2007-10-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:56:39 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #forms-tf
16:56:39 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-irc
16:56:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, bookmark
16:56:44 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-irc#T16-56-44
16:56:54 [anne]
Zakim, this will be forms
16:56:56 [oedipus]
zakim, this is JOINT_FORMS_TF
16:56:57 [Zakim]
ok, anne; I see IA_(Forms TF)1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
16:56:59 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not see a conference named 'JOINT_FORMS_TF' in progress or scheduled at this time
16:57:09 [oedipus]
zakim, i am Gregory_Rosmaita
16:57:09 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not see a party named 'Gregory_Rosmaita'
16:57:16 [anne]
Zakim, who is here
16:57:16 [Zakim]
anne, you need to end that query with '?'
16:57:19 [anne]
Zakim, who is here?
16:57:20 [Zakim]
IA_(Forms TF)1:00PM has not yet started, anne
16:57:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, hsivonen, Lachy_, hober, Lachy, Nick, oedipus, anne
16:57:29 [oedipus]
rrsagent, this is JOINT_FORMS_TF
16:57:29 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'this is JOINT_FORMS_TF', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:57:35 [oedipus]
meeting: Joint Forms/HTML WG Forms Task Force Meeting
16:57:39 [oedipus]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:57:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please track action items
16:57:49 [oedipus]
Meeting: Joint Forms Task Force
16:57:58 [oedipus]
agenda+ 2 minutes -- introductions and interests (hot button issues, too)
16:58:02 [oedipus]
agenda+ discuss scoping (as prelude to next item)
16:58:05 [oedipus]
agenda+ discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal
16:58:10 [oedipus]
agenda+ clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency")
16:58:14 [oedipus]
agenda+ charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when)
16:58:18 [oedipus]
agenda+ deliverables and deadlines?
16:58:23 [oedipus]
agenda+ identify agenda items for next meeting
16:58:28 [oedipus]
agenda+ identify regular meeting time (every other week?)
16:59:01 [oedipus]
scribenick: oedipus
16:59:32 [oedipus]
zakim, agenda?
16:59:32 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
16:59:34 [Zakim]
1. 2 minutes -- introductions and interests (hot button issues, too) [from oedipus]
16:59:37 [Zakim]
2. discuss scoping (as prelude to next item) [from oedipus]
16:59:39 [Zakim]
3. discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal [from oedipus]
16:59:43 [Zakim]
4. clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency") [from oedipus]
16:59:45 [Zakim]
5. charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when) [from oedipus]
16:59:47 [Zakim]
6. deliverables and deadlines? [from oedipus]
16:59:48 [Zakim]
7. identify agenda items for next meeting [from oedipus]
16:59:49 [Zakim]
8. identify regular meeting time (every other week?) [from oedipus]
17:00:27 [Nick]
zakim, code?
17:00:27 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Nick
17:00:39 [markbirbeck]
markbirbeck has joined #forms-tf
17:01:15 [Zakim]
IA_(Forms TF)1:00PM has now started
17:01:22 [Zakim]
+Nick_van_den_Bleeken
17:01:32 [Nick]
zakim, who is here?
17:01:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Nick_van_den_Bleeken
17:01:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see markbirbeck, RRSAgent, Zakim, hsivonen, Lachy_, hober, Lachy, Nick, oedipus, anne
17:01:39 [anne]
Zakim, passcode?
17:01:39 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
17:01:42 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck
17:01:50 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
17:02:22 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
17:02:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Nick_van_den_Bleeken, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita
17:02:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see markbirbeck, RRSAgent, Zakim, hsivonen, Lachy_, hober, Lachy, Nick, oedipus, anne
17:02:37 [Zakim]
+??P31
17:02:42 [oedipus]
zakim, agenda?
17:02:42 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
17:02:44 [Zakim]
1. 2 minutes -- introductions and interests (hot button issues, too) [from oedipus]
17:02:46 [Zakim]
2. discuss scoping (as prelude to next item) [from oedipus]
17:02:49 [Zakim]
3. discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal [from oedipus]
17:02:52 [Zakim]
4. clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency") [from oedipus]
17:02:56 [Zakim]
5. charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when) [from oedipus]
17:02:58 [Zakim]
6. deliverables and deadlines? [from oedipus]
17:03:00 [Zakim]
7. identify agenda items for next meeting [from oedipus]
17:03:00 [anne]
Zakim, ??P31 is mr
17:03:02 [Zakim]
8. identify regular meeting time (every other week?) [from oedipus]
17:03:04 [Zakim]
+mr; got it
17:03:04 [anne]
Zakim, ??P31 is me
17:03:06 [Zakim]
I already had ??P31 as mr, anne
17:03:17 [anne]
Zakim, screw you
17:03:17 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'screw you', anne
17:03:26 [oedipus]
i do, anne
17:03:29 [anne]
Zakim, mr is me
17:03:29 [Zakim]
+anne; got it
17:03:50 [oedipus]
zakim, i am Gregory_Rosmaita
17:03:50 [Zakim]
ok, oedipus, I now associate you with Gregory_Rosmaita
17:04:00 [oedipus]
scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
17:04:08 [oedipus]
ScribeNick: oedipus
17:04:37 [anne]
Zakim, who is here?
17:04:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Nick_van_den_Bleeken, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita, anne
17:04:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see markbirbeck, RRSAgent, Zakim, hsivonen, Lachy_, hober, Lachy, Nick, oedipus, anne
17:06:37 [Nick]
zakim, mute me
17:06:37 [Zakim]
Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
17:06:41 [oedipus]
zakim, close 1
17:06:41 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close 1', oedipus
17:06:52 [oedipus]
zakim, take up agendum 1
17:06:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "2 minutes -- introductions and interests (hot button issues, too)" taken up [from oedipus]
17:06:58 [oedipus]
zakim, close agendum 1
17:06:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1, 2 minutes -- introductions and interests (hot button issues, too), closed
17:07:00 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:07:01 [Zakim]
2. discuss scoping (as prelude to next item) [from oedipus]
17:07:12 [oedipus]
zakim, take up agendum 2
17:07:12 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "discuss scoping (as prelude to next item)" taken up [from oedipus]
17:08:12 [oedipus]
Mark: what do people want out of task force? what would like acheived
17:10:09 [oedipus]
Mark: personally, think neeed to find bridge between solutions (XForms and Web Forms 2.0) -- discussing in Forms WG ways of making transition easiest possible; keen to see if can meet in the middle -- some of the things Web Forms 2.0 extensions could they be part of what XForms is working on? if developer moving from HTML forms to HTML5 forms to XForms 2, would like to be a smoothe process
17:11:10 [oedipus]
AVK: interested in hearing what kind of input XForms WG has on WF2 (Web Forms 2.0)
17:12:24 [oedipus]
AVK: expressed outcomes in charter proposal; transition path between the two -- diffferences, mostly scripting; don't make too complex
17:13:02 [oedipus]
GJR: i would like the task force to consider dave raggett's XForms Transitional draft
17:13:36 [oedipus]
AVK: out of charter scope -- discussing technical spec; we are defining an architecture not a technical spec
17:14:20 [oedipus]
Mark: not start with XForms Transitional -- conceptual ideas in conflict; dave's not around to support it
17:15:13 [oedipus]
mark: think would be interesting to have proper discussion on XForms 2 extension; assess how this bridging might be achieved from WF2.0 to XForms
17:15:30 [oedipus]
AVK: not sure XForms transitional compatible
17:16:47 [oedipus]
Mark: background: number of things in XForms that are syntaxically unecessary; if don't express instance of XML data, get data created for you; could not require expression of model -- not a new language, but how do we tune XForms so retains its conceptual model, but easier to use syntaxically and could be used by relative novice
17:18:09 [oedipus]
Mark: need to work out: if have input control bound to firstname and another to secondname -- want to concatonate in XForms XPath concatonation -- how to bridge the 2? not by making them look the same -- different languages in model -- javascript in HTML and XPath in XForms; 2 ways of achieving -- how to get from one to the other
17:19:36 [Nick]
ack me
17:19:43 [oedipus]
Mark: meta-information will help guide us to ascertain where we are coming from; not religious about this -- javascript so commoonly used to make widgets, don't need to create an XPath -- 2 ways of doing things
17:20:01 [oedipus]
Nick: nothing against javascript or XPath -- if it is the best solution, should be able to use it
17:20:22 [markbirbeck]
s/don't need to create/don't always need to create/
17:20:56 [oedipus]
AVK: script mark HTTP-Header and meta elements -- don't know if supported in gecko
17:21:13 [oedipus]
Mark: don't know how widely supported; would require us to say XPath is a scripting language
17:21:41 [oedipus]
Mark: type of issue we need to step through to achieve goal
17:22:12 [oedipus]
Mark: many good candidates for attributes; support for multiple languages in browser
17:22:47 [oedipus]
AVK: single platform easy to add a lot of features -- if 4 platforms need to support different methods, it will be a waste
17:23:19 [oedipus]
Mark: certain attributes contain script can be used as way to take javascript from WF2 and XPath from XForms
17:23:47 [oedipus]
zakim, close agendum 2
17:23:47 [Zakim]
agendum 2, discuss scoping (as prelude to next item), closed
17:23:48 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:23:50 [Zakim]
3. discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal [from oedipus]
17:24:11 [oedipus]
zakim, take up agendum 3
17:24:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal" taken up [from oedipus]
17:24:22 [oedipus]
AVK: should be concentrating on guidelines
17:25:40 [oedipus]
Mark: trying to ensure that no particular architecture is ruled out by what we do -- if just have input control or 2 inputs and a concatonated output, nothing requires MVC architecture; don't want to rule one way or another -- implement as implementor chooses -- if someone introduces attribute, will not break
17:25:55 [oedipus]
AVK: mapping simple HTML forms DOM structure to XForms
17:26:38 [oedipus]
Mark: no need for conversion --
17:27:16 [oedipus]
AVK: define mapping between WF2 and XForms -- WF2 makes additional parts of forms easier to use -- doesn't add much as far as a model or output --
17:29:30 [oedipus]
Mark: in XForms model, if say XML node called date, anywhere put input control associated with date, can obtain it; some argue shouldn't put data on input control; don't think breaks MVC model; XForms needs ability to set view level properties -- one control read-only one not read-only -- if set forms control, all will be read-only; need way to distinguish which are which -- build on HTML4 and WF2 rather than be in conflict with them
17:30:12 [oedipus]
Mark: doesn't matter that don't shave MVC model -- can conceptually act as if there is one -- there is a model, can't see -- WF2 applies to "view level" XForms attributes apply to model
17:30:44 [oedipus]
AVK: seems like a model constraint; datatypes allow you to do that
17:31:16 [oedipus]
Mark: constraints are connected to model; WF2 if have 2 controls connected to same data can have separate types, right?
17:31:20 [oedipus]
AVK: not sure
17:31:31 [oedipus]
Mark: is it like HTML control array?
17:31:38 [oedipus]
AVK: yes, built on top of HTML
17:32:28 [oedipus]
Mark: read-only -- to get in XForms have to say some data is read-only, input control bound to that becomes read-only; programmers start with UI, add more controls and data, shouldn't rule out use of MVC
17:33:16 [oedipus]
AVK: guidelines - conversion from HTML to XForms model -- not about WF2 (supplemental to HTML forms) -- how do HTML forms used everywhere map to XForms
17:33:26 [oedipus]
Mark: believe you can map them
17:33:36 [oedipus]
AVK: not saying can't but that is the challange
17:33:59 [oedipus]
Mark: HTML forms pretty easy; people get worked up over WF2 and XForms are similarities
17:34:27 [oedipus]
AVK: read-only and disabled are also part of HTML forms -- not new; WF2 allows read-only on slightly more controls and disable on select -- not new feature
17:34:59 [oedipus]
Mark: want to begin with new features even if only half-a-feature; harmonize work being done; if simply harmonize with HTML miss out on what is being done in other areas
17:35:43 [oedipus]
zakim, close agendum 3
17:35:43 [Zakim]
agendum 3, discuss AVK's charter proposal (latest draft): http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal, closed
17:35:46 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:35:49 [Zakim]
4. clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency") [from oedipus]
17:36:56 [oedipus]
GJR: from SS post to public-forms-tf -- agree on architectural consistency but must define
17:37:20 [oedipus]
AVK: for some may be clear mapping between XForms and WF2 or single interface -- not sure
17:37:30 [oedipus]
Mark: conceptually, see them based on same model
17:39:00 [mjs]
mjs has joined #forms-tf
17:39:07 [oedipus]
Mark: if is model underneath HTML form, could still be described by MVC -- data entered into form, processed, serialized and delivered; HTML onSubmit queries all controls and submits that; could collect in a model, even if not explicit; allows further extension of forms
17:39:12 [mjs]
my apologies gentlemen, had a traffic disaster
17:39:20 [mjs]
can someone remind me of the call-in number?
17:39:20 [oedipus]
hope you are ok
17:39:29 [oedipus]
Zakim Bridge +1.617.761.6200, passcode 36767# ("FORMS#")
17:39:30 [Nick]
zakim, code?
17:39:30 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Nick
17:40:31 [oedipus]
zakim, close this agendum
17:40:31 [Zakim]
I do not know what agendum had been taken up, oedipus
17:40:40 [oedipus]
zakim, close agendum 4
17:40:40 [Zakim]
agendum 4, clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency"), closed
17:40:42 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:40:43 [Zakim]
5. charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when) [from oedipus]
17:40:57 [mjs]
not an accident, just bad traffic on the way to work
17:41:07 [oedipus]
TOPIC: charter review period
17:41:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.996.aaaa
17:41:40 [anne]
Zakim, aaaa is mjs
17:41:40 [Zakim]
+mjs; got it
17:41:41 [oedipus]
zakim, +1.408.996.aaaa is Maciej
17:41:41 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+1.408.996.aaaa'
17:42:42 [oedipus]
MJS: personal view: as stands, architectural consistency is vague, but is work of TF in executing charter to find what it means; different possible interpretations need to be investigated and which make sense for what
17:43:03 [anne]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:43:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html anne
17:43:22 [oedipus]
zakim, close agendum 4
17:43:22 [Zakim]
agendum 4, clarification of terms (for example, "architectural consistency"), closed
17:43:24 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:43:26 [Zakim]
5. charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when) [from oedipus]
17:43:30 [anne]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:43:38 [oedipus]
zakim, close agendum 5
17:43:38 [Zakim]
agendum 5, charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when), closed
17:43:40 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:43:41 [Zakim]
6. deliverables and deadlines? [from oedipus]
17:44:15 [oedipus]
zakim, move to next agendum 8
17:44:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'move to next agendum 8', oedipus
17:44:22 [oedipus]
zakim, take up agendum 8
17:44:22 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "identify regular meeting time (every other week?)" taken up [from oedipus]
17:45:07 [oedipus]
AVK: can do by email: charter review period 2 weeks from now -- 3 weeks publish as official after taking to groups
17:45:48 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: internal charter review period will end 3 weeks from today, after which will be submitted to respective WGs
17:46:46 [oedipus]
AVK: produce some guidelines -- 23 november 2007 deadline -- ok?
17:47:17 [oedipus]
MJS: occasional meetings good -- only as needed
17:48:01 [Zakim]
-markbirbeck
17:48:08 [oedipus]
GJR: when meet impasse or can't achieve consensus on list then can call teleconference to discuss
17:48:20 [oedipus]
scribe's note: general agreement
17:49:03 [oedipus]
rrsagent, create minutes
17:49:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
17:49:12 [oedipus]
rrsagent, format minutes
17:49:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
17:49:23 [Zakim]
-Nick_van_den_Bleeken
17:49:26 [Zakim]
-mjs
17:49:28 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
17:50:21 [oedipus]
rrsagent, publish minutes
17:50:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
17:51:31 [oedipus]
chair+ none
17:52:34 [oedipus]
attendees+ Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Mark_Birbeck, Anne_Van_Kestren, Gregory_J_Rosmaita, Maciej_Stachowiak
17:52:38 [oedipus]
rrsagent, create minutes
17:52:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
17:52:43 [oedipus]
rrsagent, publish minutes
17:52:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
17:53:12 [oedipus]
attendees: Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Mark_Birbeck, Anne_Van_Kestren, Gregory_J_Rosmaita, Maciej_Stachowiak
17:53:16 [oedipus]
rrsagent, publish minutes
17:53:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
17:54:56 [oedipus]
zakim, list attendees
17:54:57 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Nick_van_den_Bleeken, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita, anne, +1.408.996.aaaa, mjs
17:55:42 [oedipus]
zakim, list participants
17:55:42 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Nick_van_den_Bleeken, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita, anne, +1.408.996.aaaa, mjs
17:56:22 [Zakim]
-anne
17:56:23 [Zakim]
IA_(Forms TF)1:00PM has ended
17:56:24 [Zakim]
Attendees were Nick_van_den_Bleeken, markbirbeck, Gregory_Rosmaita, anne, +1.408.996.aaaa, mjs
17:56:40 [oedipus]
zakim, list participants
17:56:40 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I don't know what conference this is
17:57:05 [oedipus]
rrsagent, create minutes
17:57:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
17:58:32 [oedipus]
rrsagent, publish minutes
17:58:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
17:59:32 [oedipus]
on the call i heard you, me, nick, mark, and maciej -- sebastian wasn't there
18:00:15 [mjs]
what was mjs?
18:00:24 [mjs]
oh, the .aaaa number?
18:00:27 [mjs]
I think that was me
18:00:27 [anne]
yeah
18:00:30 [oedipus]
mjs: did you call from 408?
18:00:33 [mjs]
I don't know why it listed me twice
18:00:39 [mjs]
Apple is in the US 408 area code
18:00:52 [oedipus]
perhaps that means that you're excused from our next telecon?
18:01:24 [oedipus]
attendees- +1.408.996.aaa
18:01:29 [oedipus]
rrsagent, create minutes
18:01:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
18:01:33 [oedipus]
rrsagent, publish minutes
18:01:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
18:02:03 [oedipus]
chair+ none
18:02:07 [oedipus]
rrsagent, create minutes
18:02:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
18:02:09 [oedipus]
rrsagent, publish minutes
18:02:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
18:06:28 [oedipus]
chair: none
18:06:31 [oedipus]
rrsagent, create minutes
18:06:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
18:06:33 [oedipus]
rrsagent, publish minutes
18:06:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf-minutes.html oedipus
18:48:56 [anne]
RRSAgent, bye
18:48:56 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items