12:59:25 RRSAgent has joined #aria 12:59:25 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-aria-irc 13:00:12 oedipus has joined #aria 13:00:16 Zakim has joined #aria 13:00:21 Zakim, this is ARIA 13:00:21 sorry, anne, I do not see a conference named 'ARIA' in progress or scheduled at this time 13:00:27 Zakim, this will be PFWG 13:00:27 ok, anne, I see WAI_PFWG()9:00AM already started 13:00:29 Steven has joined #aria 13:00:36 meeting: Joint Meeting (HTML, XHTML 2, SVG, WAI PF) ARIA states and properties 13:00:42 Zakim, who is here? 13:00:42 On the phone I see ??P2, ??P8, Gregory_Rosmaita, Aaron_Leventhal 13:00:43 zakim, who is here? 13:00:44 On IRC I see Steven, Zakim, oedipus, RRSAgent, Rich, anne, hsivonen 13:00:46 On the phone I see ??P2, ??P8, Gregory_Rosmaita, Aaron_Leventhal 13:00:47 On IRC I see Steven, Zakim, oedipus, RRSAgent, Rich, anne, hsivonen 13:00:49 +Doug_Schepers 13:00:57 scribe: oedipus 13:00:58 zakim, dial steven-617 13:00:58 ok, Steven; the call is being made 13:00:59 +Steven 13:01:06 chair: Rich 13:01:11 Zakim, passcode? 13:01:11 the conference code is 7394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne 13:01:35 aaronlev has joined #aria 13:01:36 shepazu has joined #aria 13:01:48 hmm. How do I tell whether I'm ??P2 or ??P8? 13:02:16 zakim, mute ??p2 13:02:16 ??P2 should now be muted 13:02:18 + +1.313.069.aaaa 13:02:25 Zakim, aaaa is me 13:02:25 +anne; got it 13:02:33 zakim, unmute ??p2 13:02:33 ??P2 should no longer be muted 13:02:47 Zakim, ??P8 is me 13:02:47 +hsivonen; got it 13:03:02 zakim, who is here? 13:03:02 On the phone I see ??P2, hsivonen, Gregory_Rosmaita, Aaron_Leventhal, Doug_Schepers, Steven, anne 13:03:05 On IRC I see shepazu, aaronlev, Steven, Zakim, oedipus, RRSAgent, Rich, anne, hsivonen 13:03:29 zakim, ??P2 is Rich 13:03:29 +Rich; got it 13:03:49 + +1.206.528.aabb - is perhaps ChrisWilson 13:03:59 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2007OctDec/0108.html 13:04:03 zakim, mute me 13:04:04 sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 13:04:10 zakim, mute oedipus 13:04:10 sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to oedipus 13:04:29 zakime, i am Gregory_Rosmaita 13:04:38 zakim, i am Gregory_Rosmaita 13:04:38 ok, oedipus, I now associate you with Gregory_Rosmaita 13:04:38 zakim, code? 13:04:39 the conference code is 7394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven 13:04:52 zakim, mute me 13:04:52 Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted 13:04:54 markbirbeck has joined #aria 13:05:19 ChrisWilson has joined #aria 13:05:52 + +020876aacc 13:05:57 anthony has joined #aria 13:06:03 zakim, i am aacc 13:06:03 +markbirbeck; got it 13:06:14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2007OctDec/0108.html 13:06:49 +??P16 13:07:26 Zakim, ?P16 is Anthony 13:07:27 zakim, P16 is me 13:07:29 sorry, Rich, I do not recognize a party named '?P16' 13:07:34 sorry, anthony, I do not recognize a party named 'P16' 13:07:51 Zakim, 16 is anthony 13:07:51 sorry, anne, I do not recognize a party named '16' 13:07:54 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2007OctDec/0108.html 13:07:57 Zakim: 13:08:00 zakim, ??P16 is me 13:08:00 +anthony; got it 13:08:22 RS: how to support aria states and properties among different markup languages; linked agenda announcement contains background 13:08:45 RS: currently ARIA spec uses namespaces for aria properties -- problem porting back and forth from HTML to XHTML/XML 13:09:19 q+ to discuss colon 13:09:45 RS: HTML WG contingent proposed aria- workaround; colon prevents style application in IE -- triggers visual UI off of properties -- if could leverage, CSS attribute selectors, would be far less javascripting 13:10:02 RS: XHTML 1.x DOM processing must be the same as text/html 13:11:08 RS: not considered sensible to alter the processing of the DOM depending on the mime type so namespace colon not thte solution; SVG also wants to use ARIA; 13:11:15 RS: requirements - content that works in older and newer UAs -- want consistent usage in XHTML namespace no matter what the mime type; not place unecessary burden on authors or developers 13:11:37 RS: how do we deal with cross-cutting technologies -- current proposal on table -- feedback? 13:11:43 q? 13:11:51 ack Stevn 13:11:54 ack Steven 13:11:54 Steven, you wanted to discuss colon 13:12:28 q+ to ask about role 13:12:54 q+ to talk about colon in text/html 13:12:58 xml:lang doesn't work in text/html 13:13:03 Steven: yet to be convinced about unsuitability for colon; deliberately chosen in NS spec as allowable; should work same in HTML and XHTML (lang/xml:lang) -- problem of CSS in IE not a design feature, it is a bug in one version; doesn't apply to IE6 (no support for selectors); future IE versions should be able to handle colon; 13:13:10 q? 13:13:15 ack ChrisWilson 13:13:15 ChrisWilson, you wanted to ask about role 13:13:24 Steve: shouldn't base decision on bugs in legacy technology 13:14:07 Chris: role not being discussed -- marc silbey told me XHTML WG using role for things other than ARIA; root of concern about namespacing; want to work consistently across languages 13:14:10 q+ 13:14:25 RS: role is used not just for accessibility in XHTML; cross-cutting technology 13:14:29 q? 13:14:37 Steve: use is same; how ARIA keys off it is ARIA specific 13:14:48 CW: values of role can be different in XHTML than other MLs 13:15:06 Steve: role attribute takes value, those values interpreted in accordance with host language 13:15:18 CW: matter of interpretation, or does it take diff values in XHTML 13:15:20 q? 13:15:51 Steve: role attribute from XHTML WG; WAI using XHTML Role to define elements with ARIA properties -- other attributes on elements then come into play 13:15:58 q- 13:15:59 RS: currently, it is a CURIE 13:16:26 RS: intended to be cross cutting and extensible; for accessibility using wairole namespace and landmarks as roles to support ARIA 13:16:35 ack hsivonen 13:16:35 hsivonen, you wanted to talk about colon in text/html 13:16:39 q? 13:17:17 q? 13:17:35 q+ 13:17:59 q+ 13:18:08 ack markbirbeck 13:18:10 HS: response to steven - text/html browsers (top 4: IE, Gecko, Webkit, Opera) none of them put xml:lang in a place where a namespace capable UA can handle it; local name becomes namespace in terms of DOM; not just about one version of IE having a bug, but whole text/html being unaware of XHTML namespace; HTML and XML parsers act differently; colon not an XML delimiter in text/html 13:18:24 q? 13:18:58 q+ 13:19:19 q+ 13:19:20 q+ to say it creates a scripting discrepancy between text/html and application/xhtml+xml 13:19:37 q- as hsivonen will say it :) 13:19:41 q- 13:19:43 ack Steven 13:19:49 MB: technical issue with colon: if use character and process literally (aria-somethingKnown) might as well use colon: valid character in HTML and XHTML/XML; just because isn't processed in HTML, doesn't mean can't be used as a delimiter; how to approach more general problem of integrating these technologies and how they are applied to HTML and XHTML; 13:20:06 ack shepazu 13:20:34 -markbirbeck 13:20:35 q+ 13:21:02 +markbirbeck 13:21:31 DougS: understand not wanting to code to a specific flaw in specific browser, but no telling when flaw going to be fixed; is already content out there that could benefit from ARIA; colon doesn't work with CSS Selectors in IE7, but can with other attribute name schemae; don't see colon as possibility from practical point of view; would like it, but afraid not realistic; still not convinced that dash is right way to go -- would like some justification for namespa 13:21:36 ack hsivonen 13:21:36 hsivonen, you wanted to say it creates a scripting discrepancy between text/html and application/xhtml+xml 13:21:41 q? 13:21:43 q+ 13:22:47 HS: mark said colon gets into DOM -- if colon there, DOM looks different from DOM parsed from text/html from DOM parse of apprilication/xhtml+xml; colon not useable -- if isn't prefix ariadisabled would collide with HTML5 native disabled 13:22:47 ack Steven 13:22:55 DougS: no one arguing that 13:23:26 shepazu, sorry I misunderstood your point then 13:23:35 q? 13:24:14 q+ Rich 13:24:32 ack markbirbeck 13:24:32 Steven: 2 of Doug's points: 1) bug only relates to CSS as i understand it, CSS aspect of IE7 not essential for functioning of ARIA, so when bug fixed would still work; namespaces not limited to stakeholders present here -- SMIL would be natural place to extend via namespacing; either we throw away namespacing altogether or say that every langauge has to have same mechanism, or maybe do both; namespace is W3C way of doing extensibility on XML based languages 13:25:33 q? 13:26:02 Mark: not wedded to use of colon, HS said that processing in DOM would be different, but would be different anyway if allowed XML namespacing to work with these feature sets and a dash or underscore; lots of different technologies build on W3C namespacing -- parse local name and look for colon -- just another function call -- have to do for a dash anyway 13:26:02 markbirbeck, a script library could use hyphenated names only for both text/html and application/xhtml+xml 13:27:28 q+ 13:27:38 Mark: need for namespacing in this context -- could argue not needed for ARIA, except for giving names; bigger problem is extensibility of role in MLs worth talking about in broader context 13:28:08 RS: 1) even if fix colon issue in IE8 (theoretically), bottom line, companies not going to switch to it for a long time; a lot of companies still using IE6 13:28:21 Steven: not going to work either -- no attribute selectors on IE6 13:28:57 RS: want something to work now, not in a few years; second, there are a lot of cross-cutting techs that we all ought to consider how to make easy to pull into host language 13:28:59 ack Rich 13:29:08 ack shepazu 13:29:10 q+ to address the bug in IE 13:29:18 q? 13:30:52 q+ 13:31:06 DougS: namespacing in XML sense -- question as to why namespacing considered superior? not saying don't need namespacing, asking for justification for namespacing; agree that colon is not pragmatic at momement, which is why i have the following 2 opinions: 1. role should be incorporated into host language without namespacing but with reference; 2) if have technologies that cross-cut, need means of indicating this is not a native part of ML; when reference ARIA 13:31:12 Steven: isn't that namespacing? 13:32:00 DougS: broader idea than xml namespacing; why proposed underscore -- not part of schema, but distinctive enough to mark as role -- something other than native ML; 13:32:10 ack ChrisWilson 13:32:10 ChrisWilson, you wanted to address the bug in IE 13:32:18 q? 13:33:13 q? 13:34:00 ChrisW: highlight few things: bug in IE specifically in dynamic support of namespacing; not firing events on attributes, so don't change stylesheets applied to them if namespace changes in IE7; caution people not to focus on IE6 support -- usage drastically on decline; namespacing not used in HTML -- other UAs don't support; not goal to make all work in text/html; in meeting invite, statement that SVG didn't like dash or hyphen; thought context was hyphen used 13:34:57 DougS: not actual conflict -- not aria- properties in SVG; technically possible to use it, but if ever to do NDVL dispatching based on prefix, if prefix were aria_ would be easier to locate than aria- ; the dash also makes it appear to be part of SVG 13:35:19 CW: define all ARIA properties, allow individual host languages to determine embedding mechanism 13:35:38 q? 13:35:45 q+ 13:35:48 DougS: ease of authoring across HTML, XML, XHTML and SVG -- common format; easier for implementors to implement single scheme 13:35:55 q- 13:36:04 CW: understand authoring across schemae, but is just one scheme 13:36:15 ack markbirbeck 13:37:14 q? 13:38:00 q? 13:38:01 q+ 13:38:37 q+ 13:38:38 Mark: think that is proposal i was suggesting on list; others suggested same: define what these things mean, but retain syntax flexibility -- nothing wrong with having alternatives; if use role attribute in SVG need to use xml:role otherwise very quirky; nothing wrong with disabling aria: -- not appropriate to HTML; SVG in HTML muddies waters; in regular HTML don't want to mix technology of namespaces; suggestion is xh-role or xh:role -- xh: doesn't mean anythi 13:38:42 ack anne 13:39:20 q+ 13:39:26 AVK: don't see value in having diff syntax for different MLs -- why should HTML use xh:role? why would aria: need to be used in SVG? would allow SVG inside HTML serialization 13:39:31 DS: how more convenient? 13:39:43 ack Steven 13:39:44 AVK: less namespace processing in parser 13:40:02 q+ 13:40:10 q? 13:40:16 q+ to say using aria- in SVG will be easier for authors if HTML uses it too 13:40:46 Q+ 13:41:03 Steven: like what mark suggested; no real problem with pure SVG -- uses mechanism anyway; question of SVG in HTML is a different issue; XML-based lang uses namespacing mechanism, since can't use in HTML, use same syntax -- fact that doesn't get processed as namespace doesn't matter; achieve separate syntax 13:41:09 ack markbirbeck 13:41:16 Steven, that would lead to DOM discrepancies between the text/html and application/xhtml+xml serializations 13:42:49 Mark: agree; on AVK's points, doesn't mean anything to be more convenient; have to face fact that there are XML languages that already exist and a tool structured around those tools; asking SVG to change for HTML doesn't make sense today; a way off from that -- could do things now to set up for future, and one is using colon in both situations; can't simply throw away things -- need to try and find solution that begins where we are now 13:43:00 RS: having 2 vehicles may be way to do it -- dash and colon 13:43:03 q? 13:43:22 q+ to say that I'd like to see the same syntax for standalone SVG as for SVG in HTML 13:44:03 ack anne 13:44:07 q? 13:44:07 Mark: in other technologies imported into MLs, set of attributes and elements that can be integrated; definition of language could provide for both ways -- why not xh: and xh- and let diff MLs parse as proper 13:44:51 AVK: no real SVG usage on web; don't think helps to have 2 ways of acheiving same thing; just because SVG supports namespaces does 13:45:23 q+ 13:45:26 q? 13:46:05 HS: keep things simple -- same between HTML and XHTML as can do with id, class, xml:foo etc. trying to solve specific problem, not global problem; SMIL could use same attributes; ARIA spec defined in fairly abstract way 13:46:15 that was someone else 13:46:22 that was me oedipus 13:46:22 s/HS/AVK 13:46:31 ack hsivonen 13:46:31 hsivonen, you wanted to say using aria- in SVG will be easier for authors if HTML uses it too 13:46:35 q? 13:46:59 s/no real SVG/no real XML/ 13:47:07 q? 13:47:33 s/SVG supports namespaces does/SVG supports namespaces does not mean we should add more/ 13:48:50 ack shepazu 13:48:50 shepazu, you wanted to say that I'd like to see the same syntax for standalone SVG as for SVG in HTML 13:48:53 Henri: agree with anne; different markup languages shouldn't support same markup in different ways; keep DOM and UA consistent, HTML and XHTML needs to use aria- as well -- want to keep for text/html and application/xhtml+xml -- same type of authoring needed for SVG -- no value of doing different things in different places; just because SVG has hyphenated attributes, might as well use aria- in XML namespace in SVG; HTML5 parser that supports infoset to map HTML 13:48:54 q? 13:49:41 q? 13:50:09 DougS: agree with AVK that would be confusing for authors especially if try to do SVG in text/html; don't want to make harder for people to use SVG in HTML; if namespacing of role doesn't work in IE, that is a blocker for it working in SVG as well from authoring perspective 13:50:18 oedipus, the last bit: the discrepancy between lang and xml:lang is a pain. We should avoid more of that 13:51:03 Doug: same things that keep namespace attribute content for use in HTML would apply to SVG as well -- if using SVG inside HTML, need to abide by current UA limitations 13:51:08 q? 13:51:13 ack markbirbeck 13:51:36 q? 13:51:51 q+ to say the two things lead to the same conclusion 13:51:56 q? 13:52:58 q+ 13:52:59 Mark: hearing strange mixed messages -- let's keep simple want solution yesterday, and then some saying want to retrofit SVG for today's UAs; forward thinking a good idea, but think need to break problem into smaller peices; with the events defined concepts and made them available for people to use -- can say "defined role -- if use MLx do this way if use MLy do that way; can sort out SVG in HTML problem later; if say only 1 way to do cross-cutting tech will ge 13:53:40 q? 13:54:31 q? 13:54:53 ack hsivonen 13:54:53 hsivonen, you wanted to say the two things lead to the same conclusion 13:54:53 Mark: best way to move forward is say: support both mechanisms and hope that as things go forward, one will emerge as the dominant usage; role defined as taking a CURIE -- syntaxically looks like qname; people would like to put straight URI there -- change role so takes URI and "safe" CURIE (CURIE with square brackets around it); could have role used in places without a:b syntax; wouldn't prevent people from using in namespaced environment; solve a number of di 13:54:57 q? 13:55:29 HS: backwards compatible with DOM in old HTML UAs as well as integrating SVG into text/html -- different things, but both support same conclusion: avoid colon 13:55:48 q? 13:55:58 HS: designing concept and syntax -- ARIA already defines concept; this discussion is about getting discrete syntax to achieve that 13:56:01 ack anne 13:56:03 q? 13:56:24 AVK: not about a generic solution, just trying to solve specific problem; not talking about infinite number of MLs, but just ARIA 13:56:42 Steve: no, talking about possible infinite range of markup languages 13:56:49 q? 13:57:00 Mark: trying to change SVG to fit to your specific language 13:57:25 Mark: simply declaring attribute in no namespace, that is adding to SVG language 13:57:27 q? 13:57:54 q+ Rich 13:57:56 q? 13:58:08 Mark: thought point of call was cross-cutting technology; anything generic, general responded to with want to fix specific problem, but then raise host of other issues -- adding attributes in no namespaces 13:58:21 AVK: if use SVG inside HTML, makes sense to use same syntax 13:59:10 Doug: cannot treat as a single problem with no generalazible trends -- whether people want to acknowledge or not, that is what is on the table -- cross-cutting technology use 13:59:21 RS: problem with aria- in HTML and XHTML? 13:59:34 Steve: can't say yea or nay -- have to look at whole picture 14:00:30 E.g., in XML Events we allow @ev:handler in *any* language, and @handler in a language that wants to import the attributes. 14:00:33 Steve: way for it to work as cross-cutting technology is most important bit; don't feel need for DOM to be same on 2 serializations, but that's bye-the-bye -- have to define problem space before we can reach consensus; declarations don't address all parts of problem space 14:00:48 But we could have said @ev-handler was allowed in any language, too. 14:00:49 RS: meeting of PF WG next week at TPAC -- can people attend that meeting? 14:01:02 RS: tuesday morning 14:01:19 Doug: don't know if will be there have to join call now 14:01:29 RS: XHTML2 meeting starting now too 14:01:40 -Doug_Schepers 14:01:46 -Steven 14:01:48 -markbirbeck 14:01:54 zakim, unmute me 14:02:02 Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted 14:02:36 -hsivonen 14:02:42 -ChrisWilson 14:02:46 -Gregory_Rosmaita 14:02:48 -Rich 14:02:50 -Aaron_Leventhal 14:02:52 -anthony 14:02:57 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 14:03:11 rrsagent, create minutes 14:03:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-aria-minutes.html oedipus 14:03:17 rrsagent, format minutes 14:03:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-aria-minutes.html oedipus 14:03:22 rrsagent, publish minutes 14:03:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-aria-minutes.html oedipus 14:03:32 zakim, please part 14:03:42 Zakim has left #aria 14:03:46 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Aaron_Leventhal, Doug_Schepers, Steven, +1.313.069.aaaa, anne, hsivonen, Rich, +1.206.528.aabb, +020876aacc, 14:03:49 ... markbirbeck, anthony 14:04:08 rrsagent, publish minutes 14:04:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-aria-minutes.html oedipus 14:04:45 scribenick: oedipus 14:04:52 scribe+ Gregory_Rosmaita 14:04:56 scribe- oedipus 14:05:00 rrsagent, publish minutes 14:05:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-aria-minutes.html oedipus 14:12:05 anne has left #aria 14:28:56 shepazu has left #aria