14:42:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:42:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-rif-irc
14:42:56 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:42:56 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
14:43:22 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 30 October 2007
14:43:29 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:44:29 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 30 Oct telecon agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0127.html
14:44:33 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0127.html
14:44:45 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:44:45 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:44:56 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:45:07 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:45:13 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F8
14:45:19 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD
14:45:26 <ChrisW> agenda+ SWC
14:45:33 <ChrisW> agenda+ Arch
14:45:37 <ChrisW> agenda+ PRD
14:45:41 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:45:50 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:45:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:50:12 <ChrisW> Scribe: Leora Morgenstern
14:58:20 <csma> csma has joined #rif
14:58:43 <patranja> patranja has joined #rif
14:59:22 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:59:23 <Doug> Doug has joined #rif
14:59:26 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:59:34 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:59:41 <Zakim> +??P8
14:59:41 <Zakim> + +1.512.342.aaaa
14:59:48 <Doug> Zakim, aaaa is me
14:59:50 <Zakim> +Doug; got it
14:59:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:00:04 <csma> zakim, ??P8 is me
15:00:04 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:00:11 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:00:11 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:00:17 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:22 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:00:27 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:00:29 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doug, csma (muted), ChrisW
15:00:51 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:00:53 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:03 <csma> yes
15:01:06 <csma> muted
15:01:10 <Harold> Zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:01:10 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:01:19 <Zakim> + +1.800.555.aabb
15:01:21 <Zakim> +PaulaP
15:01:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, aabb is me
15:01:40 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:01:44 <ChrisW> scribenick: LeoraMorgenstern
15:01:54 <csma> sakim, unmute me
15:01:59 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:01 <csma> zakim, unmute me
15:02:01 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
15:02:04 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:02:04 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:02:24 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:02:24 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:03:11 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/att-0118/23-rif-minutes.html
15:03:17 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
15:03:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doug, csma, ChrisW, Harold, PaulaP (muted), LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell
15:03:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see StellaMitchell, LeoraMorgenstern, Doug, Harold, PaulaP, csma, RRSAgent, ChrisW, sandro, rifbot, Zakim
15:03:35 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minuts of 23 Oct telecon
15:04:05 <LeoraMorgenstern> No agenda amendments
15:04:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, next item
15:04:30 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:04:52 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: Common Logic is now an ISO standard.
15:05:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> cmsa: what is the impact  on RIF of it now being a standard?
15:05:35 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: unknown, since not much participation of Common Logic people in RIF.
15:05:44 <Zakim> +josb
15:05:46 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:05:47 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:05:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> cmsa: question was more general: what's the impact in general?
15:06:09 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:06:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: same as any other ISO standard: a particular organization can decided whether or not to use a particular ISO standard.
15:07:46 <josb> "ISO is a network of the national standards institutes of 157 countries, on the basis of one member per country, with a Central Secretariat in Geneva, Switzerland, that coordinates the system."
15:08:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> Some discussion between Chris and cmsa on what exactly ISO is, what their standards signify, and so on.
15:08:05 <josb> "ISO is a non-governmental organization: its members are not, as is the case in the United Nations system, delegations of national governments. Nevertheless, ISO occupies a special position between the public and private sectors. This is because, on the one hand, many of its member institutes are part of the governmental structure of their countries, or are mandated by their government. On...
15:08:06 <josb> ...the other hand, other members have their roots uniquely in the private sector, having been set up by national partnerships of industry associations."
15:08:09 <josb> http://www.iso.org/iso/about.htm
15:08:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> No other liaison news.
15:08:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, next item
15:08:43 <Zakim> agendum 3. "F2F8" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: no particular news
15:09:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> cmsa: there is a slightly more detailed agenda now on the web page
15:09:07 <josb> " Member bodies
15:09:09 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F8
15:09:09 <josb> A member body of ISO is the national body "most representative of standardization in its country". Only one such body for each country is accepted for membership of ISO. Member bodies are entitled to participate and exercise full voting rights on any technical committee and policy committee of ISO."
15:09:15 <josb> http://www.iso.org/iso/about/structure/members_categories.htm
15:09:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: Everyone should familiarize themselves with the agenda. 
15:09:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: As always, agenda is flexible, but probably we'll stick closely to it this time.
15:10:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Will put out reading list tomorrow
15:10:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro:  There will be about a dozen participants.
15:10:48 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: asking for input from RIF group on  whether to admit observers.
15:11:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: There have been <a number of> requests coming in each day.
15:11:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: anyone on the call with an opinion on observers?
15:11:21 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
15:11:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doug, csma, ChrisW, Harold, PaulaP (muted), LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, josb, Sandro
15:11:48 <Doug> I think that would be fine, in small numbers, with even a bit of vetting.
15:12:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: We should be selective on which observers to allow. We could allow some with technical expertise, but we shouldn't encourage basic decisions.
15:12:20 <csma> Doug, what does "vetting" mean?
15:12:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: We could allow observers to observe only, but not to speak.
15:12:35 <Doug> It was the negation of what Chris just said lol.
15:12:40 <Zakim> + +1.631.833.aacc
15:12:44 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/basic decisions/discussions on basic issues
15:12:45 <Doug> But I don't feel strongly about it.
15:12:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, next item
15:12:53 <Zakim> agendum 4. "BLD" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:13:03 <MichaelKifer> zakim, aacc is me
15:13:03 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:13:07 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/bld/draft-2007-10-19
15:13:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: We have a frozen draft of BLD, the Basic Logic Dialect.
15:13:13 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:13:13 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:13:28 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/bld/draft-2007-10-30
15:13:39 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/bld/diff-2007-10-19-to-2007-10-30
15:14:02 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:14:02 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:14:11 <csma> ok, I see them now
15:14:30 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:14:30 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:14:41 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: Any discussion on the most recent changes?
15:15:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> Micahel: Took some comments from Igor into account, and some comments sent privately from Jos. These are the only changes.
15:15:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: What's the status of the xml syntax?
15:15:39 <sandro> 2.2.1.3. XML Syntax
15:15:39 <sandro> EDITORS' NOTE: The XML syntax for BLD presented here is one of the proposals the Working Group is considering. It is presented here to get feedback on this strawman and to give readers an idea for the kind of information that will be presented in this section.
15:16:04 <sandro> also 3.1.1.3. XML Syntax
15:16:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: also a note before section 3.1.1.3
15:16:10 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/Micahel/Michael/
15:16:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: I thought we were more sure about this being xml syntax.
15:16:36 <sandro> PROPOSED: to drop those two 'EDITOR'S NOTE'
15:16:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: Can we remove those caveats?
15:16:41 <Doug> +1
15:16:55 <sandro> PROPOSED: to drop those two 'EDITORS NOTES'  (2.2.1.3, 3.1.1.3)
15:16:56 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:16:59 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:17:04 <csma> zakim, unmute mùe
15:17:04 <Zakim> sorry, csma, I do not know which phone connection belongs to mùe
15:17:08 <csma> sakim unmute me
15:17:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> RESOLVED: to drop those two 'EDITORS NOTES' (2.2.1.3, 3.1.1.,3)
15:17:12 <MichaelKifer> +1
15:17:13 <csma> zakim, unmute me
15:17:13 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
15:17:41 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: no agreement regarding xml syntax.
15:18:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: Nevertheless, it's as mature as other parts of the document, and therefore, there's no need to single out xml.
15:18:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: We did discuss having such a warning at the last F2F.
15:18:40 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:18:40 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:19:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: as the caveat is written, it's not correct.  The text says it's a strawman, etc. So we'd have to correct the text.
15:19:12 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
15:19:23 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (86%), LeoraMorgenstern (29%), Sandro (69%)
15:19:30 <sandro> PROPOSED: to drop those two 'EDITOR'S NOTE'
15:19:32 <sandro> oops
15:19:39 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:19:49 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (69%), LeoraMorgenstern (9%), Sandro (36%)
15:19:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: dropping these caveats is not something we all agreed on.
15:20:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: There are lots of open issues that we are not calling out.
15:21:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: open issues that could affect BLD.
15:21:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: We're past the stage that the comment was intended to address.
15:21:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: I agree that this editor's note is not to the point, so I have no objection to removing it.
15:21:46 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:21:50 <sandro> csma: I wont block this.   Let the resolution stand, to drop these.
15:22:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: I think we should draft Section 5, which is an appendix.
15:22:16 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/bld/diff-2007-10-19-to-2007-10-30#Specification
15:22:17 <GaryHallmark> q+ to ask if there is an xml schema
15:22:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> RESOLVED: to drop those two 'EDITOR'S NOTE'
15:22:29 <GaryHallmark> +q
15:23:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Various changes to Section 5.
15:23:28 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:23:40 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:23:50 <ChrisW> zakim, mute LeoraMorgenstern
15:23:50 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:24:20 <sandro> how about echo now?
15:24:44 <GaryHallmark> +1 to publish XSD
15:25:15 <ChrisW> echo gone
15:25:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: point to XSD in Appendix. ?? (check)
15:25:33 <GaryHallmark> +1 to XSD consistent w/ syntax transform rules
15:25:52 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: objection to other sentences in Appendix.
15:25:57 <csma> A syntactic specification of RIF BLD is given here as the combination of the RIF Condition and RIF Rule syntaxes.
15:26:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: First sentence points to nothing and therefore should be removed.
15:26:05 <GaryHallmark> -q
15:26:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: but if you go into XSD you have it.
15:26:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Then this sentence has to be made clearer, so it's clear it's pointing to xml schema.
15:26:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Since diagram has been removed, sentence should be removed as well.
15:27:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: And also, remove the word "default" from second sentence.
15:27:38 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: point to XSD or include it?
15:27:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: include it. (Otherwise people may not click and read it.)
15:28:52 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: will copy xml schema into this section.
15:29:35 <sandro> PROPOSED: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Specification as on the wiki right now PLUS having the XML schema included there.
15:29:49 <sandro> RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Specification as on the wiki right now PLUS having the XML schema included there.
15:30:24 <josb> q+
15:30:42 <sandro> csma: I want to make sure the Slotted Syntax bit is on the issues list
15:31:05 <sandro> jos: I think it should be mentioned in the draft that slotted is unders discussion as per subclass
15:31:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, unmute me
15:31:19 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
15:31:23 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/bld/diff-2007-10-19-to-2007-10-30#head-aa15dd38046d0b497df6b86069c4006083d0c0d1
15:32:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: we have never decided to include slotted terms in BLD.
15:32:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: should have caveat in text saying that this hasn't been decided and pointing to the issue.
15:33:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: editorially, this should be an editor's note.
15:33:16 <sandro> Let's change the text, "The use of membership and subclass formulas is an open issue in the current draft http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/41." to be prefixed with 'Editor's Note'
15:33:59 <josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/44
15:34:02 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/44
15:35:36 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Slotted_Conditions
15:35:46 <sandro> both changes made.
15:36:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: no other links of this sort exist in the document.
15:36:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> (BTW, my irc is excruciatingly slow today)
15:36:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> PROPOSED: publish first working draft of Basic Logic Dialect (BLD)
15:36:46 <LeoraMorgenstern> Yes,
15:36:52 <LeoraMorgenstern> I can keep up, although someitmes irc has a big lag
15:37:12 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
15:37:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doug, csma, ChrisW, Harold, PaulaP (muted), LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, josb, MichaelKifer (muted), Gary_Hallmark, Sandro
15:37:17 <sandro> Doug Lenat, Cleveland Clinic
15:37:20 <Doug> +1
15:37:26 <sandro> Harold Boley, National Research Council Canada
15:37:32 <Harold> Yes.
15:37:34 <Harold> +1
15:37:35 <sandro> Paula-Lavinia Patranjan, REWERSE
15:37:37 <PaulaP> yes
15:37:41 <sandro> Leora Morgenstern, IBM Corporation
15:37:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> yes
15:37:49 <sandro> Jos de Bruijn, Free University of Bozen-Bolzano
15:37:51 <josb> +1
15:37:51 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:37:58 <AxelPolleres> sorry!
15:38:00 <sandro> Sandro Hawke, W3C/MIT
15:38:01 <sandro> YES
15:38:06 <sandro> Michael Kifer, W3C Invited Experts
15:38:15 <MichaelKifer> +1
15:38:18 <sandro> Gary Hallmark, Oracle
15:38:25 <sandro> YES
15:38:37 <sandro> I'll note proxy from HP: Yes.
15:38:47 <josb> JSI
15:38:54 <sandro> Chris: Proxy YES from Igor, JSI
15:39:09 <AxelPolleres> if votes for drafts are discussed at the moment: DERI Galway votes yes.
15:39:22 <sandro> Christian de Sainte Marie, ILOG, S.A.
15:39:23 <sandro> YES
15:39:32 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish BLD
15:39:33 <LeoraMorgenstern> RESOLVED: publish first working draft of Basic Logic Dialect (BLD)
15:39:44 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, next item
15:39:44 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LeoraMorgenstern
15:39:49 <ChrisW> q?
15:39:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> okay, zakim!
15:39:56 <ChrisW> ack josb
15:40:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, next item
15:40:01 <Zakim> agendum 5. "SWC" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:40:16 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:40:16 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:40:29 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/swc/draft-2007-10-19
15:40:30 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/swc/draft-2007-10-19
15:40:49 <csma> q?
15:41:07 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/swc/draft-2007-10-25
15:41:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> josb: There have been updates since the last frozen version which was discussed in the telecon.
15:41:19 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/rdf-owl/draft-2007-10-25
15:41:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> josb: This  update was done on Oct. 25.
15:41:42 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: Comments on this version?
15:42:27 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/rdf-owl/draft-2007-10-25
15:42:34 <sandro> Doug Lenat, Cleveland Clinic
15:42:37 <Doug> yes
15:42:39 <sandro> Christian de Sainte Marie, ILOG, S.A.
15:42:40 <csma> yes
15:42:46 <sandro> Harold Boley, National Research Council Canada
15:42:47 <Harold> yes
15:42:51 <sandro> Paula-Lavinia Patranjan, REWERSE
15:42:52 <PaulaP> yes
15:42:54 <sandro> Leora Morgenstern, IBM Corporation
15:42:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> yes
15:42:58 <sandro> Jos de Bruijn, Free University of Bozen-Bolzano
15:43:00 <josb> +1
15:43:03 <sandro> Sandro Hawke, W3C/MIT
15:43:04 <sandro> yes
15:43:08 <sandro> Michael Kifer, W3C Invited Experts
15:43:09 <MichaelKifer> +1
15:43:14 <sandro> Gary Hallmark, Oracle
15:43:16 <GaryHallmark> yes
15:43:19 <sandro> Axel Polleres, DERI Galway
15:43:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro, axel seems to have just quite
15:43:42 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/quite/quit
15:43:45 <Zakim> +??P0
15:44:04 <sandro> yes vote from Axel
15:44:07 <sandro> [ Proxy Dave Reynolds, HP -- YES ]
15:44:11 <sandro> [ Proxy Igor, JSI -- YES ]
15:44:37 <sandro> RESOLVED: public rdf-owl-compat, all in favor
15:44:41 <csma> zakim, unmute me
15:44:41 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
15:44:46 <sandro> s/public/publish/
15:45:00 <PaulaP> :)
15:45:05 <josb> will you pay?
15:45:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: The 3 editors, Michael, Harold, and Jos, are thanked for a job well done.
15:45:20 <sandro> <applause>
15:45:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: item not on the agenda: New publication regarding Core.
15:46:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: At this point, it looks like the March 30 version of Core is the latest thing, not BLD. So perhaps there should be a stub for Core, pointing to the BLD document.
15:46:27 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0135.html
15:46:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: So I drafted some next text:
15:46:43 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0130.html
15:46:52 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:46:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: at the above two links.
15:48:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: Comments or discussion on this text?
15:49:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> PROPOSE: Replace RIF Core Working Draft with stub consisting of these two emails, linked above.
15:49:10 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish a Core stub as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0130.html amended as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0135.html
15:49:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: any objections?
15:49:44 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: any absentions?
15:49:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/absentions/abstentions/
15:50:06 <sandro> RESOLEVED: (no objections, no abstentions) Publish a Core stub as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0130.html amended as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0135.html
15:50:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, next item
15:50:08 <Zakim> agendum 7. "PRD" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:50:12 <sandro> RESOLVED: (no objections, no abstentions) Publish a Core stub as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0130.html amended as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0135.html
15:50:48 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/PRdialect
15:51:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: We have a strawman for a PR dialect, based on relatively standard use of substitutions in production rules (??)
15:51:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Syntax and semantics are the same as for BLD, but don't use classification. Also some syntactic sugar added for
15:52:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: semantics is given in terms of operational terms wrt pattern matching
15:52:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: thinks this can be shown equivalent to model-theoretic interpretation of conditions
15:53:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Two actions: assert and retract
15:53:42 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: to comply with OMB PRR, must have an assign action
15:53:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: specficiation for rule-set rules.
15:54:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: syntax is slightly different than for BLD, but they could be aligned.
15:54:48 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: operational semantics can be mapped onto model-theoretic semantics here too.
15:54:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: preliminary: no examples, no xml
15:55:31 <Harold> q+
15:55:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: has some feedback from someone Bernard at ILOG, who loved it.
15:56:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Is on reading list for F2F8
15:56:21 <csma> s/bernard/bonnard/
15:56:27 <ChrisW> ack har
15:56:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: need to read in next few days in order to have comments in time for F2F.
15:57:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: question about bindings of variables in conditions
15:58:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: will these differ from what happens to rules in a logic language.
15:58:27 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
15:58:27 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
15:58:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> harold: i.e., what happens with respect to binding of variables to conditions of rules in a logic language.
15:58:29 <Zakim> 7. PRD [from ChrisW]
15:58:30 <Zakim> 8. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:58:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: production rule systems use variables and patterns differently.
15:59:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> (note to self: clean up and clarify harold's question, above.)
15:59:38 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 6
15:59:38 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Arch" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:59:53 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:59:53 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:59:58 <Harold> My first impression: PRD patterns could/should be represented as BLD conditions with free variables -- maybe we could enrich BLD in WD3 to introduce optional annotations for what's needed in PRD.
16:00:02 <GaryHallmark> there is also a lot of historical crud in PR systems that we don't necessarily need to perpertuate...
16:00:14 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/Extensibility_Design_Choices
16:00:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> +1 to Gary
16:01:12 <csma> Harold, I used ATOMIC for pattern for simplicity's purpose, but I agree that they could be full-fledged CONDITION
16:01:26 <Harold> +1
16:01:28 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:01:28 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:01:29 <AxelPolleres> probably best to go quickly through it, I suggest. my silence is due to lack of time reading it, honestly
16:01:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: has some comments on this document; hasn't yet had a chance to send comments via email.
16:03:15 <AxelPolleres> q+
16:03:17 <csma> Harold, Gary, the reason why I limited patterns to ATOMIC (which means that the set of patterns is a conjunction of patterns)
16:03:48 <csma> is that I am not sure most PR implementation would be able to implement full CONDITIONs as patterns.
16:04:20 <csma> q?
16:04:30 <ChrisW> ack axel
16:04:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> <Sandro going through his document, since most haven't had a chance to read it.>
16:05:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: comments on definition of "independent extension"
16:05:35 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Sandro's text says: Independent Extensions are extensions which can be arbitrarily combined with each other,
16:05:44 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: "arbitrarily" seems a bit strong.
16:06:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: e.g., if you have a dialogue with a bunch of extensions, it makes sense to say they're independent if they can be arbitrarily combined.
16:06:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: analogous to software packaging today.
16:06:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: you could have very complex dependecies between extensions.
16:07:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: perhaps cleaner to define that, and define independence in terms of that.
16:07:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
16:08:43 <AxelPolleres> I think we should mark the "invisible extensions" definitly as to be discussed. It is difficult to deal with such extensions. I think semantically different things should be syntactically different.
16:08:50 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:08:52 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:09:48 <AxelPolleres> +1 to Leora, that we need an example where one would think that this is useful... well ,you may refer to something like "layering" in OWL here, which we discussed on the list?
16:10:10 <csma> q+
16:10:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> q-
16:10:42 <sandro> Lattice
16:10:51 <csma> q?
16:10:57 <csma> ack csma
16:11:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: don't understand the issue of planning for non-standard extensions, dialects
16:14:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: all extensions formed by the non-standard dialects of Core?
16:14:07 <Harold> We could talk about the 'big picture': the lattice of all possible and all envisioned dialects as well as the 'extends' relationships between them.
16:14:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: yes to csma
16:14:32 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/AbstractModel
16:14:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: could define dialect in terms of extensions
16:14:35 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:14:35 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:15:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> <Axel now presenting his new doc, linked above.)
16:15:10 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/AbstractModel
16:15:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/above.)/above.>)
16:15:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/above.)/above.>/
16:22:26 <csma> MagicDraw
16:26:40 <csma> zakim, am I still there?
16:26:40 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, csma.
16:27:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: Axel, your dialect is defined as a set of constraints on the abstract model, as opposed to constraints on xml.
16:27:39 <csma> q+
16:28:44 <csma> ack csma
16:29:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: could dialects have different xml syntaxes?
16:29:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> axel: possibly --- after all, different existing rules languages already have different xml syntaxes.
16:30:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> axel: but could have an additional sort of rif independent xml syntax.
16:30:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> ChrisW: This draft will be discussed at the F2F meeting next week.
16:31:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, next item
16:31:09 <Zakim> agendum 7. "PRD" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:31:16 <PaulaP> bye
16:31:18 <Zakim> -Harold
16:31:20 <Zakim> -PaulaP
16:31:21 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:31:21 <Doug> bye
16:31:25 <Zakim> -Doug
16:31:27 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:31:29 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:31:31 <Zakim> -??P0
16:31:33 <Zakim> -josb
16:31:34 <sandro> Harold, e-mail me when the Schema is on, okay?
16:31:39 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, next item
16:31:39 <Zakim> agendum 7 was just opened, LeoraMorgenstern
16:31:45 <sandro> zakim, list attendees
16:31:45 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.512.342.aaaa, Doug, csma, ChrisW, Harold, +1.800.555.aabb, PaulaP, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, josb, Sandro, +1.631.833.aacc,
16:31:46 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 8
16:31:50 <Zakim> ... MichaelKifer, Gary_Hallmark
16:31:51 <Zakim> agendum 8. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:31:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> no other business. Adjourned.
16:32:20 <ChrisW> Regrets: IgorMozetic, AllenGinsberg, DaveReynolds
16:32:35 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:50 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
16:36:02 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:36:05 <Zakim> -csma
16:36:30 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:36:32 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:36:33 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.512.342.aaaa, Doug, csma, ChrisW, Harold, +1.800.555.aabb, PaulaP, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, josb, Sandro, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer, Gary_Hallmark
16:57:01 <csma> csma has left #rif
17:13:21 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif