IRC log of rdfa on 2007-10-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:46 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

13:57:46 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/26-rdfa-irc

13:57:52 [Ralph]

zakim, this will be rdfa

13:57:52 [Zakim]

ok, Ralph; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

13:58:49 [Ralph]

Meeting: RDFa Task Force

13:58:55 [Ralph]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0235.html

13:59:14 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-10-18

13:59:24 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please make record public

13:59:52 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)10:00AM has now started

13:59:59 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

14:00:11 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:01:57 [ShaneM]

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14:02:17 [Zakim]

+??P19

14:02:23 [msporny]

zakim, I am p19

14:02:23 [Zakim]

sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named 'p19'

14:02:26 [msporny]

zakim, I am ??p19

14:02:26 [Zakim]

+msporny; got it

14:02:49 [ShaneM]

zakim, what is the code

14:02:49 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'what is the code', ShaneM

14:03:05 [Ralph]

zakim, what is the code?

14:03:05 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Ralph

14:03:43 [Ralph]

Regrets: Michael

14:03:50 [Zakim]

+ +1.763.767.aaaa

14:04:01 [ShaneM]

zakim, aaaa is Steven

14:04:01 [Zakim]

+Steven; got it

14:04:04 [ShaneM]

ooops

14:04:08 [ShaneM]

zakim, aaa is ShaneM

14:04:08 [Zakim]

sorry, ShaneM, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'

14:04:17 [Ralph]

zakim, steven is really Shane

14:04:17 [Zakim]

+Shane; got it

14:04:35 [Ralph]

Regrets+ Steven

14:05:11 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben enter Ivan's concerns in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0173.html as issues in tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

14:05:15 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:05:43 [Ralph]

ACTION: Michael and Manu investigate with Ivan the implementation of the test case validator proposal on w3.org [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

14:05:47 [Ralph]

-- in progress

14:05:54 [Ralph]

Manu: test harness and validator pretty much done

14:06:13 [Ralph]

... only item left to talk with Ivan about is where to host

14:06:22 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

14:06:25 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:06:34 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

14:06:36 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:06:43 [Ralph]

ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

14:06:45 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:07:17 [markbirbeck]

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14:07:39 [markbirbeck]

Had a call, I'm afraid. Coming now.

14:07:53 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

14:07:53 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

14:07:59 [Ralph]

Ralph: I was asked to join a SWEO face-to-face on Wednesday to talk about RDFa outreach

14:08:40 [Zakim]

+??P21

14:08:49 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?

14:08:49 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

14:08:57 [Ralph]

... I pointed out that Michael has this action

14:09:11 [Ralph]

Manu: I'm heavily involved in microformat community

14:09:15 [Ralph]

... I could talk with SWEO

14:09:41 [Simone]

Simone has joined #rdfa

14:10:04 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/sweo/ SWEO WG

14:10:37 [Ralph]

Ben: There were some recent responses on the mailing list too, offering help

14:12:43 [Ralph]

Ralph: Syntax doc was published last Friday

14:13:09 [Ralph]

... SWD approved publishing new Primer on Tuesday

14:13:36 [Ralph]

... Ben has given me the PubRules-compliant version of the Primer today, so I hope to be able to finish that this afternoon

14:14:03 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:14:07 [Ralph]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0235.html

14:14:07 [Simone]

Zakim, IPcaller is me

14:14:07 [Zakim]

+Simone; got it

14:14:35 [Ralph]

Chair: Mark

14:14:53 [msporny]

http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

14:15:47 [msporny]

http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com:8080/

14:15:57 [Ralph]

Topic: Status of Test Cases / Test Harness

14:16:26 [Ralph]

Manu: anyone who has implemented their RDFa parser as a on-line Web service can use this harness

14:16:34 [Ralph]

... Benjee has started to use it

14:16:42 [Ralph]

... two of the test cases have not been updated

14:16:48 [Ralph]

... tests 11 and 29 fail

14:16:53 [Ralph]

... they shouldn't fail

14:17:23 [Ralph]

Mark: this is about stripping whitespace

14:17:36 [Ralph]

Manu: yes; they pyrdf implementation differs from Benjee's

14:18:00 [Ralph]

Mark: I thought we had concluded that we should strip whitespace [from the test cases]

14:18:15 [Ralph]

... because some browsers always strip whitespace, so it can't be recovered

14:18:26 [Ralph]

Ben: yes, we'd agreed to strip whitespace

14:18:35 [Ralph]

... we added a pointer to the CSS language

14:19:00 [Ralph]

Shane: Steven is the right person to describe this language

14:19:15 [Ralph]

... I wanted to defer to CSS language

14:19:39 [Ralph]

... the issue the XHTML2 WG faced was that we were asked by CSS not to reproduce their text so as not to introduce errors

14:19:50 [Ralph]

... we then copied their text verbatim but they didn't like that either

14:20:02 [Ralph]

Manu: so should we just point to CSS?

14:20:12 [Ralph]

Mark: no, we don't want our spec to change as a result of CSS changes

14:20:35 [Ralph]

... we might even want to adapt the language to our processing model

14:21:07 [Ralph]

Shane: it's identified as an issue in the draft

14:22:01 [Ralph]

Steven, are you willing to take an action to adapt the CSS language and propose it here?

14:22:39 [Ralph]

Ben: I'll talk with Michael about test 29; that's part of my action to turn Ivan's comments into issues

14:23:03 [Ralph]

Manu: are we also stripping whitespace from XML literals?

14:23:14 [Ralph]

Mark: yes, I think we have the same problem there and need to be conservative

14:23:30 [Ralph]

... that does mean we might lose information, e.g., in PRE

14:23:48 [Ralph]

Ben: there are rules that browsers follow to preserve whitespace in PRE

14:23:53 [Ralph]

... are those documented anywhere?

14:24:04 [Ralph]

Mark: part of the problem is that the HTML and XHTML rules are different

14:24:18 [Ralph]

Shane: maybe. I've heard people say this, but never heard a CSS expert say so

14:24:37 [Ralph]

Mark: I thought we needed certain CSS rules because HTML does remove leading and trailing spaces

14:24:50 [Ralph]

... but I didn't encounter this problem in an HTML DOM

14:25:28 [Ralph]

Ben: I have experienced this problem

14:25:39 [Ralph]

... in FireFox, the DOM has stripped the whitespace

14:26:15 [Ralph]

... when writing HTML I like to space things out; the browsers seem to ignore this

14:26:29 [Ralph]

Mark: we can define processing of literals differently from XML literals

14:27:33 [Ralph]

... it would be nice to find out from implementors those cases where whitespace is stripped

14:27:34 [Steven]

I'm willing to take a look

14:27:51 [Ralph]

at adapting the CSS language, Steven?

14:27:57 [Steven]

yes

14:27:59 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

14:28:00 [Ralph]

great; thanks

14:28:23 [Ralph]

ACTION: Steven propose an adaptation of the CSS whitespace rules to incorporate into the Syntax document

14:28:57 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

14:29:50 [Ralph]

Mark: let's try to resolve the issue on whitespace in literals on the list

14:30:56 [Ralph]

Ben: I do see FireFox stripping the whitespace and I like it that way

14:31:10 [Ralph]

Mark: I'll double-check mine, then; I'm pretty sure I'm seeing whitespace preserved

14:31:31 [Ralph]

Topic: handling @rel legacy values

14:31:54 [Ralph]

Mark: not only the HTML rel values but also other uses, e.g. Dublin Core

14:32:15 [Ralph]

Topic: @instanceof

14:32:29 [Ralph]

Mark: Ben and I had a long conversation and we have agreed on an approach to resolve the issue

14:32:41 [Ralph]

... Ben has sent me a set of use cases and I'll look at them

14:33:17 [Ralph]

Topic: handling @rel legacy values

14:33:46 [Ralph]

Manu: some of the proposed triples seemed strange in relation to Mark's proposal

14:34:00 [Ralph]

Shane: none of my triples addressed Mark's proposal

14:34:39 [Ralph]

... (with my XHTML hat ...)

14:34:59 [Ralph]

... in the XHTML world there are some defined values in XHTML 1, XHTML 1.1

14:35:03 [Ralph]

... this is an extensible set

14:35:25 [Ralph]

... the purpose of adding RDFa to XHTML2 two years ago was to help enable the Semantic Web for the common use cases

14:35:34 [Ralph]

... that's why the XHTML2 WG is interested in RDFa

14:36:00 [Ralph]

... so requiring the defined values to include a ':' does not address the XHTML2 use case

14:36:25 [Ralph]

Ben: there's also forward-looking interest from XHTML2

14:36:29 [Ralph]

Shane: yes, on extensibility

14:36:50 [Ralph]

... but the initial goal was to take advantage of the community mindshare that existing markup does generate triples

14:38:09 [Ralph]

Mark: I do favor Shane's position, however given the problems we've had in that discussion, I've given up on pursuing that

14:38:35 [Ralph]

... so I'm suggesting a solution that doesn't skew things so we're prevented from doing other things in the future

14:38:47 [Ralph]

... so adding ':' prefix is a sort of minimal solution

14:39:42 [Ralph]

... if we take it informally that people should also parse 'next' and 'prev' in addition to ':next' and ':prev' but not specify how, that will buy us some time

14:40:10 [Ralph]

... we should take our time to get this right; look at Dublin Core, @profile, and others

14:40:25 [Ralph]

Manu: I agree with Mark

14:40:46 [Ralph]

... the biggest problem we've had in talking with microformats is in defining how these things should work

14:41:59 [Ralph]

... moving the discussion into legacy versus here's what you get by adding RDFa is a way to move forward, without discussing specifically what properties come from [specific values of] @rel and @rev

14:42:24 [Ralph]

... could we get feedback from the XHTML2 WG?

14:43:42 [Ralph]

Shane: I don't think we'd get a different answer from the XHTML2 WG than the ones Mark and I just gave

14:44:21 [Ralph]

... there's value in saying the author has to explicitly say they want a triple [by adding ':']

14:45:03 [Ralph]

... but it's not consistent to say that implementations may generate other triples and allow those triples to appear in the default graph

14:45:38 [Ralph]

Mark: it's a matter of interpretation whether @rel='next' exists yet as a triple

14:46:10 [Ralph]

... I have strong views on the solution, so the discussion may take a while

14:46:34 [Ralph]

Ben: we're defining RDFa. @rel='next' already has a meaning based on the XHTML1.1 specification

14:46:54 [Ralph]

... the idea behind Mark's proposal is "don't mess with the existing meaning"

14:48:01 [Ralph]

... so Mark's proposal is that RDFa not change the meaning

14:48:46 [Ralph]

... since there is a meaning

14:49:50 [Ralph]

Ralph: but the current meaning is not expressed as a triple, so the RDFa spec should not encourage generating that triple without defining it

14:50:06 [Ralph]

Mark: My proposal is to not specify a triple for @rel='next'

14:50:36 [Ralph]

Shane: would we change CURIE to require ':'?

14:50:37 [Ralph]

Mark: no

14:50:57 [Ralph]

Shane: so the processing rules would change to ignore when there's no ':'?

14:51:07 [Ralph]

Ben: those sound like flimsy host-language-specific rules

14:51:29 [Ralph]

Mark: I'm suggesting 'undefined' rather than 'not processed'

14:51:51 [Ralph]

Manu: with the notion of a preprocessing step, 'ignore anything without a colon' works

14:52:23 [Ralph]

... later, preprocessing can add ':' to @rel='next'

14:52:37 [Ralph]

Mark: I'm trying to avoid saying anything about preprocessing

14:53:08 [Ralph]

Manu: we do expect to define preprocessing in the future

14:53:25 [Ralph]

Mark: yes, but we don't yet know enough about what we want to specify in preprocessing

14:55:06 [Ralph]

... we don't currently know enough to specify how to deal with the legacy values

14:56:12 [Ralph]

... I don't see a big issue in citing examples of legacy values and saying "we don't know yet how we want to handle these"

14:56:12 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-work

14:56:13 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:56:14 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:56:52 [Ralph]

Shane: I think if we're not going to solve this in the first Recommendation for XHTML1.1+RDFa, then we don't need to ever define it

14:57:23 [Ralph]

... once we've established a baseline that requires a ':', we should just stick with it

14:58:13 [Ralph]

... this is separate from whether CURIEs must have a colon

14:58:17 [Ralph]

... just triples require a colon

14:58:52 [Ralph]

Ralph: my concern is about interoperability

14:59:27 [Ralph]

... we're not doing the community any favors if we release a spec that we *expect* will be implemented different ways without interoperability

14:59:29 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule

15:00:06 [Ralph]

Topic: Schedule

15:00:40 [Ralph]

Ben: we'll need to push to resolve these issues before [Nov 22], as things will slow down after then

15:01:38 [Ralph]

Shane: will we meet on 8 Nov?

15:01:41 [Ralph]

Ben: no

15:02:34 [Ralph]

... but 1 Nov we should meet; note it will be 1 hour earlier for Europeans

15:02:39 [Ralph]

... i.e. at 1500 UTC

15:03:50 [Ralph]

... after November it will be at 1600 UTC

15:04:17 [Zakim]

-Shane

15:04:19 [Ralph]

[adjourned]

15:04:21 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:04:22 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

15:04:25 [Zakim]

-Ralph

15:04:30 [Zakim]

-msporny

15:04:34 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:04:42 [Zakim]

-Simone

15:04:46 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)10:00AM has ended

15:04:48 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ben_Adida, Ralph, msporny, +1.763.767.aaaa, Shane, markbirbeck, Simone, Steven

15:05:03 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:05:03 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/26-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

15:05:06 [Ralph]

zakim, bye

15:05:14 [Zakim]

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