IRC log of sweo on 2007-10-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:28:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sweo
13:28:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-sweo-irc
13:28:14 [ivan]
rrsagent, set log public
13:28:23 [ivan]
Meeting: SWEO F2F meeting
13:28:29 [ivan]
Chair: Susie
13:28:36 [ivan]
scribenick: ivan
13:28:44 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
13:28:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MIT262
13:28:46 [Zakim]
MIT262 has Susie, Uldi, Philip, Ashworth, David, Probost, Uldis, MartinD, Ivan, Dean, Alemang, Leo, Orri, Iryana, Karen
13:28:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, ghard, UldisB, Dunja, Karen, LeeF, ivan, MartinD, Zakim, leobard
13:29:10 [UldisB]
currently: Leo Sauermann
13:29:41 [LeeF]
currently: Dunja (on IRC only), from REWERSE
13:29:45 [ivan]
Topic: Susie introction
13:30:05 [deanallemang]
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13:30:21 [ivan]
(slides will be on the web, link to be put into the minutes later)
13:31:23 [leobard]
susie talks about the agenda...
13:32:01 [leobard]
... Ian Jacobs is going to join us later ...
13:35:07 [leobard]
... susie continues on the achievements of this year ...
13:35:44 [leobard]
btw: 26 on the website
13:37:17 [leobard]
ivan reports that many people use them and that they are a good success
13:38:43 [MartinD]
scribe: MartinD
13:38:49 [MartinD]
- a questionnaire has been spread around, to obtain interests, focus, etc from the relevant companies,...
13:38:57 [MartinD]
- requested features include collaterals, use cases, case studies (currently 26!) from applied SWT --> useful resource giving multiple examples of how people do things, how they address different aspects of SWT
13:39:04 [MartinD]
- over past weeks we got feedback on case studies; from people doing education, analyses and so --> even inspired other groups in W3C to produce something similar for their areas
13:39:42 [MartinD]
- also substantial work has been done on collecting information about SWT, putting it all together as a SW portal
13:40:47 [MartinD]
- Benji has put sme effort into producing a SW logo, which has been now adopted, people quite like it... some comments were received w.r.t. soliciting feedback from a broader community, this will be looked at
13:41:36 [MartinD]
- also, a brochure has been produced (Dunja, Ian J.,...) -> this is now more or less ready to be rolled out, went through W3C comm. dpt.
13:42:29 [MartinD]
- Semantic Gatherings have been organized in the Boston area -> about 20 people per meeting, not always the same groups in diff. meetings
13:42:45 [leobard]
hey, bengee comes!
13:43:09 [MartinD]
--> maybe something similar might be organized in other places, e.g. Amsterdam or so (sounds as a good idea)
13:44:31 [MartinD]
- SWEO aims to develop strageies and materials to promote SWT and produce relevant materials --> we believe, we're on a good way to fulfill this charter
13:45:00 [ivan]
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13:45:48 [MartinD]
--- scope: develop online and printed materials for outreach (brochures, use cases, etc.) --> we haven't quite developed tutorials, but some were contributed from the partner institutions and this might be also a consideration for the future
13:46:31 [MartinD]
--- our fact sheet, FAQ doc is a useful resource, as are use/business cases (the cases for university are less prominent, but that has been a conscious decision)
13:47:15 [ghard]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HollandSemanticWebGatherings
13:47:25 [MartinD]
--- less work has been done (so far) in the area of actually teaching and producing educational materials (some collab. possible with summer schools on SWT, etc)
13:48:28 [MartinD]
--- several SWT are in the pipeline to be released soon, so we should perhaps be more going into an interactive mode and work with other WG @ W3C in identifying needs, priorities
13:48:36 [IanJ]
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13:50:15 [MartinD]
--- one thing that hasn't quite materialized was an outreach to CTOs and CIOs, but we would need to collaborate with some consultancy agencies to achieve this --> however, there is a relationship to SWT cofnerence at the west coast, this one aims at businesses already, so might not be effective to duplicate effort
13:51:00 [MartinD]
--- W3C intends to play some role at this SWT conference, as well as at its European counterpart --> so better to focus on these channels, rather than reinvent the same
13:52:13 [MartinD]
mode +o
13:52:47 [UldisB]
--- a similar event - a panel for CIOs/CTOs - took place at ISWC 2005 in Galway
13:53:19 [MartinD]
- we should consider how to wrap up this group and also how this activity should/could/might continue
13:53:58 [bengee]
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13:54:00 [leobard]
ivan: those people from business/companies that do outreach from business would be interesting as members.
13:54:05 [UldisB]
we expected more people from marketing departments in SWEO
13:54:13 [leobard]
ivan: at the moment we have many techies, besides Dunja
13:54:38 [MartinD]
--- originally, we expected more members coming from marketing depts. = people who do outreach in their respective businesses; in reality, most members are tech.people with some interest in outreach, but mainly technologists (with some notable exceptions)
13:55:18 [UldisB]
currently there are more techies in SWEO, which got us in all kinds of technical discussions, while we should focus more on the marketing/outreach side
13:56:27 [MartinD]
--- this focus should at some point be revisited, to really get the foot into the marketing rooms
13:56:55 [ivan]
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13:57:12 [leobard]
Melli introduces herself.
13:57:42 [ivan]
http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/CorePresentations
13:57:44 [MartinD]
switch to ivan's summary on the "state of union" (= SWT)
13:57:54 [Dunja]
+1
13:58:27 [ivan]
http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/CorePresentations/State_of_SW/
13:58:27 [deana]
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13:58:37 [Susie]
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13:59:15 [MartinD]
- there are several sets of slides that include the work of SWEO, these are regularly used by Ivan, W3C, ...
14:00:47 [MartinD]
--- a substantial part is about the technologies, which was slightly unconvincing, but SWEO has helped to make a significant progress in this area = now a nice resource
14:00:58 [MartinD]
(note: we are looking now at the second URL)
14:01:04 [deanallemang]
http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/CorePresentations/State_of_SW/
14:01:18 [deanallemang]
(repeated for Susie's benefit)
14:03:05 [leobard]
WE NEED GUIS
14:03:21 [MartinD]
--- RDF(S): a solid spec from 2004, many tools available (listed on W3C wiki) -> 22+ triplestores, 14+ libraries for several prg. languages
14:04:44 [LeeF]
leobard: specific GUIs or general GUIs?
14:04:47 [MartinD]
= essentially, anybody can start developing RDF(S) apps today!
14:04:52 [LeeF]
s/leobard:/leobard,
14:07:28 [MartinD]
--- SPARQL: querying support almost there, W3C recommendation expected in Dec 2007(?); a number of endpoints exists (sending a query over HTTP GET, receive result in XML/JSON) + big data stores already offer SPARQL endpoint!
14:08:38 [MartinD]
= lang. has some powerful, expressive capabilities (e.g. CONSTRUCT support), which can also be used as not only a querying engine but also a transformation engine (ivan showing an example)
14:09:46 [MartinD]
--> a query can be given URI, which can then be included in any other (even remote) SPARQL endpoint to daisychain several data stores, etc. (emphasize this feature a bit more?)
14:11:24 [MartinD]
= some features in SPARQL are still missing, things that cannot be done in 1.0 (e.g. control the entailment regime, modify triple store, querying collections gets complicated, aggregations like counts, max, etc. are also tricky)
14:16:01 [MartinD]
--- large datasets: accumulating and growing (e.g. IgentaConnect 200M triples, US COngress 25M triples, Geonames 6M geo triples, RDF book mashup, DBpedia, and many more) --> please provide more information, if you know about these things, about the data sets, public, private, etc. = some impressive numbers showing the potential of the technology
14:17:00 [MartinD]
= send input to Ivan, esp. on *really* large and really *realistic* data sets :-)
14:17:44 [MartinD]
= what is large (25M is a small-scale effort for bio and life science people, right?) :-)
14:18:05 [Tom]
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14:18:19 [MartinD]
ACTION: maybe SWEO should focus in the future on getting these numbers
14:19:40 [MartinD]
--- Linking Open Data Prj: expose data sets in RDF, link data from diff. data sets and use SPARQL to query across this distributed space of resources (so far, around 2B triples served @ Aug 2007)
14:21:31 [MartinD]
--> example data source: DBpedia = a community effort to extract structured info from wikipedia ('infobox') and turn them into RDF
14:25:17 [MartinD]
--- SKOS (simple knowledge organization system): its goal is to represent and share classifications, glossaries, thesauri, etc. --> currently on the path to become a W3C recommendation by summer 2008 (?)
14:26:28 [MartinD]
= motivation here is to get more traditional data (e.g. thesauri) into the RDF/OWL world --> SKOS provides infrastructure, vocabulary to make these 'translation' structured, ...
14:27:40 [MartinD]
= some examples of SKOS expressivity are in http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/CorePresentations/State_of_SW/HTML/img21.html
14:29:05 [MartinD]
= the point of it is really for SKOS to act as a bridge to digital libraries, which means a huge amount of data (in extent of several billions) getting to be linked to the SW (soon)
14:30:55 [MartinD]
(we need to speed it up at this point, due to the agenda)
14:34:43 [MartinD]
--- OWL and ontologies: a WG on revising OWL just started......
14:35:22 [Susie]
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14:36:11 [kidehen]
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14:36:37 [MartinD]
--- GRDDL: a good progress towards recommendation, helping with micro-formats and exposing their data as RDF via GRDDL engine --> from the messaging viewpoint, this is the way how to get in an easy way data that are produced anyway, and expose them via simple (GRDDL) hooks to the RDF world
14:37:17 [MartinD]
= e.g. for business reporting, this is an important point to make data RDF accessible
14:38:47 [MartinD]
--- RDF/a concentrating on XHTML with some additional attribute sugar that would add/link to the RDF data, which can subsequently be used by RDF/a engine --> big advantage is that unlike with microformats in general, RDF/a enables linking *numerous* different RDF data sets (FOAF, geo, etc etc
14:39:10 [MartinD]
= on a good path to become W3C recommendation by April 2008 (?)
14:39:12 [LeeF]
s/RDF/a/RDFa
14:39:44 [LeeF]
- 20 minute break -
14:39:50 [MartinD]
Ivan concludes (for now)
14:43:01 [MartinD]
topic: Education and Outreach for New Technologies (POWDER, GRDDL, RDFa, SPARQL, SKOS)
14:47:07 [MartinD]
*BTW. THERE IS AN OPEN INVITATION TO JOIN THE DINNER AT CAMBRIDGE BREWING COMPANY (1 KENDALL SQ, CAMBRIDGE): http://www.google.com/maps?hl=en&output=search&q=Cambridge+Brewing+Co+Inc&fb=1&near=Cambridge,+MA&cd=1
14:47:11 [MartinD]
*
14:50:28 [Dunja]
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14:53:16 [kidehen]
LeeF: we are in one of the rooms where the gatherings are held, right? As I am about to set off etc..
14:53:33 [ghard]
262
14:53:40 [ghard]
Suite 262 the vid conf room.
14:53:50 [kidehen]
k
14:53:56 [ghard]
There's a "secret" staircase leading here somewhere.
14:54:13 [ghard]
Just type "plugh" :)
14:56:22 [kidehen]
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14:58:20 [leobard]
... coffeee break ...
15:02:15 [Zakim]
+Kai_
15:03:41 [MartinD]
TOPIC: (a) Kai Scheppe & POWDER
15:05:58 [leobard]
tom: Kai talks at the moment on the phone
15:06:17 [MartinD]
- Kai (Deutsche Telekom) talking about POWDER, a project to establish techniques for labelling web resources expressing trust, reliability, etc. by means of annotating the web pages to which these points apply
15:06:24 [leobard]
tom: kai talks about powder, and it may be good to phone in, as he is only remotely on the meeting
15:06:46 [MartinD]
= POWDER --> protocol for web decsription of resources
15:06:48 [Ralph]
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15:07:27 [Zakim]
+??P37
15:07:39 [Ralph]
zakim, Ralph has arrived in mit262
15:07:39 [Zakim]
+Ralph; got it
15:07:47 [Ralph]
+TomB
15:08:25 [MartinD]
= currently, based on RDF, where one can include info like who did it, when, pointers to other resources, content,... which in turn, enables making inferences about the underlying resources
15:10:06 [MartinD]
= not only to fulfill obligations re descriptions of web resources, but also enable users to aggregate content, mash-up based on some specific criteria, etc. (e.g. in the context of child protection, where one can express points like 'white listing' vs. 'black listing' and express it by pointing to the description of the resource content)
15:10:21 [MartinD]
Q: ideas about how SWEO can help w.r.t. POWDER?
15:10:52 [danja]
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15:10:59 [MartinD]
= communicate that there is something like POWDER; i.e. technology, which is not necessarily visible to the outside world, but can be very useful for many users
15:11:42 [MartinD]
ACTION: Ivan includes/extends his set of info slides with the POWDER information
15:11:59 [Ralph]
q+ to note general POWDER use cases
15:12:22 [MartinD]
ACTION: add POWDER into SWEO fact sheet + FAQ-s to spread the word around
15:13:44 [Ralph]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:13:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MIT262, Kai_, TomB
15:13:45 [Zakim]
MIT262 has Susie, Uldi, Philip, Ashworth, David, Probost, Uldis, MartinD, Ivan, Dean, Alemang, Leo, Orri, Iryana, Karen, Ralph
15:14:58 [Ralph]
{I supposed Leo and @@ are present by virtue of the videoconf system)
15:15:13 [MartinD]
= POWDER is good as it enables authors or content managers to express a claim ("my doc is about..."), claims usually need some form of verification (socially or formally) --> e.g., some guidelines, steps need to be followed to express the content suitability for mobile device, if an author expresses that s/he followed these guidelines, the content can be machine-tested for compliance and the...
15:15:14 [MartinD]
...outcome may be made available to end user
15:15:28 [Ralph]
zakim, EricP just arrived in mit262
15:15:28 [Zakim]
+EricP; got it
15:15:58 [ivan]
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15:17:19 [MartinD]
= POWDER is for describing web content and these descriptions are not visible to humans --> SWEO may perhaps help to work it out how to make users aware that there is some form of description behind a resource... maybe a case study on this?
15:18:07 [ericP]
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15:18:14 [MartinD]
ACTION: Consider a use case / business case where POWDER-based descriptions are used (e.g. in the apps of DT's partners/customers?)
15:18:25 [ericP]
i wonder who is lined up for consumers of the data
15:19:55 [MartinD]
= what about POWDER capabilities w.r.t. post-certification content checking? --> indirectly, a description may have an expiration date, but there is not really a support for CRC and similar 'hard' content guarantee
15:21:41 [Susie]
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15:23:24 [MartinD]
= Ralph points to additional facets of POWDER -- e.g. related to FAQ: how do I find content related to a particular web site that has some meta data in it (pointing to additional docs, such as images,...) --> what POWDER supports to some extent is the capability enabling the web server to state that 'there is some more information about a resource with a given URI'
15:24:19 [MartinD]
= POWDER also support a function to group resources by
15:24:22 [ivan]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-grouping/ Powder grouping document
15:25:39 [MartinD]
= Orri says we might be looking in more detail into the capability to integrate this with search engines, to support groupings, etc.
15:26:42 [ivan]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-dr Powder document
15:27:09 [MartinD]
*note on FAQ/fact sheet revision*: could everybody who talks about their technologies consider checking the FAQs and maybe come up with some specific questions they need to address (or may even have answers to)
15:27:52 [MartinD]
ACTION: Susie sends the FAQ doc around for reviewing...
15:28:49 [Karen]
q+
15:29:05 [ivan]
ack Ralph
15:29:05 [Zakim]
Ralph, you wanted to note general POWDER use cases
15:30:38 [Ralph]
q+ to ask about search engine deployment
15:30:45 [ivan]
ack karen
15:31:00 [ivan]
q+
15:31:20 [MartinD]
= Karen asks who is the audience potentially benefiting from messaging related to POWDER --> content providers benefit from a new tool to tell more details about their content (tap into such mechanisms as social networks, certifications, etc. -- each of these needs a better description of what is in it); another group include marketing people who need to better establish the target for a...
15:31:21 [MartinD]
...particular product, tool, content, etc
15:33:15 [MartinD]
= Ralph asks about the expectations to include these web descriptions into search engines --> maybe premature to make big speeches on this, but it is in the pipeline as an enriched output from search engines = potential implementation supporting the W3C recommendation procedure
15:33:22 [ivan]
ack ivan
15:33:31 [Zakim]
Ralph, you wanted to ask about search engine deployment
15:33:32 [ivan]
ack ralph
15:33:41 [MartinD]
kai concludes...
15:34:37 [Zakim]
-Kai_
15:35:10 [MartinD]
TOPIC (b) Tom Baker: SKOS (in a bit more detail)
15:39:02 [MartinD]
- SWEO role in SKOS work and promotion --> a possibility is to add info on SKOS into our fact sheet/FAQ, also good is to have a strong business case for using SKOS (some existing ones already refer to SKOS, but more would great)
15:41:15 [MartinD]
--- Tom can contribute with specific messaging materials re SKOS, these can be discussed in more depth in a telecon..
15:41:53 [Ralph]
q+ to suggest (a reference to) SKOS might appear in the answer to " Does one have to understand the theory of formal ontologies and logic to use the Semantic Web?"
15:42:07 [leobard]
thesauri people may use skos....
15:42:45 [MartinD]
--- in terms of use cases, we already have a case from FAO that is making use of SKOS; the point of our list of use cases are things that *already* have been deployed, that are running, that have some user base
15:43:30 [MartinD]
--- maybe Tom can point us to people or communities using, needing this kind of work (librarians, thesauri people,...)
15:43:36 [leobard]
regards skos: wikipedia lists some organizations that used skos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKOS#Applications
15:44:22 [Tom]
q+
15:44:36 [ivan]
ack ralph
15:44:36 [Zakim]
Ralph, you wanted to suggest (a reference to) SKOS might appear in the answer to " Does one have to understand the theory of formal ontologies and logic to use the Semantic Web?"
15:45:35 [MartinD]
--- maybe SKOS is a good example showing that one does need to become ontology specialist and hard core logician to actually make some use of semantic statements, linking, etc. = a good foot in the door to open up the technology to non-techie people?
15:46:41 [leobard]
melli: should we focus on "search" when we talk about skos?
15:46:55 [Ralph]
see, e.g., "-> http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-ucr/#UC-Aims Use Case #3 Semantic search service across mapped multilingual thesauri in the agriculture domain
15:46:57 [MartinD]
--- should we highlight search as a potential functionality where SKOS may show as useful and as a functionality acknowledged by the SWEO as an area were SWT may be useful
15:47:43 [IvanHerman]
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15:47:57 [ericP]
Susie, can i get a quick show of hands for CBC just before lunch? i need to get back to their manager about our likely numbers and times
15:48:19 [deanallemang]
ericP, Is that for dinner or just drinks?
15:48:23 [IvanHerman]
q+
15:48:29 [IvanHerman]
ack tomb
15:48:43 [MartinD]
--- Tom emphasizes that e.g. librarians speak a completely different language than SW techies, so SKOS is indeed a form of translating SWT for this audience (e.g. Dublin Core,...)
15:49:19 [deanallemang]
Most of the people who ask me about search are interested in google-like content searching - does SKOS actually provide any assistance for that kind of use?
15:49:51 [ericP]
deanallemang, both
15:49:56 [IvanHerman]
-> http://www.bl.uk/services/bibliographic/meeting.html report of the meeting Tom is just talking about
15:50:02 [MartinD]
--> e.g. a new work on Resource Description they do in the context of RDA, most of these (new) vocabularies are expressed as SKOS-compatible, so they can be reused by semantic apps, sparql endpoints,.....
15:50:14 [IvanHerman]
-> http://www.collectionscanada.ca/jsc/rda.html RDA page
15:50:25 [ericP]
deanallemang, it's a brew pub that serves food. you can mix and match to suite your needs
15:50:38 [IvanHerman]
q?
15:51:25 [MartinD]
= essentially, SKOS is good at translating, exposing what is already there done by the librarians on their annotation standards -- this is mainly about expressing their standards in the way accessible (also) to the SWT community
15:51:45 [LeeF]
ack IvanHerman
15:52:28 [MartinD]
--- are there already tangible results among people who are trying to use SKOS to organize, structure the tags in various apps (flickr and things like that) = an obvious area, but not sure how much is done in the area
15:52:39 [Tom]
Alistair's tutorial at DC2007: http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/public/ajm65/dc2007/tutorial.pdf
15:53:38 [MartinD]
--- SKOS might be also a lightweight way to align and relate different formal ontologies and data sets (e.g. in the life science domain)
15:54:58 [MartinD]
= a good use case on describing tag ontologies or aligning them using SKOS might be a good opportunity to promote the technology?
15:58:24 [kidehen]
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15:59:45 [MartinD]
TOPIC: (c) Ralph Swick on RDFa
16:00:28 [deanallemang]
How do I put myself on the speaker queue?
16:00:37 [UldisB]
-- Uldis: there re existing tag ontologies in RDF, can be useful to look how they relate to / can be used with SKOS
16:00:45 [LeeF]
you type 'q+' (without the quotes)
16:00:49 [deanallemang]
q+
16:00:51 [MartinD]
- one possibility would be to link the work on RDFa and GRDDL; SWEO may consider RDFa as a specific GRDDL transform
16:01:26 [kidehen]
Ivan: is it okay for me to bring Fred in with me?
16:01:35 [UldisB]
Uldis to send pointers to those to the list
16:02:07 [MartinD]
--- w.r.t. extracting RDF info from microformats is already present in GRDDL, so then one may move to showing the link between RDFa and microformats = vocabularies may have different shapes, etc.
16:02:51 [Susie]
Kingsley: that'd be OK.
16:03:42 [danja]
(UldisB, Richard Newman's tag ontology is defined from SKOS terms http://www.holygoat.co.uk/projects/tags/ )
16:04:25 [MartinD]
--- who's an expected audience for using RDFa; it's not trivial to bring in RDF triples into HTML via RDFa, whereas the transform to XML seems to be easier, so this is an important targeting question.... ivan points that there was a fairly strong push against RDF/XML, so this might be a specific situation causing issues for Dean
16:05:50 [bengee]
q+
16:06:03 [MartinD]
= essentially, the answer here is the people who are learning HTML and to whom RDFa gives opportunity to include "a little bit more"; but in general there are some difficulties in HTML authoring tools in general, not mentioning what happens if we extend them with some support for RDFa.... :-)
16:06:38 [deanallemang]
Q-
16:06:59 [Susie]
q?
16:07:13 [MartinD]
= the expectations from HTML people is that they want to stick to HTML, so how can people who learn HTML get quickly exposed to RDF world (via RDFa)
16:07:27 [kidehen]
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16:08:25 [Dunja]
Dunja has joined #SWEO
16:08:28 [MartinD]
= Benjamin suggests an interesting use case in terms of replacing RDF.XML dump with a RDFa dump/transform... which is more human-readible, (for free) provides the opportunity to browse the RDF graph = no need to parse language these people are not comfortable with?
16:09:32 [danja]
Operator I believe is getting/has some support for RDFa - but is anyone talking to the browser vendors?
16:09:44 [MartinD]
(this may require some change in spec, because the return format for e.g. SPARQL standard is based on RDF/XML serialization, but in practice, tools actually support many different serializations, so the suggestion might be realistic)
16:11:30 [danja]
(I don't think SPARQL is based on RDF/XML)
16:12:02 [leobard]
q+
16:12:14 [leobard]
I would go back to the topic of target audience
16:12:26 [MartinD]
= in other words, RDFa may be an alternative serialization (about 80-90%) of what RDF semantic model actually contain == this may help us to deliver the key message that RDF as a model is totally independent from RDF/XML as *one* of its serializations, so the RDFa direction sounds positive
16:12:31 [bengee]
the sparql protocol spec mentions conneg (e.g. to get turtle instead of rdf/xml)
16:12:50 [Ralph]
q+ to address Benjee's point about validation
16:13:04 [bengee]
ack bengee
16:13:15 [MartinD]
ack leobard
16:14:29 [MartinD]
--- Leo suggests producing some tutorials focusing on particular audiences (e.g. people programming WorldPress, Facebook, etc. plugins), so we may actually aim at those as potential intermediaries to promote RDFa
16:15:24 [Ralph]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-scenarios/ RDFa Use Cases
16:15:45 [Ralph]
q?
16:16:13 [kidehen]
q+
16:16:38 [MartinD]
= currently, we don't have detailed knowledge of this audience, but some communities that already work/play with RDFa --> people who do some annotations (e.g. in bioinformatics, health,...), these are usually lay people, who don't really care about what they annotate their materials in, so RDFa may be a more accessible vocabulary for annotation..
16:16:41 [Ralph]
q+
16:17:01 [Ralph]
q+ to address community
16:17:22 [fgiasson]
fgiasson has joined #sweo
16:17:25 [deanallemang]
q?
16:17:32 [UldisB]
http://kantenwerk.org/2007/07/30/shift-binaries-for-download/
16:17:35 [MartinD]
= also bloggers is a good target, as they are (usually) happy to put additional information into their pages..
16:18:05 [UldisB]
tools by Knud, a colleague of mine, one of them for producing RDFa from desktop data
16:18:44 [deanallemang]
Knud was the fellow I mentioned earlier, whom I encouraged to make his output in RDFa - I am glad to hear that he has done that (at the time, he was not enthusiastic)
16:18:48 [MartinD]
= another possibility would to target the browsers as tools exposing the RDF content, so that makes it tool (browser) developers) and content/blog publishers
16:19:15 [kidehen]
leobard: hi
16:19:46 [UldisB]
deanallemang: i thought so. :) we were using RDF/XML at that time, but you were successful in making him "convert" to RDFa
16:20:24 [deanallemang]
Uldis: I need to download his tools, and see if I can do the things I wanted to do last year (and failed) in RDFa
16:20:57 [kidehen]
leobard: publishing tools vendors, application developers
16:21:07 [MartinD]
= Ralph also says that it is good to target those who promote the use of microformat = rather than inventing new ad-hoc features for microformats, one may go for RDFa and just add a specific relations, etc. there (in hopefully a simpler way)
16:24:52 [MartinD]
ACTION: SWEO would keep pressure on the RDFa working group to provide some content, which might be included in our FAQs, etc.
16:25:03 [UldisB]
we need to have the same active community for RDFa as there is for microformats
16:25:18 [MartinD]
TOPIC: Eric & Lee on SPARQL outreach ideas
16:25:24 [UldisB]
was mentioned when talking about a RDFa community
16:26:47 [MartinD]
- SPARQL is a tool that has not been conceived as an end itself, it's means to get to the actual content (RDF) --> what kind of outreach is then needed/wanted for this query language --> maybe to present it in a similar manner as SQL?
16:27:13 [UldisB]
re. FAQ entry for RDFa - we need to know what are the unique things that RDFa has benefits over microformats - things that can not be done (easily or at all) with the latter
16:30:05 [MartinD]
--- there is a similar work from the past = XQuery --> this has been more or less adopted into products.... Orri agrees that basically all data store vendors support XQuery, which works with docs having some structure, etc.; another thing done by vendors is creating queries on virtual XML docs, etc. but there is no significant evidence that XQuery is at the heart of some specific success...
16:30:06 [MartinD]
...story in DB world
16:31:12 [kidehen]
q+
16:31:38 [MartinD]
--- whereas SPARQL is not something that necessarily is embedded in SQL; the role SPARQL should take is that of a top-level query language for finding and joining data from a large and heterogenous data sets (so in this sense, it is more comparable with SQL than things like XQuery)
16:31:56 [Zakim]
Ralph, you wanted to address community
16:32:59 [MartinD]
= the question really is how to deliver the message that SPARQL is *really* something suitable as a high-level QL
16:34:05 [MartinD]
= Kingsley says that two things helped to push SQL: ODBC API and substrate (reporting tools), which we are (to some extent) pushing in the context of SWT (and SWEO)?
16:34:26 [kidehen]
MartinD: ODBC the substrate
16:34:48 [kidehen]
MartinD: Report Writers (now BI) and Query Tools atop the substrate
16:35:08 [kidehen]
q+
16:35:11 [Karen]
q+
16:36:29 [MartinD]
= Ivan says that a particular data model has certain (preferred) ways to query it, one can imagine querying RDF in SQL, but actually, the native way is via triples, so this might point toward the need to have this (RDF-native) language as well
16:37:17 [LeeF]
ack kidehen
16:37:38 [MartinD]
= probably no major need to promote SPARQL to the developers and RDF people, as far as high-level query language, this might be worthwhile to push a bit more clearly
16:37:41 [Zakim]
-TomB
16:38:35 [MartinD]
Kingsley suggest to start building an "ecosystem of tools" around SPARQL in a similar way as happened for SQL (see the points on ODBC API and tools building upon this API)
16:38:38 [deanallemang]
q?
16:38:57 [Susie]
ack Karen
16:39:54 [MartinD]
Karen emphasizes that SQL is often used as a reference point for "querying (in general)"; so one useful need may be to present the need of a different kind of querying, which in turn would then lead toward SPARQL as a high-level alternative for data querying
16:41:38 [UldisB]
off to lunch
16:41:48 [MartinD]
(note: Break for a lunch and a break from typing)
16:44:48 [ghard]
ghard has joined #sweo
16:45:10 [ghard]
leobard: I'm Yrjänä
16:45:44 [ghard]
Yes
16:45:59 [ghard]
We'll try to get the Adam meeting arranged with Ivan.
16:46:07 [bengee]
cool
16:46:08 [leobard]
venue is?
16:46:16 [ghard]
That's the big question...
16:46:22 [leobard]
low-cost would be good.
16:46:29 [leobard]
I probably have to pay my travel
16:46:34 [ghard]
We wanted to check with people from UvA
16:46:45 [bengee]
'k
16:49:37 [ghard]
please add yourself to list at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HollandSemanticWebGatherings if you're intending to attend.
16:49:49 [ghard]
Lunch...
17:11:01 [ghard]
ghard has joined #sweo
17:12:48 [kidehen]
kidehen has joined #sweo
17:13:23 [fgiasson]
fgiasson has joined #sweo
17:14:39 [danja]
danja has joined #sweo
17:25:44 [deanallemang]
deanallemang has joined #SWEO
17:31:24 [deanallemang]
q?
17:34:37 [MartinD]
MartinD has joined #SWEO
17:36:08 [Zakim]
+??P0
17:36:19 [danja]
Zakim, ??P0 is danja
17:36:19 [Zakim]
+danja; got it
17:37:55 [danja]
Zakim, mute me
17:37:55 [Zakim]
danja should now be muted
17:42:39 [fgiasson]
fgiasson has joined #sweo
17:45:36 [MartinD]
(note: we are slowly re-starting the session)
17:46:20 [MartinD]
TOPIC: Karen Myers on SWEO messaging
17:46:43 [ghard]
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17:47:24 [MartinD]
- Karen will touch on what people actually say about SWT and some more things
17:48:07 [danja]
nooo Zakim
17:48:10 [danja]
q-
17:50:05 [LeeF]
Are these slides on the Web anywhere?
17:50:20 [MartinD]
--- with new cool technologies, there is always an issue of how to send a message to the audience beyond the developers about that coolness = examples, support in interpreting the technology, etc. (Karen talks about a few examples of how this can be approached using some preview technologies)
17:51:30 [danja]
(coldfusion, bluetooth)
17:52:18 [kidehen]
kidehen has joined #sweo
17:52:48 [Susie]
Karen presents on Semantic Web marketing.
17:53:05 [MartinD]
--- disruptive technologies require new language, putting those developing / spreading the technologies into the shoes of the potential users
17:53:24 [UldisB]
Bluetooth - was a disruptive tech & also a paradigm shift
17:54:39 [ericP]
q+ to ask about outsourcing
17:55:43 [MartinD]
--- we need to get to the point of having suitable, crisp messages about SWT that we can use to get the message out there, but we still need these on different levels of complexity
17:55:51 [danja]
(can't hear ericP very well)
17:56:03 [UldisB]
eric - may be good to outsource marketing to get the message out
17:57:50 [LeeF]
ack ericP
17:57:50 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to ask about outsourcing
17:59:20 [MartinD]
--- there is still a substantial bias of SWEO on technologies and technologists, although these people have interest in outreach and marketing (to certain extent), but would it be useful to get more marketing people on board?
18:00:47 [MartinD]
= the reason why we have so few marketing people is perhaps due to maturity of the technology, so far SWT didn't make it onto the rader screens of those marketing depts
18:01:31 [UldisB]
we also did specifically not ask for marketing people
18:01:44 [MartinD]
= more of a product is actually needed, more ideas about the actual added value needs to be gathered as well
18:02:05 [UldisB]
given a choice companies would probably appoint techies (who grok this stuff at a deeper level)
18:03:15 [danja]
Zakim, mute me
18:03:15 [Zakim]
danja was already muted, danja
18:04:26 [ghard]
q?
18:07:17 [Zakim]
-danja
18:07:32 [MartinD]
= one issue we have that we get interest from W3C members (incl. companies), but these tend to send in their technology reps rather than marketing people... so one (partial) issue might be in pitching the offer of something like SWEO to the W3C members
18:09:29 [fgiasson]
fgiasson has joined #sweo
18:11:37 [MartinD]
--- so we have basically 3 key audiences: developers/techies, IT management, and business level (product mgt, strategists,...)
18:14:36 [MartinD]
--- on the enterprise side, there is still not enough developers who would be able to deliver on the technologies, should the business decide to adopt and try the (new, SW) technology
18:15:34 [danja]
danja has joined #sweo
18:17:16 [ericP]
Susie, i need to head to novartis to prep for RdfRDB. is my sparql persona still useful? ('course LeeF is still here anyways)
18:17:23 [Zakim]
+??P0
18:17:39 [danja]
Zakim, ??P0 is danja
18:17:39 [Zakim]
+danja; got it
18:17:53 [danja]
Zakim, mute me
18:17:53 [Zakim]
danja should now be muted
18:18:23 [UldisB]
-- companies need to see how a particular business problem of theirs can be solved by SWT
18:19:23 [UldisB]
-- when they build a pilot to try it out then they start to "get it"
18:19:37 [MartinD]
--- to date SWEO managed to gather (reasonably) enough materials in the form of use cases, which can be used as a support for discussing SWT related issues, opportunities,...
18:21:03 [MartinD]
--- media started using the "web 3.0" label, which is not exactly the favoured option of the W3C and the community...
18:22:34 [fgiasson]
fgiasson has joined #sweo
18:22:48 [MartinD]
--- web 3.0 is not a fortunate label, to some extent it is an effect of previously allowing web 2.0 as a shorthand for the social, dynamic web technologies
18:23:53 [UldisB]
one thing where Web 3.0 is good is if trying to avoid the word "semantic"
18:24:01 [UldisB]
which scares the people away
18:24:20 [danja]
+1 to "Web of Data" style of branding (in addition to semweb)
18:24:22 [MartinD]
--- the point is that the phrase "semantic" also causes problems; it has certain negative connotations, wrong associations, ect
18:24:25 [UldisB]
and is also mis-heard by people as Symantec
18:25:59 [UldisB]
danja: do regular people "resonate" with the "Web of Data"?
18:26:30 [ghard]
smart web?
18:26:31 [danja]
(Jason Calacanis claimed the "official" version of Web 3.0 - a direct match for his own product)
18:26:52 [MartinD]
---> note: there is a clash between using articles "the" and "a" in connection with ' ' Semantic Web
18:26:56 [danja]
!!!!
18:28:58 [danja]
(also Semantic Web technologies vs. Semantic Web The Vision)
18:29:55 [MartinD]
--- an interesting domain (which has been little / poorly targeted by us) is the rich media (digital music) = this might be the first real adopter for SWT = see the previous chat we had w.r.t. POWDER as an opportunity to attach / associate additional content -- e.g. what else, interests, reviews,.... with the human-understandable content -- music, movie, news story,......)
18:31:07 [MartinD]
--- consideration of presenting SW as a "web of data" = generalization, extension of "web of documents" + "web of people"
18:31:23 [UldisB]
tell not how it works, but what it will do for them
18:31:44 [ghard]
"Smarter web" ;)
18:32:41 [UldisB]
"Smart(er) Web"++
18:33:26 [danja]
sounds better than "marginally less stupid web")
18:33:51 [MartinD]
--- regarding the articles... might be better to talk about semantically enabled web and similarly, rather than "the Semantic Web", which may suggest, there is a single collection of items (like 'the Web')
18:34:16 [MartinD]
--- so applications of SWT in companies =/= 'the' Semantic Web, right?
18:34:33 [UldisB]
--- when you get web technologies and apply them in an enterprise you get some entirely different values
18:34:53 [UldisB]
re. SemWeb vs. SWT
18:35:21 [danja]
SWT deployment a necessary precursor of SW...
18:38:46 [UldisB]
danja: some argue that when companies use SWT that's not SemWeb as such as it is not on the web
18:38:59 [danja]
WS-* has soured the well a little in /apparently/ offering what semweb offers
18:39:31 [danja]
UldisB, I think I'd argue that too :-)
18:40:25 [danja]
the whole blogging thing demonstrated that there was a lot further to go with the document web than anyone expected...
18:40:47 [UldisB]
danja: using SWT when talking w. enterprises can be better that a generic semweb vision
18:40:59 [UldisB]
s/that/than
18:41:02 [danja]
yup
18:41:50 [UldisB]
helps get he messages more clear
18:42:10 [danja]
Report: 7 Out Of 10 Americans Experience 'Search Engine Fatigue'
18:42:20 [danja]
http://searchengineland.com/071023-093541.php
18:42:25 [UldisB]
--- infromation overload
18:42:57 [UldisB]
--- Karen: info overload is one of the things we can play on
18:43:18 [danja]
sorry -which domain?
18:45:58 [MartinD]
--- GoPubMed project might be a good candidate to approach in terms of showing how SWT extends and complements classic search = i.e. to address people's classic point on "...but Google's done it already..."
18:46:04 [UldisB]
danja: you're on the phone?
18:46:05 [leobard]
danja: ping
18:46:11 [danja]
Zakim, unmute me
18:46:11 [Zakim]
danja should no longer be muted
18:47:35 [danja]
ok
18:57:16 [MartinD]
--- it's important to cover not only (or especially not) conferences and events that are already about SWT
18:58:01 [MartinD]
--- the point is to go vertical as well, targeting specialist events (digital libraries, biology, financials, etc etc etc)
18:58:37 [MartinD]
=> importance of having (a) a pool of speakers and (b) a pool of unified, simple messages to communicate with
18:58:38 [danja]
production of audio/video resources may help?
18:59:14 [MartinD]
=> informatin like use cases or ivan's overview of the field are examples of items from such a pool
19:00:41 [danja]
no rush
19:01:12 [danja]
"metabooth" - I love it
19:01:30 [MartinD]
--- SWEO was invited to contribute to Wiltshire Sem. Technologies event.... incl. a booth for outreach, discounts for participants,... (taking place in San Jose, May 2008)
19:04:10 [UldisB]
metabooth++ :)
19:04:36 [MartinD]
--- more focus on users, consultants = which tools, for what, how to use them, why, why not (might be a good rationale for the next IG/XG?)
19:07:22 [MartinD]
--- there is a wiki with technologies, commercial products, etc. = available publicly, but we need to be careful about gathering (justified or not justified) comments, experiences (and critical evaluations) about the products of the members (i.e. specific companies)
19:09:26 [danja]
ok, InfoGathering task's job is to gather material (and perhaps present them)
19:09:28 [UldisB]
Danny talking on preferred documen t collection
19:09:39 [UldisB]
stems from the info-gathering ask
19:09:46 [danja]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/SweoIG/TaskForces/InfoGathering
19:09:51 [leobard]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/SweoIG/TaskForces/InfoGathering/RecommendedTutorials
19:09:59 [danja]
but turns out to be very time consuming
19:10:36 [UldisB]
--- suggestion was to get a recommended tutorials list together
19:10:59 [UldisB]
--- talking w. Tom Heath re. using revyu for annotating and providing recommendations
19:11:20 [UldisB]
danja took an action for gathering together an initial list
19:11:52 [UldisB]
tagging could be v. useful when coming to audience targeting
19:12:13 [UldisB]
--- currently is: beg / intermed / advanced classification
19:12:39 [danja]
http://tinyurl.com/yobv9t
19:12:53 [danja]
http://danja.talis.com/tutorials-howto.html
19:13:18 [ivan]
ivan has joined #sweo
19:13:43 [UldisB]
--- danja's tinyurl is a live query for these materials
19:14:44 [UldisB]
--- Susie: what's the main thing you're looking for
19:15:03 [UldisB]
--- recommendations, what are good or relevant materials
19:15:04 [fgiasson]
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19:15:13 [UldisB]
--- also how to filter it, and how to present it
19:16:07 [bengee]
cool stuff, danja!
19:16:12 [danja]
sorry - can't hear very well
19:16:14 [UldisB]
action: to continue this discussion on the mailing list and future SWEO telcos
19:16:50 [UldisB]
--- Martin: REASE repository can be a useful source of info
19:17:37 [danja]
btw, hot off the press from Kanzaki: http://www.kanzaki.com/works/2007/misc/thisweek-sw
19:17:40 [UldisB]
--- REASE distinguishes 2 different audiences, and does ranking based on the popularity
19:18:02 [danja]
"This Week's SemWeb" as linked data - note use of Genre
19:18:07 [UldisB]
--- Q (by Ivan): will this go on when we are not around any more
19:18:40 [UldisB]
there have been efforts previously that have been collecting links, but those repositories have vanished / staled when they stopped work
19:19:54 [UldisB]
--- Leo: re. continuity - there are 2 companies interested in continuing REASE. but we only need REASE for 2 weeks to do ranking
19:19:55 [danja]
tricky problem, it's data that updates in real time
19:21:00 [danja]
kidehen++
19:21:05 [UldisB]
--- Ivan: how can we make sure this resource is alive and being updated. static HTML won't do.
19:21:21 [danja]
keyword: distributed..?
19:22:11 [UldisB]
--- Susie: need a list of resources that's good today and will be there for a year at least. can do manual annotation /ranking first (eg, on a wiki), to get there quickly
19:22:27 [danja]
presentation on wiki isn't good for newcomers
19:23:17 [danja]
has moin got non-scrapy output?
19:23:29 [UldisB]
--- Leo: do you want business people to look at a wiki?
19:23:36 [danja]
mediawiki++
19:24:07 [UldisB]
danja: i've heard people not being too happy w. mediawiki. it's popular, al right.
19:24:13 [UldisB]
i like moinmoin :)
19:24:32 [danja]
Uldis, ah ok - but what about data-out?
19:24:55 [UldisB]
danja: we can build that.
19:25:04 [danja]
Uldis, cool
19:25:18 [UldisB]
python's better to code in than php, moinmoin is very nicely OO
19:25:36 [ghard]
Have grappa
19:25:45 [UldisB]
but W3C is moving to a mediawiki, as i understand, so it's a question if we need to look at moinmoin or not
19:25:45 [danja]
heh - only got beer m'fraid
19:26:00 [danja]
UldisB +1 to python rather than php
19:26:19 [danja]
moin -> RDF; RDF -> mediawiki?
19:26:44 [Zakim]
-danja
19:32:21 [fgiasson]
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19:35:30 [Ralph]
Ralph has left #sweo
19:36:30 [ghard]
next topic: use cases and case studies collected. Ivan discussing.
19:36:54 [fgiasson]
fgiasson has joined #sweo
19:37:55 [kidehen_]
kidehen_ has joined #sweo
19:38:21 [ghard]
use case categories should be reviewed
19:39:18 [Susie]
Use cases are at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/sweo/public/UseCases/
19:39:34 [UldisB]
19:39:55 [ghard]
Information on which technologies are used needed in the use cases
19:41:20 [ghard]
make collective read of use cases and define which tech used in which
19:42:38 [ghard]
Use cases used by people not from their original target group
19:43:03 [ghard]
Problem with complicity
19:43:14 [ghard]
s/complicity/complexity
19:43:51 [UldisB]
- how detailed do we want this information?
19:45:19 [ghard]
We could start collecting and categorizing the cases from different points of view. Developers, etc.
19:47:43 [ghard]
More focus on why current technologies cannot do what we're demonstrating?
19:48:36 [Karen]
q+
19:48:46 [ghard]
Cannot always look in the gift horse's mouth re. use cases received.
19:50:32 [ghard]
A mechanism to easily submit new cases is needed.
19:51:12 [ghard]
Plus some sort of template.
19:51:20 [ghard]
Key benefits, etc.
19:54:28 [ghard]
Contact information in the use case template: Ivan left them out to protect from SPAM. CAPTHA could be used, but it's complicated. Shouldn't have them in public without concent.
19:54:34 [ghard]
s/concent/consent
19:57:26 [fgiasson]
fgiasson has joined #sweo
20:00:03 [IanJ]
IanJ has joined #sweo
20:00:19 [ghard]
Short (2 sentence) quote could be added as an optional item in the template.
20:01:13 [UldisB]
action: make a template for use cases/ case studies - Susie, Ivan
20:01:38 [UldisB]
"if you have questions, contact Ivan" - add to the template
20:02:13 [LeeF]
q?
20:02:17 [LeeF]
ack karen
20:02:20 [Susie]
Ian: Please do join the call.
20:02:30 [IanJ]
zakim, what's the code?
20:02:30 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7936 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), IanJ
20:02:47 [Zakim]
+Ian
20:03:25 [UldisB]
The Future of SWEO (with the W3C Comm Team) - Ian Jacobs
20:06:54 [UldisB]
Ian's in the comm team, valuable input to SWEO.
20:07:22 [UldisB]
q: how'd he be interested to work with SWEO in future, ...
20:07:35 [UldisB]
--- "listen up, here's how it's gonna be" :)
20:08:30 [UldisB]
--- Ian's main goal - to find where comm team's involvement in needed, appropriate, at the right time
20:08:51 [UldisB]
--- useful division b/w branding materials and communication materials
20:10:21 [UldisB]
--- use cases - comm team interested in being aware of them.
20:10:45 [UldisB]
no need for more intense involvement. can provide feedback.
20:11:40 [UldisB]
--- anything that does w3c branding need to be co-developed with the comm team
20:12:45 [Karen]
q+
20:14:13 [UldisB]
Karen: re. conferences and ways to get messages out. how comm team works on sponsorship, etc. getting messages to analysts, etc.
20:14:28 [UldisB]
Karen recaps on what she talked about earlier
20:14:43 [UldisB]
--- did not go into w3c comm team's role
20:15:36 [IanJ]
w3t-pr
20:16:12 [UldisB]
--- can use w3t-pr if there are events that need attention to be paid to
20:16:48 [UldisB]
--- r.e sponsorship - some requirements. typically a contract b/w conference and w3c.
20:16:53 [Susie]
Interesting conferences are posted at: http://esw.w3.org/topic/SweoIG/TaskForces/Conferences
20:17:23 [UldisB]
--- w3t-pr is the place to request that - w3c sponsorship or endorsement
20:17:56 [UldisB]
--- tpically asks for some benefits to w3c members, eg, discounts for members
20:19:04 [UldisB]
--- Susie: we have lists of interesting conferences. including verticals like lifesciences. db conferences (vldb).
20:19:31 [UldisB]
--- Susie: been semi-active aggregating this info.
20:21:00 [UldisB]
--- ivan has quite some experience with organising slide-sets
20:21:23 [UldisB]
--- goal was that offices would re-use them for their presentations. but there was not that much reuse.
20:21:43 [UldisB]
--- difficult to use slide-sets prepared by someone else
20:22:40 [UldisB]
--- Susie: creating a library of graphics, which people could mix and match
20:23:18 [UldisB]
library of graphics - a good idea
20:24:21 [UldisB]
--- Susie: re. earlier POWDER discussion. about "Mobile OK" label.
20:24:33 [UldisB]
--- Ian: have mobile-ok logos ready to go
20:26:05 [LeeF]
ack
20:26:08 [LeeF]
ack karen
20:26:32 [LeeF]
+2s/ack/<something much more eloquent than 'ack'/
20:28:43 [UldisB]
is it re. semweb logo?
20:30:11 [UldisB]
--- re. licenses - community knows CC
20:30:23 [UldisB]
--- also get aditional publicity out of CC search tools
20:31:47 [UldisB]
Ian to send attribution info to Ivan, to be added into the SVG files
20:33:36 [UldisB]
--- Ian: what are the next steps for SWEO that the comm team should be aware of?
20:33:42 [IanJ]
+1 to testimonials as part of use cases
20:35:14 [UldisB]
--- ivan: re team of presenters that w3c could use for events
20:36:11 [UldisB]
--- ian: would like to develop a matrix of messages, topics and audiences
20:36:49 [IanJ]
q+ to talk about tutorials
20:37:36 [UldisB]
--- ian: w3c redesigning large portions of the w3c site. going well & is exciting.
20:37:57 [UldisB]
--- - one of ideas to provide a lot more content, eg, re semweb
20:39:41 [UldisB]
--- - how to manage all that information? wiki? need to generate useful, "normally looking" pages from it.
20:40:07 [IanJ]
s/hearing/tolerating/
20:42:10 [UldisB]
--- ian: w3 site as a reputation aggregator.
20:42:28 [UldisB]
that's in lie with our info-gathering work
20:42:39 [UldisB]
s/lie/line (damn keyboard)
20:44:11 [UldisB]
--- ian: not aware of too many groups _rnking_ things. there are people listing things. may want to involve more of a community into the discussion.
20:46:32 [Zakim]
-Ian
20:46:34 [IanJ]
thanks all!
20:48:03 [UldisB]
could someone else scribe?
20:48:12 [Karen]
YEs
20:48:19 [UldisB]
thanks :)
20:48:39 [Karen]
Ivan: Would be difficult to plan too much more between now and end of Charter
20:48:51 [Karen]
...used to be SW Best Practices Deployment WG
20:48:58 [Karen]
...came out after OWL was published
20:49:03 [Karen]
...has a vague and general charter
20:49:11 [Karen]
...clear that most output was technical work
20:49:24 [Karen]
...notes on how to express RDF, OWL, set up server, etc.
20:49:36 [Karen]
...at end of charter decision made to break that group into two
20:49:46 [Karen]
...the Deployment Group and SWEO
20:49:52 [Karen]
...DG does SKOS
20:49:56 [Karen]
...and RDFa
20:50:05 [Karen]
...don't really do materials
20:50:21 [Karen]
...document that Leo co-authored, "Cool URIs"
20:50:38 [Karen]
...probably fit better in Deployment Group, but we're happy to have it in SWEO
20:50:51 [Karen]
...any rechartering needs to look at both groups
20:51:08 [Karen]
...Deployment is about to finish RDFa in spring 2008
20:51:14 [Karen]
...SKOS needs more work
20:51:30 [Karen]
...If we take two charters together, there is a need for documents and deliverables like Leo's
20:51:45 [Karen]
...the community needs things like "Cool URIs"
20:51:49 [Karen]
...it's more of an expert document
20:51:58 [Karen]
...does not include anything technical and new
20:52:11 [Karen]
...just give an explanation of things that community would have difficulty doing
20:52:17 [Karen]
...clearly a need for more things like this
20:52:25 [Karen]
...not weight and size of SKOS
20:52:46 [Karen]
...also a need for [not sure where boundary is] the "marketing" and outreach things
20:53:02 [Karen]
...very difficult to get the "marketing" people to participate in W3C IG
20:53:09 [Karen]
...should we go into writing tutorials?
20:53:19 [Karen]
...I'm opening up the questions and issues
20:53:34 [Karen]
...then the real "marketing" things like the logos
20:53:54 [Karen]
...lesson learned was to introduce to CommTeam sooner to collaborate
20:54:18 [Karen]
...we may have spent more time and energy on logo and brochure than needed
20:54:37 [Karen]
...do we have a group that does more "marketing" work, or does CommTeam do it?
20:55:00 [Karen]
...it probably would not work right now for CommTeam because they don't have the resources
20:55:23 [Karen]
...Perhaps CommTeam dedicates a resource
20:56:01 [Karen]
...And, we need to assess what the community needs
20:56:13 [Karen]
...Ivan opens it up to SWEO to discuss
20:56:19 [Karen]
Leo: In next weeks, finish things
20:56:30 [Karen]
...she wants to finish flier in next two to three weeks
20:56:35 [Karen]
Ivan: Absolutely
20:56:44 [Karen]
...properly finish what we have started
20:56:54 [Karen]
...Dunja, tutorials, etc.
20:57:04 [Karen]
...make a good job on what we have
20:57:12 [Karen]
..."feature freeze"
20:57:31 [Karen]
...Sorry to those who have joined now
20:57:50 [Karen]
...Holidays are coming up, too
20:58:03 [Karen]
Susie: Let's clarify what exact date in February 2008
20:58:18 [Karen]
...I agree with Ivan to wrap up what we have started
20:58:34 [Karen]
Ivan: 31st of January
20:58:42 [Karen]
...if we want to extend for one or two months, we can do that
20:59:07 [Karen]
Susie: End of January 2008 should be realistic
20:59:37 [Karen]
Ivan: We have some other charters that have to be renewed that may have higher priority first
20:59:44 [Karen]
...RIF for example
20:59:58 [Karen]
...I cannot promise that a new charter would go out at end of January
21:00:04 [IanJ]
IanJ has left #sweo
21:00:13 [Karen]
...HCLS new charter also has to be developed
21:00:40 [Karen]
Susie: Appreciate time commitments since I'm in both
21:00:46 [Karen]
Ivan: So what can be done
21:00:57 [Karen]
Susie: We don't have to have all the answers today
21:01:12 [Karen]
Ivan: Not decide today, no, but let's start talking
21:01:22 [Karen]
Leo: We have one idea
21:01:32 [Karen]
...Outreach thing
21:01:51 [Karen]
...In last month, contact companies that want to deploy SW
21:02:02 [Karen]
...take a service, then agree to write a use case
21:02:08 [Karen]
...each person gives away time
21:02:12 [Karen]
Ivan: I have two reactions
21:02:27 [Karen]
...Karen has experience with companies asking for consulting
21:02:38 [Karen]
...with companies coming to W3C
21:02:42 [Karen]
...it's a very tiring job
21:02:51 [Karen]
...Merck meeting was a lot of work
21:03:11 [Karen]
...based on that, it's a question of whether we give free to community
21:03:22 [Karen]
...my reaction is that I would restrict to W3C Members only
21:03:32 [Karen]
...consulting is an expensive service for companies to buy
21:03:53 [Karen]
...but not to just any company; W3C cannot
21:03:54 [Karen]
afford
21:03:56 [Karen]
q+
21:04:06 [Karen]
Susie: Not clear what you mean by consulting
21:04:38 [Karen]
...Oracle has ranges of general education to 1:1 problem solving
21:04:50 [deanallemang]
q?
21:04:54 [deanallemang]
q?
21:05:01 [Karen]
Karen: Clarification?
21:05:08 [Susie]
ack IanJ
21:05:08 [Zakim]
IanJ, you wanted to talk about tutorials
21:05:13 [Karen]
Leo: Possibly a two-hour call with big companies that are interested
21:05:18 [Karen]
...we know the good links
21:05:23 [Karen]
...a gold mine of information
21:05:32 [Karen]
...in a two-hour phone call we could cover a lot of information
21:05:45 [Karen]
...idea is to restrict to W3C Members is good
21:05:53 [Karen]
...Member benefit value
21:06:12 [Karen]
...We also want to sell products; connect to potential customers
21:06:20 [Karen]
[not for the minutes]
21:06:32 [Karen]
q+
21:06:48 [bengee]
q+
21:08:18 [deanallemang]
q?
21:08:19 [Karen]
Karen: perhaps a Webinar panel
21:08:29 [Karen]
...MWI did this
21:08:35 [Karen]
Ivan: Whom do we contact?
21:08:47 [Karen]
Karen: Philipp Hoschka
21:08:59 [Karen]
ACTION Karen: get information on Webinar
21:09:14 [Karen]
ack bengee
21:09:20 [Karen]
ack Karen
21:09:31 [Karen]
Bengee: Focus on ideas that last beyond SWEO
21:09:44 [Karen]
...such as tagging high quality tutorials, collection of tools
21:10:01 [Karen]
...focus on outreach to the community
21:10:13 [Karen]
...Community projects are another example
21:10:23 [Karen]
...could have a longer-term effect
21:10:53 [Karen]
...like tutorials collection, script that DannyA demonstrated
21:11:17 [Karen]
Susie: yes, how to expend our remaining resources
21:11:32 [Karen]
Bengee: Make it visible so it can be used and available
21:11:49 [Karen]
Meli: General comment
21:12:03 [Karen]
...what we have seen in terms of technology getting adopted
21:12:13 [Karen]
...we referred throughout the day to this
21:12:28 [Karen]
...tutorials, documents are viewed from "how to use"
21:12:45 [Karen]
...how do we actually do data integration at a detailed level?
21:13:12 [Karen]
...for example, I spoke with someone who described a problem; asked specific "how to" questions
21:13:20 [MartinD]
q+
21:13:22 [Karen]
...one, people don't know how to go about it
21:13:35 [Karen]
...information is not yet at level of detail for a developer
21:13:40 [Karen]
...tools are not mature enough
21:13:51 [Karen]
...not focused enough on specific problem-solving
21:14:01 [Karen]
...we don't know why there aren't more tools
21:14:16 [Karen]
...Oracle expects to partner with companies that make tools
21:14:31 [Karen]
...we tend to direct to companies like Top Quadrant
21:14:38 [Karen]
Ivan: I see there is a missing this/that
21:14:55 [Karen]
...is it the job or W3C to do this; to fill these gaps?
21:15:15 [Karen]
...W3C's POV is it's the business world that does this; develops tools
21:15:24 [Karen]
...W3C doesn't want to take away business
21:15:38 [Karen]
Dean: Yes, I agree with you
21:16:05 [Karen]
Leo: You are asking more the question, "where are the tools?
21:16:15 [Karen]
Melli: I agree it's not W3C's charter to do these things
21:16:30 [Karen]
Ivan: What can W3C do to get more companies to do that?
21:16:35 [Karen]
Dean: Encourage the industry
21:16:44 [Karen]
Ivan: If there are things we can do to help, then yes
21:16:56 [Karen]
Susie: We should identify the gaps and critical approaches
21:17:04 [Karen]
Melli: ID gaps, why they are there
21:17:13 [Karen]
...why did some companies go out of business
21:17:37 [Karen]
Dean: Low hanging fruit is to get OWL Lite right; more industrial relevant
21:17:53 [Karen]
Ivan: From our POV, when OWL 1.1 came in; goal is to fill that gap
21:18:05 [Karen]
Melli: That's one gap
21:18:28 [Karen]
Ivan: It could be job of SWEO to look at where the missing features are
21:18:40 [Karen]
...you who are out there in business see the gaps more
21:18:45 [Karen]
Martin: To the business point
21:18:46 [deanallemang]
q?
21:18:51 [Karen]
...not provide solutions
21:18:57 [Karen]
ack MartinD
21:19:37 [Karen]
...would like to see more systematic way to approach it
21:19:52 [Karen]
Ivan: a bit like the questionnaire, but more interactive and targeted to the tool providers and producers
21:20:00 [Karen]
...who see where limitations are
21:20:06 [Karen]
Martin: Medium; choose audience
21:20:11 [Karen]
...like product management level
21:20:29 [Karen]
...relates to Web seminars
21:20:49 [Karen]
...about 15 minutes to the point to ask the right questions
21:20:59 [Karen]
...link to come [videolectures.net]
21:21:01 [UldisB]
q+
21:21:06 [deanallemang]
q?
21:21:25 [Karen]
[] Reflects my journey; no one to ask; bewilderment
21:21:44 [Karen]
...some think it's a dead end; it's not all there yet
21:21:55 [MartinD]
this is the link related to the interviews I mentioned earlier as a potential medium to solicit those gaps, ideas, needs, etc: http://videolectures.net/site/list/interviews/
21:21:57 [Karen]
...a shock for me; when I started reading, it was hard to follow the path
21:22:00 [LeeF]
+4s/[]/Phil
21:22:05 [Karen]
...I hit walls; wasn't expecting that
21:22:17 [Karen]
...nice to have known it wasn't the "be all end all"
21:22:26 [Karen]
Ivan: I said "feature freeze"
21:22:29 [Karen]
...raising one thing here
21:22:35 [Karen]
...look at set of tools on the wiki
21:22:44 [Karen]
...one way to start doing this, is try to look at what tools can do
21:23:02 [Karen]
...and use in a way to explain what the tools solve currently, and what they don't
21:23:20 [Karen]
...like looking at use cases; material is there, but not properly catalogued
21:23:25 [Karen]
...maybe next group
21:23:44 [Karen]
...you have quite a lot of tools, but some have no continuation, so it may be counter-productive
21:23:52 [Karen]
...instead look at problems I want to solve
21:24:04 [Karen]
...and acknowledge when there is no tool yet available
21:24:15 [Karen]
Uldis: One thing is about the logo
21:24:22 [Karen]
...I ran it by another irc community
21:24:28 [Karen]
...comments were mainly design question
21:24:41 [Karen]
...is there a version for dark [reverse] background
21:24:46 [Karen]
...is there a black and white version of the logo
21:24:52 [Karen]
...useful for printed materials
21:24:58 [Karen]
Susie: Tech ribbons can be changed
21:25:03 [Karen]
...colors of cube are fixed
21:25:19 [Karen]
...if changing colors is a big thing, we should tell Ian
21:25:40 [Karen]
...have to be wary of others who may use different colors or cube
21:25:48 [Karen]
Ivan: We would need CommTeam input on this
21:25:56 [Karen]
...let Ian run with it
21:26:05 [Karen]
Uldis: maybe some white area for reverse
21:26:37 [Karen]
...other thing, longer perspective, is W3C doing any outreach in virtual worlds like SecondLife?
21:26:47 [Karen]
Ivan: some discussion at W3C in SecondLife
21:26:52 [Karen]
...I don't know much more
21:27:02 [Karen]
...as a person, I don't like the idea of it
21:27:08 [Karen]
[laughs]
21:27:20 [Karen]
Susie: why don't you want an avitar
21:27:25 [Karen]
Ivan: over beer
21:27:55 [Karen]
Uldis: not a W3C island
21:28:00 [Karen]
...but maybe some information center
21:28:13 [Karen]
Ivan: I know the Web conference of 2008 is thinking about this
21:28:16 [Karen]
q+
21:28:22 [Karen]
ack Uldis
21:28:29 [Karen]
...I'm surprised to see researchers
21:29:36 [Karen]
Karen: CommTeam would be open to talking more
21:29:48 [Karen]
Uldis: I would want some help with specific messages
21:30:01 [Karen]
Martin: We don't want to do academic research
21:30:11 [Karen]
...possible dissemination
21:30:21 [Karen]
...repetition in these projects
21:30:39 [Karen]
...knowledge systems and ontologies; possibly an additional audience
21:30:53 [Karen]
...perhaps they can commit to recognized activities
21:31:10 [Karen]
Ivan: I think this would be very difficult; dynamics of EU projects are very challengin
21:31:43 [Karen]
We say goodbye to Leo and Bengee
21:32:29 [Karen]
[Ivan notes that teleconferencing has worked well today]
21:33:14 [Karen]
Meeting adjourned
21:33:31 [Karen]
RRSAgent, please generate minutes
21:33:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-sweo-minutes.html Karen
21:34:17 [UldisB]
thanks all
21:35:50 [MartinD]
MartinD has left #SWEO
21:36:39 [leobard]
there is pictures of the meeting
21:36:39 [leobard]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leobard/sets/72157602674669812/
21:37:02 [Karen]
Karen has left #sweo
21:42:07 [danja]
danja has joined #sweo
21:42:45 [danja]
danja has left #sweo
21:51:26 [Zakim]
-MIT262
21:51:27 [Zakim]
SW_SWEO(f2f)8:30AM has ended
21:51:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were Susie, Uldis, Philip, Ashworth, David, Probost, MartinD, Ivan, Karen, Uldi, Dean, Alemang, Leo, Orri, Iryana, Kai_, TomB, Ralph, EricP, danja, Ian