IRC log of owl on 2007-10-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:47:51 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:47:51 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-irc
16:47:53 [trackbot-ng]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:47:54 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #owl
16:47:56 [trackbot-ng]: Zakim, this will be OWLWG
16:47:56 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot-ng; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
16:47:58 [trackbot-ng]: Meeting: Web Ontology Language (OWL) Working Group Teleconference
16:48:00 [trackbot-ng]: Date: 24 October 2007
16:48:44 [vit]: vit has joined #owl
16:50:58 [Rinke]: Rinke has joined #owl
16:51:07 [jjc]: jjc has joined #owl
16:51:19 [jjc]: hello
16:51:47 [sandro]: Hey, Jeremy.
16:52:06 [Zakim]: SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started
16:52:13 [Zakim]: + +1.312.052.aaaa
16:52:32 [Zakim]: +Sandro
16:53:09 [Rinke]: Zakim, aaaa is Rinke
16:53:09 [Zakim]: +Rinke; got it
16:55:22 [Zakim]: + +49.351.4.aabb
16:55:25 [Zakim]: -Rinke
16:55:52 [Carsten]: Zakim, aabb is Carsten
16:55:52 [Zakim]: +Carsten; got it
16:56:07 [Zakim]: +Rinke
16:56:12 [TommieMeyer]: TommieMeyer has joined #owl
16:56:13 [Carsten]: zakim, mute me
16:56:13 [Zakim]: Carsten should now be muted
16:56:20 [MikeSmith]: MikeSmith has joined #owl
16:57:20 [Zakim]: +Ian
16:57:45 [Elisa]: Elisa has joined #owl
16:57:49 [Zakim]: +MikeSmith
16:58:05 [Zakim]: + +012736aacc
16:58:11 [pfps]: pfps has joined #owl
16:58:16 [JeremyCarroll]: Zakim, aacc is me
16:58:16 [Zakim]: +JeremyCarroll; got it
16:58:27 [bmotik]: bmotik has joined #owl
16:58:33 [Zakim]: +??P5
16:58:47 [bijan]: zakim, ??P5 is me
16:58:47 [Zakim]: +bijan; got it
16:58:49 [Zakim]: +??P10
16:58:58 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
16:58:58 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
16:59:02 [Zakim]: +Elisa_Kendall
16:59:04 [vit]: Zakim, ??P10 is me
16:59:04 [Zakim]: +??P38
16:59:05 [Zakim]: +vit; got it
16:59:11 [Ratnesh]: Ratnesh has joined #owl
16:59:17 [bmotik]: Zakim, ??P38 is bmotik
16:59:17 [Zakim]: +bmotik; got it
16:59:25 [bmotik]: Zakim, mute me
16:59:25 [Zakim]: bmotik should now be muted
16:59:41 [Zakim]: +??P39
16:59:43 [sandro]: scribe: Elisa
16:59:48 [alanr]: alanr has joined #owl
16:59:50 [pfps]: zakim, ??p39 is me
16:59:50 [Zakim]: +pfps; got it
17:00:04 [FabienG]: FabienG has joined #owl
17:00:05 [sandro]: RRSAgent, make minutes
17:00:05 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-minutes.html sandro
17:00:27 [Zakim]: +Vipul_Kashyap
17:00:31 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:00:32 [Zakim]: +??P41
17:00:34 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, ??P41
17:00:50 [Zakim]: +Alan
17:01:09 [TommieMeyer]: Zakim, ??p41 is me
17:01:09 [Zakim]: +TommieMeyer; got it
17:01:11 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
17:01:20 [alanr]: alanr has joined #owl
17:01:23 [Zakim]: +??P29
17:01:44 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:44 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, TommieMeyer
17:01:46 [alanr_]: alanr_ has joined #owl
17:01:48 [Zakim]: ... (muted), Alan, [IBM], ??P29 (muted)
17:01:51 [Zakim]: +??P45
17:01:56 [achille]: achille has joined #owl
17:02:03 [Zakim]: + +1.603.897.aadd
17:02:07 [uli]: zakim, ??P29 is me
17:02:07 [Zakim]: +uli; got it
17:02:23 [Zakim]: +??P46
17:02:26 [sandro]: Zakim, IBM is temporarily Achelle
17:02:26 [Zakim]: +Achelle; got it
17:02:40 [MarkusK]: MarkusK has joined #owl
17:02:43 [dlm]: dlm has joined #owl
17:03:02 [achille]: sandro, it is Achille - not AchElle.
17:03:17 [sandro]: Zakim, Achelle is Achille
17:03:17 [Zakim]: +Achille; got it
17:03:28 [sandro]: Sorry, Achille!
17:03:32 [achille]: no problem
17:03:36 [Zakim]: +??P2
17:03:38 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the call?
17:03:38 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, TommieMeyer
17:03:40 [Zakim]: ... (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), ??P45, +1.603.897.aadd, ??P46, ??P2
17:03:55 [ew]: ew has joined #owl
17:04:24 [dlm]: deborah mcguinness also just joined on the phone (and irc)
17:04:43 [pfps]: zakim, mute me
17:04:43 [Zakim]: pfps should now be muted
17:04:45 [vipul]: vipul has joined #owl
17:04:51 [sandro]: present on unknown phone lines: Ratnesh Sahay (DERI), Zhe Wu (Oracle), and Bernardo Cuenca Grau (UM)
17:05:07 [Zakim]: +Evan_Wallace
17:05:32 [JeffP]: JeffP has joined #owl
17:05:35 [Zakim]: +GiorgosStoilos
17:05:43 [sandro]: Zakim, aadd is Zhe_Wu
17:05:43 [Zakim]: +Zhe_Wu; got it
17:05:53 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:05:53 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), Vipul_Kashyap,
17:05:57 [Zakim]: ... TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), ??P45, Zhe_Wu, ??P46, ??P2, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos
17:06:04 [GiorgosStoilos]: GiorgosStoilos has joined #OWL
17:06:51 [Zakim]: +JeffP
17:07:10 [Zakim]: +FabienG
17:07:24 [dlm]: how can i check what p i am?
17:07:28 [bmotik]: bmotik has joined #owl
17:07:55 [Zakim]: -??P46
17:08:30 [bmotik]: bmotik has joined #owl
17:08:37 [sandro]: Zakim, ??P2 is Deborah
17:08:37 [Zakim]: +Deborah; got it
17:08:41 [sandro]: q-
17:08:54 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the call?
17:08:54 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), Vipul_Kashyap,
17:08:57 [Zakim]: ... TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), ??P45, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG
17:09:09 [bernardo]: bernardo has joined #owl
17:09:28 [sandro]: Zakim, ??P45 is Bernardo
17:09:28 [Zakim]: +Bernardo; got it
17:09:54 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the call?
17:09:54 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke, Ian, MikeSmith, JeremyCarroll (muted), bijan (muted), vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), Vipul_Kashyap,
17:09:57 [Zakim]: ... TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, Achille, uli (muted), Bernardo, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG
17:11:07 [Zakim]: +??P35
17:11:26 [sandro]: Zakim, ??P35 is Ratnesh
17:11:26 [Zakim]: +Ratnesh; got it
17:11:43 [alanr]: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.10.24/Agenda
17:12:39 [sandro]: Topic: Approval of Minutes
17:13:07 [Zakim]: -Vipul_Kashyap
17:13:21 [alanr]: not: RESOLVED: Our first working drafts, to be published before the 3-month heartbeat, will be one: (1) Structural Specification, (2) Semantics. We may include (3) RDF Mapping in this list. These are based on the text for each of these at http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/
17:13:40 [Elisa]: Resolved: based on email discussions, this issue is reopened at this meeting
17:13:41 [sandro]: RRSAgent, pointer?
17:13:41 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-irc#T17-13-41
17:14:16 [sandro]: Topic: Wiki
17:14:29 [Elisa]: Resolved: accept minutes of meeting 10/24/2007
17:14:42 [pfps]: q+
17:14:48 [pfps]: zakim, unmute me
17:14:48 [Zakim]: pfps should no longer be muted
17:15:02 [sandro]: q- ??P2
17:15:06 [sandro]: ack pfps
17:15:22 [Elisa]: Peter: with regard to ACTION 1 from last week, will need this resolved in the near future
17:15:34 [Elisa]: How can we transition this to the wiki if this isn't resolved
17:15:47 [Elisa]: Sandro: action 1 is the log-ins?
17:15:50 [Elisa]: Peter: yest
17:16:19 [Elisa]: while we can redirect links, but we can't merge at this point
17:16:35 [Elisa]: strategy may be to rename accounts, use open id
17:17:03 [Elisa]: if the history is attributed to your old login name rather than new, that may not be a big issue
17:17:16 [MarkusK]: Regrets: SkypeOut is broken (in Germany? worldwide?), my regrets for this telco.
17:17:37 [Elisa]: Peter: it probably isn't too much of a problem if my inputs are split over two logins
17:18:09 [Elisa]: Everyone can create logins with new names, since nothing has been edited yet
17:18:24 [Elisa]: Sandro: maybe W3C logins are the proper logins to use
17:18:38 [Elisa]: Alan: let's take this up this week and try to resolve it
17:19:02 [pfps]: ok, but I'm not going to wait to get the "right" login to start doing things then
17:19:06 [Elisa]: Ian: there are more people on the call than have accounts on the wiki; everyone needs to create a wiki account
17:19:26 [Zakim]: +Vipul_Kashyap
17:19:42 [sandro]: ACTION: Alan to send e-mail reminding and instructing people to make Wiki accounts
17:19:43 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-4 - Send e-mail reminding and instructing people to make Wiki accounts [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-10-31].
17:19:56 [pfps]: zakim, mute me
17:19:56 [Zakim]: pfps should now be muted
17:20:06 [Elisa]: agendum Front Page
17:20:28 [Elisa]: Alan: the front page should represent consensus of what we all think it should be and what W3C would
17:20:32 [Elisa]: like it to be
17:20:46 [vipul]: q+
17:20:58 [sandro]: ack vipul
17:20:59 [Elisa]: If someone wants to change the front page, they should send a request to the chairs and they will
17:21:02 [JeremyCarroll]: +1 to prposal
17:21:06 [Elisa]: address it accordingly
17:21:14 [bmotik]: +1 to proposal
17:21:22 [Rinke]: +1 to proposal
17:21:30 [TommieMeyer]: +1 to proposal
17:21:38 [CarstenLutz]: +1 proposal
17:21:38 [Elisa]: Vipul: why is it a bad idea for anyone to add what they want (not disagreeing with guidelines, just asking)
17:22:01 [Elisa]: when something is approved or disapproved, some sort of reasons should be given, and an alternative proposed
17:22:05 [uli]: +1 to proposal
17:22:19 [vit]: +1 to proposal
17:22:27 [Elisa]: Alan: we should add these to the agenda and discuss
17:22:41 [Ratnesh]: +1
17:22:55 [Elisa]: I'm in favor of taking a wiki approach, that said, what does it mean to be as permissive as possible
17:23:04 [pfps]: +1 to proposal, as accidents can end up making it hard to find things (yes you can go to the history, but ...)
17:23:22 [Elisa]: we should develop a set of policies that everyone can live with, but the front page may be special -
17:23:48 [Elisa]: the front page may need to look a certain way depending on W3C policies, etc.
17:24:05 [Elisa]: Vipul: I agree with what you're saying but this should evolve over time
17:24:29 [Elisa]: Addition to agenda for next meeting to discuss further
17:24:47 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:24:47 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:24:59 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:24:59 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:25:03 [Elisa]: Bijan pointed out Michelle's table from use cases
17:25:15 [alanr]: q?
17:25:19 [Elisa]: Alan: any other comments on this proposal?
17:25:20 [achille]: +1 for the proposal
17:25:43 [alanr]: PROPOSED: Edits to the Front Page should be vetted by WG chairs
17:26:01 [Elisa]: Alan: Resolved: Edits to Front Page should be vetted by WG chairs
17:26:07 [alanr]: Should there be a functional requirements section with links on the front page. proposed by Vipul
17:26:11 [alanr]: for next agenda
17:26:14 [bijan]: Blog post with Dumontier table: http://clarkparsia.com/weblog/2007/06/18/two-interesting-quotes/
17:26:26 [bijan]: The original paper: http://webont.org/owled/2007/PapersPDF/submission_36.pdf
17:26:38 [Elisa]: Vipul will work on functional requirements based on this for next time
17:26:48 [sandro]: Topic: Publication Schedule
17:27:12 [Elisa]: Alan: there was a fair amount of discussion on this topic last week, that we would effectively put the
17:27:32 [Elisa]: current set of documents as a public working draft, sometime before the heartbeat requirement for a public
17:27:46 [Elisa]: working draft, around the 6th or 8th of January
17:28:10 [Elisa]: Subsequently, there was discussion in email regarding both content and process issues
17:28:20 [bijan]: My discussion summary, which alan just recapped: http://www.w3.org/mid/AF17523E-0EAC-41BC-8289-76B763AEFFF1@cs.man.ac.uk
17:28:35 [Elisa]: In light of this, we decided to slow down a bit and reconsider how we should proceed
17:28:38 [alanr]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0170.html
17:28:42 [vipul]: Bijan, is it possible for you to post this link under publications or something on the wiki page?
17:28:51 [vipul]: The paper above
17:29:01 [bijan]: I presume so
17:29:06 [vipul]: Thanks
17:29:06 [bijan]: But I think it's possible for you too :)
17:29:11 [Elisa]: Alan: what we're proposing is that the editing of the 3 docs, whatever comes out of this will be the first draft, but
17:29:26 [vipul]: Well, I just got one change of mine rolled back :)
17:29:28 [Elisa]: we will migrate these to the wiki and effectively, everyone who has an interest in contributing would
17:29:45 [bijan]: That doesn't make me *more* inclined to try :)
17:29:46 [Elisa]: be able to edit them in the wiki and make them our own.
17:29:46 [vipul]: BTW, I noticed that we need a publications/resources tab on the wiki
17:29:55 [vipul]: :) to bijan
17:30:08 [Elisa]: The procedure would be to post an issue to the tracker
17:30:33 [Elisa]: Use pages on the wiki to draft changes, issues will be discussed during meetings and changes made
17:30:39 [Elisa]: based on resolutions
17:30:54 [Elisa]: shortly before or during f2f we will make a decision about publication as first wd
17:31:08 [bmotik_]: bmotik_ has joined #owl
17:31:10 [Elisa]: then sandro will take wiki contents and format back out as draft doc
17:31:27 [JeremyCarroll]: +1 to proposal
17:31:30 [pfps]: q+
17:31:31 [Elisa]: depending on group consensus
17:31:35 [pfps]: zakim, unmute me
17:31:35 [Zakim]: pfps should no longer be muted
17:31:36 [alanr]: q?
17:31:39 [ew]: +1 to proposal
17:31:48 [bmotik_]: \nick bmotik
17:32:00 [Elisa]: Peter: not that it's likely to come to pass, but I'm a bit uneasy about a decision to not publish
17:32:04 [Elisa]: for some period of time
17:32:12 [bijan]: q+
17:32:17 [Elisa]: Alan: it is self-imposed,
17:32:38 [Elisa]: Ian: I wouldn't describe this as a publication black-out - we'll decide before a certain date
17:32:41 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:32:41 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:32:45 [Elisa]: Peter: well shortly before
17:32:50 [alanr]: q?
17:32:52 [dlm]: q+
17:32:56 [sandro]: q- pfps
17:32:57 [alanr]: q- pfps
17:33:02 [sandro]: ack bijan
17:33:12 [Elisa]: Bijan: one thing that caused a lot of difficulty - the proposal was to publish this week, then we
17:33:28 [alanr]: q+
17:33:46 [Elisa]: we might target the F2F instead, and say that's what we're going for, when we feel ready
17:33:49 [sandro]: Bijan: Maybe we should just set a goal for ourselves of trying to publish before the F2F.
17:33:57 [sandro]: ack dlm
17:33:57 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:33:58 [alanr]: q- bijan
17:33:58 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:34:23 [Elisa]: DLM: I was reading some of the email, are we now proposing that we're going to have three docs come out ...
17:34:24 [pfps]: zakim, mute me
17:34:24 [Zakim]: pfps should now be muted
17:34:41 [Elisa]: I want to make sure we don't have something that only theoreticians can read
17:34:55 [sandro]: s/I want/...I want/
17:34:58 [Elisa]: Is the structural specification something we expect to be readable by a broad audience
17:35:03 [Rinke]: zakim, mute me
17:35:03 [Zakim]: Rinke should now be muted
17:35:10 [bijan]: q+
17:35:14 [bmotik]: Many nontheoreticians were able to use and implement OWL 1.1
17:35:33 [Elisa]: Alan: we were trying to triage to see which documents were available for publication first
17:35:43 [bijan]: +1 to bmotik
17:36:04 [Elisa]: The reasoning wasn't to avoid publication of the more readable docs
17:36:31 [Elisa]: We should take the same approach to the other docs, post issues, and publish them when they are ready
17:36:44 [alanr]: q?
17:37:04 [Elisa]: DLM: Now matter how hard we work, we're not going to be able to make the semantics document, for example, readable for a large audience
17:37:15 [IanH]: q?
17:37:22 [Elisa]: we need another document to come out at the same time that is readable by the broader audience
17:37:43 [JeremyCarroll]: +1 to sense of urgency for more readable docs
17:37:49 [Elisa]: Alan: what will the users go to as the ultimate set of docs we produce, and what are the steps in the process
17:38:09 [Elisa]: I think what you're saying is that you want some kind of overview document to be in the first set we publish
17:38:11 [bijan]: There's a queue!
17:38:13 [IanH]: q?
17:38:19 [Elisa]: DLM: yes or something that can take its place
17:38:21 [vipul]: q+
17:38:37 [IanH]: q+
17:38:43 [IanH]: q?
17:38:55 [Elisa]: Alan: it might be confusing to have some version of user docs if there is flux in the set of features discussed
17:39:14 [JeremyCarroll]: q+ to mention requirements
17:39:15 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:39:16 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:39:22 [IanH]: q?
17:39:24 [Elisa]: DLM: But if there isn't something available that is readable, people won't be able to follow what's going on
17:39:28 [alanr]: ack alanr
17:39:40 [sandro]: ack bijan
17:40:03 [Elisa]: Bijan: I'm strongly against this - reasons include that we don't have such a document available for OWL 1.1 yet, although quite a few people
17:40:11 [Elisa]: have been able to comment on what we do have
17:40:29 [Elisa]: There is a limit even with the OWL Guide on who can read it and comment effectively
17:41:05 [Elisa]: Most working groups he has participated in recently publish tech docs first, long before publishing a guide, until the tech docs are farther along
17:41:38 [Elisa]: He doesn't think that other WGs would have a problem with publishing the tech docs well in advance of the guide
17:41:50 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:41:50 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:41:53 [Elisa]: We can deal with some questions in email along the way
17:42:06 [Elisa]: Vipul: I agree with Deborah and disagree with Bijan
17:42:16 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:42:16 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:42:30 [Elisa]: I believe that this depends on who we believe our audience is
17:43:04 [Elisa]: Bijan: I work with end users all the time on various lists, and my primary customer is the end user (people building and using ontologies)
17:43:24 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:43:24 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:43:26 [Elisa]: I want to provide sufficient infrastructure, including tools and documentation, that serves their needs
17:43:38 [bijan]: What?
17:43:42 [bijan]: I didn't say that
17:43:49 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:43:49 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:43:50 [Elisa]: Vipul: this reinforces my claims, because he provides these things to implementors and technical teams
17:43:55 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:43:55 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:44:00 [Elisa]: Alan: he has clarified that this isn't his primary audience
17:44:18 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:44:18 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:44:28 [alanr]: q?
17:44:28 [bijan]: can I clarify?
17:44:31 [Elisa]: Vipul: if you think your end user is someone using OWL, then that's not the same as an end user who is a business user presenting
17:44:32 [alanr]: wait pleae
17:44:42 [Elisa]: this technology to a CIO or business users
17:44:46 [alanr]: bijan use q ?
17:45:14 [bijan]: q+
17:45:17 [sandro]: Rinke, the IRC logging convention in use here has "/me" actions, like you just did, NOT included in the log. So you may want to re-enter that, if you want it in the record.
17:45:26 [alanr]: q?
17:45:28 [Elisa]: I'm in favor of Deborah's position - the first thing in the SW dev lifecycle is to go out and develop use cases (end user use cases rather than technical use cases)
17:45:32 [alanr]: ack vipul
17:45:35 [bmotik]: We had two years of collecting use cases at OWL-ED, as documented in 50+ papers
17:45:44 [IanH]: See survey at http://dme.uma.pt/jcardoso/sw-survey-2007.pdf -- seems that 80% edit OWL using Protege or SWOOP. Guide argument seems predicated on belief that "end users" will look directly at OWL.
17:45:48 [Elisa]: we should bring this issue of use cases forward in the development cycle
17:45:50 [Rinke]: I think the audience differs per document
17:45:52 [ew]: Question for Vipul and Deb: what kind of feedback are you looking for from end users?
17:45:53 [bijan]: Including a panel of industry people
17:46:00 [pfps]: pfps has joined #owl
17:46:03 [bijan]: And a specific HCLS panel
17:46:12 [bijan]: Plus, all this is not remotely normal behavior for a working gorup
17:46:18 [Elisa]: the table Michelle developed is fantastic - we need to do the same thing in [other domains] - we need to give
17:46:28 [bijan]: Plus if we look at the documents deb cites as models, they are not for CIOs
17:46:31 [sandro]: q?
17:46:34 [sandro]: ack IanH
17:46:39 [Elisa]: primacy to the end user
17:46:46 [alanr]: q?
17:47:06 [vipul]: q+
17:47:31 [Elisa]: Ian: it seems to me that alot of this argument in favor of guides, etc. is predicated on the belief that end users will look at OWL; in a way they care less about OWL and more about the editors they use that are based on the standards
17:47:41 [alanr]: q+
17:47:49 [zhe]: zhe has joined #owl
17:47:50 [Elisa]: I believe that the goal is to bring all of these documents into the domain so that we can work on them as soon as possible
17:48:09 [Elisa]: there is an overview document that isn't great but provides some idea of the features which we can point people to
17:48:38 [alanr]: q?
17:48:45 [Elisa]: this whole discussion has drifted quite away from the agenda - if people believe that we should start working on a guide or other doc we should propose an agenda item for that for next week
17:48:52 [sandro]: ack JeremyCarroll
17:48:54 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention requirements
17:50:03 [Elisa]: Jeremy: if the best way to move forward is to propose to create these end user facing documents ...
17:50:09 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:50:09 [Zakim]: bijan was not muted, bijan
17:50:11 [IanH]: q?
17:50:15 [sandro]: ack bijan
17:50:18 [Elisa]: I believe that a requirements document would be useful, but agree with Ian ...
17:50:53 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:50:53 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:51:13 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:51:13 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:51:24 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:51:24 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:51:29 [pfps]: \me can we please move on?
17:51:35 [Elisa]: Vipul: I was attempting to differentiate my view of an end user ...
17:51:39 [ew]: call the question
17:51:54 [Elisa]: Alan: there is broad agreement that we should have good user facing docs
17:52:08 [IanH]: +1 to Peter's (and my) request!
17:52:16 [CarstenLutz]: +1 peter!
17:52:21 [Elisa]: the current procedure doesn't preclude that, but talks about focus on the tech docs and working on them via the wiki
17:52:31 [uli]: +1 to Peter and Ian and to move on
17:52:33 [bmotik]: +1 to peter
17:52:41 [bernardo]: +1 to peter
17:53:03 [JeffP]: q?
17:53:07 [Elisa]: Do you believe that we have adequate support for these user docs (to Deb and Vipul)
17:53:21 [bijan]: It's not clear to me that Deb and Vipul mean the same documents
17:53:30 [Elisa]: Vipul: the issue may be sequencing - we should add this to a future agenda
17:53:33 [bijan]: OWL overview, guide, and references are fairly narrowly targetd
17:54:08 [Elisa]: Alan: do you agree that we can migrate the three proposed tech docs to the wiki as soon as possible, that people can raise issues, etc., and that we
17:54:20 [Elisa]: can move forward to work on these between now and the F2F...
17:54:41 [IanH]: Charter already calls for "Descriptive specification" and "User guide", so clearly we as a group are committed to working on these.
17:54:43 [Elisa]: Vipul: maybe we should consider trying to publish a use cases and requirements document at the same time, which we can
17:54:49 [Elisa]: take up in the next agenda
17:54:59 [pfps]: i'm against delaying documents that are ready to wait for documents that are not
17:55:11 [IanH]: Charter also calls for "Overview"
17:55:16 [Elisa]: DLM: I was pushing much more for the overview than the guide - updating the guide is a massive amount of work
17:55:23 [Rinke]: +1 to peter
17:55:36 [IanH]: q?
17:55:37 [JeremyCarroll]: A FPWD of an overview could just be the new bits for O|WL 1.1 does not to have OWL 1.0 part as well
17:55:48 [Elisa]: my worry is that if the focus is just on the three docs that work on an overview would be relegated to the end of telecons and ultimately wont get addressed
17:55:54 [alanr]: q?
17:55:55 [bijan]: I would like some evidence of this broad user base.
17:56:01 [alanr]: ack vipul
17:56:03 [IanH]: ?q
17:56:07 [alanr]: ack alanr
17:56:17 [bijan]: With these specific complaints
17:56:17 [Elisa]: I'm trying to support a broad user base of scientists and business people who are trying to work with this
17:56:29 [Elisa]: something like an overview is really critical for them
17:56:41 [bmotik]: But nobody doubts that both an overview and a user's guie should be produced by the WG
17:57:24 [uli]: Boris, the question is the order of publication: what goes first/what waits?
17:57:28 [JeremyCarroll]: (I would prefer not to work on user facing docs ... not really my skill set ... but I will cheer someone else on!!)
17:57:43 [Elisa]: Alan: to address the issue of these getting short shrift on the agenda - Ian and Alan are responsible for the agenda, and will make sure it gets appropriate time
17:57:57 [IanH]: q?
17:58:17 [Elisa]: I will take this seriously to make sure that all of the concerns of people in the group are considered
17:58:26 [Rinke]: I'm all for working in parallel
17:58:30 [Elisa]: are there any objections currently to adopting this proposal to the group
17:58:39 [IanH]: PROPOSED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0170.html
17:58:48 [JeremyCarroll]: second
17:59:10 [Rinke]: +1 to proposal
17:59:19 [Elisa]: Alan: objections?
17:59:21 [JeffP]: +1 to proposal
17:59:22 [uli]: +1
17:59:24 [vit]: +1
17:59:26 [TommieMeyer]: +1
17:59:26 [ew]: +1
17:59:27 [bmotik]: +1 to proposal
17:59:27 [GiorgosStoilos]: +1
17:59:28 [pfps]: +1
17:59:30 [bernardo]: +1
17:59:38 [bijan]: +1
17:59:46 [Ratnesh]: +1 to proposal
17:59:53 [MikeSmith]: +1
17:59:55 [sandro]: RRSAgent, make minutes
17:59:55 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-minutes.html sandro
18:00:01 [Elisa]: Alan: this document does not preclude an additional resolution that we would publish another document
18:00:04 [achille]: +1
18:00:05 [Elisa]: on a similar schedule
18:00:10 [vipul]: +1 conditionally to publishing the use cases document on the same schedule
18:00:11 [FabienG]: +1
18:00:13 [bijan]: I don't think jim asbtains
18:00:22 [Elisa]: not hearing any objections, and with one abstention from Jim
18:00:22 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
18:00:22 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
18:00:37 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
18:00:37 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
18:00:47 [Elisa]: He indicated support for the chairs proposal
18:00:49 [JeremyCarroll]: If Jim wants to abstain he can abstrain by e-mail
18:01:13 [IanH]: RESOLVED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0170.html
18:01:27 [pfps]: q+
18:01:28 [Zakim]: -Vipul_Kashyap
18:01:33 [pfps]: zakim, unmute me
18:01:33 [Zakim]: pfps should no longer be muted
18:01:59 [pfps]: these meetings are scheduled for 90 minutes, not 60
18:02:17 [Elisa]: Ian: we should take a quick stab at the next agenda item ... what form these docs are going to take in the wiki or otherwise
18:02:21 [bijan]: I propose we talk about task forces
18:02:35 [bijan]: 1+
18:02:36 [Elisa]: Alan: there seems to be productive discussion on this in the mailing list at this point
18:02:37 [bijan]: er
18:02:38 [bijan]: q+
18:02:47 [JeremyCarroll]: q+
18:03:01 [IanH]: ?q
18:03:08 [Elisa]: Ian: I would like to get this moved forward as quickly as possible so that people can start working on the documents
18:03:10 [IanH]: q?
18:03:22 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
18:03:24 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
18:03:27 [IanH]: ack pfps
18:03:56 [Elisa]: Peter: I would prefer that we keep the meetings to 90 minutes
18:04:07 [bijan]: one solution is shorter agendae
18:04:17 [IanH]: q?
18:04:29 [Elisa]: Alan: there are a number of people that can only attend for 60 minutes, and this is an issue for the entire working group, so we should address it at the next meeting
18:04:31 [IanH]: ack bijan
18:04:32 [sandro]: Alan: Let's talk about meeting length next time.
18:04:37 [pfps]: zakim, mute me
18:04:37 [Zakim]: pfps should now be muted
18:05:09 [Elisa]: Bijan: I'd like to talk about the task forces - and have some guidance about how we are going to proceed with reviews
18:05:34 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
18:05:34 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
18:05:44 [IanH]: ack JeremyCarroll
18:05:48 [sandro]: q- bijan
18:05:51 [sandro]: q?
18:06:16 [Elisa]: Alan: So in between the wiki docs and task forces is the issues list, tracker, and so forth
18:06:20 [bijan]: +1 to talking about the issues list
18:06:29 [JeremyCarroll]: +1 to talking about issues
18:06:30 [Elisa]: should we address those first or skip to the task forces
18:06:31 [pfps]: zakim, umute me
18:06:31 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'umute me', pfps
18:06:41 [JeremyCarroll]: (i will leave in ten mins)
18:06:48 [sandro]: Zakim, unmute pfps
18:06:48 [Zakim]: pfps should no longer be muted
18:07:22 [Elisa]: Peter: I'd like to be able to have something happen before the next telecon - like moving docs to the wiki, or getting the issues list set up, or something
18:07:33 [IanH]: +1 to Peter -- let's get on with it!
18:07:50 [Elisa]: Alan: the last discussion was on how we might mark up the docs
18:07:57 [bijan]: +1 to doing stuff
18:08:18 [Elisa]: Peter: we have documents in html, let's just move them over to the wiki and figure out how to deal with the math tags later
18:08:44 [Elisa]: Alan: when you say html, does that mean wiki vs. html?
18:08:48 [uli]: +1 to Peter
18:08:50 [IanH]: q?
18:09:07 [Elisa]: Sandro: right now the docs are pure html, for math will they use images or what
18:09:26 [bmotik]: the images are used only for the diagrams in the strucutral specification
18:09:34 [bmotik]: All other documents use plain HMTL
18:09:38 [bijan]: +1 to the migration simply and soonly
18:09:39 [Elisa]: Ian: the structural spec uses images, so it would be possible to move the other two over that don't use images, and deal with the images later
18:09:56 [bijan]: How about moving to wiki markup over time?
18:10:09 [bijan]: Some participation and editing is better than none
18:10:10 [Elisa]: Alan: I think use of wiki mark-up is alot cleaner, I'm concerned with broad participation in editing
18:10:21 [sandro]: zakim, list attendees
18:10:21 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been +1.312.052.aaaa, Sandro, Rinke, +49.351.4.aabb, Carsten, MikeSmith, +012736aacc, JeremyCarroll, bijan, Elisa_Kendall, vit, bmotik, pfps,
18:10:25 [bijan]: And we can move over time
18:10:25 [Zakim]: ... Vipul_Kashyap, Alan, TommieMeyer, +1.603.897.aadd, uli, Achille, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, Zhe_Wu, JeffP, FabienG, Deborah, Bernardo, Ratnesh, IanH
18:10:33 [bijan]: if it seems happy
18:10:37 [bijan]: to do so
18:10:38 [alanr]: q?
18:10:39 [Elisa]: there is a converter that seems to do reasonably well, but we should be sure that we can use html if that's not the case
18:11:05 [Elisa]: Sandro: we don't need full html to do the equations ...
18:11:06 [bijan]: It's not
18:11:09 [bijan]: No scripts
18:11:21 [Elisa]: Peter: I would be very surprised if there were scripts
18:11:22 [bmotik]: We are currently using a stylesheet for the fonts in the HTML, and we are using <sub> and <sup>.
18:11:30 [bmotik]: No scripts whatsoever
18:11:46 [Elisa]: Sandro: we would convert to wiki markup but not wiki math - math equations stay in html
18:11:56 [bernardo]: as boris sat=ys, we are just using very simple stuff for the math
18:12:05 [JeremyCarroll]: q+ to suggest doc-by-doc resolution
18:12:13 [bijan]: +1 to math in current html and every else in wiki syntax
18:12:14 [Elisa]: Alan: the complicated stuff is in html, but the uncomplicated stuff goes to wiki markup
18:12:17 [uli]: ace!
18:12:22 [Elisa]: Sandro and I will do this before next week
18:12:46 [bijan]: Isn't this jsut an action?
18:12:55 [bmotik]: We were fairly strict with usage of stylesheets, so this information might be used for migration into Wiki
18:12:58 [bijan]: Do we need a decision per se? Maybe so.
18:13:04 [alanr]: PROPOSED: Documents to be edited using wiki markup facilities, but leave complicated markup in html. Revisit if there are problems. Target: Next TC
18:13:15 [JeremyCarroll]: q-
18:13:16 [bijan]: OK
18:13:19 [bmotik]: "Strict" in the sense that we tried to use them everywhere in the same way
18:13:34 [bmotik]: Zakim, unmute me
18:13:34 [Zakim]: bmotik should no longer be muted
18:13:54 [Zakim]: -JeremyCarroll
18:14:06 [Elisa]: Boris: the important bits of markup in the documents are always in style sheets, so it may be possible to automate the process of migration
18:14:26 [bmotik]: Zakim, mute me
18:14:26 [Zakim]: bmotik should now be muted
18:14:28 [Elisa]: Alan: that's our thought as well; the OWL WG front page was done in a similar way
18:14:33 [Elisa]: Any objections?
18:14:36 [bijan]: Any abstensions?
18:14:46 [alanr]: RESOLVED: Documents to be edited using wiki markup facilities, but leave complicated markup in html. Revisit if there are problems. Target: Next TC
18:15:08 [achille]: I am leaving in one mintute
18:15:21 [IanH]: unmute me
18:15:22 [Elisa]: ACTION: Alan and Sandro will migrate documents to the wiki by the next telecon
18:15:22 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-5 - And Sandro will migrate documents to the wiki by the next telecon [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2007-10-31].
18:15:35 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
18:15:35 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
18:15:46 [pfps]: zakim, mute me
18:15:46 [Zakim]: pfps should now be muted
18:15:47 [Elisa]: agendum Task Forces
18:16:22 [Elisa]: Alan: If we can get one or two of the activities identified for task forces we would be in good shape
18:16:34 [IanH]: q+
18:16:57 [Elisa]: if people can start working on issues related to backwards compatibility audits, for example, they can submit issues, comments
18:17:18 [Elisa]: Bijan: we may want to create wiki pages for this
18:17:25 [IanH]: +1 to poking Jim
18:17:52 [Elisa]: Alan: There are two people that should be involved in this - I'll poke at Jim and Jeremy
18:17:59 [Elisa]: we should define what this means
18:18:18 [Elisa]: As soon as we can start working on test cases against the specs the better as well
18:18:38 [Elisa]: If we can start to create test cases, then a harness that can be run right out of the wiki
18:18:47 [IanH]: q?
18:18:56 [Elisa]: if we can identify people who want to start working on this, that would be good
18:19:11 [Elisa]: Bijan: I can start to send email out to people who might want to work on this
18:19:14 [Zakim]: -Achille
18:19:29 [IanH]: q?
18:19:33 [Elisa]: Alan: We should create a wiki page, and start adding these issues to the wiki
18:19:47 [Elisa]: Sandro: the tracker doesn't support this yet
18:19:56 [alanr]: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed
18:20:01 [Elisa]: On the tracker page -
18:20:11 [IanH]: q?
18:20:28 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
18:20:28 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
18:20:36 [Elisa]: Alan: the last thing i noticed is that the tracker didn't let me enter an issue due to permissions
18:20:37 [JeffP]: q?
18:20:54 [IanH]: q?
18:20:56 [sandro]: ACTION: Sandro to edit http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed to document a REPORTED and ACCEPTED convention on issues
18:20:56 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-6 - Edit http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed to document a REPORTED and ACCEPTED convention on issues [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-10-31].
18:21:09 [bijan]: sandro, the base of <http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/> has group specific text...maybe we can pop some help in?
18:21:15 [Elisa]: Alan: this is just an introduction to get the topic started
18:21:19 [alanr]: q?
18:21:37 [Elisa]: Ian: we skipped over this issue list in order to get to the task forces, but getting the issues and tracker sorted out
18:21:45 [Elisa]: is important to supporting the task forces
18:21:46 [IanH]: ack ianh
18:22:08 [Elisa]: now we're in a position where we may end up with two parallel issues lists
18:22:29 [Elisa]: Alan: my understanding was that we were going to migrate the OWL 1.1 issues to the tracker once it was working
18:22:39 [Elisa]: Ian: so what is the issue with doing that
18:22:44 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
18:22:44 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
18:22:56 [bijan]: q+
18:23:05 [Elisa]: Alan: I think it means someone has to manually do this, so perhaps we should manually move them over once the tracker is up and running
18:23:15 [Elisa]: Ian: ok, we can do this offline, but we need to get to it.
18:23:18 [Elisa]: Alan: agreed
18:23:47 [Rinke]: Is there some way to 'close' the google code page?
18:23:50 [Elisa]: We wanted to have a publicly open place (the google site) for people to enter issues, but that the working group should use the tracker
18:24:07 [Rinke]: (oops)
18:24:26 [Elisa]: Ian: by moving issues to the tracker now, what happens to new issues added to the google site, and what is the status of those that are moved
18:24:35 [pfps]: I note that the tracker requires you to log in, but then doesn't know who you are.
18:24:50 [Elisa]: Alan: they are all reported, and Alan and Ian have to decide how to address those
18:25:10 [sandro]: Indeed, pfps. :-(
18:25:15 [Elisa]: It should be a lower priority to deal with new publicly added issues, but we should decide what to do with them going forward
18:25:34 [bijan]: I can do that, probably
18:25:36 [Elisa]: Ian: it would be a big commitment to continue monitoring the other list and moving issues on an ongoing basis
18:25:40 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the phone?
18:25:40 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sandro, Carsten (muted), Rinke (muted), IanH, MikeSmith, bijan, vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik (muted), pfps (muted), TommieMeyer (muted), Alan, uli (muted),
18:25:44 [Zakim]: ... Bernardo, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG, Ratnesh
18:25:50 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
18:25:50 [Zakim]: bijan was not muted, bijan
18:26:09 [Elisa]: Alan: maybe what we can do is have people monitor this and move them accordingly
18:26:12 [bmotik]: Wouldn't it be simpler to have just one issues list, let eveyone add issues then, but be able to flag different issues appropriately?
18:26:18 [IanH]: Time check?
18:26:22 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
18:26:22 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
18:26:29 [Elisa]: Bijan: maybe we can set it up so that they can be monitored automatically and moved
18:26:33 [sandro]: Attendees: Sandro, Carsten, Rinke, IanH, MikeSmith, bijan, vit, Elisa_Kendall, bmotik, pfps, TommieMeyer, Alan, uli, Bernardo, Zhe_Wu, Deborah, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, JeffP, FabienG, Ratnesh
18:26:35 [bijan]: Ok
18:26:41 [bijan]: yep
18:26:46 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
18:26:46 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
18:26:47 [Elisa]: Alan: we might be taking on more work that we are chartered to do, which I'm reluctant to do right now
18:26:51 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
18:26:51 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
18:27:15 [Elisa]: Ian: just to conclude, the initial action is that we will divvy up the work to manually move these issues
18:27:24 [Elisa]: to the tracker once the tracker is working sufficiently to do so
18:27:36 [Elisa]: Alan: anything else we want to cover at this point
18:27:37 [JeffP]: +1
18:27:42 [bmotik]: Bye
18:27:42 [Zakim]: -GiorgosStoilos
18:27:42 [uli]: bye
18:27:42 [Rinke]: bye
18:27:43 [Elisa]: Alan: move to adjourn
18:27:45 [FabienG]: Bye
18:27:45 [sandro]: Chair: Alan
18:27:45 [Zakim]: -Alan
18:27:45 [ew]: Did Sandro's suggested convention for inserting into tracker get recorded somewhere?
18:27:46 [Zakim]: -JeffP
18:27:47 [Zakim]: -vit
18:27:48 [Elisa]: Ian: second
18:27:48 [Rinke]: -Rinke
18:27:48 [Zakim]: -Carsten
18:27:50 [Zakim]: -IanH
18:27:50 [Zakim]: -uli
18:27:52 [Zakim]: -Zhe_Wu
18:27:53 [Zakim]: -MikeSmith
18:27:54 [Zakim]: -Bernardo
18:27:54 [Zakim]: -pfps
18:27:57 [Zakim]: -Rinke
18:28:01 [Zakim]: -TommieMeyer
18:28:05 [bmotik]: bmotik has left #owl
18:28:13 [bijan]: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Backward_compatibility_audit
18:28:19 [TommieMeyer]: TommieMeyer has left #owl
18:28:20 [alanr]: sandro should have action to modify the http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed to reflect it
18:28:24 [Zakim]: -bijan
18:28:27 [Zakim]: -Deborah
18:28:32 [Zakim]: -bmotik
18:28:58 [ew]: Thanks
18:29:03 [Zakim]: -FabienG
18:29:18 [FabienG]: FabienG has left #owl
18:30:06 [Zakim]: -Evan_Wallace
18:30:08 [Zakim]: -Sandro
18:30:10 [Zakim]: -Elisa_Kendall
18:30:21 [sandro]: RRSAgent, make minutes
18:30:21 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-minutes.html sandro
18:30:26 [Zakim]: -Ratnesh
18:30:27 [Zakim]: SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
18:30:29 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.312.052.aaaa, Sandro, Rinke, +49.351.4.aabb, Carsten, MikeSmith, +012736aacc, JeremyCarroll, bijan, Elisa_Kendall, vit, bmotik, pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, Alan,
18:30:34 [Zakim]: ... TommieMeyer, +1.603.897.aadd, uli, Achille, Evan_Wallace, GiorgosStoilos, Zhe_Wu, JeffP, FabienG, Deborah, Bernardo, Ratnesh, IanH
18:30:41 [Ratnesh]: bye
18:39:45 [sandro]: RRSAgent, pointer?
18:39:45 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-owl-irc#T18-39-45
20:40:21 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #owl
21:25:55 [GiorgosStoilos]: GiorgosStoilos has joined #OWL