14:30:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:30:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-rif-irc
14:30:37 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:30:37 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 30 minutes
14:30:48 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 23 Oct 2007
14:30:57 <ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
14:31:05 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:31:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:31:12 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:31:12 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:31:31 <ChrisW> Scribe: Igor
14:41:40 <csma> csma has joined #rif
14:42:32 <csma> zakim, this will be rif
14:42:33 <Zakim> ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
14:43:08 <csma> Meeting: RIF telecon 23 October 2007
14:43:28 <csma> Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:43:43 <csma> Scribe: Igor Mozetic
14:44:31 <csma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0097.html
14:45:10 <csma> Regrets: PaulaLaviniaPatranjan, ?AllenGinsberg
14:46:21 <csma> topic #rif 23 October RIF telecon agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0097.html
14:52:53 <csma> zakim, clear agenda
14:52:53 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:53:07 <csma> agenda+ Admin
14:53:16 <csma> agenda+ Liaison
14:53:31 <csma> agenda+ F2F8
14:54:04 <csma> agenda+ BLD+SWC editors drafts
14:54:27 <csma> agenda+ Test cases
14:54:43 <csma> agenda+ Extensibility issues
14:57:05 <csma> Agenda+ AOB/Next meeting (incl. scribe)
14:57:34 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:58:55 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
14:59:23 <IgorMozetic> IgorMozetic has joined #rif
14:59:58 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:05 <Zakim> +??P34
15:00:13 <IgorMozetic> zakim, ??P34 is me
15:00:13 <Zakim> +IgorMozetic; got it
15:00:30 <Zakim> +??P33
15:00:37 <Zakim> +??P35
15:00:41 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P35)
15:00:44 <csma> zakim, ??P35 is me
15:00:44 <Zakim> I already had ??P35 as Dave_Reynolds, csma
15:00:56 <csma> zakim, ??P33 is me
15:00:56 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:01:01 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:11 <csma> scribenick: IgorMozetic
15:01:35 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see IgorMozetic, csma, Dave_Reynolds
15:02:02 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:06 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:02:06 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:02:36 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:02:47 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:02:56 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:03:02 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:05 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:03:07 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #rif
15:03:18 <Zakim> + +39.047.1.aaaa
15:03:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see IgorMozetic, csma, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell (muted), Harold, +39.047.1.aaaa
15:03:34 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:04:41 <csma> zakim, next agendum
15:05:04 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from csma]
15:05:46 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/att-0078/16-Oct-2007-rif-minutes.html
15:06:18 <IgorMozetic> accepted minutes of Oct 16 telecon
15:06:28 <Zakim> +JeffP
15:06:34 <csma> zakim, next agendum
15:06:38 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liaison" taken up [from csma]
15:07:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:07:34 <IgorMozetic> no actions
15:07:35 <csma> zakim, next agendum
15:07:35 <Zakim> agendum 3. "F2F8" taken up [from csma]
15:08:14 <IgorMozetic> post regrets if you don't plan to attend
15:08:35 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F8
15:08:38 <Zakim> +??P58
15:08:48 <josb> q+
15:08:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, ??P58 is me
15:08:50 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:08:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:08:54 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:09:14 <csma> q?
15:09:20 <csma> ack josb
15:10:01 <Zakim> +??P62
15:10:52 <JeffP> should be in the minutes of last telecon
15:10:57 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2007Oct/0000.html
15:11:01 <IgorMozetic> public comments on WD2 (as of Oct 15):
15:11:19 <csma> q?
15:11:25 <IgorMozetic> by PFPS
15:12:24 <IgorMozetic> we will take publich commenst after the publications of WD2 on Oct 31
15:12:31 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:12:45 <IgorMozetic> s/take publich commenst/address public comments/
15:12:53 <sandro> many apologies for being so late.
15:13:43 <IgorMozetic> sandro: no updates regarding F2F8
15:15:07 <IgorMozetic> the publication date, 31 Oct, of RIF-BLD WD2 is tentative
15:15:49 <IgorMozetic> send suggestions for the F2F8 agenda to the m-list
15:15:52 <csma> zakim, next agendum
15:15:52 <Zakim> agendum 4. "BLD+SWC editors drafts" taken up [from csma]
15:17:04 <IgorMozetic> sandro: 15 and 17 people registered for the F2F8 meeting days, respectively
15:17:39 <IgorMozetic> next telecon: decide to publish or not the WD2
15:18:17 <josb> q+
15:18:23 <IgorMozetic> q+
15:18:47 <csma> ack jodb
15:19:37 <IgorMozetic> the intend is to publish BLD+SWC together
15:19:40 <csma> ack josb
15:20:22 <sandro> q+ to ask about shortnames
15:20:37 <csma> ack igor
15:21:14 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:21:30 <MichaelKifer_> MichaelKifer_ has joined #rif
15:21:42 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:22:15 <IgorMozetic> csma: we should make clear that SWC is WD1
15:23:12 <IgorMozetic> csma: we will publish BLD WD2 and SWC WD1 separately
15:23:42 <sandro> csma: we can make the decisions separately
15:23:55 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
15:23:59 <IgorMozetic> csma: the point in publishing SWC is to make clear that we did work
15:24:12 <IgorMozetic> ... and want to get publich comments
15:24:37 <IgorMozetic> s/publich/publish/
15:24:37 <sandro> q?
15:24:52 <csma> ack sandro
15:24:52 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about shortnames
15:25:06 <MichaelKifer_> zakim, mute me
15:25:06 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelKifer_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:25:30 <IgorMozetic> sandro: we need short names for the documents
15:25:41 <Harold> q+
15:26:12 <MichaelKifer_> MichaelKifer_ has joined #rif
15:26:39 <Michael_Kifer> Michael_Kifer has joined #rif
15:26:47 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, mute me
15:26:47 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:27:22 <Harold> +1 to Christian
15:27:28 <IgorMozetic> csma: let's call it BLD WD2
15:27:40 <IgorMozetic> sandro: will check if this is possible
15:27:50 <Harold> (as planned, just changing the name but not the versioning numbers)
15:28:28 <csma> ack harold
15:28:56 <josb> for the swc doc: http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-rdf-owl?
15:29:11 <IgorMozetic> harold: there was official decision to split core into two docs
15:29:35 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/News/2007
15:30:13 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/News/2007#item57
15:31:00 <IgorMozetic> harold: proposes the name change Core-> BLD and continue with versioning, i.e., WD2
15:31:27 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-core/
15:31:49 <IgorMozetic> sandro: the above is the first version
15:32:25 <sandro> rif-bld will refer to http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-rif-core-20070330/  as its "Previous Version", formally (if possibnle) or informally
15:33:15 <IgorMozetic> harold: proposes a master document to point to other docs
15:33:46 <IgorMozetic> csma: BLD WD2 should point back to Core WD1 as previous version
15:34:13 <josb> q?
15:34:24 <sandro> rif-swc ?
15:34:29 <josb> q+
15:35:00 <IgorMozetic> csma: proposes short names rif-bld and rif-swc
15:35:14 <sandro> rif-rdf-owl
15:35:17 <csma> ack josb
15:35:22 <sandro> rif-rdf-owl-compat
15:36:04 <IgorMozetic> josb: prefers the above over SWC
15:36:22 <IgorMozetic> igor: +1
15:36:34 <sandro> rif-ucr, rif-core, rif-bld, rif-rdf-owl
15:37:06 <IgorMozetic> no objections to the above proposal
15:37:09 <csma> q?
15:37:12 <sandro> PROPOSED: Short name request for Jos' document will be rif-rdf-owl
15:37:27 <sandro> RESOLVED: Short name request for Jos' document will be rif-rdf-owl
15:37:48 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:37:53 <csma> ack axel
15:38:02 <sandro> PROPOSED: short name request for BLD will be rif-bld, with rif-core being republished as a trivial document referring people to rif-bld.
15:39:34 <IgorMozetic> no objections to the above proposal
15:39:34 <sandro> Axel: but what if we have an absyn for RIF that is written in RDF and OWL?   Wont that name get confusing?
15:39:38 <Harold> I was referring to this farily official looking 'Core splitting' news/blog item, which could become a starting point of a stub document branching to rif-bld and later also to rif-prd: http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2007/07/20/rif_wg_agrees_to_basic_logic_and_pr_dial
15:39:41 <sandro> Axel: but I can live with it.
15:39:49 <sandro> RESOLVED: short name request for BLD will be rif-bld, with rif-core being republished as a trivial document referring people to rif-bld.
15:40:24 <csma> zakim, next agendum
15:40:24 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Extensibility issues" taken up [from csma]
15:40:44 <csma> zakim, list agenda
15:40:44 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
15:40:46 <Zakim> 6. Extensibility issues [from csma]
15:40:47 <Zakim> 7. AOB/Next meeting (incl. scribe) [from csma]
15:41:00 <sandro> Harold, I think the news item you saw was this: http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2007/07/20/rif_wg_agrees_to_basic_logic_and_pr_dial
15:41:10 <csma> zakim, take up agendum 5
15:41:10 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Test cases" taken up [from csma]
15:41:26 <csma> zakim, take up agendum 5
15:41:26 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Test cases" taken up [from csma]
15:41:57 <sandro> RRSAgent, make record public
15:42:04 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes 
15:42:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-rif-minutes.html sandro
15:42:35 <csma> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/
15:43:56 <csma> q?
15:43:57 <sandro> test cases as : input + output,   or input+query+query-results
15:44:14 <IgorMozetic> sandro: test cases should be of the form "input query" and +query results
15:45:31 <josb> q+
15:45:36 <IgorMozetic> q+
15:46:29 <IgorMozetic> q-
15:47:36 <csma> ack josb
15:47:49 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:48:00 <sandro> Sandro: I don't think anyone has proposed intermixing print statements into the bodies of rules --- just a special kind of rule with a print body.
15:48:00 <IgorMozetic> josb: rif doesn't define query language
15:48:20 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:48:25 <sandro> Jos: test entailments, but these are not queries.
15:48:26 <csma> ack daver
15:49:14 <sandro> Maybe conclude "output(....)"  which can be seen as an action or a conclusion fact.
15:49:16 <sandro> q?
15:49:17 <josb> sure
15:49:42 <csma> ack axel
15:50:10 <josb> right
15:50:17 <DaveReynolds> yes
15:50:38 <josb> also conditions with existential quantifiers
15:51:13 <sandro> So -- PositiveEntailmentTests and NegativeEntailmentTests ?
15:51:44 <Harold> Jos, DaveR, the Condition Language is mentioned to be usable as a query language. Usually you write a query rule of the form answer(?x1 ... ?xN) :- rdf-query-expression-with-free-variables(?x1 ... ?xN).
15:52:15 <sandro> q?
15:52:32 <josb> q+
15:53:19 <DaveReynolds> q-
15:53:22 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:54:15 <Harold> The N variables of answer(?x1 ... ?xN)  will then be printed by the rule engine.
15:54:49 <csma> ack josb
15:54:57 <sandro> We need to clarify the difference between print, query, and entailment testing.
15:55:02 <IgorMozetic> csma: we have the print and the entailment approaches
15:55:24 <DaveReynolds> Harold - that is getting into notions of API and query that we don't want to standardize and is not necessary. We can just use the rule language to express the condition and whose conclusion is a simple ground predicate so we don't need to include variable bindings.
15:55:27 <sandro> Jos: what we specify is entailment, so that's what should be checked.
15:55:40 <DaveReynolds> q-
15:56:16 <IgorMozetic> q+
15:56:29 <csma> ack igor
15:57:18 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use PositiveEntailmentTests and NegativeEntailmentTests, and we can explain them in terms of Queries and Rrints for the relevant communities.
15:58:43 <josb> q+
15:58:58 <csma> ack josb
15:58:59 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use PositiveEntailmentTests and NegativeEntailmentTests, and we can explain them in terms of Queries and Prints for the relevant communities.
15:59:20 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use PositiveEntailmentTests and NegativeEntailmentTests (along with syntactic tests, and maybe others), and we can explain them in terms of Queries and Prints for the relevant communities.
15:59:35 <IgorMozetic> josb: agrees with Igor to have also separate syntactis tests
16:00:02 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
16:01:26 <sandro> Sandro: This document {....} is / is-not a syntactically valid BLD document.
16:01:49 <sandro> Sandro: This is separate from conformance, which speaks to what you actually DO on getting one of those.
16:02:11 <csma> q?
16:03:16 <JeffP> Sorry - I have to leave now.
16:03:25 <JeffP> Bye
16:03:37 <Zakim> -JeffP
16:05:03 <ChrisW> igor, a little more detail on scribing would be helpful
16:05:18 <sandro> Sandro: There is a subtle (and perhaps unimportant) difference between saying "X is a syntactically valid BLD document", and "All implementations must correctly report that X is a syntactically valid BLD document"
16:05:33 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use PositiveEntailmentTests and NegativeEntailmentTests (along with syntactic tests, and maybe others), and we can explain them in terms of Queries and Prints for the relevant communities.
16:06:15 <IgorMozetic> PROPOSED: also include syntactic tests
16:07:07 <Harold>  Sandro, Christian, while validity tests can be used for all kinds of XML-based specs (SVG, SOAP, WSDL, ...), entailment tests can only be used for logic-based languages (RDF, SPARQL, OWL, RIF, ...).
16:07:22 <IgorMozetic> dave: test if a specified predicate is entailed or not
16:07:45 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use PositiveEntailmentTests, NegativeEntailmentTests, PositiveSyntaxTests, NegativeSyntaxTests, (and maybe others).  We'll explain that entailment tests can be implemented by rules which conclude a ground fact which you check for.
16:08:21 <Harold> ... only after validity is ensured, can you move on to entailment tests.
16:08:59 <sandro> Dave: I was understanding the ground-fact would be in the test case
16:10:06 <IgorMozetic> proposal: use only ground queries, and the entailement test is yes/no
16:10:46 <IgorMozetic> csma: expect the output to list all the entailed ground facts
16:10:57 <Harold> Christian, "all the ground facts" works only for finite models.
16:11:06 <sandro> csma: A BLD input document, and an output document which contains a set of all the ground facts which are entailed.
16:11:08 <Harold> ... so only for the Datalog subset of RIF.
16:11:10 <ChrisW> uh oh
16:11:16 <ChrisW> lost the scribe
16:11:43 <IgorMozetic> IgorMozetic has joined #rif
16:12:14 <sandro> sandro: should not be ALL entailments -- but a specific one.
16:12:27 <josb> q+
16:12:28 <sandro> sandro: so you only want to be able to test Ground entailments???
16:12:42 <csma> ack josb
16:13:23 <IgorMozetic> josb: we should test all closed condition formulas
16:13:29 <sandro> Jos: I think we should test what the def'n allows us to test.     
16:13:57 <sandro> Jos: The defn of entailment defines when a particular BLD ruleset entails a closed bld condition formula.
16:14:22 <sandro> Jos: So an entailment test case has the same elements.
16:14:24 <IgorMozetic> josb: we should have also exist. quantified formulas to test
16:15:09 <csma> q?
16:15:47 <sandro> Dave: could be --- that closed formula is the body of another rule.
16:16:28 <josb> q+
16:16:38 <csma> ack josb
16:16:47 <sandro> Jos: I agree that they are equivalent.
16:17:11 <IgorMozetic> josb: if we make the equivalence clear in the test cases, jos is fne
16:17:16 <IgorMozetic> s/fne/fine/
16:17:51 <sandro> Sandro: My inclination is to keep that extra rule out of the entailment tests.
16:17:56 <GaryHallmark> q+ to ask why we are avoiding just adding queries
16:18:04 <csma> ack gary
16:18:04 <Zakim> GaryHallmark, you wanted to ask why we are avoiding just adding queries
16:18:20 <IgorMozetic> gary: why not include queries?
16:19:13 <sandro> zakim, agenda?
16:19:13 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
16:19:14 <Zakim> 6. Extensibility issues [from csma]
16:19:16 <Zakim> 7. AOB/Next meeting (incl. scribe) [from csma]
16:19:43 <IgorMozetic> csma: doesn't agree to include queries in RIF
16:21:05 <IgorMozetic> gary: seems simple, and one can write a portable test case
16:21:05 <Harold> For getting a Query Language from the Condition Language, the found bindings of the top-level Exists in Condition Language formulas need be just be printed.
16:21:08 <csma> q?
16:22:24 <IgorMozetic> sandro: there is no portable way to talk to any RIF system (no API)
16:22:37 <Harold> Gary, doing printing only on the top-level is no problem, not even semantically (also see 'monads' in functional programming).
16:23:13 <GaryHallmark> if you have a query that returns a RIF document containing ground facts, then you have a portable test
16:23:20 <IgorMozetic> sandro: create a wiki page with test cases proposal, examples
16:23:54 <csma> zakim, pick a victim
16:23:54 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro
16:24:13 <csma> zakim, pick a victim
16:24:13 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Michael_Kifer (muted)
16:24:27 <csma> zakim, pick a victim
16:24:27 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose StellaMitchell (muted)
16:24:38 <csma> ack stella
16:24:44 <StellaMitchell> I could try
16:25:11 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:25:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see IgorMozetic, csma, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, Harold, josb, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), AxelPolleres, Sandro, Gary_Hallmark, Michael_Kifer (muted)
16:25:13 <IgorMozetic> action: stella will create the wiki page on test cases
16:25:13 <rifbot> Created ACTION-360 - Will create the wiki page on test cases [on Stella Mitchell - due 2007-10-30].
16:25:43 <sandro> ACTION: StellaMitchell to update the Test Cases wiki page to give us a more concrete proposal (or proposals) with one or more examples.
16:25:43 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - StellaMitchell
16:25:52 <sandro> ACTION: Stella to update the Test Cases wiki page to give us a more concrete proposal (or proposals) with one or more examples.
16:25:52 <rifbot> Created ACTION-361 - Update the Test Cases wiki page to give us a more concrete proposal (or proposals) with one or more examples. [on Stella Mitchell - due 2007-10-30].
16:26:16 <StellaMitchell> yes
16:27:24 <csma> unmute leora
16:27:39 <csma> zakim, unmute leora
16:27:39 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
16:27:52 <IgorMozetic> to scribe next week: Leora
16:28:29 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/Extensibility_Design_Choices
16:28:48 <csma> zakim, pick up agendum 6
16:28:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick up agendum 6', csma
16:29:06 <csma> zakim, next agendum
16:29:06 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Extensibility issues" taken up [from csma]
16:29:21 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:30:07 <IgorMozetic> sandro: have a look at the above page and comment, pros/cons, ...
16:30:31 <Harold> Also see http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/RIF_Components/RIF_Dialect_Structure for a system of such extensions (Naf etc.): http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/RIF_Components/RIF_Dialect_Structure
16:30:39 <Zakim> -josb
16:30:42 <IgorMozetic> csma: next week telecom in Europe at 16:00 (instead of 17:00)
16:31:04 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
16:31:06 <Zakim> -Harold
16:31:07 <IgorMozetic> adjurned
16:31:08 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:31:09 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:31:10 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
16:31:12 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
16:31:13 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:31:15 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:31:19 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see IgorMozetic, csma
16:31:35 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-rif-minutes.html csma
16:33:06 <Zakim> -csma
16:33:34 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
16:33:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-rif-minutes.html csma
16:33:46 <Zakim> -IgorMozetic
16:33:48 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:33:49 <Zakim> Attendees were IgorMozetic, Dave_Reynolds, csma, StellaMitchell, Harold, +39.047.1.aaaa, josb, JeffP, LeoraMorgenstern, AxelPolleres, Sandro, Gary_Hallmark, Michael_Kifer
16:34:42 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
16:34:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-rif-minutes.html csma
16:37:54 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
16:37:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-rif-minutes.html csma
16:51:31 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
16:51:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-rif-minutes.html csma
16:52:03 <csma> csma has left #rif