IRC log of bpwg on 2007-10-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:48:41 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #bpwg

13:48:41 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-bpwg-irc

13:48:43 [trackbot-ng]

RRSAgent, make logs member

13:48:45 [trackbot-ng]

Zakim, this will be BPWG

13:48:45 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

13:48:47 [trackbot-ng]

Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference

13:48:49 [trackbot-ng]

Date: 18 October 2007

13:49:38 [dom]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Oct/0034.html

13:49:40 [dom]

Chair: Jo

13:50:22 [dom]

Regrets: Mike, Ignacio, Abel, Robert Finean

13:55:09 [Zakim]

jo, you asked to be pinged at this time

13:55:30 [jo]

Regrets+ Bryan

13:58:39 [dom]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:00:29 [DKA]

DKA has joined #bpwg

14:00:32 [dom]

Regrets+ Charles

14:00:44 [dom]

Regrets+ Magnus

14:00:46 [edm]

edm has joined #bpwg

14:00:57 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started

14:01:04 [Zakim]

+Ed_Mitukiewicz

14:01:31 [jo]

zakim, code?

14:01:31 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo

14:01:56 [Zakim]

+Dom

14:02:22 [Zakim]

+jo

14:02:36 [SeanPatterson]

SeanPatterson has joined #bpwg

14:03:26 [jo]

zakim, who is here?

14:03:26 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ed_Mitukiewicz, Dom (muted), jo

14:03:27 [Zakim]

On IRC I see SeanPatterson, edm, DKA, RRSAgent, matt, Zakim, jo, dom, trackbot-ng

14:04:07 [Zakim]

+SeanPatterson

14:04:10 [adam]

adam has joined #bpwg

14:04:29 [Zakim]

+??P16

14:04:52 [jo]

zakim, ??P16 is Adam

14:04:52 [Zakim]

+Adam; got it

14:05:23 [Zakim]

+Kai_Dietrich

14:05:49 [Zakim]

+DKA

14:07:16 [Zakim]

+ +1.650.224.aaaa

14:07:47 [jo]

zakim, aaaa is SRO

14:07:47 [Zakim]

+SRO; got it

14:08:13 [Zakim]

-Dom

14:08:19 [achuter]

achuter has joined #bpwg

14:08:45 [srowen]

srowen has joined #bpwg

14:08:48 [Zakim]

+Dom

14:09:02 [jo]

zakim, SRO is srowen

14:09:02 [Zakim]

+srowen; got it

14:09:29 [dom]

Regrets+ Bruno

14:09:41 [srowen]

jo: ACTION-559

14:09:43 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/559

14:09:56 [edm]

See also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2007Oct/0044.html

14:10:04 [jo]

Topic: ACTION-559

14:10:48 [srowen]

edm: I think we agreed that everything would be conducted in public unless otherwise requested

14:11:08 [srowen]

I think we addressed remaining concerns

14:11:11 [srowen]

new home page will be public

14:11:15 [Zakim]

+ +1.781.267.aabb

14:12:05 [srowen]

only private items would be email, and this would not be retroactively applied to old messages and so on

14:12:46 [jo]

zakim, aabb is shah

14:12:46 [Zakim]

+shah; got it

14:12:47 [dom]

q+ to comment on visibility of standing

14:12:53 [jo]

ack dom

14:12:54 [Zakim]

dom, you wanted to comment on visibility of standing

14:13:51 [srowen]

dom: we can make public only name and affiliation of members

14:14:14 [srowen]

keep current version, or create separate public version?

14:14:24 [srowen]

(+1 to making a public version if it's easy)

14:14:24 [dom]

+1

14:14:28 [srowen]

jo: I support this

14:14:30 [edm]

+1

14:14:31 [Kai]

Kai has joined #bpwg

14:14:38 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=37584&public=1 Public version of the participation list

14:14:49 [srowen]

jo: Let's assume we will have a public version

14:15:26 [srowen]

jo: old private material will remain private

14:16:08 [Kai]

I for one would rather not have the usage data I provided for the group in the public domain

14:16:50 [srowen]

need plan to enact this

14:17:03 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:17:18 [dom]

[I just made our Group page public]

14:17:47 [srowen]

dom: happy to make any pages public

14:18:39 [srowen]

jo: what about making a new page?

14:19:01 [srowen]

probably don't want to bring into public view a page linking to old drafts, etc.

14:19:02 [edm]

q+ to clarify some details for Dom

14:19:48 [edm]

See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2007Sep/0062.html for discussion of specifics

14:20:18 [srowen]

dom: wouldn't this break links?

14:20:27 [srowen]

jo: but we would leave existing documents in place

14:21:32 [srowen]

edm: see message for specifics. I examined the links and it looks fine

14:21:45 [srowen]

in general we agreed old docs remain private

14:22:44 [srowen]

jo: want to avoid broken links off home page, to old docs

14:22:57 [srowen]

will take an action to discuss with appropriate person about this

14:23:06 [jo]

ACTION: Jo to progress public/private plan with Dom etc.

14:23:06 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-580 - Progress public/private plan with Dom etc. [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-10-25].

14:23:33 [jo]

Topic: mobileOK Tests

14:24:22 [srowen]

jo: have written proposed responses to all LC3 comments, except those that came in yesterday?

14:24:28 [srowen]

srowen: right, though they are mostly editorial

14:24:54 [srowen]

jo: getting ready to request transition to CR

14:25:04 [srowen]

but dom has suggested we should define exit criteria

14:25:15 [dom]

ack me

14:25:57 [srowen]

dom: to transition to CR, of course need to finalize document and answer all comments

14:26:05 [srowen]

need to agree on exit criteria too

14:27:37 [srowen]

for the BP document, we required that each BP be implemented twice on a web site

14:28:31 [srowen]

suggest we need examples of mobileOK Basic compliant web sites, maybe 5-10

14:28:51 [srowen]

need to include the requirement of having checker implementations

14:28:58 [srowen]

we have the library that was just released for example

14:29:43 [srowen]

maybe need URLs to test mobileOK Basic

14:30:08 [jo]

ack ed

14:30:08 [Zakim]

edm, you wanted to clarify some details for Dom

14:30:18 [srowen]

jo: need compliant web sites, implementation, and test suites for a checker

14:30:41 [Kai]

q+

14:31:30 [jo]

ack kai

14:31:31 [srowen]

srowen: i agree with the criteria and believe we can argue we have met them

14:31:43 [dom]

ack me

14:31:55 [srowen]

kai: dom said we need to implement everything twice: ?

14:32:37 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Exit criteria from CR for mobileOK are a) 10 mobileOK compliant Web sites, b) 2 checkers implement each aspect of each test c) a test suite to verify the correct operation of checkers

14:32:58 [srowen]

dom: this was the criteria we chose for BP document, but we don't need that criteria for mobileOK Basic

14:33:19 [srowen]

I mean we should show that the main page is mobileOK on a iste, not necessarily every single page

14:34:10 [Zakim]

-jo

14:34:16 [jo]

zakim, code?

14:34:16 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo

14:34:22 [edm]

s/iste/site/

14:34:47 [dom]

ack me

14:35:32 [srowen]

+1

14:35:38 [Kai_]

Kai_ has joined #bpwg

14:35:52 [Kai_]

zakim, Kai_ is me

14:35:52 [Zakim]

+Kai_; got it

14:36:08 [dom]

q+ to propose a few amendments to the proposed resolution: s/Web sites/Web sites hompages/; and ask about "2 checkers..."

14:36:11 [Kai_]

nick Kai

14:36:58 [Zakim]

+ +020899aacc

14:37:07 [jo]

zakim, aacc is jo

14:37:07 [Zakim]

+jo; got it

14:38:02 [Kai]

Jo, could you please repost the proposed resolution?

14:38:39 [srowen]

dom: maybe just 1 checker?

14:39:07 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Exit criteria from CR for mobileOK are a) 10 mobileOK compliant Web pages, b) there exists a checker that checks each aspect of each test c) a test suite to verify the correct operation of checkers

14:39:27 [Kai]

+1

14:39:30 [jo]

RESOLUTION: Exit criteria from CR for mobileOK are a) 10 mobileOK compliant Web pages, b) there exists a checker that checks each aspect of each test c) a test suite to verify the correct operation of checkers

14:39:52 [jo]

http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mobileOK-basic10-tests-20070928/

14:40:06 [srowen]

jo: there are more, but they may all be editoriala

14:40:16 [srowen]

(srowen: I will enter those new comments into tracker)

14:40:21 [srowen]

jo: LC-1855

14:42:00 [Kai]

Kai has joined #bpwg

14:42:09 [srowen]

srowen: think that maybe 'usability' is just a slightly overloaded term

14:42:23 [srowen]

just wanting to say mobileOK Basic is looking for basic problems, not confirming a site is great

14:42:35 [srowen]

I think the intended point is clear so would be ok with current wording

14:42:38 [srowen]

jo: is there a better word?

14:42:59 [srowen]

achuter: the tests are testing for the negative, for problems rather than positive things

14:43:52 [srowen]

jo: think it's not so important and we can leave as is?

14:44:06 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: LC-1855 No We take your point but we don't think any ambiguity is introduced by this

14:44:08 [srowen]

srowen: yes I think one can construe these as more about following specs rather than usability

14:44:16 [srowen]

+1

14:44:22 [jo]

RESOLUTION: LC-1855 No We take your point but we don't think any ambiguity is introduced by this

14:44:45 [srowen]

LC-1859 resolves last week

14:44:49 [srowen]

jo: LC-1857

14:45:33 [srowen]

jo: agree that we probably do want to count 302/401 'against' the page

14:45:46 [Kai]

He seems to think exclusively aobut a 301 error

14:46:23 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: LC-1857 No We are keen to minimise rounds trips and reduce the overall data transfer burden which is why it is like it is

14:46:39 [jo]

RESOLUTION: LC-1857 No We are keen to minimise rounds trips and reduce the overall data transfer burden which is why it is like it is

14:48:45 [srowen]

srowen: tester doc does define behavior of test clients, but this does not mean mobileOK Basic tests define client behavior tests

14:49:12 [srowen]

jo: so we should note that the test client behavior we describe is not necessarily suggested for clients?

14:50:36 [srowen]

kai: so this is resolved yes if we are making an editorial change

14:50:37 [srowen]

srowen: yes

14:50:42 [jo]

i/srowen: tester/Topic: LC-1856

14:50:47 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: LC-1856 Yes, we agree that it is worth clarifying that the checkers behavior should not be taken as bing indicative of how we think a client should behave in general

14:50:56 [Zakim]

-shah

14:51:08 [jo]

RESOLUTION: LC-1856 Yes, we agree that it is worth clarifying that the checkers behavior should not be taken as bing indicative of how we think a client should behave in general

14:51:25 [jo]

Topic: LC-1854

14:52:06 [Kai]

Kai has joined #bpwg

14:53:07 [srowen]

jo: yes -- warn means a couple things, is it worth capturing? can't be determined, or may not be so serious?

14:53:14 [srowen]

srowen: yes, think it's worth a brief note

14:53:22 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: LC-1854 Yes, we think a note of clarification is warranted

14:54:00 [srowen]

+1

14:54:11 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: LC-1854 Yes, we think a note of clarification is warranted e.g. that it can't be determined, that it may be because it is dubious practice that in some circumstances can't be avoided

14:54:29 [jo]

RESOLUTION: LC-1854 Yes, we think a note of clarification is warranted e.g. that it can't be determined, that it may be because it is dubious practice that in some circumstances can't be avoided

14:55:01 [srowen]

jo: LC-1858

14:55:13 [jo]

s/jo:/Topic/

14:56:15 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: LC-1858 Yes, partial, the bevavior is deliberate in order to allow for the testing of error pages. We will add a note clarifying this.

14:56:33 [jo]

RESOLUTION: LC-1858 Yes, partial, the bevavior is deliberate in order to allow for the testing of error pages. We will add a note clarifying this.

14:56:41 [Kai]

Kai has joined #bpwg

14:56:56 [jo]

Topic: Task Force Reports

14:57:34 [dom]

ack me

14:57:35 [Zakim]

dom, you wanted to propose a few amendments to the proposed resolution: s/Web sites/Web sites hompages/; and ask about "2 checkers..."

14:59:48 [srowen]

jo: CT taskforce let group decide what to do

15:00:23 [srowen]

dom: group is OK with publishing the doc provided we change the title a bit about 'challenges'

15:00:31 [srowen]

jo: I meant we should say they don't need group resolutions to do this

15:01:03 [srowen]

we just want something to happen quickly -- approve all this including whatever further editorial changes are needed

15:01:04 [srowen]

dom: yes

15:01:46 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: CT Task Force to figure out what to do and providing changes are editorial no further resolutions to publish required from BPWG

15:02:07 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: CT Task Force to figure out what to do about Problem Statement Problem and providing changes are editorial no further resolutions to publish required from BPWG

15:02:16 [jo]

RESOLUTION: CT Task Force to figure out what to do about Problem Statement Problem and providing changes are editorial no further resolutions to publish required from BPWG

15:02:41 [srowen]

achuted: on accessibility, there has not been much participation

15:02:48 [srowen]

s/achuted/achuter/

15:02:54 [jo]

i/achuter/Topic: Accessibility Task Force

15:03:21 [srowen]

there has not been much progress on the document

15:03:53 [srowen]

lack of participation remains an issue

15:05:00 [srowen]

concern is about spending effort to become mobileOK, but then having to do more, or undo that work, to be accessible

15:05:06 [dom]

q+

15:05:09 [dom]

ack me

15:05:16 [jo]

ack d

15:05:38 [srowen]

dom: who is participating in the accessibility TF now?

15:06:08 [srowen]

achuter: myself, maybe someone from CTIC. Maybe Bruno, Dave from Segala. Little has happened yet though

15:06:17 [srowen]

jo: possibly Charles as well

15:07:03 [srowen]

achuter: David from Barcelona has tried to send comments but haven't gone through

15:07:33 [srowen]

jo: let's discuss at F2F

15:07:57 [jo]

Topic: Checker TF Report

15:08:04 [jo]

scribe: jo

15:08:26 [dom]

[I have started fixing of them (bugs) :) ]

15:08:26 [jo]

srowen: alpha release ouyt, please play with it and report bugs, there may be a few?

15:08:31 [dom]

s/of/a few of/

15:08:38 [jo]

... another release before F2F

15:08:43 [dom]

q+

15:08:46 [dom]

ack me

15:08:59 [jo]

scribe: srowen

15:09:46 [srowen]

dom: send me an e-mail if you would like the URI of a very experimental web interface to this implementation

15:10:15 [jo]

Topic: F2F Agenda for Boston

15:10:32 [jo]

-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWG-Spring-2008-F2F/ Propsoed agenda

15:10:54 [jo]

s/Propsoed/Proposed

15:10:54 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/mid/C8FFD98530207F40BD8D2CAD608B50B47D4091@mtldsvr01.DotMobi.local

15:11:39 [DKA]

+1

15:11:47 [srowen]

jo: group dinner?

15:11:51 [srowen]

+1

15:12:48 [srowen]

jo: (reviews agenda)

15:13:33 [srowen]

need to review task forces and possibly kill, say, HTML 5 taskforce if needed

15:14:54 [srowen]

jo: (still reviewing agenda)

15:15:33 [srowen]

we have a very large turnout, including observers

15:15:53 [dom]

[it is good practice to send an ack mail to observers, fwiw]

15:16:32 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2007/registrants#mwbp Registrants for BPWG meeting

15:17:21 [jo]

Need people to respond to Seoul quesionnaire, at the moment it is in doubt as we only have 8 positive responses.

15:17:26 [jo]

Topic: AOB

15:17:38 [jo]

[none]

15:17:42 [Zakim]

-Dom

15:17:43 [Zakim]

-Adam

15:17:46 [Zakim]

-Kai_

15:17:48 [Zakim]

-srowen

15:17:48 [Zakim]

-jo

15:17:50 [Zakim]

-achuter

15:17:51 [Zakim]

-SeanPatterson

15:17:59 [jo]

(thanks to Sean for Scribing)

15:17:59 [dom]

Zakim, list attendees

15:17:59 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Ed_Mitukiewicz, Dom, jo, SeanPatterson, Adam, Kai_Dietrich, DKA, +1.650.224.aaaa, srowen, +1.781.267.aabb, shah, achuter, Kai_, +020899aacc

15:18:02 [Zakim]

-DKA

15:18:04 [dom]

RRSagent, draft minutes

15:18:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-bpwg-minutes.html dom

15:22:19 [dom]

i/<srowen> ACTION-559/ScribeNick: srowen/

15:22:29 [dom]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:22:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-bpwg-minutes.html dom

15:23:05 [dom]

i/<srowen> jo: ACTION-559/ScribeNick: srowen/

15:23:14 [dom]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:23:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-bpwg-minutes.html dom

15:23:59 [jo]

s/ouyt/out/

15:24:48 [jo]

i/Need people to respond to Seoul/Topic: Seoul Questionnaire/

15:26:09 [jo]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:26:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-bpwg-minutes.html jo

15:30:04 [Zakim]

-Ed_Mitukiewicz

15:30:05 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended

15:30:06 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ed_Mitukiewicz, Dom, jo, SeanPatterson, Adam, Kai_Dietrich, DKA, +1.650.224.aaaa, srowen, +1.781.267.aabb, shah, achuter, Kai_, +020899aacc

15:30:23 [dom]

Zakim, bye

15:30:23 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #bpwg

15:30:26 [dom]

RRSAgent, bye

15:30:26 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-bpwg-actions.rdf :

15:30:26 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jo to progress public/private plan with Dom etc. [1]

15:30:26 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-bpwg-irc#T14-23-06