16:49:04 RRSAgent has joined #owl 16:49:04 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/17-owl-irc 16:49:07 Zakim has joined #owl 16:49:14 zakim, this will be owl 16:49:14 ok, sandro; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes 16:49:27 bmotik has joined #owl 16:49:50 SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started 16:49:57 +Sandro 16:50:02 Meeting: OWL Working Group 16:50:17 Chair: Alan Ruttenberg, Ian Horrocks 16:50:34 RRSAgent, make record public 16:50:34 +??P39 16:50:45 zakim, mute me 16:50:45 sorry, bijan, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 16:50:52 zakim, ??p39 is me 16:50:52 +bijan; got it 16:51:07 FabianN has joined #owl 16:52:26 achille has joined #owl 16:54:03 +??P42 16:54:12 +[IBM] 16:54:32 Zakim, ??P42 is Boris 16:54:32 +Boris; got it 16:54:58 Zakim, IBM is temporarily Achille 16:54:58 +Achille; got it 16:55:27 MikeSmith has joined #owl 16:55:57 MarkusK has joined #owl 16:56:27 Elisa has joined #owl 16:56:55 vipul has joined #owl 16:57:03 +Alan_Ruttenberg 16:57:03 Zakim, Boris is bmotik 16:57:04 +bmotik; got it 16:57:05 + +1.301.975.aaaa 16:57:17 + +1.202.408.aabb 16:57:22 -Alan_Ruttenberg 16:57:36 alanr has joined #owl 16:57:43 +Elisa_Kendall 16:58:02 zakm, who is here? 16:58:13 + +018652aacc 16:58:21 +??P44 16:58:24 +Vipul_Kashyap 16:58:25 IanH has joined #owl 16:58:28 +Alan_Ruttenberg 16:58:32 zakim, ??p44 is me 16:58:32 +pfps; got it 16:58:44 zakim, who is on the call? 16:58:44 On the phone I see Sandro, bijan, bmotik, Achille, +1.301.975.aaaa, MikeSmith, Elisa_Kendall, +018652aacc, pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, Alan_Ruttenberg 16:59:58 Zakim, aaaa is Fabien 16:59:58 +Fabien; got it 17:00:15 bmotik has joined #owl 17:00:16 +[IPcaller] 17:00:19 Zakim, IPCaller is me 17:00:19 +jjc; got it 17:00:24 Zakim, aacc is Ian 17:00:24 +Ian; got it 17:00:29 Zakim, mute me 17:00:29 jjc should now be muted 17:00:29 zakim, who is on the call? 17:00:30 On the phone I see Sandro, bijan, bmotik, Achille, Fabien, MikeSmith, Elisa_Kendall, Ian, pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc (muted) 17:00:42 zakim, mute me 17:00:42 pfps should now be muted 17:01:06 JeffP has joined #owl 17:01:11 i'll volunteer 17:01:15 Note: I have not completed paperwork to join WG yet, technically I guess I am observer or something. 17:01:16 zakim, unmute me 17:01:16 pfps should no longer be muted 17:01:18 bmotik has joined #owl 17:01:20 zakim, mute me 17:01:20 pfps should now be muted 17:01:37 what do I need to do to set up as scribe? 17:01:48 one sec 17:01:53 zakim, who is on the call? 17:01:53 On the phone I see Sandro, bijan, bmotik, Achille, Fabien, MikeSmith, Elisa_Kendall, Ian, pfps (muted), Vipul_Kashyap, Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc (muted) 17:02:05 + +012242aadd 17:02:09 bmotik has joined #owl 17:02:15 zakim, aadd is me 17:02:15 +JeffP; got it 17:02:16 +??P11 17:02:19 ekw has joined #owl 17:02:28 achille has joined #owl 17:02:28 Peter, see: http://dev.w3.org/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm 17:02:44 zakim, unmute me 17:02:44 pfps should no longer be muted 17:03:50 zakim, this will be owl 17:03:50 ok, pfps, I see SW_OWL()1:00PM already started 17:03:59 Here: http://dev.w3.org/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm 17:04:29 Scribe: pfps 17:04:42 Scribe: Peter Patel-Schneider 17:04:47 ScribeNick: pfps 17:05:00 Meeting: OWL WG Teleconference 17:05:00 zakim, mute me 17:05:00 bijan should now be muted 17:05:07 zakim, who's making noise 17:05:07 I don't understand 'who's making noise', bijan 17:05:11 +Evan_Wallace 17:05:15 zakim, noise 17:05:15 I don't understand 'noise', bijan 17:05:30 Chair: Alan Ruttenberg 17:05:31 Zakim, who is speaking? 17:05:42 jjc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Alan_Ruttenberg (100%), Ian (32%), bmotik (4%) 17:05:50 q+ to note I am here before joining WG 17:06:03 zakim, who is on the call? 17:06:03 On the phone I see Sandro, bijan (muted), bmotik, Achille, Fabien, MikeSmith, Elisa_Kendall, Ian, pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc (muted), JeffP, MarkusK (muted), 17:06:06 ... Evan_Wallace 17:06:33 Topic: Roll Call 17:06:34 Zakim, mute me 17:06:34 bmotik should now be muted 17:06:38 zakim, who is on the call? 17:06:38 On the phone I see Sandro, bijan (muted), bmotik (muted), Achille, Fabien, MikeSmith, Elisa_Kendall, Ian, pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc (muted), JeffP, MarkusK (muted), 17:06:42 ... Evan_Wallace 17:07:17 Zakim, uniute me 17:07:17 I don't understand 'uniute me', jjc 17:07:17 q? 17:07:24 ack jjc 17:07:25 jjc, you wanted to note I am here before joining WG 17:07:34 zakim, could you mute me, too? 17:07:34 I don't understand your question, FabianN. 17:07:57 zakim, mute FabianN 17:07:57 sorry, JeffP, I do not know which phone connection belongs to FabianN 17:08:07 Zakim, mute me 17:08:07 jjc should now be muted 17:08:12 jjc: not a member of the WG 17:08:20 sandro: jjc is invited 17:08:23 jjc is Jeremy Carroll of HP 17:08:23 zakim, mute me 17:08:23 sorry, FabianN, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 17:08:31 Topic: Agenda amendments 17:08:51 ianh: no amendments 17:09:04 Topc: Accept minutes 17:09:15 Topic: Accept Minutes 17:09:21 ianh: any corrections to minutes? 17:09:57 pfps has joined #owl 17:09:59 PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.10.10/Minutes 17:10:11 RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.10.10/Minutes 17:10:40 Topic: Action items status 17:11:24 alan: action1 (login alignment) still in progress 17:11:37 ianh: action item 2 html is possible 17:11:46 q+ login alignment 17:11:58 ianh: action item 3 comments on RIF BLD done 17:11:58 Peter's comments 17:12:07 Topic: Charter Review 17:12:27 ianh: assumption is that everyone has read all the documents (including the charter) 17:12:50 ianh: quick run-through of charter followed by discussion 17:13:15 ianh: scope of WG is extensions to OWL (logic, datatypes, expressive power) 17:13:31 ianh: plus language fragment definition 17:13:44 ianh: OWL 1.1 submission is starting point 17:14:01 ianh: starting issue list is OWL 1.1. issue list plus postponed issues from WebOnt 17:14:09 q+ to talk about backwards compat 17:14:14 ianh: backwards compatability is important 17:14:35 ianh: feature addition is to be conservative 17:14:39 alanr has joined #owl 17:14:41 here now 17:15:00 welcome, Alan-on-IRC :-) 17:15:04 zakim, mute me 17:15:04 Alan_Ruttenberg should now be muted 17:15:18 Structural specification 17:15:38 ianh: deliverables (not necessary documents) - overview, requirements, formal spec (3 docs), outreach (...), test suite, language fragments 17:15:48 ianh: XML exchange syntax also possible deliverable 17:16:13 ianh: timeline is quite tight, first documents beginning of Feb 17:16:48 ianh: last call august 2008, ..., 17:17:05 ianh: first F2F is december 17:17:17 ianh: dependencies from other workings groups (on agenda) 17:17:38 zakim, unmute me 17:17:38 bijan should no longer be muted 17:17:40 q? 17:17:41 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:17:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/17-owl-minutes.html sandro 17:17:44 q? 17:17:59 RRSAgent, make record public 17:18:38 question, or discussion point? 17:18:43 bijan: backwards compability is good but not absolute 17:18:58 zakim, mute me 17:18:58 bijan should now be muted 17:19:01 q? 17:19:12 q- 17:19:20 q- 17:19:23 q- 17:19:24 ianh: let's not make a decision, but make it a case by case basis 17:19:25 q- login 17:19:30 q- alignment 17:19:43 a+ 17:19:44 q+ 17:19:56 This is off topic, isn't it? 17:19:59 vipul: multiple wikis (W3C and ESW) mean multiple logins, can they be aligned? 17:20:08 sandro: no 17:20:29 zakim, unmute me 17:20:29 Alan_Ruttenberg should no longer be muted 17:20:38 q+ to suggest backward compatibility will resolve itself 17:20:49 ?q 17:20:55 Present: Sandro, Bijan, bmotik, Achille, Fabien, MikeSmith, Elisa_Kendall, Ian, pfps, Vipul_Kashyap, Alan_Ruttenberg, jjc, JeffP, MarkusK, Evan_Wallace 17:21:00 q? 17:21:04 q- 17:21:08 zakim, mute me 17:21:08 Alan_Ruttenberg should now be muted 17:21:11 alanr: questions on charter need resolution in the future, e.g., backwards compatability 17:21:14 q- alanr 17:21:17 ack 17:21:22 q? 17:21:25 -Vipul_Kashyap 17:21:43 it's in the charter already 17:21:50 no need to put it on the queue 17:21:51 +Vipul_Kashyap 17:22:01 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:22:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/17-owl-minutes.html sandro 17:22:12 +1 to ianh saying "wait until backwards compt comes up to discuss it" 17:22:25 +1 to ianh 17:22:38 Ian: Let's not talk about Backward Compatibility until we come up with a specific instance of a question about it? Any objections? No..... 17:22:39 Topic: Deliverables 17:22:52 I just wanted to make sure it was *open* so that we *will* have that discussion rather 17:23:09 sandro: w3c has software for tracking issues and action items (TRACKER) 17:23:22 trackbot-ng, help 17:23:22 See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link) 17:23:49 zakim, unmute me 17:23:49 Alan_Ruttenberg should no longer be muted 17:23:50 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Working_Group 17:24:10 sandro: trackbot-ng sits on the IRC and records things 17:24:29 sandro: the owl wg home page has a pointer to the information gathered 17:25:23 sandro: the web page allows management of actions and issues 17:26:18 sandro: products (documents or tasks) are linked to issues and actions 17:26:22 bmotik has joined #owl 17:26:48 I got an email 17:26:55 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/ 17:26:59 With: Subject: ISSUE-1 (test): Test Issue 17:27:13 I see the webpage too 17:28:15 sandro: using the names of issues, (actions, etc) verbatim (ALLCAPS-#) in email links them in 17:28:59 sandro: wiki integration is not yet available (but might be coming) 17:29:28 ianh: are we going to use this? 17:29:41 zakim, unmute me 17:29:41 bijan should no longer be muted 17:29:46 alan: PROPOSED: move all current issues to trackbot 17:29:46 PROPOSED Move current issues to tracker 17:30:04 sandro: there was discussion of this offline 17:30:17 bijan: let's discuss this on email 17:31:02 sandro: one issue is that it would be nice to have proposed issues and accepted issues 17:31:03 ok. wait one week. withdraw proposed 17:31:14 zakim, mute me 17:31:14 bijan should now be muted 17:31:45 alanr: will there be an open-to-the-world issues list? 17:31:51 Isn't that what I'm sending email about? 17:32:05 yes 17:32:09 +1 17:32:10 sandro: interest but no decision yet 17:32:26 ianh: for next week's agenda: discuss this 17:32:36 Topic: Publication Schedule 17:32:53 sandro: process requirements for WGs 17:33:38 Sandro: Very roughly, our job, as a W3C Working Group, is to create specifications which everyone in the world regards as "good enough". ("Good enough", perhaps to by not worthwhile to produce a competing spec.) 17:33:43 Sandro: The W3C process has evolved over the past ~13 years to help us achieve this goal. 17:33:49 trackbot-ng has joined #owl 17:33:49 Sandro: Step 1 - we come up with a design that's a starting point; ask the world for input. (First Public Working Draft - WD1) 17:33:55 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/ 17:34:06 Sandro: Step 2 - we iterate the design until we think it's good enough (more Working Drafts, Last Call Working Draft - LC) 17:34:31 Sandro: Step 3 - we incorporate any LC feedback to produce an even better spec, and ask for people to implement it. (Candidate Recommendation - CR) 17:35:06 Sandro: Step 5 - once there is proof of interoperability, we incorporate feedback into another draft (Proposed Recommendation - PR) 17:35:27 Sandro: Step 6 - the PR is evaluated by W3C members; if they approve, it becomes a Recommendation (REC). 17:35:54 Sandro: If a problem comes up in the later stages, we may have to go back to step 2, iterating the design some more. 17:36:11 q+ to comment on step 6 17:36:18 qq? 17:36:21 q? 17:36:27 Zakim, unmute me 17:36:27 jjc should no longer be muted 17:36:28 ack Jjc 17:36:29 jjc, you wanted to comment on step 6 17:37:13 jjc: step 6 is not a note, but something different involving the director 17:37:21 s/note/vote 17:37:34 sandro: no observable differences yet 17:38:55 sandro: there is internal consultation within the W3C staff to make decisions 17:38:59 Zakim, mute me 17:38:59 jjc should now be muted 17:39:32 PROPOSED: Our first working drafts are: Structural Specification, Semantics, RDF Mapping 17:39:48 q+ to say we should publish earlier than F2F 17:40:07 alanr: this means focussing on the core documents, not to say that the current versions are what the first working draft would be 17:40:15 Comment: it would be more usual to publish requirements before the answers ... 17:40:22 zakim, unmute me 17:40:22 bijan should no longer be muted 17:40:29 q? 17:40:40 ack bijan 17:40:40 bijan, you wanted to say we should publish earlier than F2F 17:40:42 bijan: working drafts are not commitments 17:41:03 bijan: we should publish working drafts before the F2F 17:41:35 bijan: this makes transition from webont.org to w3c space 17:41:57 zakim, mute me 17:41:57 bijan should now be muted 17:42:03 bijan: PROPOSE making the documents as WDs ASAP 17:42:16 yes 17:42:19 zakim, unmute me 17:42:19 bijan should no longer be muted 17:42:34 alanr: two steps in resolution 1/ are these docs OK for WDs, 2/ when to publish 17:42:53 zakim, mute me 17:42:53 bijan should now be muted 17:43:01 q+ to note requirements logically precede 17:43:06 zakim, unmute me 17:43:06 bijan should no longer be muted 17:43:07 RESOLUTION: existing webont documents are first WDs (appropriately edited) 17:43:08 Zakim, unmute me 17:43:08 jjc should no longer be muted 17:43:37 NOT RESOLVED 17:43:44 q+ 17:43:44 s/RESOLUTION/PROPOSED/ 17:43:44 q+ 17:43:48 zakim, mute me 17:43:48 bijan should now be muted 17:44:08 PROPOSED: Our first working drafts are: Structural Specification, Semantics, RDF Mapping 17:44:46 this is as-per http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/ ? 17:45:14 jjc: deliverables have a requirements document, which logically should preceed the technical document 17:45:16 Requirements: 17:45:16 A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1. 17:45:33 ie http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/owl_specification.html http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/semantics.html and http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/rdf_mapping.html 17:46:08 q+ 17:46:18 -Alan_Ruttenberg 17:46:19 zakim, who is talking 17:46:19 I don't understand 'who is talking', JeffP 17:46:41 alanr: jeremy, would doing things with requirements later damage our process 17:46:44 q? 17:46:47 Note: charter says that requirements are "A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1" 17:46:49 ack jjc 17:46:49 jjc, you wanted to note requirements logically precede 17:47:01 +Alan_Ruttenberg 17:47:35 ianh: charter says that requirement doc is a description of how owl 1.1 was developed 17:47:37 +1 IanH 17:47:52 Zakim, mute me 17:47:52 jjc should now be muted 17:47:54 q? 17:47:55 ack vipul 17:48:14 -1 to internal review 17:48:26 vipul: shouldn't there be an internal review before the WDs are published 17:49:43 q? 17:50:30 vipul: my votes on other issues depend on this issue 17:50:43 zakim, unmute me 17:50:43 bijan should no longer be muted 17:51:17 bijan: first WG is first *public* WD 17:51:39 ianh: can we move the documents to editor's drafts to have the same effect 17:52:04 alanr: Q1 are the three documents the ones to target for first WDs 17:52:25 PROPOSED-1 :Our first working drafts, to be published before the 3-month heartbeat, will be: Structural Specification, Semantics, RDF Mapping, based closely on http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/ 17:52:26 alanr: Q2 when should we make the three documents be WDs 17:52:32 +q 17:53:08 ?q 17:53:16 PROPOSED: Our first working drafts, to be published before the 3-month heartbeat, will be: Structural Specification, Semantics, RDF Mapping, based on the text for each of these at http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/ 17:53:55 q+ to suggest s/will be:/will be one or more of:/ 17:53:57 PROPOSED: Our first working drafts, to be published before the 3-month heartbeat, will be: (1) Structural Specification, (2) Semantics, (3) RDF Mapping, based on the text for each of these at http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/ 17:53:58 bijan: there was requirements work going into owl 1.1, but no doc was make 17:54:08 s/make/made 17:54:26 zakim, mute me 17:54:26 zakim, who is talking? 17:54:27 bijan: putting requirements doc first would significantly delay technical work 17:54:27 bijan should now be muted 17:54:41 sandro, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Alan_Ruttenberg (42%), Sandro (87%) 17:54:44 No 17:55:02 Zakim, unmute me 17:55:02 jjc should no longer be muted 17:55:11 Evan: Are we implying that SS fills the role of the descriptive spec? 17:55:36 I do think we might evolve the structural specification toward a descriptive as well a formal specification, but that's a distinct decision. 17:55:47 Ian: No -- we're implying that these three dovument form the technical spec 17:56:11 s/dovu/docu/ 17:56:13 q? 17:56:18 ack bijan 17:56:22 ack ekw 17:56:24 ack jjc 17:56:24 jjc, you wanted to suggest s/will be:/will be one or more of:/ 17:56:44 PROPOSED: Our first working drafts, to be published before the 3-month heartbeat, will be one or more of: (1) Structural Specification, (2) Semantics, (3) RDF Mapping, based on the text for each of these at http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/ 17:57:24 PROPOSED: Our first working drafts, to be published before the 3-month heartbeat, will be one: (1) Structural Specification, (2) Semantics. We may include (3) RDF Mapping in this list. These are based on the text for each of these at http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/ 17:57:32 The current docuemnts are already hugely public. Publishing as WD does not endorse the current design. We know it will changed. We know all three will be changed. Many times. 17:57:59 jjc: HP may object to (3), so let's make it optional. 17:58:39 zakim, mute me 17:58:39 bijan should now be muted 17:58:41 RESOLVED: Our first working drafts, to be published before the 3-month heartbeat, will be one: (1) Structural Specification, (2) Semantics. We may include (3) RDF Mapping in this list. These are based on the text for each of these at http://www.webont.org/owl/1.1/ 17:58:59 Which discussion? 17:59:06 -Vipul_Kashyap 17:59:23 +1 to proposing discussion of document roles and task forces to next week 17:59:27 q+ 17:59:28 +1 17:59:31 Alan: next topic was to be authors/editors role, task areas.... I propose we put these off until next week. 17:59:34 pfps has joined #owl 17:59:35 zakim, unmute me 17:59:35 bijan should no longer be muted 17:59:35 +1 17:59:40 ack bijan 17:59:44 q? 18:00:17 zakim, mute me 18:00:17 bijan should now be muted 18:00:18 +1 on Bijan's suggestion for email discussion of postponed items 18:00:21 Bijan: When we postpone things, let's talk about it on the mailing list. 18:00:35 zakim, unmute me 18:00:35 bijan should no longer be muted 18:00:39 Alan: I can create the draft of the next agenda early, and send that out, to help start discussion. 18:00:50 Bijan: It doesn't need to be the whole agenda, although that's fine. 18:00:50 zakim, mute me 18:00:50 bijan should now be muted 18:00:50 E-mail discussions can be tedious, though. 18:00:59 +1 18:01:05 There's a secodn proposal 18:01:18 -Evan_Wallace 18:01:18 +1 bye 18:01:20 -jjc 18:01:23 -MikeSmith 18:01:24 bye 18:01:24 -Fabien 18:01:25 decision to adjourn, as per Alan's proposal. 18:01:25 -Elisa_Kendall 18:01:26 -bijan 18:01:27 ADJOURN 18:01:28 -JeffP 18:01:28 -Alan_Ruttenberg 18:01:30 -Ian 18:01:33 -MarkusK 18:01:41 -bmotik 18:01:42 So we postpone the second decision as well? 18:01:42 -Achille 18:02:00 I guess so, Bijan! Oops. 18:02:09 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:02:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/17-owl-minutes.html sandro 18:02:25 I was trying to unmute to point this out when everyone bailed :) 18:02:56 How about I send an email about this? 18:02:59 Since it's my proposal? 18:04:08 -Sandro 18:04:12 -pfps 18:04:13 SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended 18:04:14 Attendees were Sandro, bijan, Achille, Alan_Ruttenberg, bmotik, +1.301.975.aaaa, Elisa_Kendall, MikeSmith, +018652aacc, Vipul_Kashyap, pfps, Fabien, jjc, Ian, +012242aadd, JeffP, 18:04:16 ... MarkusK, Evan_Wallace 18:04:26 I think that makes sense. 18:04:33 Doing so 18:05:53 alanr has joined #owl 18:08:35 alanr has left #owl 18:22:36 GiorgosStoilos has joined #owl