13:12:59 RRSAgent has joined #aria 13:12:59 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/17-aria-irc 13:13:17 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:13:35 Rich has joined #aria 13:14:32 RRSAgent, make log member 13:14:57 Can we agree on a way to adopt role between xml markups that will also be consumed by HTML and how would this be consumed by SVG? 13:14:57 How can we support base ARIA role values without requiring a namespace (a request of the HTML working group)? 13:14:57 Would the use of aria-property be acceptable for xhtml and html and how would this be consumed by SVG? 13:14:57 How do we support role values in xml-based markup and html based mark up? 13:15:09 I got the note 13:21:45 aaronlev has joined #aria 13:21:58 scribe: Rich 13:22:08 Topic: use of aria-property 13:22:40 Doug: can use aria namespace to reference aria 13:23:19 henri: authors need to know how to implemnt aria support in svg browsers/plugins 13:23:44 Doug: the place to state this is in ARIA and this could be coordinated with SVG 13:24:55 henri: If svg agreed that all aria properties are defined in the aria spec. then are ok. 13:25:17 Doug: by puttin aria- as the prefix you are actually name spacing 13:25:23 s/puttin/putting/ 13:25:51 Doug: we don't need to import the complexity of namespaces in an aria spec to address namespaces 13:26:34 Doug: there is no complexity that is solved 13:27:14 Anne: You can use aribitrary prefixes 13:27:37 Aaron: you cannot use colons for attribute selectors in Internet explorer 13:27:59 Doug: I just want to establish that we are using namespaces no matter what. Can we agree on that? 13:28:45 Henri: I think you are confusing the issue. 13:28:51 Doug: I am clarifying it 13:29:29 Rich: you are just saying that we are using namespacing by even using aria- even though we are not using the namespace syntax 13:29:51 Doug: yes you are avoiding using the namespace syntax. 13:30:22 Doug: the only thing old validators know about are using the : prefix 13:30:51 Doug: anything that is w3c specified would have a problem w/o the : 13:31:55 Anne: you said it would break all user agents if you used aria-. 13:32:13 Doug: we would require buy in by all the vendors. Not saying we can't but it is a big job. 13:33:19 Henri: I can support either the : or - syntax in xml. But if are using svg in text/html using the : way and addressing all the namespaces that come with it we will have a problem since the - or : is invalid 13:33:52 Doug: I did not mean validators. There are other things, besides validators, which would also need to come into line. 13:35:09 Doug: There are things out there that generate SVG and integrate SVG into other namespaces. For example, docbook uses SVG. SVG is included in othter documents like military drawings. 13:35:28 Doug: it is not a simple matter of these things changing. 13:35:43 Doug: we just state that we ignore unknown attributes. 13:37:14 Henri: if the SVG tools followed the rules we are discussing this would not be an issue. 13:37:27 (that was Anne) 13:37:34 (I agree, though) 13:37:38 thanks henri 13:38:47 Doug: I can see where it is possible to include aria- as a special way of namespacing going forward. 13:39:46 Doug: to be clear, there was a statement before that arbitrary namespaces will work in svg and that is not true. 13:40:10 Henri: we should be using relax schema technology 13:40:32 Doug: I just want to make sure that it was not a correct statement about namespaces. 13:40:40 Anne: svg 1.2 does not use dtds 13:40:51 Anne: browser vendors don't use dtds 13:41:30 Doug: someone made a statement about the flexibity of the - syntax over the : syntax allowed you to process arbitrary strings and that is not true 13:42:29 Doug: it is stated in the xml namespaces spec. that you can use the : prefix. 13:42:48 Anne: you can fix it in the dtd and it is pre-declared. 13:43:17 Anne: the whole point of namespace is that you can use whatever you want 13:44:20 henri: using a - instead of a : makes it easier to integrate in html going down the road. 13:45:06 s/henri: using a - instead of a : makes it easier to integrate in html going down the road. /anne: using a - instead of a : makes it easier to integrate in html going down the road. / 13:47:10 Henri: because we want the html parser to parse existing content and we want new stuff to not break in new browsers we cannot make : act any different in current browsers 13:47:59 Henri: if we are going to use svg in html in IE it will be much easier to do it without : 13:48:45 Rich: so the problem is that IE does not handle the : 13:50:03 Henri: IE does something special with the : in that the conformant DOM. It is a mess. 13:50:49 Aaron: I just wanted to use aria: and I could not use a CSS rule to address namespaces 13:51:33 Aaron: you can use | instead of : in CSS to reference prefixed properties in IE. The hyphen works fine in CSS, the content, everywhere. 13:52:16 Aaron: there is a problem which CSS introduced and it is in a problem with IE 13:53:05 Doug: hyphen is not a good deliminter as it is used throughout SVG. 13:53:19 s/deliminter/delimiter/ 13:53:32 Aaron: where is - a problem in SVG 13:53:44 Doug: |-width 13:54:24 Doug: you can use presentation properties. 13:54:48 Henri: this is not a problem as we are not trying to introduce it as a namespace delimiter. 13:55:15 Doug: there is a lot of working going on with other web application formats 13:55:31 Doug: we want for othter groups to import aria into their specs. 13:56:49 Doug: my point is we want open and closed formats to be able to use. 13:57:37 Aaron: I think Doug is saying that he is open to using hyphen but he wants to go through all the thoughts about it. 13:57:58 Doug: yes. 13:58:49 Doug: I am open to using a - and I am still not convinced that : can be used in html 14:01:07 Doug: does aria work now in IE? 14:02:55 Aaron: with a - you can can trigger dynamic updates but without (:) you can 14:03:28 Aaron: you have to work around IE problems when you develop cross-browser script 14:04:20 Aaron: you don't get anything automatically and people describe what they are doing. 14:04:31 Aaron: aria does not drive the behavior 14:09:01 Doug: The - syntax is problematic with multiple user agents as it should be more generic than just aria 14:09:34 Rich: what about underscore? 14:12:26 Doug: I proposed if SVG were to import role we will accept this. but we were then split 14:13:37 Aaron: please propose aria- or aria_ as a compromise to SVG 14:13:43 Topic: role 14:15:00 Doug: SVG does not care if role is in or out of the xhtml namespace. 14:16:09 Doug: we don't want to get attacked on role 14:17:29 Doug: the people who are implementing svg tiny would be a problem. adding role would require going back to last call 14:18:23 Doug: we could add role as part of the core language in a future release. 14:18:42 Henri: both role and aria need to be allowed on all elements 14:18:52 Doug: I think this is an orthogonal issues 14:19:02 (that was Anne again :-) 14:19:03 s/this is/these are 14:20:45 henri: I think versioning could address how aria is done 14:23:21 rather, I think versioning should get in the way of doing aria 14:23:29 shouldn't 14:23:48 (I don't really believe in Web language versioning) 14:24:24 Doug: if we had a chart syntax ... these charts have these values is great 14:25:08 aaron: lets work together and get compatible. 14:26:20 Doug: having fixed namespaced prefixes with _ is a good way to move forward 14:32:45 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:32:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/17-aria-minutes.html anne 14:32:54 RRSAgent, make log public 14:33:27 meeting: Cross cutting ARIA property issue discussion 14:33:34 chair: Rich 14:34:12 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:34:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/17-aria-minutes.html Rich 14:40:07 anne has left #aria 14:41:06 hsivonen has left #aria