IRC log of aria on 2007-10-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:12:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
13:12:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:13:17 [anne]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:13:35 [Rich]
Rich has joined #aria
13:14:32 [Rich]
RRSAgent, make log member
13:14:57 [Rich]
Can we agree on a way to adopt role between xml markups that will also be consumed by HTML and how would this be consumed by SVG?
13:14:57 [Rich]
How can we support base ARIA role values without requiring a namespace (a request of the HTML working group)?
13:14:57 [Rich]
Would the use of aria-property be acceptable for xhtml and html and how would this be consumed by SVG?
13:14:57 [Rich]
How do we support role values in xml-based markup and html based mark up?
13:15:09 [hsivonen]
I got the note
13:21:45 [aaronlev]
aaronlev has joined #aria
13:21:58 [Rich]
scribe: Rich
13:22:08 [Rich]
Topic: use of aria-property
13:22:40 [Rich]
Doug: can use aria namespace to reference aria
13:23:19 [Rich]
henri: authors need to know how to implemnt aria support in svg browsers/plugins
13:23:44 [Rich]
Doug: the place to state this is in ARIA and this could be coordinated with SVG
13:24:55 [Rich]
henri: If svg agreed that all aria properties are defined in the aria spec. then are ok.
13:25:17 [Rich]
Doug: by puttin aria- as the prefix you are actually name spacing
13:25:23 [Rich]
13:25:51 [Rich]
Doug: we don't need to import the complexity of namespaces in an aria spec to address namespaces
13:26:34 [Rich]
Doug: there is no complexity that is solved
13:27:14 [Rich]
Anne: You can use aribitrary prefixes
13:27:37 [Rich]
Aaron: you cannot use colons for attribute selectors in Internet explorer
13:27:59 [Rich]
Doug: I just want to establish that we are using namespaces no matter what. Can we agree on that?
13:28:45 [Rich]
Henri: I think you are confusing the issue.
13:28:51 [Rich]
Doug: I am clarifying it
13:29:29 [Rich]
Rich: you are just saying that we are using namespacing by even using aria- even though we are not using the namespace syntax
13:29:51 [Rich]
Doug: yes you are avoiding using the namespace syntax.
13:30:22 [Rich]
Doug: the only thing old validators know about are using the : prefix
13:30:51 [Rich]
Doug: anything that is w3c specified would have a problem w/o the :
13:31:55 [Rich]
Anne: you said it would break all user agents if you used aria-.
13:32:13 [Rich]
Doug: we would require buy in by all the vendors. Not saying we can't but it is a big job.
13:33:19 [Rich]
Henri: I can support either the : or - syntax in xml. But if are using svg in text/html using the : way and addressing all the namespaces that come with it we will have a problem since the - or : is invalid
13:33:52 [Rich]
Doug: I did not mean validators. There are other things, besides validators, which would also need to come into line.
13:35:09 [Rich]
Doug: There are things out there that generate SVG and integrate SVG into other namespaces. For example, docbook uses SVG. SVG is included in othter documents like military drawings.
13:35:28 [Rich]
Doug: it is not a simple matter of these things changing.
13:35:43 [Rich]
Doug: we just state that we ignore unknown attributes.
13:37:14 [Rich]
Henri: if the SVG tools followed the rules we are discussing this would not be an issue.
13:37:27 [hsivonen]
(that was Anne)
13:37:34 [hsivonen]
(I agree, though)
13:37:38 [Rich]
thanks henri
13:38:47 [Rich]
Doug: I can see where it is possible to include aria- as a special way of namespacing going forward.
13:39:46 [Rich]
Doug: to be clear, there was a statement before that arbitrary namespaces will work in svg and that is not true.
13:40:10 [Rich]
Henri: we should be using relax schema technology
13:40:32 [Rich]
Doug: I just want to make sure that it was not a correct statement about namespaces.
13:40:40 [Rich]
Anne: svg 1.2 does not use dtds
13:40:51 [Rich]
Anne: browser vendors don't use dtds
13:41:30 [Rich]
Doug: someone made a statement about the flexibity of the - syntax over the : syntax allowed you to process arbitrary strings and that is not true
13:42:29 [Rich]
Doug: it is stated in the xml namespaces spec. that you can use the : prefix.
13:42:48 [Rich]
Anne: you can fix it in the dtd and it is pre-declared.
13:43:17 [Rich]
Anne: the whole point of namespace is that you can use whatever you want
13:44:20 [Rich]
henri: using a - instead of a : makes it easier to integrate in html going down the road.
13:45:06 [Rich]
s/henri: using a - instead of a : makes it easier to integrate in html going down the road. /anne: using a - instead of a : makes it easier to integrate in html going down the road. /
13:47:10 [Rich]
Henri: because we want the html parser to parse existing content and we want new stuff to not break in new browsers we cannot make : act any different in current browsers
13:47:59 [Rich]
Henri: if we are going to use svg in html in IE it will be much easier to do it without :
13:48:45 [Rich]
Rich: so the problem is that IE does not handle the :
13:50:03 [Rich]
Henri: IE does something special with the : in that the conformant DOM. It is a mess.
13:50:49 [Rich]
Aaron: I just wanted to use aria: and I could not use a CSS rule to address namespaces
13:51:33 [Rich]
Aaron: you can use | instead of : in CSS to reference prefixed properties in IE. The hyphen works fine in CSS, the content, everywhere.
13:52:16 [Rich]
Aaron: there is a problem which CSS introduced and it is in a problem with IE
13:53:05 [Rich]
Doug: hyphen is not a good deliminter as it is used throughout SVG.
13:53:19 [Rich]
13:53:32 [Rich]
Aaron: where is - a problem in SVG
13:53:44 [Rich]
Doug: |-width
13:54:24 [Rich]
Doug: you can use presentation properties.
13:54:48 [Rich]
Henri: this is not a problem as we are not trying to introduce it as a namespace delimiter.
13:55:15 [Rich]
Doug: there is a lot of working going on with other web application formats
13:55:31 [Rich]
Doug: we want for othter groups to import aria into their specs.
13:56:49 [Rich]
Doug: my point is we want open and closed formats to be able to use.
13:57:37 [Rich]
Aaron: I think Doug is saying that he is open to using hyphen but he wants to go through all the thoughts about it.
13:57:58 [Rich]
Doug: yes.
13:58:49 [Rich]
Doug: I am open to using a - and I am still not convinced that : can be used in html
14:01:07 [Rich]
Doug: does aria work now in IE?
14:02:55 [Rich]
Aaron: with a - you can can trigger dynamic updates but without (:) you can
14:03:28 [Rich]
Aaron: you have to work around IE problems when you develop cross-browser script
14:04:20 [Rich]
Aaron: you don't get anything automatically and people describe what they are doing.
14:04:31 [Rich]
Aaron: aria does not drive the behavior
14:09:01 [Rich]
Doug: The - syntax is problematic with multiple user agents as it should be more generic than just aria
14:09:34 [Rich]
Rich: what about underscore?
14:12:26 [Rich]
Doug: I proposed if SVG were to import role we will accept this. but we were then split
14:13:37 [Rich]
Aaron: please propose aria- or aria_ as a compromise to SVG
14:13:43 [Rich]
Topic: role
14:15:00 [Rich]
Doug: SVG does not care if role is in or out of the xhtml namespace.
14:16:09 [Rich]
Doug: we don't want to get attacked on role
14:17:29 [Rich]
Doug: the people who are implementing svg tiny would be a problem. adding role would require going back to last call
14:18:23 [Rich]
Doug: we could add role as part of the core language in a future release.
14:18:42 [Rich]
Henri: both role and aria need to be allowed on all elements
14:18:52 [Rich]
Doug: I think this is an orthogonal issues
14:19:02 [hsivonen]
(that was Anne again :-)
14:19:03 [Rich]
s/this is/these are
14:20:45 [Rich]
henri: I think versioning could address how aria is done
14:23:21 [hsivonen]
rather, I think versioning should get in the way of doing aria
14:23:29 [hsivonen]
14:23:48 [hsivonen]
(I don't really believe in Web language versioning)
14:24:24 [Rich]
Doug: if we had a chart syntax ... these charts have these values is great
14:25:08 [Rich]
aaron: lets work together and get compatible.
14:26:20 [Rich]
Doug: having fixed namespaced prefixes with _ is a good way to move forward
14:32:45 [anne]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:32:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate anne
14:32:54 [anne]
RRSAgent, make log public
14:33:27 [Rich]
meeting: Cross cutting ARIA property issue discussion
14:33:34 [Rich]
chair: Rich
14:34:12 [Rich]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:34:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Rich
14:40:07 [anne]
anne has left #aria
14:41:06 [hsivonen]
hsivonen has left #aria