16:49:11 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 16:49:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-tagmem-irc 16:49:21 zakim, this will be tag 16:49:21 ok, Stuart; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes 16:49:38 Chair: Stuart 16:49:45 Scribe: Rhys 16:50:08 Meeting: TAG Weekly Telcon 16:50:13 DanC has joined #tagmem 16:50:47 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/13-agenda 16:53:32 Rhys has joined #tagmem 16:54:26 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started 16:54:33 + +077647aaaa 16:56:06 Noah has joined #tagmem 16:57:03 xakim, 07764 is Rhys 16:57:08 zakim, 07764 is Rhys 16:57:08 sorry, Rhys, I do not recognize a party named '07764' 16:57:19 zakim, aaaa is Rhys 16:57:19 +Rhys; got it 16:57:44 Scribe: Rhys 16:57:51 Scribenick: Rhys 16:57:54 Chair: Stuart 16:58:01 +??P8 16:58:30 zakim, ?? is me 16:58:30 +Stuart; got it 16:58:47 -Rhys 17:00:15 zakim, who is here? 17:00:15 On the phone I see Stuart 17:00:17 On IRC I see Noah, Rhys, DanC, RRSAgent, Stuart, trackbot-ng, ht, Norm, Zakim 17:00:53 +Raman 17:01:05 zakim, please call ht-781 17:01:05 ok, ht; the call is being made 17:01:07 +Ht 17:01:25 +DanC 17:01:27 raman has joined #tagmem 17:02:42 Stuart, there is progress to report on the wiki 17:02:48 sorry... on the blog, rather 17:02:57 Ok... 17:03:09 I could do it now while we're booting 17:04:04 +Rhys 17:04:22 +Dave_Orchard 17:05:22 scribe: Henry S. Thompson 17:05:26 scribenick: ht 17:05:45 meeting: TAG telcon 17:06:03 SW: Propose to approve 4 October minutes 17:06:06 DC: OK 17:06:14 +1 approve http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes 17:06:19 RESOLVED: Minutes of 4 October as distributed 17:06:42 Topic: Telcon on 18 October 17:06:43 +Norm 17:06:48 DO: Regrets 17:06:54 RL: Regrets 17:07:10 NW: I can scribe 17:08:28 NW: Regrets for 25 Oct and 1 Nov 17:09:09 Topic: Session at Tech Plenary 17:09:28 Tantek Celik and Ian Hickson have agreed to be on the panel 17:09:44 trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem 17:09:50 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ 17:11:11 s/Tantek/DO: Tantek 17:11:31 DO: TimBL has agreed to be on the panel, I'd like one more TAG member 17:14:36 DO: Three issues that are asking for discussion: microformats -- are or are not URI-based extensibility? 17:14:43 http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-TechPlenAgenda.html 17:14:44 trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem 17:14:51 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ 17:15:22 ... another topic was the question of how namespaces should be added to XHTML 17:15:38 ... and deprecating attributes which are in the way of extensibility 17:16:11 ... Ian Hickson will pbly mostly say we aren't going to get there 17:16:12 agenda + IETF coordination telcon coming up; agenda input? 17:17:00 ... I have begun to think maybe there's something to this -- easy-to-author and URI-based extensibility are pretty much in conflict 17:21:34 SW: Around the table to see what people feel like 17:22:40 DO: My preference would be to ask DC, with his HTML WG hat on 17:22:47 DC: OK, I'll do it 17:24:49 -Dave_Orchard 17:24:54 Topic: Issue httpRedirections-57 (ISSUE-57) 17:25:23 trackbot-ng, ACTION-46 is done 17:25:42 SW: Norm, state of Action-46? 17:25:47 Closed 17:25:51 NW: No further comments 17:26:00 trackbot-ng, ACTION-46 is closed 17:27:11 SW: Lots of threads on www-tag, on httpRange-14 and httpRedirections-57 17:27:27 q+ to discuss collaboration tactics 17:27:32 ... One on alternatives to 'resource', converging on 'thing' 17:28:50 SW: Are people disposed to make this change? 17:29:00 HST: No -- compare 'referent' 17:29:10 ... but I didn't read the thread 17:29:27 DC: But there's a previous understanding of the word, so it's not a good choice 17:30:01 ... you can allocate resources, or deallocate them, they can be accessed. . . 17:30:06 HST: OK, I see 17:30:24 ack danc 17:30:24 DanC, you wanted to discuss collaboration tactics 17:30:51 DC: In a tutorial context, maybe we don't need a name at all -- perhaps the editor of the Cool URIs spec. could try to avoid a name altogether 17:31:07 ... failing which 'thing' has some good properties 17:31:24 DC: Who has the ball? Us or the editor? 17:31:27 SW: Don't know 17:32:12 DC: I'd like to have a clear expectation of how the process is going forward -- we make comments and get quick turnaround, or the editor has gone away for a few weeks and will be back for a draft, or . . . 17:32:42 ... What I'd like is two or three weeks of low-latency interaction with the editor(s) -- if not this two-or-three, some other is fine 17:32:52 trackbot-ng, status 17:33:44 trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem 17:33:50 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ 17:33:55 ACTION: Stuart to contact editors of Cool URIs to determine when/how to carry our interaction forward. . . 17:34:29 trackbot-ng, Action to Stuart to contact editors of Cool URIs to determine when/how to carry our interaction forward. . . 17:34:56 SW: Rhys, where are we wrt httpRange-14? 17:35:21 q+ to ask, with some hesitation, about denote vs identify 17:35:37 s/httpRange-14/HTTP Resources and Endpoints/ 17:35:52 RL: I've been letting this rest for a bit -- I didn't feel I had much support for trying to pin down what was in common between all 200s and at least 303s. . . 17:36:00 HST: You convinced _me_! 17:36:13 ack dan 17:36:13 DanC, you wanted to ask, with some hesitation, about denote vs identify 17:36:46 DC: 'resource' vs. 'thing' is editorial, but there's a technical distinction between 'denote' and 'identify' which Pat Hayes is trying to make 17:36:51 ... Anybody get that? 17:37:18 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ 17:37:26 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ 17:37:29 (I'm clear on 'access' vs 'identify', but not 'identify' vs name/denote) 17:37:34 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ 17:37:38 Created ACTION-64 - to contact editors of Cool URIs to determine when/how to carry our interaction forward. . . [on Stuart Williams - due 2007-10-18]. 17:38:02 SW: There are two senses in which we use the word 'identify' wrt URIs -- one meaning 'access' -- the URI as a way of getting at something, vs. one a URI appears in a piece of text we're using it like a name, w/o any interest in accessing, or any implication that it _can_ be accessed 17:38:44 DC: I don't hear anyone using 'identify' in the 'access' sense 17:38:57 [scribe missed SW's reply] 17:39:47 SW: The intention of the web arch. is that URIs denote, and sometimes are a means of access 17:40:10 ... another point is that a name can refer to many different things, which is at odds 17:40:24 DC: I still don't hear how identify isn't a synonym of denote 17:40:50 ... and then there's the 'rigid designator' idea 17:41:14 SW: That's what he's offering . . . 17:43:09 HST: 'rigid designator' for me turns out to be an unsatisfiable concept -- we don't have any in practice 17:43:18 DC: But 'Paris' works, and so do URIs 17:43:55 HST: Agreed, they just don't satisfy the literal interpretation of 'rigid designator' as something which always and everywhere denotes the same thing 17:44:13 topic: XML Schema language URIs 17:44:33 DC: What about this thing in the new Schema 1.1 draft 17:46:17 dorchard has joined #tagmem 17:47:27 +Dave_Orchard 17:47:41 HST: I think this is accidental, not the result of a carefully thought through analysis 17:48:05 DC: I would like to suggest they add a #language -- would that work for all of us? 17:48:54 HST: I think I prefer not -- perhaps we should use this as a good concrete case to work this through as an example of what we want the cool URIs doc't to say 17:49:14 ... I would prefer 303 17:49:21 SW: NW: similar 17:49:34 SW: We'll put this one up on a whiteboard at the November f2f 17:49:42 HST: Schema group are not focussed on this right now 17:50:06 SW: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Sep/thread.html#msg148 17:50:13 ... Which URI should be persistent when redirects are used? 17:50:44 trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem 17:50:50 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ 17:51:11 Misha tells the story behind "which should be persistent" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Sep/0154.html 17:51:29 DC: [They] are making up URIs for the Mona Lisa 17:51:42 s/[They]/IPTC/ 17:52:09 DC: Again, this is the audience we hope will read Cool URIs. . . --- what should they do? 17:52:25 HST: Did the thread converge? 17:52:54 DC: No -- I suggested a # solution, we want back and forth on that vs. 303, no resolution. . . 17:53:01 "The IPTC is likely to approve the NewsML-G2 specification at our 17:53:01 meeting in Prague in mid-October." 17:53:24 HST: Sounds like we've missed their cutoff. . . 17:55:02 HST: Until we have a document, threads will fail to converge and that's to be expected 17:55:20 SW: Yes, and I have an action to move that document along 17:55:29 topic: namespaceDocument-8 -- new draft 17:55:44 trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem 17:55:49 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/nsDocuments-2007-10-05/ 17:55:50 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ 17:56:46 need to drop off in 3 minutes ... 17:56:58 -Raman 17:58:43 (stuart and I are using the due dates as "next time you want this to be discussed in a tag meeting") 17:58:53 HST: I produced the revision based on the informal presentation at the f2f 18:03:38 ... One outstanding question I'd like advice on -- is 'natureKey' a DatatypeProperty or an ObjectProperty ? 18:04:33 DC: Not sure. . . 18:05:20 the blank node is a nature:Object 18:05:36 ... I guess the name natureKey suggests string rather than thing 18:06:14 SW: I feel like the 'purpose' relation runs the wrong way 18:06:46 DC: Look rather at the instances -- schemaValidation, normativeReference 18:07:17 SW: The first diagram 18:08:08 DC: schemaValidation isn't an instance of Purpose 18:08:10 SW: Yes it is 18:08:19 HST: Please check the ontology, DanC 18:08:22 (subproperty) 18:08:42 SW: Take this to email 18:09:07 ACTION: Norm or Henry to fix the first two diagram 18:09:07 Sorry, couldn't find user - Norm 18:09:41 ACTION: Henry to look at the name of the Purpose property class to see if we can't do better 18:09:41 Sorry, couldn't find user - Henry 18:09:58 trackbot-ng, status 18:10:09 ACTION: Henry S. to look at the name of the Purpose property class to see if we can't do better 18:10:19 ACTION: Henry S. to look at the name of the Purpose property class to see if we can't do better 18:10:19 Sorry, couldn't find user - Henry 18:10:27 phphpt. 18:11:21 (I'm not optimistic about improving on "purpose"; I suggest an ed note to say "these words are a little awkward due to the awkwardness of 3-ary relations in RDF. life goes on.") 18:12:01 Henry may find SWBPD writing on N-ary relations useful: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/ 18:13:12 SW: I picked up another problem -- 'identify' gets used a lot 18:14:04 DC: Also, this document isn't done until the first ednotes is addressed 18:14:25 HST: Wrt SW's point, until WebArch changes I don't see the issue 18:14:47 Topic: Mobile AJAX Workshop 18:14:58 SW: Talk about this now? 18:15:47 DC: So minutes suggests the next step is a report 18:15:55 ... any progress towards a f2f meeting? 18:16:03 http://www.w3.org/2007/06/mobile-ajax/report.html 18:16:10 RL: Report is out: http://www.w3.org/2007/06/mobile-ajax/report.html 18:17:20 DC: Ah -- report bucks next steps squarely into lap of W3C. . .where will the resource come from ? 18:17:36 SW: Anything on the plenary agenda about this? 18:17:43 ... Lightening talk? 18:17:56 HST: That's a good idea, if they're not full 18:18:27 DC: People there from Dojo and the other big library builders, right? 18:19:00 RL: Prototype, Scriptaculous, Yahoo, Google, Microsoft 18:19:09 DC: IBM contribute, or have their own? 18:19:24 RL: I don't know if what they've got is packaged as a library 18:19:43 ... IBM's secure mashup approach (SMASH) was discussed 18:20:16 DC: RL, are you tracking this stuff personally? 18:20:41 RL: Yes, I chair the Mobile taskforce at Open AJAX Alliance -- think of that as rather like an XG 18:21:06 ... We're doing a whitepaper giving an intro to what Mobile AJAX is 18:21:55 local access 18:21:59 ... and an API/library to give access to for example device capabilities 18:22:04 q? 18:22:05 local access to device capabilities 18:22:23 DC: Logistics of the taskforce? 18:22:51 RL: All email and telcons -- f2f is only plenary, for whole Alliance, so next one in the spring some time 18:23:04 DC: Any of the AJAX library guys going to be at the tech plenary 18:23:10 http://www.openajax.org/ 18:23:31 RL: Not sure how many are even W3C members -- see http://www.openajax.org/ for the OpenAJAX membership 18:24:56 RL: I did ask the question at the plenary whether they thought WebArch was OK from their perspective 18:25:12 ... perhaps half had read it, and they were pretty much OK with what they found there 18:25:31 ... This was particularly in the area of state for URIs 18:27:04 HST: The whole client-side persistence thing is mushrooming fast 18:27:14 ... perhaps we should look at this at some point 18:27:45 RL: Indeed the mobile ajax taskforce is looking at that as well 18:28:54 DC: I hope we can just trust them to get it right 18:29:07 ... so we can leave it be for a while 18:29:37 -Dave_Orchard 18:29:38 HST: I agree we can leave it, but for a different reason 18:30:01 -Ht 18:30:03 -Norm 18:30:04 -Stuart 18:30:10 - +077647aabb 18:30:15 (IETF/W3C telcon seems to be 2 weeks from 9 Oct, so it can wait a week) 18:30:46 ... We've already tacitly agreed to ignore the architectural impact of the fact that most web pages today are constructed on the client by Javascript anyway 18:30:58 DC: We haven't ignored it, we wrote the Least Power finding 18:31:04 HST: Which people are ignoring 18:31:29 DC: No they're not, [xxx] wrote a book about ?Unobtrusive? Javascript, and it's having a big impact 18:31:41 HST: Gee, not from what I see coming at my browser 18:32:31 DC: Yes, well, Sturgeon's Law applies ("Ninety percent of everything is crap") 18:32:43 RRSAgent, draft minutes 18:32:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-tagmem-minutes.html ht 18:32:43 http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/ ; see also http://www.alistapart.com/articles/behavioralseparation by Jeremy Keith 18:32:54 RRSAgent, make logs world-visible 18:32:59 Zakim, bye 18:32:59 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +077647aaaa, Rhys, Stuart, Raman, Ht, DanC, Dave_Orchard, Norm 18:32:59 Zakim has left #tagmem 18:33:28 DanC, thanks for pointers 18:33:31 Will include in minutes 18:33:36 "Disciplined application of best practices to avoid the problems of traditional JavaScript programming (such as browser inconsistencies and lack of scalability)" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtrusive_JavaScript 18:34:36 (hmm... maybe I should write an item on the tag blog to link the finding to that recent work) 18:36:04 Hmm, I was just thinking I should make this the subject of my first ever blog piece! 18:40:05 be my guest 18:43:44 trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem 18:43:50 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ 19:20:03 raman has left #tagmem 19:46:45 trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem 19:46:51 Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ 21:31:34 Norm has joined #tagmem 21:35:37 Noah has joined #tagmem 21:52:51 Norm has joined #tagmem 21:55:07 Norm has joined #tagmem 23:34:22 noah2 has joined #tagmem