IRC log of tagmem on 2007-10-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:49:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
16:49:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-tagmem-irc
16:49:21 [Stuart]
zakim, this will be tag
16:49:21 [Zakim]
ok, Stuart; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
16:49:38 [Stuart]
Chair: Stuart
16:49:45 [Stuart]
Scribe: Rhys
16:50:08 [Stuart]
Meeting: TAG Weekly Telcon
16:50:13 [DanC]
DanC has joined #tagmem
16:50:47 [Stuart]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/13-agenda
16:53:32 [Rhys]
Rhys has joined #tagmem
16:54:26 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
16:54:33 [Zakim]
+ +077647aaaa
16:56:06 [Noah]
Noah has joined #tagmem
16:57:03 [Rhys]
xakim, 07764 is Rhys
16:57:08 [Rhys]
zakim, 07764 is Rhys
16:57:08 [Zakim]
sorry, Rhys, I do not recognize a party named '07764'
16:57:19 [Rhys]
zakim, aaaa is Rhys
16:57:19 [Zakim]
+Rhys; got it
16:57:44 [Rhys]
Scribe: Rhys
16:57:51 [Rhys]
Scribenick: Rhys
16:57:54 [Rhys]
Chair: Stuart
16:58:01 [Zakim]
+??P8
16:58:30 [Stuart]
zakim, ?? is me
16:58:30 [Zakim]
+Stuart; got it
16:58:47 [Zakim]
-Rhys
17:00:15 [Stuart]
zakim, who is here?
17:00:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Stuart
17:00:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Noah, Rhys, DanC, RRSAgent, Stuart, trackbot-ng, ht, Norm, Zakim
17:00:53 [Zakim]
+Raman
17:01:05 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
17:01:05 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
17:01:07 [Zakim]
+Ht
17:01:25 [Zakim]
+DanC
17:01:27 [raman]
raman has joined #tagmem
17:02:42 [DanC]
Stuart, there is progress to report on the wiki
17:02:48 [DanC]
sorry... on the blog, rather
17:02:57 [Stuart]
Ok...
17:03:09 [DanC]
I could do it now while we're booting
17:04:04 [Zakim]
+Rhys
17:04:22 [Zakim]
+Dave_Orchard
17:05:22 [ht]
scribe: Henry S. Thompson
17:05:26 [ht]
scribenick: ht
17:05:45 [ht]
meeting: TAG telcon
17:06:03 [ht]
SW: Propose to approve 4 October minutes
17:06:06 [ht]
DC: OK
17:06:14 [DanC]
+1 approve http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/10/04-minutes
17:06:19 [ht]
RESOLVED: Minutes of 4 October as distributed
17:06:42 [ht]
Topic: Telcon on 18 October
17:06:43 [Zakim]
+Norm
17:06:48 [ht]
DO: Regrets
17:06:54 [ht]
RL: Regrets
17:07:10 [ht]
NW: I can scribe
17:08:28 [ht]
NW: Regrets for 25 Oct and 1 Nov
17:09:09 [ht]
Topic: Session at Tech Plenary
17:09:28 [ht]
Tantek Celik and Ian Hickson have agreed to be on the panel
17:09:44 [trackbot-ng]
trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem
17:09:50 [trackbot-ng]
Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
17:11:11 [ht]
s/Tantek/DO: Tantek
17:11:31 [ht]
DO: TimBL has agreed to be on the panel, I'd like one more TAG member
17:14:36 [ht]
DO: Three issues that are asking for discussion: microformats -- are or are not URI-based extensibility?
17:14:43 [Stuart]
http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-TechPlenAgenda.html
17:14:44 [trackbot-ng]
trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem
17:14:51 [trackbot-ng]
Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
17:15:22 [ht]
... another topic was the question of how namespaces should be added to XHTML
17:15:38 [ht]
... and deprecating attributes which are in the way of extensibility
17:16:11 [ht]
... Ian Hickson will pbly mostly say we aren't going to get there
17:16:12 [DanC]
agenda + IETF coordination telcon coming up; agenda input?
17:17:00 [ht]
... I have begun to think maybe there's something to this -- easy-to-author and URI-based extensibility are pretty much in conflict
17:21:34 [ht]
SW: Around the table to see what people feel like
17:22:40 [ht]
DO: My preference would be to ask DC, with his HTML WG hat on
17:22:47 [ht]
DC: OK, I'll do it
17:24:49 [Zakim]
-Dave_Orchard
17:24:54 [ht]
Topic: Issue httpRedirections-57 (ISSUE-57)
17:25:23 [DanC]
trackbot-ng, ACTION-46 is done
17:25:42 [ht]
SW: Norm, state of Action-46?
17:25:47 [Norm]
Closed
17:25:51 [ht]
NW: No further comments
17:26:00 [ht]
trackbot-ng, ACTION-46 is closed
17:27:11 [ht]
SW: Lots of threads on www-tag, on httpRange-14 and httpRedirections-57
17:27:27 [DanC]
q+ to discuss collaboration tactics
17:27:32 [ht]
... One on alternatives to 'resource', converging on 'thing'
17:28:50 [ht]
SW: Are people disposed to make this change?
17:29:00 [ht]
HST: No -- compare 'referent'
17:29:10 [ht]
... but I didn't read the thread
17:29:27 [ht]
DC: But there's a previous understanding of the word, so it's not a good choice
17:30:01 [ht]
... you can allocate resources, or deallocate them, they can be accessed. . .
17:30:06 [ht]
HST: OK, I see
17:30:24 [Stuart]
ack danc
17:30:24 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to discuss collaboration tactics
17:30:51 [ht]
DC: In a tutorial context, maybe we don't need a name at all -- perhaps the editor of the Cool URIs spec. could try to avoid a name altogether
17:31:07 [ht]
... failing which 'thing' has some good properties
17:31:24 [ht]
DC: Who has the ball? Us or the editor?
17:31:27 [ht]
SW: Don't know
17:32:12 [ht]
DC: I'd like to have a clear expectation of how the process is going forward -- we make comments and get quick turnaround, or the editor has gone away for a few weeks and will be back for a draft, or . . .
17:32:42 [ht]
... What I'd like is two or three weeks of low-latency interaction with the editor(s) -- if not this two-or-three, some other is fine
17:32:52 [DanC]
trackbot-ng, status
17:33:44 [trackbot-ng]
trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem
17:33:50 [trackbot-ng]
Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
17:33:55 [ht]
ACTION: Stuart to contact editors of Cool URIs to determine when/how to carry our interaction forward. . .
17:34:29 [ht]
trackbot-ng, Action to Stuart to contact editors of Cool URIs to determine when/how to carry our interaction forward. . .
17:34:56 [ht]
SW: Rhys, where are we wrt httpRange-14?
17:35:21 [DanC]
q+ to ask, with some hesitation, about denote vs identify
17:35:37 [Stuart]
s/httpRange-14/HTTP Resources and Endpoints/
17:35:52 [ht]
RL: I've been letting this rest for a bit -- I didn't feel I had much support for trying to pin down what was in common between all 200s and at least 303s. . .
17:36:00 [ht]
HST: You convinced _me_!
17:36:13 [Stuart]
ack dan
17:36:13 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to ask, with some hesitation, about denote vs identify
17:36:46 [ht]
DC: 'resource' vs. 'thing' is editorial, but there's a technical distinction between 'denote' and 'identify' which Pat Hayes is trying to make
17:36:51 [ht]
... Anybody get that?
17:37:18 [trackbot-ng]
Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
17:37:26 [trackbot-ng]
Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
17:37:29 [DanC]
(I'm clear on 'access' vs 'identify', but not 'identify' vs name/denote)
17:37:34 [trackbot-ng]
Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
17:37:38 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-64 - to contact editors of Cool URIs to determine when/how to carry our interaction forward. . . [on Stuart Williams - due 2007-10-18].
17:38:02 [ht]
SW: There are two senses in which we use the word 'identify' wrt URIs -- one meaning 'access' -- the URI as a way of getting at something, vs. one a URI appears in a piece of text we're using it like a name, w/o any interest in accessing, or any implication that it _can_ be accessed
17:38:44 [ht]
DC: I don't hear anyone using 'identify' in the 'access' sense
17:38:57 [ht]
[scribe missed SW's reply]
17:39:47 [ht]
SW: The intention of the web arch. is that URIs denote, and sometimes are a means of access
17:40:10 [ht]
... another point is that a name can refer to many different things, which is at odds
17:40:24 [ht]
DC: I still don't hear how identify isn't a synonym of denote
17:40:50 [ht]
... and then there's the 'rigid designator' idea
17:41:14 [ht]
SW: That's what he's offering . . .
17:43:09 [ht]
HST: 'rigid designator' for me turns out to be an unsatisfiable concept -- we don't have any in practice
17:43:18 [ht]
DC: But 'Paris' works, and so do URIs
17:43:55 [ht]
HST: Agreed, they just don't satisfy the literal interpretation of 'rigid designator' as something which always and everywhere denotes the same thing
17:44:13 [ht]
topic: XML Schema language URIs
17:44:33 [ht]
DC: What about this thing in the new Schema 1.1 draft
17:46:17 [dorchard]
dorchard has joined #tagmem
17:47:27 [Zakim]
+Dave_Orchard
17:47:41 [ht]
HST: I think this is accidental, not the result of a carefully thought through analysis
17:48:05 [ht]
DC: I would like to suggest they add a #language -- would that work for all of us?
17:48:54 [ht]
HST: I think I prefer not -- perhaps we should use this as a good concrete case to work this through as an example of what we want the cool URIs doc't to say
17:49:14 [ht]
... I would prefer 303
17:49:21 [ht]
SW: NW: similar
17:49:34 [ht]
SW: We'll put this one up on a whiteboard at the November f2f
17:49:42 [ht]
HST: Schema group are not focussed on this right now
17:50:06 [ht]
SW: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Sep/thread.html#msg148
17:50:13 [ht]
... Which URI should be persistent when redirects are used?
17:50:44 [trackbot-ng]
trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem
17:50:50 [trackbot-ng]
Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
17:51:11 [DanC]
Misha tells the story behind "which should be persistent" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Sep/0154.html
17:51:29 [ht]
DC: [They] are making up URIs for the Mona Lisa
17:51:42 [ht]
s/[They]/IPTC/
17:52:09 [ht]
DC: Again, this is the audience we hope will read Cool URIs. . . --- what should they do?
17:52:25 [ht]
HST: Did the thread converge?
17:52:54 [ht]
DC: No -- I suggested a # solution, we want back and forth on that vs. 303, no resolution. . .
17:53:01 [DanC]
"The IPTC is likely to approve the NewsML-G2 specification at our
17:53:01 [DanC]
meeting in Prague in mid-October."
17:53:24 [ht]
HST: Sounds like we've missed their cutoff. . .
17:55:02 [ht]
HST: Until we have a document, threads will fail to converge and that's to be expected
17:55:20 [ht]
SW: Yes, and I have an action to move that document along
17:55:29 [ht]
topic: namespaceDocument-8 -- new draft
17:55:44 [trackbot-ng]
trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem
17:55:49 [ht]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/nsDocuments-2007-10-05/
17:55:50 [trackbot-ng]
Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
17:56:46 [raman]
need to drop off in 3 minutes ...
17:56:58 [Zakim]
-Raman
17:58:43 [DanC]
(stuart and I are using the due dates as "next time you want this to be discussed in a tag meeting")
17:58:53 [ht]
HST: I produced the revision based on the informal presentation at the f2f
18:03:38 [ht]
... One outstanding question I'd like advice on -- is 'natureKey' a DatatypeProperty or an ObjectProperty ?
18:04:33 [ht]
DC: Not sure. . .
18:05:20 [DanC]
the blank node is a nature:Object
18:05:36 [ht]
... I guess the name natureKey suggests string rather than thing
18:06:14 [ht]
SW: I feel like the 'purpose' relation runs the wrong way
18:06:46 [ht]
DC: Look rather at the instances -- schemaValidation, normativeReference
18:07:17 [ht]
SW: The first diagram
18:08:08 [ht]
DC: schemaValidation isn't an instance of Purpose
18:08:10 [ht]
SW: Yes it is
18:08:19 [ht]
HST: Please check the ontology, DanC
18:08:22 [DanC]
(subproperty)
18:08:42 [ht]
SW: Take this to email
18:09:07 [ht]
ACTION: Norm or Henry to fix the first two diagram
18:09:07 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Norm
18:09:41 [ht]
ACTION: Henry to look at the name of the Purpose property class to see if we can't do better
18:09:41 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Henry
18:09:58 [DanC]
trackbot-ng, status
18:10:09 [DanC]
ACTION: Henry S. to look at the name of the Purpose property class to see if we can't do better
18:10:19 [DanC]
ACTION: Henry S. to look at the name of the Purpose property class to see if we can't do better
18:10:19 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Henry
18:10:27 [DanC]
phphpt.
18:11:21 [DanC]
(I'm not optimistic about improving on "purpose"; I suggest an ed note to say "these words are a little awkward due to the awkwardness of 3-ary relations in RDF. life goes on.")
18:12:01 [Stuart]
Henry may find SWBPD writing on N-ary relations useful: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/
18:13:12 [ht]
SW: I picked up another problem -- 'identify' gets used a lot
18:14:04 [ht]
DC: Also, this document isn't done until the first ednotes is addressed
18:14:25 [ht]
HST: Wrt SW's point, until WebArch changes I don't see the issue
18:14:47 [ht]
Topic: Mobile AJAX Workshop
18:14:58 [ht]
SW: Talk about this now?
18:15:47 [ht]
DC: So minutes suggests the next step is a report
18:15:55 [ht]
... any progress towards a f2f meeting?
18:16:03 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2007/06/mobile-ajax/report.html
18:16:10 [ht]
RL: Report is out: http://www.w3.org/2007/06/mobile-ajax/report.html
18:17:20 [ht]
DC: Ah -- report bucks next steps squarely into lap of W3C. . .where will the resource come from ?
18:17:36 [ht]
SW: Anything on the plenary agenda about this?
18:17:43 [ht]
... Lightening talk?
18:17:56 [ht]
HST: That's a good idea, if they're not full
18:18:27 [ht]
DC: People there from Dojo and the other big library builders, right?
18:19:00 [ht]
RL: Prototype, Scriptaculous, Yahoo, Google, Microsoft
18:19:09 [ht]
DC: IBM contribute, or have their own?
18:19:24 [ht]
RL: I don't know if what they've got is packaged as a library
18:19:43 [ht]
... IBM's secure mashup approach (SMASH) was discussed
18:20:16 [ht]
DC: RL, are you tracking this stuff personally?
18:20:41 [ht]
RL: Yes, I chair the Mobile taskforce at Open AJAX Alliance -- think of that as rather like an XG
18:21:06 [ht]
... We're doing a whitepaper giving an intro to what Mobile AJAX is
18:21:55 [DanC]
local access
18:21:59 [ht]
... and an API/library to give access to for example device capabilities
18:22:04 [Stuart]
q?
18:22:05 [DanC]
local access to device capabilities
18:22:23 [ht]
DC: Logistics of the taskforce?
18:22:51 [ht]
RL: All email and telcons -- f2f is only plenary, for whole Alliance, so next one in the spring some time
18:23:04 [ht]
DC: Any of the AJAX library guys going to be at the tech plenary
18:23:10 [Rhys]
http://www.openajax.org/
18:23:31 [ht]
RL: Not sure how many are even W3C members -- see http://www.openajax.org/ for the OpenAJAX membership
18:24:56 [ht]
RL: I did ask the question at the plenary whether they thought WebArch was OK from their perspective
18:25:12 [ht]
... perhaps half had read it, and they were pretty much OK with what they found there
18:25:31 [ht]
... This was particularly in the area of state for URIs
18:27:04 [ht]
HST: The whole client-side persistence thing is mushrooming fast
18:27:14 [ht]
... perhaps we should look at this at some point
18:27:45 [ht]
RL: Indeed the mobile ajax taskforce is looking at that as well
18:28:54 [ht]
DC: I hope we can just trust them to get it right
18:29:07 [ht]
... so we can leave it be for a while
18:29:37 [Zakim]
-Dave_Orchard
18:29:38 [ht]
HST: I agree we can leave it, but for a different reason
18:30:01 [Zakim]
-Ht
18:30:03 [Zakim]
-Norm
18:30:04 [Zakim]
-Stuart
18:30:10 [Zakim]
- +077647aabb
18:30:15 [DanC]
(IETF/W3C telcon seems to be 2 weeks from 9 Oct, so it can wait a week)
18:30:46 [ht]
... We've already tacitly agreed to ignore the architectural impact of the fact that most web pages today are constructed on the client by Javascript anyway
18:30:58 [ht]
DC: We haven't ignored it, we wrote the Least Power finding
18:31:04 [ht]
HST: Which people are ignoring
18:31:29 [ht]
DC: No they're not, [xxx] wrote a book about ?Unobtrusive? Javascript, and it's having a big impact
18:31:41 [ht]
HST: Gee, not from what I see coming at my browser
18:32:31 [ht]
DC: Yes, well, Sturgeon's Law applies ("Ninety percent of everything is crap")
18:32:43 [ht]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:32:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-tagmem-minutes.html ht
18:32:43 [DanC]
http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/ ; see also http://www.alistapart.com/articles/behavioralseparation by Jeremy Keith
18:32:54 [ht]
RRSAgent, make logs world-visible
18:32:59 [ht]
Zakim, bye
18:32:59 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +077647aaaa, Rhys, Stuart, Raman, Ht, DanC, Dave_Orchard, Norm
18:32:59 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem
18:33:28 [ht]
DanC, thanks for pointers
18:33:31 [ht]
Will include in minutes
18:33:36 [DanC]
"Disciplined application of best practices to avoid the problems of traditional JavaScript programming (such as browser inconsistencies and lack of scalability)" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtrusive_JavaScript
18:34:36 [DanC]
(hmm... maybe I should write an item on the tag blog to link the finding to that recent work)
18:36:04 [ht]
Hmm, I was just thinking I should make this the subject of my first ever blog piece!
18:40:05 [DanC]
be my guest
18:43:44 [trackbot-ng]
trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem
18:43:50 [trackbot-ng]
Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
19:20:03 [raman]
raman has left #tagmem
19:46:45 [trackbot-ng]
trackbot-ng has joined #tagmem
19:46:51 [trackbot-ng]
Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
21:31:34 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tagmem
21:35:37 [Noah]
Noah has joined #tagmem
21:52:51 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tagmem
21:55:07 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tagmem
23:34:22 [noah2]
noah2 has joined #tagmem