14:39:04 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:39:04 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-irc 14:39:12 Zakim has joined #rdfa 14:39:18 zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa) 14:39:18 ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes 14:39:25 Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-10-11, 15:00 UTC 14:39:32 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0083.html 14:39:39 -> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-10-04 14:39:46 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:39:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas 14:40:04 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:51:39 Steven_ has joined #rdfa 14:56:12 ShaneM has joined #rdfa 14:56:44 msporny has joined #rdfa 14:56:54 mhausenblas_ has joined #rdfa 14:58:03 Steven_ has left #rdfa 14:58:10 Steven_ has joined #rdfa 15:01:01 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 15:01:02 +ShaneM 15:01:15 zakim, dial steven-617 15:01:15 ok, Steven_; the call is being made 15:01:17 +Steven 15:01:29 zakim, who is here? 15:01:29 On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven 15:01:33 On IRC I see Steven_, mhausenblas_, msporny, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ralph, myakura, mhausenblas, Simone, kwijibo 15:01:50 benadida has joined #rdfa 15:02:01 +mhausenblas 15:02:48 Chair: Ben 15:02:55 +Ralph 15:02:56 -Ralph 15:02:58 +Ralph 15:03:07 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:03:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas_ 15:03:19 +benadida 15:03:45 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:03:45 On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, +043316aaaa, Ralph, +1.617.395.aabb 15:04:03 Zakim, aaaa is me 15:04:03 +mhausenblas_; got it 15:04:03 zakim, i am aabb 15:04:04 ok, benadida, I now associate you with +1.617.395.aabb 15:04:29 +??P5 15:04:40 zakim, i am +??P5 15:04:40 sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '+??P5' 15:04:51 zakim, i am ??P5 15:04:51 +msporny; got it 15:05:33 zakim, wh ois here? 15:05:33 I don't understand your question, Steven_. 15:05:38 zakim, who is here? 15:05:38 On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, mhausenblas_, Ralph, +1.617.395.aabb, msporny 15:05:40 On IRC I see benadida, Steven_, mhausenblas_, msporny, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ralph, myakura, Simone, kwijibo 15:05:53 kwijibo has left #rdfa 15:06:10 zakim, I am dog 15:06:10 sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'dog' 15:06:30 zakim, pick a victim 15:06:30 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mhausenblas_ 15:06:37 markbirbeck has joined #rdfa 15:07:25 ;-) you mean 15:07:25 scribenick: mhausenblas 15:07:43 ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule 15:07:45 rrsagent, pointer? 15:07:45 See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-irc#T15-07-45 15:08:16 Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0083 15:08:21 Topic: Action Items 15:09:33 [NEW] ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] 15:09:39 -- continues 15:10:05 http://rdfa.info/rdfa-implementations/ 15:10:32 [NEW] ACTION: Ben to bring non-prefixed @rel issue to email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] 15:10:35 -- done 15:12:05 zakim, code? 15:12:05 the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck 15:12:15 Ben: We need to sort this out - wait for Mark 15:12:40 ... @rel support for backwards compatibility 15:12:46 [NEW] ACTION: Michael add Fabien's proposed tests to the test suite archive [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:12:48 -- done 15:12:52 +??P21 15:12:56 [NEW] ACTION: Michael add Ivan's proposed tests to the test suite [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] 15:12:59 -- done 15:12:59 zakim, i am ? 15:12:59 +markbirbeck; got it 15:13:04 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0078.html New Test Cases 15:13:36 Ben: Mark, we were just discussing @rel issues 15:14:14 ... should add default values or drop them? 15:14:31 Mark: Kind of taxonomy of useful values 15:14:55 Ben: As @property is a new attribute ... 15:15:08 Steven: @property replaces @name 15:15:55 Mark: @name is still there 15:16:09 ... some interesting use cases came up recently 15:16:22 ... wonder if we need a 1:1 correspondance 15:16:30 q+ to say that @property is the new @name but we don't have syntax compatibility concerns that require us to back fit existing usage 15:17:58 Ralph: Support Marks comment; we should discourage for new written documents 15:18:01 q+ to mention that parsers always have the option to generate legacy triples in @name 15:18:09 ack Ralph 15:18:09 Ralph, you wanted to say that @property is the new @name but we don't have syntax compatibility concerns that require us to back fit existing usage 15:18:19 s/discourage/discourage unprefixed usage/ 15:18:22 {meta name="dc.creator" property="dc:creator" content="Mark Birbeck"/} 15:18:31 s/{/ s/}/>/ 15:20:03 q- 15:20:26 Ben: So we should not have non-prefixed values for @propery 15:20:41 s/@propery/@property 15:21:13 Mark: Basically agree 15:22:05 ... need to check for consistency 15:23:05 Ben: Resolve it via mailing list 15:25:55 [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] 15:26:05 -- done 15:27:27 [PENDING] ACTION: Michael make sure to confirm a design for checking that the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] 15:29:57 -- continues 15:30:23 Michael will write up a proposal how to mark it up in th manifest 15:30:39 [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] 15:30:46 -- continues 15:31:00 Topic: Summary of F2F 15:31:05 -> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#item01 F2F discussion 15:31:21 Steven: All SWD participants were very convinced 15:31:33 ... and Mark's slides were very nice 15:32:57 Mark: Good vibes - very encouraging 15:34:21 Ben: Good work. Still, we need to continue to work hard 15:34:54 s/slides were very nice/slides were not needed/ 15:35:17 Michael: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/ImplReport SWD action on RDFa Implementation 15:36:18 Steven: Depends on exit criteria 15:36:47 ... need two independent implementation 15:36:56 Raplh: Will add examples to the Wiki 15:37:25 s/Raplh/Ralph/ 15:37:40 Steven: tick is important 15:38:37 Topic: New Test Cases 15:38:51 s/need two independent implementation/if we decide we need two implementations for exit from CR< then we need two columns, one for each implementation, with a tick for each test passed/ 15:38:56 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0078.html New Test Cases 15:39:13 scribenick: ralph 15:39:31 -- test 46 15:39:34 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0046 test 46 15:40:06 Michael: test 46 - 53 are all @instanceof with various combinations of other attributes 15:41:57 Ralph: find a different property than foaf:knows so the semantics of the relationship between the page and John Doe is correct 15:42:23 ... e.g. foaf:depicts ? 15:42:32 Michael: probably; 15:42:42 ACTION: Michael to find a more appropriate predicate than foaf:knows for TC46-53 15:42:44 e.g. foaf:maker 15:42:45 Manu: foaf:maker ? 15:43:11 dc:creator? 15:43:49 Ralph: this test is consisent with our decision, yes. I still question some details of the decision 15:44:35 Mark: this is the debate about @instanceof -- isn't that debate still open? 15:44:57 Ben: not still open, we've decided that @instanceof without @about applies to the object bnode 15:45:25 Mark: the debate is whether @instanceof applies to the subject or to the object 15:46:00 Certainly in this: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-rdfa-syntax-20070927/#s_rdfaindetail it says the issue is open. 15:46:12 Ralph: I think this was the decision, even if I disagree with it :) 15:46:38 +1 for test case 46 15:47:44 Shane: the point of the note in the document is that the document is not clear on this decision 15:47:57 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0001 Ivan's comment 15:48:33 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Sep/0202.html @instanceof 15:49:13 Ben: there may be an issue with the way the rules are described 15:49:34 ... but without looking at the processing rules, can we agree or disagree that the proposed triples are what we want? 15:51:02 Mark: the DIV could create a bnode _:y 15:51:20 ... with _:y foaf:knows _:x 15:51:31 ... and _:y rdf:type _:x 15:51:41 s/_:x/foaf:Peraon/ 15:51:46 s/Peraon/Person/ 15:51:59 Ben: @@ 15:52:10 Mark: DIV with just @rel is unambiguous 15:53:07 Ralph: a useful interpretation would be (though in this case semantically incorrect) 0046.xhtml rdf:type foaf:Person 15:53:23 Ben: that interpretation would violate all our rules about @instanceof 15:53:52 Ben: gets confusing if you think about it as more than one bnode 15:54:01 ... but easier if there's just one bnode that is the chaining element 15:54:06 Mark: too many special cases going on 15:54:17 ... the one I'm happy with is when @rel sits on its own 15:54:46 Ben: if @rel causes chaining, it has to identify the chaining subject 15:55:12 Mark: @rel traditionally applies to the document, regardless of where it sits; i.e. in traditional HTML @rel applies to the global document 15:55:25 ... we've added the ability to specify the subject 15:56:17 ... if @rel applies to the thing above it, or when there's nothing above it, it gets confusing 15:58:21 Michael: @instanceof is syntactic sugar for @rel w/ @href 15:58:45 Ben: no, @instance of is really sugar for LINK with @rel ... 15:59:51 Ralph: consider test 50 16:01:13 Mark: I thought that this issue was connected to the issue of what to do with @about 16:01:16 Michael: in TC 50 there should be a bNode as subject IMHO 16:01:44 Ben: test 50 looks very wrong to me 16:01:55 Ralph: I agree that 46 and 50 are contradictory 16:02:26 Ben: test 50 needs a bnode 16:02:30 ... it's always the same bnode 16:02:41 ... and the bnode is the object of the outer statement 16:02:58 Mark: and if there were an @about it would give a name to the bnode 16:03:10 ... and if you add @rel, what's changed? 16:03:42 Ben: @instanceof inherits @about 16:04:13 Mark: @instanceof still belongs in the list of predicates; the predicate happens to be rdf:type 16:04:35
16:04:36
16:04:58 Mark: that example is a grey area in my model 16:05:19 Ben: I thought we'd agreed that this was <#foo> rdf:type 16:05:37 Mark: end up using @about and @resource interchangeably 16:05:41
16:06:31 Mark: I really don't like that @href is chaining 16:06:39 q+ 16:08:56 Ralph: tests 46 - 53 are inconsistent 16:09:24 ... they also have typos; e.g. the URI in 50 is clearly not mentioned anywhere 16:09:44 ... suggest that each of us look at 46 - 53 and propose what we think are the fixes to the inconsistencies 16:11:24 ACTION: All look at tests 46 - 53 and write what you believe the correct triples are 16:12:02 schedule -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule 16:12:03 Topic: Schedule 16:12:41 scribenick: mhausenblas 16:12:58 Ben: 15 Nov is the strict deadline 16:13:11 ... for the syntax doc 16:13:31 Steven: Out ASAP 16:13:48 Shane: Need to address some issues from SWD F2F 16:14:12 Mark: True but no critical ones 16:14:18 31 Oct is the drop dead date for this draft 16:14:56 Ben: What is the next possible date for new syntax? 16:14:57 q+ 16:15:05 Mark: 2007-10-16 16:15:46 Steven: Wil take care for publication (from Shane) 16:15:52 s/Wil/Will 16:16:06 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:16:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas 16:16:34 Shane: I'll start today and work all night :) 16:16:43 'cause I have no life. 16:16:59 Shane: I will signal Steven when the doc is ready to publish 16:17:02 XHTML2 WG ratified the decision to publish 16:17:03 Ben: Primer in upcoming week 16:17:15 Ralph: Will suport Ben 16:17:25 s/suport/support 16:17:37 Ben: Need to work hard till the end of the year! 16:17:39 Ben: I will signal Ralph when the Primer is ready to publish 16:17:58 Ben: I'll be on vacation from 18-24 Oct 16:18:08 Regrets for 25 Oct 16:18:26 Ben: I cannot chair on the 25th 16:18:54 Michael: regrets for 25 Oct 16:19:04 Michael: I'm on travel on 25th 16:19:17 Steven: at risk for 18 Oct 16:19:20 Steven: 18th is on risk 16:20:07 Ben: Nice work Mark and Shane 16:20:13 -ShaneM 16:20:14 -Steven 16:20:15 -mhausenblas_ 16:20:17 -markbirbeck 16:20:18 -msporny 16:20:19 -Ralph 16:20:20 - +1.617.395.aabb 16:20:21 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended 16:20:22 Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, mhausenblas, Ralph, benadida, mhausenblas_, msporny, markbirbeck 16:20:28 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:20:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas 16:20:33 zakim, bye 16:20:33 Zakim has left #rdfa 16:21:49 rrsagent, bye 16:21:49 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-actions.rdf : 16:21:49 ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [1] 16:21:49 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-irc#T15-07-43 16:21:49 ACTION: Michael to find a more appropriate predicate than foaf:knows for TC46-53 [2] 16:21:49 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-irc#T15-42-42 16:21:49 ACTION: All look at tests 46 - 53 and write what you believe the correct triples are [3] 16:21:49 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-irc#T16-11-24