16:49:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:49:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-owl-irc
16:49:36 <bijan> ah, just from this client
16:49:52 <ivan> zakim, this will be owl
16:49:52 <Zakim> ok, ivan; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
16:50:06 <bijan> Scribe: Bijan Parsia
16:50:13 <bijan> ScribeNick: bijan
16:50:23 <bijan> Meeting: OWL WG Teleconference
16:50:28 <bijan> Who's chair?
16:51:12 <IanH> IanH has joined #owl
16:51:23 <sandro> sandro has joined #owl
16:52:47 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started
16:52:54 <Zakim> +??P25
16:53:04 <pfps> zakim, ??p25 is pfps
16:53:04 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
16:54:31 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
16:54:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps
16:54:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see sandro, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bmotik, Doug, clu, bijan_, ivan, pfps, bijan
16:55:10 <Tommie> Tommie has joined #owl
16:55:11 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:55:49 <Zakim> +??P29
16:56:00 <bijan> zakim, p29 is me
16:56:00 <Zakim> sorry, bijan, I do not recognize a party named 'p29'
16:56:06 <bijan> zakim, ??p29 is me
16:56:06 <Zakim> +bijan; got it
16:56:23 <bijan> zakim, mute me
16:56:23 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
16:56:35 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #owl
16:56:59 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-home
16:56:59 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:57:01 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:57:13 <Zakim> +??P31
16:57:31 <Zakim> + +018652aaaa
16:57:39 <ivan> zakim, ??P31 is boris
16:57:39 <Zakim> +boris; got it
16:57:41 <Zakim> + +1.312.052.aabb
16:57:46 <IanH> zakim, aaaa is IanH
16:57:47 <Zakim> +IanH; got it
16:57:54 <RinkeHoekstra> RinkeHoekstra has joined #owl
16:58:03 <Zakim> + +49.351.4.aacc
16:58:57 <ekw> ekw has joined #owl
16:59:03 <MarkusK> MarkusK has joined #owl
16:59:12 <clu> I just joined from Germany. Carsten Lutz, TU Dresden
16:59:29 <ivan> zakim, aacc is Carsten
16:59:29 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
16:59:37 <sandro> Zakim, aacc is Carston_Lutz
16:59:37 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
16:59:39 <bijan> Agenda email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0005.html
17:00:04 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl
17:00:06 <Zakim> +Vipul_Kashyap
17:00:06 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:00:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, bijan (muted), Ivan, boris, IanH, +1.312.052.aabb, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap
17:00:23 <Zakim> + +1.617.253.aadd
17:00:25 <bijan> Chair: Ian Horrocks and Alan Ruttenberg
17:00:39 <Zakim> +JeffP
17:00:49 <Zakim> +??P38
17:00:57 <sandro> rrsagent, pointer?
17:00:57 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-owl-irc#T17-00-57
17:01:03 <ivan> zakim, aadd is alan
17:01:03 <Zakim> +alan; got it
17:01:16 <Zakim> +Doug
17:01:24 <stoil> stoil has joined #OWL
17:01:30 <Zakim> +[IBM]
17:01:40 <vipul> vipul has joined #owl
17:02:13 <Doug> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:02:13 <Zakim> +[IVML]
17:02:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, bijan (muted), Ivan, boris, IanH, +1.312.052.aabb, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap, alan, +012242aaee, MarkusK (muted), +1.512.342.aaff, [IBM], [IVML]
17:02:20 <stoil> zakim, [IVML] is me
17:02:20 <Zakim> +stoil; got it
17:02:25 <Zakim> + +1.301.975.aaee
17:02:49 <sandro> Zakim, aaee is Conrad
17:02:50 <Zakim> +Conrad; got it
17:02:52 <Zakim> -bijan
17:03:00 <Doug> zakim, aaff is me
17:03:00 <Zakim> +Doug; got it
17:03:07 <Zakim> +??P44
17:03:19 <Doug> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:03:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, Ivan, boris, IanH, +1.312.052.aabb, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap, alan, Conrad, MarkusK (muted), Doug, [IBM], stoil, +1.301.975.aaee, ??P44
17:03:23 <Zakim> +??P1
17:03:28 <Zakim> + +1.408.774.aaff
17:03:28 <sandro> Zakim, aabb is Rinke
17:03:29 <Zakim> +Rinke; got it
17:03:38 <bijan> zakim, ??P44 is me
17:03:38 <Zakim> +bijan; got it
17:04:03 <alanr> going to experiment with agenda
17:04:12 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
17:04:17 <alanr> agenda+ ADMIN (20 min)
17:04:19 <alanr> agenda+ Roll call
17:04:31 <cbock> cbock has joined #owl
17:04:39 <sandro> Zakim, ??P1 is Bijan
17:04:39 <Zakim> +Bijan; got it
17:04:49 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone
17:04:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', sandro
17:04:51 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:04:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, Ivan, boris, IanH, Rinke, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap, alan, Conrad, MarkusK (muted), Doug, [IBM], stoil, +1.301.975.aaee, bijan (muted), Bijan,
17:04:54 <alanr> agenda+ PROPOSED regular telecon time Wednesday 1300 East US
17:04:55 <Zakim> ... +1.408.774.aaff, Evan_Wallace
17:04:55 <alanr> agenda+ Agenda amendments
17:04:57 <alanr> agenda+ Telecons and IRC
17:04:58 <alanr> agenda+ Scribe Alternation
17:05:00 <alanr> agenda+ Regrets to be posted on meeting wiki
17:05:02 <alanr> agenda+ Wiki authorship policy
17:05:03 <alanr> agenda+ Charter review (20 min)
17:05:05 <alanr> agenda+ Scope
17:05:06 <alanr> agenda+ Deliverables
17:05:08 <alanr> agenda+ Timeline
17:05:09 <alanr> agenda+ Organisation (20 min)
17:05:11 <alanr> agenda+ Sub-groups to work on deliverables
17:05:12 <alanr> agenda+ Relationships to other W3C groups (10 min)
17:05:14 <alanr> agenda+ Choose contact persons
17:05:15 <alanr> agenda+ Review of the RIF document
17:05:17 <alanr> agenda+ Manchester F2F (10 min)
17:05:18 <alanr> agenda+ Estimate attendance
17:05:20 <alanr> agenda+ Outline objectives
17:05:21 <alanr> agenda+ Additional other business (5 min)
17:06:00 <pfps> pfps has joined #owl
17:06:14 <sandro> zakim, ??P44 is Uli
17:06:14 <Zakim> I already had ??P44 as bijan, sandro
17:06:23 <sandro> zakim, bijan is Uli
17:06:23 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not recognize a party named 'bijan'
17:06:31 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:06:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, Ivan, boris, IanH, Rinke, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap, alan, Conrad, MarkusK (muted), Doug, [IBM], stoil, +1.301.975.aaee, bijan, Bijan,
17:06:35 <Zakim> ... +1.408.774.aaff, Evan_Wallace
17:06:42 <Zakim> -bijan
17:07:09 <sandro> Zakim, IBM is temporarily Achille_Fokoue
17:07:09 <Zakim> +Achille_Fokoue; got it
17:07:22 <Zakim> +??P15
17:07:29 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:07:29 <Zakim> sorry, bmotik, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:07:31 <sandro> zakim, aaff is Elisa
17:07:31 <Zakim> +Elisa; got it
17:07:35 <Doug> [adding this to my Irony casefile: what we really need is a semantic web]
17:07:36 <Zakim> +Joanne_Luciano
17:07:38 <sandro> zakim ??P15 is Uli
17:07:59 <JeffP> zakim, ??P15 is Uli
17:07:59 <Zakim> +Uli; got it
17:08:01 <Zakim> +AnneCregan
17:08:21 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:08:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, Ivan, boris, IanH, Rinke, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap, alan, Conrad, MarkusK (muted), Doug, Achille_Fokoue, stoil, +1.301.975.aaee, Bijan, Elisa,
17:08:25 <Zakim> ... Evan_Wallace, Uli, Joanne_Luciano, AnneCregan
17:08:43 <cgi-irc> cgi-irc has joined #owl
17:08:56 <bmotik> Zakim, boris is bmotik
17:08:56 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
17:09:04 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:09:04 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:09:22 <bijan_> zakim, mute me
17:09:22 <Zakim> sorry, bijan_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:09:35 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:09:35 <Zakim> Bijan should now be muted
17:09:50 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:09:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, Ivan, bmotik (muted), IanH, Rinke, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap, alan, Conrad, MarkusK (muted), Doug, Achille_Fokoue, stoil, +1.301.975.aaee, Bijan
17:09:54 <Zakim> ... (muted), Elisa, Evan_Wallace, Uli (muted), Joanne_Luciano, AnneCregan
17:10:02 <AnneCregan> AnneCregan has joined #owl
17:10:10 <sandro> zakim, drop aaee
17:10:10 <Zakim> +1.301.975.aaee is being disconnected
17:10:12 <Zakim> - +1.301.975.aaee
17:10:39 <bijan> Topic: getting started and attendence
17:10:57 <Zakim> +??P13
17:11:35 <sandro> Zakim, ??P13 is TommieMeyer
17:11:35 <Zakim> +TommieMeyer; got it
17:11:36 <Zakim> + +1.301.975.aagg
17:12:03 <sandro> Zakim, aagg is Conrad_Bock
17:12:03 <Zakim> +Conrad_Bock; got it
17:12:13 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:12:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, Ivan, bmotik (muted), IanH, Rinke, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap, alan, Conrad, MarkusK (muted), Doug, Achille_Fokoue, stoil, Bijan (muted), Elisa,
17:12:18 <Zakim> ... Evan_Wallace, Uli (muted), Joanne_Luciano, AnneCregan, TommieMeyer, Conrad_Bock
17:12:21 <jluciano> jluciano has joined #owl
17:13:08 <sandro> zakim, drop conrad
17:13:08 <Zakim> Conrad is being disconnected
17:13:09 <Zakim> -Conrad
17:14:52 <bijan> IanH: Procedural preliminaries; everyone should get better at getting connected so as to not take up telecon time with us getting connected
17:15:15 <Zakim> +Conrad.a
17:15:16 <bijan> ... Please check the using zakim and the ettiquette page.
17:15:54 <sandro> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Etiquette Meeting Etiquette Page
17:16:04 <sandro> Zakim, Conrad.a is Jeff_Pan
17:16:04 <Zakim> +Jeff_Pan; got it
17:16:26 <clu> zakim, mute me
17:16:26 <Zakim> sorry, clu, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:16:32 <bijan> ... and most importantly, help the scribe!
17:16:34 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Tools
17:16:38 <bijan> .... the scribe is to be helped!
17:16:46 <pfps> zakim, mute me
17:16:46 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
17:16:51 <bijan> next item
17:17:03 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:17:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps (muted), Sandro, Ivan, bmotik (muted), IanH, Rinke, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap, alan, MarkusK (muted), Doug, Achille_Fokoue, stoil, Bijan (muted), Elisa,
17:17:06 <Zakim> ... Evan_Wallace, Uli (muted), Joanne_Luciano, AnneCregan, TommieMeyer (muted), Conrad_Bock, Jeff_Pan
17:17:19 <bijan> zakim, take up agenda 1
17:17:19 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ADMIN (20 min)" taken up [from alanr]
17:17:56 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
17:17:56 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
17:17:56 <bijan> Bernadro is attending with me
17:18:24 <AnneCregan> no worries, mate!
17:18:28 <sandro> Zakim, Bijan has Bernado
17:18:28 <Zakim> +Bernado; got it
17:18:36 <sandro> zakim, list attendees
17:18:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pfps, Sandro, Ivan, +018652aaaa, +1.312.052.aabb, IanH, +49.351.4.aacc, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap, +1.617.253.aadd, JeffP, alan, MarkusK,
17:18:38 <alanr> next item
17:18:39 <bijan> next item
17:18:40 <Zakim> ... Doug, stoil, +1.301.975.aaee, Conrad, +1.408.774.aaff, Rinke, Evan_Wallace, Achille_Fokoue, Elisa, Joanne_Luciano, Uli, AnneCregan, bmotik, TommieMeyer, +1.301.975.aagg,
17:18:44 <Zakim> ... Conrad_Bock, Jeff_Pan, Bernado
17:18:48 <stoil> zakim, stoil is GiorgosStoilos
17:18:48 <Zakim> +GiorgosStoilos; got it
17:18:58 <ivan> q?
17:19:18 <stoil> not me
17:19:19 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:19:19 <Zakim> Bijan should no longer be muted
17:19:24 <sandro> q-
17:19:32 <bijan> zakim, ack ??p1
17:19:32 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
17:19:32 <sandro> zakim, next agenda item
17:19:33 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Roll call" taken up [from alanr]
17:19:37 <alanr> q- ??p1
17:19:43 <alanr> next item
17:19:45 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:19:45 <Zakim> Bijan should now be muted
17:19:57 <bijan> next item
17:20:16 <bijan> zakim, take up item 3
17:20:16 <Zakim> agendum 3. "PROPOSED regular telecon time Wednesday 1300 East US" taken up [from alanr]
17:20:20 <pfps> grumble, grumble, but its better than Friday
17:20:34 <bijan> IanH: Anyone have a problem with this time? No, let's move on.
17:20:44 <Rinke> +1 to pfps
17:20:51 <sandro> RESOLVED: regular telecon time Wednesday 1300 East US
17:21:23 <bijan> zakim, take up item 4
17:21:23 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Agenda amendments" taken up [from alanr]
17:21:26 <AnneCregan> 3am Australian Eastern Standard Time !
17:21:33 <bijan> IanH: no amendments
17:21:40 <bijan> zakim, take up item 5
17:21:40 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Telecons and IRC" taken up [from alanr]
17:21:55 <pfps> It is best to sign on to the IRC before you phone in, so that you can see your phone call being added.
17:22:06 <bijan> Sandro: Normally irc logs are public. So we need to decide that
17:22:14 <bijan> Ianh
17:22:16 <pfps> +1 to irc logs being public
17:22:17 <sandro> PROPOSED: irc logs default to public
17:22:22 <Rinke> +1
17:22:24 <bijan> IanH: Objections? no
17:22:25 <AnneCregan> +1
17:22:26 <MarkusK> +1
17:22:27 <sandro> RESOLVED: irc logs default to public
17:22:29 <ivan> +1
17:22:30 <Doug> +1
17:22:33 <bmotik> +1
17:22:40 <Joanne> +1
17:22:47 <pfps> (It is a good idea to say what your +1's are for.)
17:22:49 <sandro> RRSAgent, make record public
17:23:26 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:23:26 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-owl-irc#T17-23-26
17:24:25 <bijan> next item
17:24:32 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Scribe_List
17:24:40 <sandro> zakim, next item
17:24:40 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, sandro
17:24:41 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:24:41 <Zakim> Bijan should no longer be muted
17:24:58 <alanr> agenda?
17:25:08 <bijan> next item
17:25:18 <achille> achille has joined #owl
17:25:24 <stoil> zakim, next item
17:25:32 <alanr> close item 2
17:25:33 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, stoil
17:25:53 <alanr> close item 3
17:25:58 <alanr> close item 4
17:26:05 <bmotik> Zakim, who is muted?
17:26:05 <Zakim> I see pfps, bmotik, Carsten, MarkusK, Uli, TommieMeyer muted
17:26:07 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:26:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-owl-minutes.html sandro
17:26:18 <alanr> close item 6
17:26:37 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:26:37 <Zakim> Bijan should now be muted
17:26:38 <sandro> RRSAgent, make record public
17:27:10 <alanr> e.g. look at the bottom of http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.10.10/Agenda
17:27:10 <bijan> IanH: For scribing, please check the list and let chairs know if you can't make your turn
17:27:49 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
17:27:49 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
17:28:00 <bijan> alanr: if someone doesn't want to use the wiki for regrets, send email *directly* to Alan Ruttenberg (not to the list)
17:28:19 <bijan> pfps: Problem with the wiki involving colons and usernames
17:28:53 <sandro> ACTION: Alan to clean up User: prefix on wiki
17:29:13 <bijan> MarkusK: Something wikish the scribe can't follow
17:29:23 <sandro> Markus: tools like showing all-contributions-of-user require using User: namespace
17:29:42 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/
17:29:49 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:29:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, Ivan, bmotik (muted), IanH, Rinke, Carsten (muted), Vipul_Kashyap, alan, MarkusK (muted), Doug, Achille_Fokoue, GiorgosStoilos, Bijan (muted),
17:29:52 <Zakim> ... Elisa, Evan_Wallace, Uli (muted), Joanne_Luciano, AnneCregan, TommieMeyer (muted), Conrad_Bock, Jeff_Pan
17:29:53 <alanr> close item 7
17:29:55 <Zakim> Bijan has Bernado
17:30:30 <sandro> Present: pfps, Sandro, Ivan, bmotik, IanH, Rinke, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap, alan, Conrad, MarkusK, Doug, Achille_Fokoue, GiorgosStoilos, Bijan, Elisa, Evan_Wallace, Uli, Joanne_Luciano, AnneCregan, TommieMeyer, Conrad_Bock, Jeff_Pan, Bernado
17:30:52 <bmotik> zakim, what is on the agenda?
17:30:52 <Zakim> I see 14 items remaining on the agenda:
17:30:53 <Zakim> 8. Wiki authorship policy [from alanr]
17:30:54 <Zakim> 9. Charter review (20 min) [from alanr]
17:30:55 <Zakim> 10. Scope [from alanr]
17:30:57 <Zakim> 11. Deliverables [from alanr]
17:30:58 <Zakim> 12. Timeline [from alanr]
17:30:59 <Zakim> 13. Organisation (20 min) [from alanr]
17:31:00 <Zakim> 14. Sub-groups to work on deliverables [from alanr]
17:31:03 <Zakim> 15. Relationships to other W3C groups (10 min) [from alanr]
17:31:06 <Zakim> 16. Choose contact persons [from alanr]
17:31:07 <Zakim> 17. Review of the RIF document [from alanr]
17:31:09 <Zakim> 18. Manchester F2F (10 min) [from alanr]
17:31:10 <Zakim> 19. Estimate attendance [from alanr]
17:31:11 <Zakim> 20. Outline objectives [from alanr]
17:31:13 <Zakim> 21. Additional other business (5 min) [from alanr]
17:31:46 <MarkusK> +1 to use proper names for wiki accounts
17:31:55 <Rinke> +1 idem
17:32:10 <alanr> peter has to be patelp123
17:32:49 <bijan> discussion about names in wiki names
17:33:13 <bijan> alanr: if you have issues with your wikiname, contact alanr or sandro *off list*
17:33:28 <bijan> sandro: everyone should create a wiki account in the next few days
17:33:31 <sandro> Sandro: Everyone should go ahead and set up a wiki account in the next few days, using your full name (as on the participants list).
17:33:52 <bijan> IanH: Accounts are important because much of the work of the group will be done via the wiki
17:34:38 <pfps> zakim, mute me
17:34:38 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
17:34:49 <bijan> alanr: Wiki authorship policy: Every page is editable by all users. If you want to protect a page from arbitrary edits *say so on the page*. Default is that all users are free to edit.
17:34:55 <MarkusK> as wikis track all changes, it is usually easier to undo changes than to make them anyway
17:35:09 <bijan> alanr: question about who gets write access (e.g., out side of group
17:35:11 <pfps> We might want to have user pages editable by the user only.
17:35:30 <MarkusK> pfps: that is not easy to realise in MediaWiki
17:35:32 <bijan> ... alanr has ambitious plans for using the wiki; e.g., doing the specs there; test cases; etc.
17:35:33 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
17:35:33 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
17:36:00 <pfps> I meant that the default community practise is not to edit other people's user pages.
17:36:01 <bijan> sandro: If the edits are friendly, just do it. If you expect disputation, try the talk page first
17:36:12 <bijan> alanr: keep an eye on the recent changes
17:36:15 <sandro> sandro has joined #owl
17:36:41 <MarkusK> also note that you can watch pages in the wiki, and receive notiifcations if someone changes them
17:37:05 <bijan> I have some experience
17:37:09 <bijan> with wikis
17:37:33 <bijan> pfps: Is the wiki support full html?
17:38:00 <bijan> ACTION: alanr to check for HTML support in mediawiki, esp. to support the semantics document
17:38:05 <MarkusK> @pfps: full HTML is not possible, but you can get most formatting-related stuff
17:38:10 <pfps> I thought that there was an option to make MH be full HTML.
17:38:26 <sandro> There is -- we can turn on full-HTML in MW.
17:38:40 <pfps> zakim, mute me
17:38:40 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
17:38:46 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:38:46 <Zakim> Bijan should no longer be muted
17:38:58 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:38:58 <Zakim> Bijan should now be muted
17:39:03 <alanr> don't know if we want to
17:39:09 <sandro> Alan: Wiki folks -- Sandro, Alan, Markus, Peter
17:39:18 <MarkusK> -1 to use talk pages for discussions
17:39:28 <alanr> close item 8
17:40:35 <alanr> close item 9
17:40:37 <alanr> close item 10
17:40:41 <alanr> close item 11
17:40:43 <bijan> IanH: We're not going to do the charter review on the phone -- good homework. Participants shoudl read the charter very carefully and review the input documents for next week
17:40:45 <alanr> close item 12
17:40:48 <bijan> ... and the issues list, etc.
17:40:52 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:40:52 <Zakim> Bijan should no longer be muted
17:40:55 <bijan> q+
17:41:05 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:41:05 <Zakim> Bijan should now be muted
17:41:22 <bijan> q-
17:41:28 <vipul> q+
17:41:40 <bijan> alanr: we need to transistion the various issue lists
17:41:44 <bijan> This was my question
17:41:47 <bijan> or point
17:41:50 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:41:50 <Zakim> Bijan should no longer be muted
17:42:00 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:42:00 <Zakim> Bijan should now be muted
17:42:41 <pfps> let's just look at the pointers, what are they?
17:43:14 <alanr> http://code.google.com/p/owl1-1/issues/list
17:43:21 <bijan> IanH: The timeline is aggressive. Need first draft of the deliverables soon. So we need to identify potential land minds. Please review documents with an eye to these landmines.
17:43:25 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html OWL1.0 issues
17:43:30 <sandro> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html WebOnt issues (I think)
17:43:39 <sandro> heh
17:43:43 <ivan> :-)
17:43:52 <bijan> who's speaking?
17:43:57 <Rinke> Rinke has joined #owl
17:44:15 <alanr> charter says: The OWL1.1 member submission, the list of postponed issues of the WebOnt Working Group,
17:44:39 <bijan> vipul: Combined issues list is a great idea, but many issues from the origianl list are closed.  What should deal with it?
17:45:01 <ivan> I agree
17:45:01 <bijan> ... Some closed issues weren't *accommodated* but deferred. How do we reopen?
17:45:20 <bijan> IanH: Prefer to make a new issue for that
17:45:27 <bijan> general agreement
17:45:47 <bijan> who's speaking? there's noise?
17:45:48 <pfps> If you go to the issue list, then to the issue, there should be a Resolution that closed it, and pointers to where the resolution came from.
17:46:28 <bijan> vipul: Could the issue transfer person add all the resolutions and rationales?
17:46:41 <ekw> q+
17:46:50 <alanr> q- vipul
17:46:56 <bijan> IanH: prefer that the burden is on participants who want to champion an old closed issue should propose it fresh
17:47:23 <bijan> sandro: Note about issues: chairs have discrestion about actually raising issues. Participants propose issues.
17:47:45 <bijan> IanH: We must recall the timeline. So issues are better raised as early as possible.
17:47:48 <sandro> q?
17:48:20 <cbock> cbock has joined #owl
17:48:34 <ekw> q-
17:48:38 <sandro> Homework:   two issues lists, charter, owl 1.1 submission
17:49:08 <vipul> q+
17:49:09 <bijan> IanH: A proposal for organization: We should have subgroups for the deliverables.
17:49:27 <bijan> ... And we would use the wiki heavily for the collab document editing/authoring.
17:49:34 <bijan> IanH: Feedback?
17:49:41 <ivan> ack vipul 
17:50:06 <bijan> vipul: How to create the subgroups? Divide by technology or by application.
17:50:15 <bijan> IanH: We'd divide by *documents*.
17:50:19 <sandro> zakim, agenda
17:50:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agenda', sandro
17:50:21 <sandro> zakim, agenda?
17:50:21 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
17:50:22 <Zakim> 13. Organisation (20 min) [from alanr]
17:50:23 <Zakim> 14. Sub-groups to work on deliverables [from alanr]
17:50:25 <Zakim> 15. Relationships to other W3C groups (10 min) [from alanr]
17:50:28 <Zakim> 16. Choose contact persons [from alanr]
17:50:29 <Zakim> 17. Review of the RIF document [from alanr]
17:50:30 <Zakim> 18. Manchester F2F (10 min) [from alanr]
17:50:31 <Zakim> 19. Estimate attendance [from alanr]
17:50:32 <Zakim> 20. Outline objectives [from alanr]
17:50:34 <Zakim> 21. Additional other business (5 min) [from alanr]
17:50:38 <sandro> zakim, take up item 14
17:50:38 <Zakim> agendum 14. "Sub-groups to work on deliverables" taken up [from alanr]
17:50:42 <bijan> ... i.e., each subgroup is "in charge" of a corresponding document
17:51:00 <bijan> q+
17:51:06 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:51:06 <Zakim> Bijan should no longer be muted
17:51:09 <sandro> ack bijan
17:51:28 <sandro> Bijan: Maybe coordination would be difficult, if it's per-document sub-groups?
17:51:33 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:51:33 <Zakim> Bijan should now be muted
17:52:10 <bijan> IanH: That's a point. If you look at the owl, there's a lot of overlap. Might be good.
17:52:12 <sandro> Ian: If you look at the OWL spec, you'll see there's lots of overlap between them, so ... yes, lots of overlap ... good thing?  bad thing?     different documents for different audiences?
17:52:23 <bijan> I meant more that e.g., syntax changes affect the semantics document
17:52:43 <sandro> Joanne: How about people dedicated to cross-checking documents?
17:52:44 <bijan> Joanne: Useful for getting crosschecks
17:52:51 <ekw> Describing the same things in different ways for different audiences is good.
17:53:17 <bijan> I agree, but this is orthogonal to my point that the *language* decisions are separate
17:53:38 <bijan> vipul: Can we have an overarching example or use case to drive the documents.
17:53:48 <sandro> Vipul: would it make sense to have an over-arching use case to drive the documents?
17:53:50 <bijan> IanH: We do have a requirements document deliverable
17:53:55 <alanr> Added http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Issues and sidebar link under inputs: Issues
17:54:17 <alanr> q+
17:54:21 <ekw> Language design decisions should be the responsibility of the WG
17:54:55 <bijan> ... but requirements can eat up a lot of time so we can't presume that the other documents can wait on them.
17:55:15 <bijan> ... any objections?
17:55:45 <vipul> q+
17:56:03 <sandro> ack alanr 
17:56:08 <bijan> alanr: I agree with Ian that we have a clear set of goals for the language extensions (originally motivated from OWLED), but don't want to close off new use cases. Given the timeline, if you think there's something missing based on a use case
17:56:16 <AnneCregan> I think we have a very clear set of goals and we don't need to mill around considering requirements and use cases
17:56:17 <bijan> ... please bring it to group attention
17:56:37 <bijan> q+
17:57:01 <sandro> ack vipul 
17:57:03 <Rinke> +1 to alanr's remarks
17:57:12 <bijan> what's the construct?
17:57:32 <cbock> Logging off
17:57:41 <Zakim> -Conrad_Bock
17:58:04 <bijan> Can we defer some of these discussion to the mailing list?
17:58:14 <bijan> Oh I see
17:58:36 <bijan> vipul: Perhaps a table mapping constructs to use cases? I.e., how each cosntruct meet the use cases
17:59:06 <bijan> alanr: A user guide could incorporate that. It would be a good idea to have this connectability in the guide.
17:59:49 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:59:49 <Zakim> Bijan should no longer be muted
18:00:42 <bijan> zakim, mute me
18:00:42 <Zakim> Bijan should now be muted
18:00:42 <alanr> opinion: #2
18:01:16 <alanr> +1
18:01:25 <bijan> Bijan: Are subgroups "merely" editors or do they advance the technical work
18:01:27 <alanr> q- alanr
18:01:34 <alanr> q- bijan
18:01:35 <bijan> IanH: function as traditional editors
18:01:50 <AnneCregan> Just clarify - I'm open to new use cases if needed
18:01:54 <alanr> do we need a resolution here?
18:01:59 <bijan> So, we use the traditional proposal mechanism via email?
18:02:01 <alanr> anne: yess
18:02:33 <alanr> +2
18:02:45 <JeffP> +1 to keep it an hour
18:02:57 <pfps> +1 do all decisions be made by the full group, but I expect that the subgroups will be ironing out details that will be ratified later
18:03:01 <Zakim> -Joanne_Luciano
18:03:05 <bijan> I think that only an hour is hopeless
18:03:31 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
18:03:31 <Zakim> Bijan should no longer be muted
18:03:32 <achille> +1 do all decisions be made by the full group
18:03:57 <bijan> zakim, mute me
18:03:57 <Zakim> Bijan should now be muted
18:04:18 <alanr> q?
18:04:39 <alanr> close item 13
18:04:43 <alanr> close item 14
18:04:58 <bijan> IanH: There are a bunch of WG to coordinate with. People should look at the related groups in the charter and people should see if they are interested to be the contact person for select group
18:05:37 <pfps> there is supposed to be a new RIF BLD draft out this week.  I'm planning on looking at it.  Are we going to make review of this doc a part of this WG's process?
18:05:47 <bijan> alanr: The role of the contact person is to monitor the target group activity for things which might affect owl and informing them about things from owl that might affect them.
18:06:21 <bijan> alanr: Reviewing the RIF BLD should be an activity of owlwg. Peter would be a good person to do that.
18:06:39 <pfps> OK by me, as I'm going to read it anyway, but they might not like what I have to say.  :-)
18:06:45 <bijan> q+
18:07:05 <pfps> I'm also willing to produce a personal review and a WG review.
18:07:21 <bijan> sandro: Whenever we do a review as a group, we generally delegate but they can publish that individually or as a group. A group decision is needed for the latter
18:07:33 <bijan> IanH: Everyone is personally welcome to review RIF
18:07:42 <pfps> Ask the people who were in RDF Core.  :-)
18:08:02 <alanr> PROPOSED there will be WG Review of RIF BLD
18:08:14 <bijan> sandro: It's a lot of wg work to do a group review
18:08:29 <bijan> IanH: but given the importance of the relationahip it's worth doing a group review
18:08:35 <bijan> q- that was what I was going to say
18:08:39 <bijan> q-
18:08:40 <alanr> close item 15
18:08:58 <bijan> RESOLVED there will be WG review of RIF BLD
18:09:20 <bijan> ACTION: pfps to produce a draft review of the RIF BLD
18:09:35 <pfps> but it might be a good idea to get our dibs in so that there might be changes before publication.
18:09:52 <bijan> sandro: publishing morotoriam meants that the BLD will not formally published for a few weeks
18:09:56 <alanr> +1 to pfps dibs
18:10:21 <alanr> q?
18:10:33 <sandro> ACTION: Peter to Review the RIF BLD draft and report back to OWL-WG for discussion
18:10:57 <alanr> postpone item 16
18:11:09 <alanr> close item 16 take it up next week
18:11:18 <alanr> close item 16
18:11:21 <sandro> sorry, Bijan!    
18:11:30 <ivan> +1
18:11:31 <alanr> close item 17
18:11:31 <sandro> (I think just manually fix it later)
18:11:33 <ekw> I will attend FTF1
18:11:35 <pfps> I'll be there
18:11:36 <ivan> yes
18:11:37 <JeffP> possible
18:11:37 <bijan> Ok
18:11:38 <alanr> f2f yes
18:11:38 <sandro> +1 mancheseter
18:11:40 <bmotik> yes
18:11:41 <Doug> sorry 50-50
18:11:41 <Rinke> yes (most likely)
18:11:41 <AnneCregan> No
18:11:45 <bijan> bernardo and bijan are
18:11:46 <Tommie> regrettably no
18:11:48 <Carsten> yes
18:11:49 <vipul> No, Sorry!
18:11:50 <MarkusK> yes
18:11:52 <stoil> possible
18:11:53 <achille> not sure yet
18:12:10 <alanr> who is stoil?
18:12:20 <JeffP> Giorgos Stoilos
18:12:32 <pfps> you can set up a poll (vote?)
18:12:39 <alanr> close item 18
18:12:45 <alanr> close item 19
18:13:09 <bijan> IanH: Objectives of the f2f: Time is pressing (again). F2F can get a lot of work done.
18:13:12 <bijan> q+
18:13:43 <bijan> alanr: A big concern is getting everyone up to speed technically on all aspects of the documents.
18:13:59 <bijan> ... so we should find out how much tutorialness is needed
18:14:59 <bijan> ... an example, I didn't understand declarations until talking to people. How many issues are like that? How much prep should we do
18:15:32 <bijan> IanH: People should feel free to ask questions on the mailing list, esp. if there's something they don't understand.
18:15:38 <bijan> no
18:15:40 <ivan> ivan has joined #owl
18:15:42 <alanr> close item 20
18:15:50 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
18:15:50 <Zakim> Bijan should no longer be muted
18:15:55 <alanr> q?
18:16:34 <bijan> zakim, mute me
18:16:34 <Zakim> Bijan should now be muted
18:16:43 <pfps> +1 to having some documents for discussion at F2F1
18:17:14 <Doug> good!
18:17:15 <bijan> Bijan: Are we aiming for FWD before the f2f or decide there? what's the publication schedule.
18:17:28 <bijan> IanH: we'll take that up next week. I'll add it on the agenda.
18:17:37 <ivan> q+
18:17:41 <bijan> q-
18:17:45 <bijan> q-
18:17:46 <sandro> ack bijan 
18:17:52 <sandro> ack ivan
18:17:57 <bijan> zakim, mute me
18:17:57 <Zakim> Bijan should now be muted
18:17:57 <alanr> minutes to be posted at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/index.php?title=Teleconference.2007.10.10/Minutes (even if just a link to log)
18:17:58 <sandro> zakim, mute Bijan
18:17:59 <Zakim> Bijan was already muted, sandro
18:18:26 <bijan> ivan: have the local arrangements page been updated?
18:18:35 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Manchester_F2F
18:18:40 <bijan> IanH: Yes. There is a new la page linked from the wiki
18:18:57 <JeffP> +1 bye
18:19:00 <pfps> Bye.
18:19:00 <Zakim> -Uli
18:19:03 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
18:19:03 <bmotik> bye
18:19:05 <Zakim> -Sandro
18:19:07 <Zakim> -MarkusK
18:19:07 <Doug> bye
18:19:09 <Zakim> -bmotik
18:19:10 <Zakim> -Jeff_Pan
18:19:11 <Zakim> -GiorgosStoilos
18:19:11 <Rinke> bye
18:19:14 <Zakim> -Vipul_Kashyap
18:19:15 <AnneCregan> bye
18:19:15 <Zakim> -Elisa
18:19:16 <Zakim> -Achille_Fokoue
18:19:17 <Zakim> -Doug
18:19:19 <Zakim> -Carsten
18:19:20 <Zakim> -TommieMeyer
18:19:22 <Zakim> -AnneCregan
18:19:23 <Tommie> bye
18:19:24 <Zakim> -Rinke
18:19:25 <Zakim> -pfps
18:19:36 <achille> -achille
18:19:42 <bijan> I forget what I have to do re: mintues now
18:19:44 <alanr> zakim, who is on the call?
18:19:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, IanH, alan, Bijan (muted)
18:19:44 <IanH> zakim, who is on the phone
18:19:45 <Zakim> Bijan has Bernado
18:19:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', IanH
18:19:54 <alanr> who is here?
18:20:00 <alanr> zakim, who ?
18:20:00 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, alanr.
18:20:04 <Zakim> -Bijan
18:20:09 <alanr> zakim, who is on the call?
18:20:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, IanH, alan
18:20:33 <alanr> sandro?
18:26:12 <achille> leave
18:26:24 <uli> uli has joined #owl
18:33:51 <sandro> alanr?
18:35:33 <alanr> we're on the call, but almost finished
18:35:53 <alanr> did the minutes get closed? Can you?
18:35:56 <uli> uli has joined #owl
18:37:16 <Zakim> -alan
18:37:18 <Zakim> -IanH
18:37:23 <Zakim> -Ivan
18:37:25 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
18:37:26 <Zakim> Attendees were pfps, Sandro, Ivan, +018652aaaa, +1.312.052.aabb, IanH, +49.351.4.aacc, Carsten, Vipul_Kashyap, +1.617.253.aadd, JeffP, alan, MarkusK, Doug, +1.301.975.aaee, Conrad,
18:37:31 <Zakim> ... +1.408.774.aaff, Rinke, Evan_Wallace, Achille_Fokoue, Elisa, Joanne_Luciano, Uli, AnneCregan, bmotik, TommieMeyer, +1.301.975.aagg, Conrad_Bock, Jeff_Pan, Bernado,
18:37:34 <Zakim> ... GiorgosStoilos
18:38:39 <alanr> sandro: how to create minutes?
18:40:08 <sandro> Bijan should know.
18:40:29 <sandro> run the irc log through scribe.perl.        
18:40:32 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:40:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-owl-minutes.html sandro
18:40:48 <sandro> that will do it, but then he'll want to edit it and e-mail it.    
18:41:35 <alanr> ok thanks
18:41:53 <sandro> he may want to edit the irc log first, and then run it through scribe.perl himself, either on his own machine or using http://www.w3.org/2005/02/minutes
18:51:04 <bijan> So, do I get regrets from some wikipage?
18:51:10 <bijan> or just go through the mailing list?
18:51:20 <sandro> They should be on the Agenda wiki page, at the bottom.
18:51:29 <bijan> And should I just send to the list when finished or directly to you or alan?
18:51:58 <sandro> directly to the list
18:52:21 <bijan> Do I upload it to the wiki as well?
18:52:27 <bijan> Or shall you be doing that?
18:52:54 <sandro> For now, I think we'll just link to the mail archives from the wiki.    
18:53:00 <bijan> Ok
18:53:13 <sandro> (We'll need to sort out whether/how we want to do arbitrary HTML on the wiki.)
18:53:24 <bijan> Sure
18:53:36 <bijan> But arbitrary html in the mailing list sort of bites, too
18:53:49 <bijan> ta
19:00:26 <bijan> alanr ?
19:02:39 <bijan> nm
19:04:05 <alanr> back
19:08:30 <bijan> Yeah, we need to figure out what was up with zakim
19:08:40 <bijan> there are some topics caught by scribe.pl
19:08:43 <bijan> but most are missing
19:08:59 <bijan>  
19:08:59 <bijan> 	1.	ADMIN (20 min)
19:08:59 <bijan> 	2.	Roll call
19:08:59 <bijan> 	3.	PROPOSED regular telecon time Wednesday 1300 East US
19:08:59 <bijan> 	4.	Agenda amendments
19:09:00 <bijan> 	5.	Telecons and IRC
19:09:02 <bijan> 	6.	Sub-groups to work on deliverables
19:22:29 <alanr> perhaps cut and paste irc buffer. Shall I send that to you?
19:23:24 <alanr> wtf, just sent it to you. can't hurt...
19:24:44 <alanr> continue via email. I'm signing off now
19:24:45 <bijan> Oh I have the log